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thedutchiedutch

Church erects billboard saying

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I believe from the evidences available to me that 'god" and just "belief" can cure a lot of things including pain and cancer. So, to me, the bill board tells a truth. Not the whole truth perhaps but basically a truth. There are many unexplained reasons why, and cases where, cancer goes into remission or disappears in some people. God and faith are as good a rationale as any, especially where there are also some statistical and anecdotal evidences to support this concept.

Awhile ago there was a programme on about faith healing. This is when people who claim to have the power to heal people con people out of money so they can heal people. When people didn't get better or died their answer was 'their faith wasn't strong enough'. Sound familiar?

Many people have died and been told that faith will heal them or help heal them. People have been told it will ease pain or suffering, but it doesn't. Everyone here can name people who they've known, who they're loved and cared for, that have suffered and died. Does faith help? It might, but only for a select few and it certainly doesn't work for everyone. What you're saying is again to those faith healers, that people suffer because their faith 'isn't stong enough' which isn't true.

People suffer and people feel pain and people die. That happens all the time and there's not just a switch we can flick to turn that off. I think sometimes you have a tendancy to not realise what you're saying can come off as insensitive.

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name='Beckys_Mom' timestamp='1331065550' post='4224246']

Not the truth.. It skipped the real truth and that is they still have to take their meds... IF Jesus actually cured their cancer.. Then no further cancer treatment and meds would be needed.. So the billboard was a complete lie in that sense..

Any logical person, what ever the cause of remission, would continue to take their meds. Even if only for health insurance reasons in some places. God doesnt expect us to abandon reason and rationality.
So many non religious and non believers get saved from Cancer too... I guess it means you do not really need faith to get help....[/b]
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all are helped by god, but only some recognise this, or maybe some are helped by good fortune and pure chance.

But if god tells you he is about to remove your cancer and then does so, it is probable that there was some cause and effect.

And, anyway, its primarily about belief and the power of belief. Belief works both ways. It can cure cancer and many other human conditions, or it can attribute a cure to god. It depends on how "you" see the world and "your" relationship with god.

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Any logical person, what ever the cause of remission, would continue to take their meds.

Any logical person who knows what a miracle actually is.. and knows that even in the bible when Jesus us said to have cured others.. they didn't need to keep up treatments ..> Then Any logical person will know that if a Church sticks up plain and simple --> JESUS CURES CANCER... Then obviously it coming from Jesus will be a miracle and not still require meds... FACT

Only those in biased denial and cannot comprehend that fact will ignore it Just to promote a faith.. It is a sad and illogical attempt and a lie

IF It read Jesus will help you with faith and medical help.. then that might fly, but it is still just a belief and nothing more..

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe all are helped by god, but only some recognise this, or maybe some are helped by good fortune and pure chance.

There is no maybe not about it... It is just sheer ignorance to suggest so.... If they are proven by fact to have been aved then it is a fact and it is tough on the over the top religious that cannot take it.. .Fact And it would be ignorant to assume they never have been saved... and arrogant to boot

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name='shadowhive' timestamp='1331065769' post='4224251']

Awhile ago there was a programme on about faith healing. This is when people who claim to have the power to heal people con people out of money so they can heal people. When people didn't get better or died their answer was 'their faith wasn't strong enough'. Sound familiar?

The programme sounds familiar. The fact tha tmoney was nvolved should have bee warning enough.

Faith can heal but it doesnot always do so. However faith can ALWAYS produce positive outcomes in people even those facing certain death and those going through great pain and loss. Thats an established psychological and medical fact.

Many people have died and been told that faith will heal them or help heal them. People have been told it will ease pain or suffering, but it doesn't. Everyone here can name people who they've known, who they're loved and cared for, that have suffered and died. Does faith help? It might, but only for a select few and it certainly doesn't work for everyone. What you're saying is again to those faith healers, that people suffer because their faith 'isn't stong enough' which isn't true.

FAith is a state of mind. If powerful enough it can and will influence the physical pain felt. It certainly will change the basic psychology and mental state of a person, and so indeed, enough faith will make you feel better.

Whether that is realistic or good is another matter in peoples' minds. Its not a religious principle but rather a psychological one, summed up in "mind over matter." Humans can chose how to respond to anything but usually respond as they have been conditioned to do .

People suffer and people feel pain and people die. That happens all the time and there's not just a switch we can flick to turn that off. I think sometimes you have a tendancy to not realise what you're saying can come off as insensitive.
Actually there is such a switch. It exists in the rational control part of the human brain when the brain matures and is why we can control all our emtoional responses. I and other australian teachers teach the use of this switcht to children. Its about recognising and controlling emotional states. We use it to preent anger, bullying, abuse etc., but it can be applied to all. No human needs to feel helpless inthe face of their emotions

Yes to some I might appear insensitive i am just honest and realistic. I do not like to see anyone suffer unneccessarily, and i can guarnatee they do not have to.

Again this is not religious, but medical science. However religion offers an easy and effective way of gaining the same result without years of learning training and discipline.

I, like spock, find uncontrolled human emotions to be the greatest threat to individuals and our species.

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Posted (edited)

The programme sounds familiar. The fact tha tmoney was nvolved should have bee warning enough.

Faith can heal but it doesnot always do so. However faith can ALWAYS produce positive outcomes in people even those facing certain death and those going through great pain and loss. Thats an established psychological and medical fact.

I dunno if it was shown outside of the uk, but similar things have been done so... Yeah money should bhave been, but people will do anything to save their loved ones, which can lead to such things being taken seriously.

It depends how you define 'positive outcomes' doesn't it? It can make people feel more positive, but does it make any difference to their condition? Well there's a problem there, because mst illnesses have a certain pecentage of people urviving them anyway. So if someone is among that lucky few that do survive and they had faith, their faith automatically becomes their reason for it. Not the doctors, surgeons or medicines, but faith.

I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons that was on recently. A bear had wandered into town, the first and only one ever to do so, so the town overreacts: they set up this 'bear patrol' to keep bears out. They claim it was sucessful for no bears being in town... even though in all the years the town existed only one bear had ever entered it.

My point is that when faith is seen to help, it is automatically the only thing that did help, which isn't necessarily true: much like the bear patrol was given the credit for keeping away bears.

FAith is a state of mind. If powerful enough it can and will influence the physical pain felt. It certainly will change the basic psychology and mental state of a person, and so indeed, enough faith will make you feel better.

Whether that is realistic or good is another matter in peoples' minds. Its not a religious principle but rather a psychological one, summed up in "mind over matter." Humans can chose how to respond to anything but usually respond as they have been conditioned to do .

Perhaps, but I somehow doubt that it eliminates pain completely.

It depends completely on the ituation. People are individuals and you can't know how they will react to something. Most people have emotions and feelings about things and sometimes, no offense, you can come off as rather detatched, disspassionate and cold because you've decided that certain emotions are bad.

Actually there is such a switch. It exists in the rational control part of the human brain when the brain matures and is why we can control all our emtoional responses. I and other australian teachers teach the use of this switcht to children. Its about recognising and controlling emotional states. We use it to preent anger, bullying, abuse etc., but it can be applied to all. No human needs to feel helpless inthe face of their emotions

Yes to some I might appear insensitive i am just honest and realistic. I do not like to see anyone suffer unneccessarily, and i can guarnatee they do not have to.

Again this is not religious, but medical science. However religion offers an easy and effective way of gaining the same result without years of learning training and discipline.

I, like spock, find uncontrolled human emotions to be the greatest threat to individuals and our species.

Everyone can have a degree of self contol and must use to use it. Most people are capable of doing such a thing (after all we don't kill everyone that makes us mad or hurts us) but it's still an important thing to learn.

However when it comes to pain? I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.

Can religion do those things too? Maybe, but it shouldn't be marketed as the only way. After all, faith alone won't save you if you refuse necessary medical treatment. I think that's the obvious danger here, that faith can make people stupid and that should be avoided.

I also think there's another danger: that the faithful that believe such things can, intentionally or not, belittle the suffering and pain others go through and say things like 'oh you're suffering because you don't have enough faith'. It comes off as insensitive and also makes out like you think you're better than others because you don't 'feel pain'. Whic, in turn, futhers their pain and helps no one.

So can people be empowered, sure. Is labelling those that aren't as not 'faithful enough' the right thing to do? Not in a million years.

Do you feel happiness? Joy? Love? Cmpassion? Those things are all emotions too, ae you so quick to discard them too?

Edited by shadowhive

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name='shadowhive' timestamp='1331069844' post='4224328']

I dunno if it was shown outside of the uk, but similar things have been done so... Yeah money should bhave been, but people will do anything to save their loved ones, which can lead to such things being taken seriously.

It depends how you define 'positive outcomes' doesn't it? It can make people feel more positive, but does it make any difference to their condition? Well there's a problem there, because mst illnesses have a certain pecentage of people urviving them anyway. So if someone is among that lucky few that do survive and they had faith, their faith automatically becomes their reason for it. Not the doctors, surgeons or medicines, but faith.

The most basic reality of life is that what counts is how we feel, and intellectualise, our existence, NOT what that existence actually is. So it IS how we feel that is all important, not how we are. I could be locked up in prison for life, or dying of cancer, and be happy just by chosing to be, because how we feel is how we chose to feel (unless we have an illness of the mind which programmes a chemical imbalance we can't overcome)

The true benefit of faith is not in keeping us alive, but how we feel about life, both withour hearts and with our minds. Those who die still benfit from faith while they are alive. And because i dont believe in an after life, i think that is the mot beneficial/realistic outcome of faith.

I'm reminded of an episode of The Simpsons that was on recently. A bear had wandered into town, the first and only one ever to do so, so the town overreacts: they set up this 'bear patrol' to keep bears out. They claim it was sucessful for no bears being in town... even though in all the years the town existed only one bear had ever entered it.

My point is that when faith is seen to help, it is automatically the only thing that did help, which isn't necessarily true: much like the bear patrol was given the credit for keeping away bears.

Or the bear patrol actualy did keep the bears away. I mean, faith really does keep away fearss lonliness, stressors, suffering, grief etc

Perhaps, but I somehow doubt that it eliminates pain completely.
No. I haven't found so, But it is very effective. For example i have had a tooth decay and die off with the pain associated with that, and never had to take a panadol etc., the whole time, because i just "set aside' the pain in my mind and disassociated it from my mind. That is not quite the same thing as faith. It is a learned mental discipline but faith has the same efect and the effect is measurable in scientific studies. I have had a person "lay hands" on me, and take away ALL pain from a torn shoulder ligament. one moment I was having red and black flashes and nearly passing out, the next i was without noticeable pain.
It depends completely on the ituation. People are individuals and you can't know how they will react to something. Most people have emotions and feelings about things and sometimes, no offense, you can come off as rather detatched, disspassionate and cold because you've decided that certain emotions are bad.
I think from science tha tbiologically all humans are pretty much the same I know tha twe learn emotionalresponses form a number of studies such as psychology and education. So I have no reaosn to think that other peole are not jus tlike me they can control physicl and emotional repsonses quite effectively.

Yes I know how i come over :devil: I learned how to control emotions as a child for very good reasons. It has served me very well both nmy profession and in my life But i also live with a wife of similar temperamentt to whom logic and reason is far more important as a basis for action than emotion. But i care so much that i could not function if i allowed my natural emotuons free control. I would kill a parent who abused their child I would kil a person who bullied or atacked meor one I loved Or i would give everthing I owned, away to someone who was starving; if i allowed my emotions to control me .It is because humans are creatures of emotional response that we must learn to control them.

Everyone can have a degree of self contol and must use to use it. Most people are capable of doing such a thing (after all we don't kill everyone that makes us mad or hurts us) but it's still an important thing to learn.
That is what I am saying. And the more we live in a modern society, where we are not otherwise closely connected to those around us, the more critical this becomes.
However when it comes to pain? I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.

I had my chest cut open, my heart taken out and 3 blocked arteries replaced. My chest/ribcage was then stapled together with metal staples which remain there 8 years later For the first few days I was on oxycodeine/morphine based drugs But i refused to take it because it was causing halucinations, and i like to be in control of my mind. So i turned to mental control and also the presence of god within me. i was able to reduce the pain to a point where i could manage with normal painkillers And, as above, i never have to take any painkilers for any pain less than something of that severity . I havent had a pain killer in the 8 years since that operation despite wha tshuld have been quite considerable pain form various sources. Again, I dont think I am special. Anyone can do this..

Can religion do those things too? Maybe, but it shouldn't be marketed as the only way. After all, faith alone won't save you if you refuse necessary medical treatment. I think that's the obvious danger here, that faith can make people stupid and that should be avoided.
There is no cure for stupidity. The bill board didnt say "drugs dont cure cancer" they just said "jesus does"

I believe that to be true and have actually seen it hapen. But not just jesus. Any form of faith whic is complete enough can heal an illness like cancer because of how it can transform our physical properties in the body.

I also think there's another danger: that the faithful that believe such things can, intentionally or not,

That part of this sentence is true, and a good thing

belittle the suffering and pain others go through and say things like 'oh you're suffering because you don't have enough faith'.

This is not. Faith works in belief. A person with complete faith may die, but they will die happy. A person with absolute faith may be cured psychosmatically, and physically, because of that belief, although this is not even common. But if the belief is not 'total' and absolute, then the body may not react to it.

So actually it is true that peole suufer 9certainly) and ma ypossibly die because theor faith is not adequate Faith will remove sufferig (which is not pain or innate emotional reaction, but how we RESPOND to the pain and grief etc.0

Aboriginal people once "pointed the bone" at others, who then died from belief. But strangely so did some people who cliamed not to believe. MAybe they had just enough belief to be efected by the psychology of the curse

It comes off as insensitive and also makes out like you think you're better than others because you don't 'feel pain'. Whic, in turn, futhers their pain and helps no one.
No one HAS to feel pain. If they want to fair enoguh but who would want to. How many people DO NOT take a painkiller when they are in pain?

Emotional pain is the same. One does not have to feel it unless one choses to. Now. there might be good reasons to feel a certain level of both physical andd emotional pain. But not debilitating, life wrecking, draining, hurting, suffering, pain that goes on for months and sometimes years..

So can people be empowered, sure. Is labelling those that aren't as not 'faithful enough' the right thing to do? Not in a million years.
Ok. Say they aren't self disciplined enough Lots of things in life can be achieved but they dont come free Empowerment comes at a cost, whether that cost is; work, disipline, effort, etc or just surrendering to the power of god via faith and allowing him to take away all pain and sufering and elace it with peace..
Do you feel happiness? Joy? Love? Cmpassion? Those things are all emotions too, ae you so quick to discard them too?

You bet your sweet bippy, i feel them; and rather than discard them i use the same strategies to fill my life with all of those. God can do this also, but an atheist who works hard at it can live a life of joy, love, wonder, and compassion. They are free physical gifts from god, but without god one has to earn them through study, work, effort, discipline etc.

Youve probably never met such a happy joyful and compassionate (as in caring about people) person as I am :devil: My students keep asking me what drug I am on, I am so happy. Like ths afternoon I made up rap tunes/lyrics for each student in my English class and sung them to them. I say to them that it is a drug freely available to all. The joy of life.

i LOVE life, people, work, the world, and myself.

I wish everyone could be as happy and contented and interconnected with their world and the people around them as I am. But i cant force them to be. I can only tell them it is possible if they so desire.

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To get back to the original issue - the church in question has obviously listened to those that were offended by it's billboard, and have removed the offending quote.

They've replaced it with:

"JESUS HEALS EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE"

There. That's much better!

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Well...I suppose, yeah. At least it is general enough to not be mistaken as a particularly strong claim of anything.

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To get back to the original issue - the church in question has obviously listened to those that were offended by it's billboard, and have removed the offending quote.

They've replaced it with:

"JESUS HEALS EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE"

There. That's much better!

So where is Jesus when He is wanted ?.I saw a small boy die of leukaemia in a hospital,I think we all prayed for his survival including nurses doctors and family,but to no avail,yet my son who had the same thing in the next bed survived,Who or what decides who shall live and who shall die ?.I would put that down to Fate not Jesus,I guess that I am agnostic....Dont get me wrong Jesus was a good guy,but he lived 2000 years ago,and maybe He did heal people but He doesnt do that anymore as he is long gone,and if He ever did come back He would not like what he saw....

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I doubt there's such a switch. It's easy to say 'Oh I can't feel any pain' but I'm sure that you'd feel it at some point, regardless of your objections. Are you really saying you've never felt pain from a stubbed toe or when you've bashed into smething by mistake? Would you feel no pain if I (not that I would) shot or burned you? Like with self control a disiplined mind can diminish pain, but not remove it entirely.

I have to respond to this, but not out of animosity. There is indeed a switch in the brain. It can be learned to switch it off, it is how monks do it to withstand pain like immolating themselves in fire. With burn victims who have had such severe burns to where the nerves are burned and they end up being in pain for the rest of their lives, doctors will sever the pain receptor in their brain. Otherwise the victim will scream for the rest of their lives in pain until they either go insane, or their brain turns off the receptor on its own. This receptor is why drunks can take damage and not feel it, or people high on drugs. Those kind of things dull the receptors in your brain. All medical fact.

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To get back to the original issue - the church in question has obviously listened to those that were offended by it's billboard, and have removed the offending quote.

They've replaced it with:

"JESUS HEALS EVERY SICKNESS AND EVERY DISEASE"

There. That's much better!

Heh, yeah, that's much better. Now we don't need doctors, or medicine, because magic can heal it.

Sorry, but that is actually much much worse.

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No, I can't agree that it is worse. No one is going to see a general claim like that and consider it literal (well, some will, but they are going to be the ones who didn't have any doubts on the matter to begin with). The original was too specific, which is why it was so offensive.

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Heh, yeah, that's much better. Now we don't need doctors, or medicine, because magic can heal it.

Sorry, but that is actually much much worse.

I hear what you are saying.. If it read Jesus cures all illness and diseases.. then every firm believer may take it on board and think, lets bring our loved ones here who are really ill including ourselves... Medical treatment could well be avoided..

When I think of the amount of news articles read on here alone that speak of heavy believers thinking it was ok to try and pray the illness away with no medical treatment, and the illness were not cancer, they varied... People still suffered and died as a result...This has opened a number of times

So it doesn't matter what the medical condition is, if people are encouraged to use a spiritual form for healing, they just may take it...

The billboard ( if they still want to promote their saviour ) should read - JESUS CAN AID YOU IN YOUR TIMES OF ILLNESS.

That to me is a fair statement to believers .. It is not making false promises of curing all diseases and illnesses

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Heh, yeah, that's much better. Now we don't need doctors, or medicine, because magic can heal it.

Sorry, but that is actually much much worse.

It is worse. Less offensive (maybe), but worse.

Note to self: sarcasm doesn't work on the internet!

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should read - JESUS CAN AID YOU IN YOUR TIMES OF ILLNESS.

That to me is a fair statement to believers .. It is not making false promises of curing all diseases and illnesses

What she said. :tu:

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"Dichloroacetic acid cures cancer." True or false? Legitimate comment to put up on a bill board or not?

"Radio (or chemo ) therapy cures cancer ." True or false? Legitimate statement to put up on billboard ?

What about if, and when, they do not succeed in curing a cancer. What about if and when they raise false hopes and create bitter disappointments in patients and loved ones? Is it then false advertising, or a lie?

Or, as with the initial bill board, are they all relative truths.

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"True" and "False" are binary answers and only good in regards to the absolute existence of something (unless, of course, we are referring to Philosophy, which has no place in detailed questions about medical treatment). Either something is or it is, either you are pregnant, or you are not, either God exist, or it doesn't.

Medical treatment is not a binary equation. There is no "It either works, or it does not." about it. When you talk about treatments (and really, it is a good rule for any treatment, not just medical) and you get absolutes, you need to see that as a red flag. The question is not whether a treatment is a cure, true or false. The real question is whether a treatment is medically valid or not. The next question is what the probability of it curing your specific ailment is.

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"True" and "False" are binary answers and only good in regards to the absolute existence of something (unless, of course, we are referring to Philosophy, which has no place in detailed questions about medical treatment). Either something is or it is, either you are pregnant, or you are not, either God exist, or it doesn't.

Medical treatment is not a binary equation. There is no "It either works, or it does not." about it. When you talk about treatments (and really, it is a good rule for any treatment, not just medical) and you get absolutes, you need to see that as a red flag. The question is not whether a treatment is a cure, true or false. The real question is whether a treatment is medically valid or not. The next question is what the probability of it curing your specific ailment is.

I guess that is part of the point i was trying to make. It is not a lie that chemo therapy cures cancer but it is only a qualified truth. Likewise, in my opinion, it is not a lie (Or even misleading) to say that jesus(or faith) can cure cancer. It is also a qualified truth. Yet people get so upset by one statement, and not the other.

All medical treatments raise hopes, and create expectations. They do not all/always fulfill those hopes or met those expectations. Yet, when drug or radiation treatment fails, people dont go and blame the doctors or the treatment. ( If they are capable of rational thinking at that point)

Anything which works is "medically valid." One does not have to understand why it works, to make it valid.That is a bonus.

Edited by Mr Walker

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I guess that is part of the point i was trying to make. It is not a lie that chemo therapy cures cancer but it is only a qualified truth. Likewise, in my opinion, it is not a lie (Or even misleading) to say that jesus(or faith) can cure cancer. It is also a qualified truth. Yet people get so upset by one statement, and not the other.

All medical treatments raise hopes, and create expectations. They do not all/always fulfill those hopes or met those expectations. Yet, when drug or radiation treatment fails, people dont go and blame the doctors or the treatment. ( If they are capable of rational thinking at that point)

Anything which works is "medically valid." One does not have to understand why it works, to make it valid.That is a bonus.

Actually, saying jesus(faith) is a qualified truth, is actually far from being qualified truth. Medicine has empirical and tested effects that aid in the curing of illnesses. Faith in a magical, untestable, unempirical, entity cannot in any way be considered quailified truth. A comparative would be someone that takes 2 glasses of water from a putrid filth ridden pond, one gets ran through purifiers, and treatments to become clean, the other glass is simply blessed by a holy man. The one blessed will do nothing but make the person drinking it ill, but the one that was cleaned though empirical and testable means will nourish the person. The blessed one is factually bad, the cleaned one is factually good. Obviously this is a most simplicitic visual of this, but it is accurate for what one that follows the kind of belief a sign like that presents. Believing in magic and encouraging such things when it comes to medicine does not factually aid in the physical human condition. That sign has absolutely zero beneficial value in medicine. And that is not opinion. It is no more an opinion than someone who would get smeared on the train tracks from an oncoming train.

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Actually, saying jesus(faith) is a qualified truth, is actually far from being qualified truth. Medicine has empirical and tested effects that aid in the curing of illnesses. Faith in a magical, untestable, unempirical, entity cannot in any way be considered quailified truth. A comparative would be someone that takes 2 glasses of water from a putrid filth ridden pond, one gets ran through purifiers, and treatments to become clean, the other glass is simply blessed by a holy man. The one blessed will do nothing but make the person drinking it ill, but the one that was cleaned though empirical and testable means will nourish the person. The blessed one is factually bad, the cleaned one is factually good. Obviously this is a most simplicitic visual of this, but it is accurate for what one that follows the kind of belief a sign like that presents. Believing in magic and encouraging such things when it comes to medicine does not factually aid in the physical human condition. That sign has absolutely zero beneficial value in medicine. And that is not opinion. It is no more an opinion than someone who would get smeared on the train tracks from an oncoming train.

I was replying particularty to aquatus's comments about true/false dichotomies and their artificiality.

However, there is plenty of scientific and empirical evidence that faith and belief does effect /influence both well being, and recovery from illness. Much of this has been done in the last 5 years and the body of scientific evidence is mounting. The two systems of science and belief/faith should not be seen as in opposition. They both work. Sure a clean plate might prevent physical illness but a person can get physically ill worrying about eating from a non-blessed plate, even sicken and die from it. That is the nature of human belief. And it works in reverse. Belief/ faith helps recovery from physical illnesses and ameliorates their symptoms.

You are wrong about modern medical, and more particulalry modern scientific, opinion. I know that from my own dealings with medical people, from cardiac specialists down to general practitioners, and from reading the scientific literature. Only an "ignorant" or uninformed modern doctor will discount the power and healing capacity of a person's belief and faith; and not utilise it in their professional advice. The power of faith is an absolute historical truth in healing, and incresaingly it is a scientifically validated and empirically backed form of truth also. Belief faith alone, if powerful enough, has been shown to be capapvble of killing a person, and or, making them very physically ill, and of curing them of many illnesses. Faith alters the bilogical chemistry of a body, perhaps by releasing certin natural chemicals associated with peace and tranquility. Or perhaps buy acting as a modifier on the receptor or transmitter cells in our body.

It reduces a persons percetion of pain considerably, and measurably. After all, stress can kill by biochemical means, so why should not a release from worry and stress help to cure. :devil: .

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I was replying particularty to aquatus's comments about true/false dichotomies and their artificiality.

However, there is plenty of scientific and empirical evidence that faith and belief does effect /influence both well being, and recovery from illness. Much of this has been done in the last 5 years and the body of scientific evidence is mounting. The two systems of science and belief/faith should not be seen as in opposition. They both work. Sure a clean plate might prevent physical illness but a person can get physically ill worrying about eating from a non-blessed plate, even sicken and die from it. That is the nature of human belief. And it works in reverse. Belief/ faith helps recovery from physical illnesses and ameliorates their symptoms.

You are wrong about modern medical, and more particulalry modern scientific, opinion. I know that from my own dealings with medical people, from cardiac specialists down to general practitioners, and from reading the scientific literature. Only an "ignorant" or uninformed modern doctor will discount the power and healing capacity of a person's belief and faith; and not utilise it in their professional advice. The power of faith is an absolute historical truth in healing, and incresaingly it is a scientifically validated and empirically backed form of truth also. Belief faith alone, if powerful enough, has been shown to be capapvble of killing a person, and or, making them very physically ill, and of curing them of many illnesses. Faith alters the bilogical chemistry of a body, perhaps by releasing certin natural chemicals associated with peace and tranquility. Or perhaps buy acting as a modifier on the receptor or transmitter cells in our body.

It reduces a persons percetion of pain considerably, and measurably. After all, stress can kill by biochemical means, so why should not a release from worry and stress help to cure. :devil: .

You're confusing faith in a magical being with the ability of the body to do amazing things, like produce healing enzymes via signals from the brain. Faith in a magical being does not initself do anything. The belief causes the persons brain to send signals to the many parts of the body to do things they don't normally do. This is what is called the placebo effect. You get the same effect from a person that believes a magic toad can heal them from spitting on them. That still does not make belief in a magical being valid. Sorry, but what I said is not opinion, but empirical, testable, fact.

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I was replying particularty to aquatus's comments about true/false dichotomies and their artificiality.

However, there is plenty of scientific and empirical evidence that faith and belief does effect /influence both well being, and recovery from illness. Much of this has been done in the last 5 years and the body of scientific evidence is mounting. The two systems of science and belief/faith should not be seen as in opposition. They both work. Sure a clean plate might prevent physical illness but a person can get physically ill worrying about eating from a non-blessed plate, even sicken and die from it. That is the nature of human belief. And it works in reverse. Belief/ faith helps recovery from physical illnesses and ameliorates their symptoms.

You are wrong about modern medical, and more particulalry modern scientific, opinion. I know that from my own dealings with medical people, from cardiac specialists down to general practitioners, and from reading the scientific literature. Only an "ignorant" or uninformed modern doctor will discount the power and healing capacity of a person's belief and faith; and not utilise it in their professional advice. The power of faith is an absolute historical truth in healing, and incresaingly it is a scientifically validated and empirically backed form of truth also. Belief faith alone, if powerful enough, has been shown to be capapvble of killing a person, and or, making them very physically ill, and of curing them of many illnesses. Faith alters the bilogical chemistry of a body, perhaps by releasing certin natural chemicals associated with peace and tranquility. Or perhaps buy acting as a modifier on the receptor or transmitter cells in our body.

It reduces a persons percetion of pain considerably, and measurably. After all, stress can kill by biochemical means, so why should not a release from worry and stress help to cure. :devil: .

Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I thought most of these types of studies done were to look at the power of a positive attitude and not specifically at a religious faith. I'm not saying that faith wasn't a factor in some of the subjects' positive attitudes, but what of those who don't follow religion or any higher being? I'm sure their positive attitude played a role in their healing process, right? Like I said though, if this isn't correct please let me know!

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Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I thought most of these types of studies done were to look at the power of a positive attitude and not specifically at a religious faith. I'm not saying that faith wasn't a factor in some of the subjects' positive attitudes, but what of those who don't follow religion or any higher being? I'm sure their positive attitude played a role in their healing process, right? Like I said though, if this isn't correct please let me know!

Thank you :yes:

That's what I was trying to get across. The mind is a truly powerful thing.

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You're confusing faith in a magical being with the ability of the body to do amazing things, like produce healing enzymes via signals from the brain. Faith in a magical being does not initself do anything. The belief causes the persons brain to send signals to the many parts of the body to do things they don't normally do. This is what is called the placebo effect. You get the same effect from a person that believes a magic toad can heal them from spitting on them. That still does not make belief in a magical being valid. Sorry, but what I said is not opinion, but empirical, testable, fact.

No iam not confusing the two. IT IS the "faith" which produces the enzymes etc. IT is a state of mind which reduces pain. These ARE empirical facts. Scientific medical studies showed that belief can reduce the amount of pain a person feels/experiences by up to 50%

Wha t is a placebo but an effect generated by belief. I never said it was supernatural just that it works. Have faith and you can fel 50% less pain and also reduce your risk of heart attack because reducing stress is empirically shown to reduce the risk of heart attack.

So far no such linkage has been proven with cancer. But because of the way our mind/body interface works it is not inconceivable. Cancer has many triggers and many things can cause it to just stop. But faith /belief certainly affects how people feel about having cancer, how they deal with it the amount of depression /anxiety and stress they suffer , and how they face up to living and dying with it.

HAving a belief /faith and dying of cancer is infinitely preferable to having no such faith and dying of cancer, because the faith will affect all other elements of how we live our last year or so including our emotionaland psychological health..

And, in general, there are many studies to show that both a religious lifestyle and a faith/belief increases a human lifespan by around 10 years, compared with a "similar" person without religious connection or faith. This would indicate that faith and religious observance acts in some way as a preventative power against many of the illnesses and diseases of old age. Cancer is notably one of those diseases.

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Correct me if I'm wrong please, but I thought most of these types of studies done were to look at the power of a positive attitude and not specifically at a religious faith. I'm not saying that faith wasn't a factor in some of the subjects' positive attitudes, but what of those who don't follow religion or any higher being? I'm sure their positive attitude played a role in their healing process, right? Like I said though, if this isn't correct please let me know!

Yes all forms of "faith" work. There was one notable study where a man reported that his "panadol" worked more effectively than a morphine based drug on very severe pain. That was physically impossible. The doctors concluded that he was telling the truth, but because he had more faith in the panadol type drug, he actually felt less pain using it than using the much more powerful morphine based drugm which chemically should have blocked the pain much better.

I have experienced the same thing myself. After a triple bypass surgery, I cut back from oxycodeine to normal painkillers, within a couple of days, by controlling the pain mentally, and using "faith." I did this knowing precisely what i was doing and how it worked, but even so it worked very effectively.

But religious faith is more habitual, more sustained, and more ingrained in people, than most other forms of hope or belief. And so religious faith works especially well.

It is much hareder to generate and sustain the degree of positive thinking required to minimise pain or prevent stress, without an external reason to do this, but it is possible.

A belief in god (or god's physical presence in and around a person, which a person of faith can see feel and respond to,) acts immediately, permanently, and effectively. You can feel the power of god enter you, and the pain ebb away. It requires no mental effort or self discipline; and so, for most people, it is the easiest and simplest way to utilise the power of faith.

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