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moundbuilder

100 Prehistoric Sites in Ohio Revealed

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Posted (edited)

After 13 years of fieldwork, most of the mound and earthwork sites that have been "address restricted" are now made available for the public to explore. The key to preservation is to lift this veil of secrecy that has been imposed. It is also of importance to know the basics of the religion in which these works were constructed. A religion that was dedicated to the un father and the Moon or Earth Mother, and the balance of these powers that were displayed at the earthwork sites. The great thing about these sites is that they are free to visit and explore, except for Fort Ancient.Many of these sites have been photographed for the first time

Edited by moundbuilder

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I like that these sites are being opened to the public (so long as serious archeological work is not impaired), but I don't particularly buy into the web-sites point of view about them (giants, etc)...

We have an ancient site here in Oklahoma, The Spiro Mounds which - while not as impressive as some of those in the Ohio river territories - is still an intresting place to visit...

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Why does the Ohio Historical Society Hide Mound and Earthworks Sites ?

I would think the answer to this question would be painfully obvious.

And it's not because "they" don't want us to know our "true" history.

It's because "they" don't want us to steal the artifacts.

Harte

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I like that these sites are being opened to the public (so long as serious archeological work is not impaired), but I don't particularly buy into the web-sites point of view about them (giants, etc)...

We have an ancient site here in Oklahoma, The Spiro Mounds which - while not as impressive as some of those in the Ohio river territories - is still an intresting place to visit...

The sites are being opened to the public by me. The Ohio Historical Society still has them as "address restricted" I put the directions to the sites in my Travel Guide." Keep in mind about archaeological work in that after 100 years of excavating mounds archaeologist don't know who the mound builders were, where they came from, nor where they went. Burial mounds and earthworks are little more that a venue to receive grants.

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I would think the answer to this question would be painfully obvious.

And it's not because "they" don't want us to know our "true" history.

It's because "they" don't want us to steal the artifacts.

Harte

Harte, there is overwhelming evidence that the mound builders whom the archaeologist call Hopewell were a confederation of Sioux, Iroquois and Cherokee Indians. All of these tribes have a history of burying their dead in mounds. Tribal legends of the Sioux state that at one time they lived in the Ohio Valley. This is not supported by archaeologist because of the Native American Graves Protection Act that states archaeologists can not dig in to any burials of "known" tribes.

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I would think the answer to this question would be painfully obvious.

And it's not because "they" don't want us to know our "true" history.

It's because "they" don't want us to steal the artifacts.

Harte

Aww, Harte what fun is that? This kind of thinking is not going to get us an ancient aliens episode on these mounds.

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Harte, there is overwhelming evidence that the mound builders whom the archaeologist call Hopewell were a confederation of Sioux, Iroquois and Cherokee Indians. All of these tribes have a history of burying their dead in mounds. Tribal legends of the Sioux state that at one time they lived in the Ohio Valley. This is not supported by archaeologist because of the Native American Graves Protection Act that states archaeologists can not dig in to any burials of "known" tribes.

and where does the fallen angels/nephelim come into the picture when the mound builders were a confederation of Sioux, Iroquois and Cherokee Indians????

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and where does the fallen angels/nephelim come into the picture when the mound builders were a confederation of Sioux, Iroquois and Cherokee Indians????

Probably a hold over from the days when many people thought the 'Native American' tribes were too primitive to have done anything more complicated than early stone age technology, without outside help...

Everything found that was more advanced than what was thought they could make, was explained away as some lost (almost always white) colony or civilization... Today they say 'aliens'...

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and where does the fallen angels/nephelim come into the picture when the mound builders were a confederation of Sioux, Iroquois and Cherokee Indians????

The Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were the Hopewell who had their origins with the Maritime Archaic of the Boreal Forest Zone, and were also very tall. Who we know as the Adena were actually the Beaker People who had constructed Stonehenge. The Beaker People had their origins in the Levant and the accounted giants in the Bible known as the Amorites. Eventually the Adena would be absorbed by the Hopewell who adopted many of their earthwork types. What both of these peoples had in common was that they were the last of the Cro Magnon, who were noted for the large size, and bigger brains. We are the product of de-evolutuon.

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I tend to disagree with you on de-evolution IMO it could be simply that a smaller human needed less food etc. To function. Of course watching the oscars does give a big boost to the de-evolving theory. :rolleyes:

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The Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were the Hopewell who had their origins with the Maritime Archaic of the Boreal Forest Zone, and were also very tall. Who we know as the Adena were actually the Beaker People who had constructed Stonehenge. The Beaker People had their origins in the Levant and the accounted giants in the Bible known as the Amorites. Eventually the Adena would be absorbed by the Hopewell who adopted many of their earthwork types.

Well, then, they must have been "absorbed" literally, as in sponge-like, since they left no trace of European DNA or mtDna in their "absorbers."

What both of these peoples had in common was that they were the last of the Cro Magnon, who were noted for the large size, and bigger brains. We are the product of de-evolutuon.

Given that the people we call "Cro Magnon" were Homo Sapiens, it appears that we haven't seen "the last" of them yet.

Otherwise, I'm an alien.

Harte

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Well, then, they must have been "absorbed" literally, as in sponge-like, since they left no trace of European DNA or mtDna in their "absorbers."

Given that the people we call "Cro Magnon" were Homo Sapiens, it appears that we haven't seen "the last" of them yet.

Otherwise, I'm an alien.

On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America. Linguistic studies shows that these three tribes have a common origin. All of these tribes also share a history that they once lived in the northeast in the area where the Red Paint people were found. Burial mounds in Labrador date as early as 5,500 B.C.- a burial tradition that would continue to the Hopewellian era. Plummets or Charm Stones were found with the Red Paint people in the Northeast, Europe and in the Hopewell mounds in the Ohio Valley, showing they were the same people.

Harte

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Well, then, they must have been "absorbed" literally, as in sponge-like, since they left no trace of European DNA or mtDna in their "absorbers."

Given that the people we call "Cro Magnon" were Homo Sapiens, it appears that we haven't seen "the last" of them yet.

Otherwise, I'm an alien.

On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America.

Unfortunately, for your hypothesis, this isn't possible.

If the Sioux, Cherokee, and Iroquios came here from Europe, they would have a great deal more mtDNA X2 in them than they do today.

Secondly, the haplogroup in question has been found in Siberians since the original study of mtDNA shaplogroup X was first done:

Haplogroup X is an exception to this pattern of limited geographical distribution. It is found, generally at low frequencies, in both West Eurasians (Richards et al. 2000) and some northern groups of Native Americans (Ward et al. 1991; Forster et al. 1996; Scozzari et al. 1997; Brown et al. 1998; Smith et al. 1999; Malhi et al. 2001), but, intriguingly, it is absent in modern north Siberian and East Asian populations (Brown et al. 1998; Starikovskaya et al. 1998; Schurr et al. 1999), which are genetically and geographically closest to those of Native Americans. Among Siberians, haplogroup X mtDNAs have only been detected in some Altaian populations of southwestern Siberia (Derenko et al. 2001).

Linguistic studies shows that these three tribes have a common origin. All of these tribes also share a history that they once lived in the northeast in the area where the Red Paint people were found. Burial mounds in Labrador date as early as 5,500 B.C.- a burial tradition that would continue to the Hopewellian era. Plummets or Charm Stones were found with the Red Paint people in the Northeast, Europe and in the Hopewell mounds in the Ohio Valley, showing they were the same people.

The presence of the same haplogroup in Altaian Siberians, obviously, does not mean that some of the X haplogroup in America didn't come from Europe.

On the other hand, mutation rates of mtDNA are well known and strongly established. Science has absolutely established that the mtDNA in question arrived in America at least ten thousand years before Stonehenge was even built, long before the Beaker Culture even existed.

Harte

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On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America. Linguistic studies shows that these three tribes have a common origin. All of these tribes also share a history that they once lived in the northeast in the area where the Red Paint people were found. Burial mounds in Labrador date as early as 5,500 B.C.- a burial tradition that would continue to the Hopewellian era. Plummets or Charm Stones were found with the Red Paint people in the Northeast, Europe and in the Hopewell mounds in the Ohio Valley, showing they were the same people.

Plummets are found from one end of the continent to the other, not just just in the northeast. Large numbers of them are found in California and variants as far south as Texas and Florida. I was doing a search on plummets a while back for my own interest and I don't recall running across anything like them from Europe. Even if there is, there's certainly nothing to suggest they were anything more than a common solution to a common need. You might as well say all groups that used spears or axes were the same people.

Hopewell sites are found as far north as western New York but other sites beyond that are not artifactually consistent with the Hopewell culture beyond the occasional trade item.

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Plummets are found from one end of the continent to the other, not just just in the northeast. Large numbers of them are found in California and variants as far south as Texas and Florida. I was doing a search on plummets a while back for my own interest and I don't recall running across anything like them from Europe. Even if there is, there's certainly nothing to suggest they were anything more than a common solution to a common need. You might as well say all groups that used spears or axes were the same people.

Hopewell sites are found as far north as western New York but other sites beyond that are not artifactually consistent with the Hopewell culture beyond the occasional trade item.

Not everything is on the net. They have something called books, Check them out. Its called research.

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On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America. Linguistic studies shows that these three tribes have a common origin. All of these tribes also share a history that they once lived in the northeast in the area where the Red Paint people were found. Burial mounds in Labrador date as early as 5,500 B.C.- a burial tradition that would continue to the Hopewellian era. Plummets or Charm Stones were found with the Red Paint people in the Northeast, Europe and in the Hopewell mounds in the Ohio Valley, showing they were the same people.

WRONG!

Fagundes et al., Mitochondrial Population Genomics Supports a Single Pre-Clovis Origin with a Coastal Route for the Peopling of the Americas, The American Journal of Human Genetics (2008), doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2007.11.013

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Fagundes-et-al.pdf

Hg n S pi (SD) % Tajima’s D Fu’s Fs p(95% CI)a Bayesian (95% CI)

A2 16 58 0.0512 (0.0282) -2.333 -9.897 20,552 (14,953–26,151) 21,290 (16,550–28,130)

B2 21 72 0.0504 (0.0273) -2.468 -15.997 20,307 (15,246–25,369) 22,140 (17,570–28,730)

C 17 44 0.0417 (0.0233) -2.097 -7.200 17,227 (11,461–22,994) 20,680 (16,830–26,260)

D1 20 44 0.0484 (0.0263) -1.594 -7.280 21,580 (13,263–29,896) 21,430 (16,850–28,730)

X2a 12 20 0.0304 (0.0180) -1.277 -2.410 17,983 (6,056–29,910) 20,730 (16,100–29,000)

Edit to add: New group X2g

/////////////////////

High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas

Mol. Biol. Evol. 21(1):164–175. 2004

DOI: 10.1093/molbev/msh009

Molecular Biology and Evolution vol. 21 no. 1

In America, Y Chromosome Q1a3a and C3b - P39 have approximate lineage dates of the following (see later dates):

Altai + North Asia versus Native Americans

Comparison Upper Bound Lower Bound From (dl)2

Q lineage 17,200 +/- 4,600 14,700 +/- 5,700 10,143 +/- 3,714

C lineage 13,900 +/- 3,200 13,600 +/- 4,100 10,500 +/- 4,929

All dates are BEFORE PRESENT.

So, would you like to try again?

cormac

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Not everything is on the net. They have something called books, Check them out. Its called research.

Since you only picked out that one point to address, I'm going to go ahead and assume the rest are solid hits.

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Posted (edited)

On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America. (mound builder).

First, the Hopewell did not represent a specific culture. This eastern period is most commonly referred to as the Hopewell Tradition or the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. It consisted of numerous groups with an extensive cultural and material exchange network. Your allusion to the Laurel culture is rather tenuous, as they would appear to have retained their autonomy (Arzigian 2008), as did other groups.

Secondly, the highest percentage of haplogroup X (X2a1b to be specific) occurs in the Ojibwe (Anishinabe) at as much as 25%. The Ojibwe are members of the Algonquin language group. The presence of haplogroup X in other groups such as the Siouan is at notably lower percentages and, particularly amongst the Siouans, is considered to be the result of mixing.

Thirdly, as noted by Harte, the reason that official information regarding the specific location of sensitive sites is limited to qualified investigators is a matter of protecting these site from damaging disturbance. There are specific guidelines in this regard in the NHPA. Your perceptions in regards to research are equally flawed.

Edit: Add quote.

Edited by Swede

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On the contrary, northern tribes of Native American that were in the areas of the Boreal Forest Zone have an genetic marker called Haplo X that is found in Caucasion populations. This genetic marker was picked up between 7-5000 BC about the time the early Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois were coming to North America via boat to North America. (mound builder).

First, the Hopewell did not represent a specific culture. This eastern period is most commonly referred to as the Hopewell Tradition or the Hopewell Interaction Sphere. It consisted of numerous groups with an extensive cultural and material exchange network. Your allusion to the Laurel culture is rather tenuous, as they would appear to have retained their autonomy (Arzigian 2008), as did other groups.

Secondly, the highest percentage of haplogroup X (X2a1b to be specific) occurs in the Ojibwe (Anishinabe) at as much as 25%. The Ojibwe are members of the Algonquin language group. The presence of haplogroup X in other groups such as the Siouan is at notably lower percentages and, particularly amongst the Siouans, is considered to be the result of mixing.

Thirdly, as noted by Harte, the reason that official information regarding the specific location of sensitive sites is limited to qualified investigators is a matter of protecting these site from damaging disturbance. There are specific guidelines in this regard in the NHPA. Your perceptions in regards to research are equally flawed.

A reply right out of the archaeologists handbook. To the archaeologists their perception of "preserved" is "preserved to be destroyed." Native American burial mounds continue to be excavated because of the clause in the Native American Protection Act that only protects burials of "known" tribes, so as long as archaeologists continue to use "Hopewell Interaction Sphere" opposed to Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois they will continue to eradicate America's ancient past.

Edit: Add quote.

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Posted (edited)

A reply right out of the archaeologists handbook. To the archaeologists their perception of "preserved" is "preserved to be destroyed." Native American burial mounds continue to be excavated because of the clause in the Native American Protection Act that only protects burials of "known" tribes, so as long as archaeologists continue to use "Hopewell Interaction Sphere" opposed to Sioux, Cherokee and Iroquois they will continue to eradicate America's ancient past (Fritz, aka moundbuilder).

It would appear that you are not fully familiar with the numerous statues that govern archaeological activities in the US. Under the very broad umbrella of the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) we have the more specifically related statutes starting with the National Historic Preservation Act (NHPA), in particular Sec. 106 and Sec. 110. Working within the above frameworks we have the Archaeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA), the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act (NAGPRA), and numerous others including AIRFA, the AHPA, and the RFRA.

To more directly address NAGPRA – Firstly, this act, in specific, only applies to federal or tribal lands. Other jurisdictions such as states and counties have adopted similar policies in a number of areas. To quote directly from the NAGPRA statutes:

SEC. 3. OWNERSHIP.

25 USC 3002

(a) Native American Human Remains and Objects.-The ownership or control of

Native American cultural items which are excavated or discovered on Federal or tribal

lands after the date of enactment of this Act, shall be (with priority given in the order

listed) -

(1) in the case of Native American human remains and associated funerary

objects, in the lineal descendants of the Native American; or

(2) in any case in which such lineal descendants cannot be ascertained, and

in the case of unassociated funerary objects, sacred objects, and objects of

cultural patrimony -

(A) in the Indian tribe or Native Hawaiian organization on whose

tribal land such objects or remains were discovered;

(2) in the Indian tribe or Native Hawaiian organization which has the

closest cultural affiliation with such remains or objects and which,

upon notice, states a claim for such remains or objects; or

(3) if the cultural affiliation of the objects cannot be reasonably

ascertained and if the objects were discovered on Federal land that is

recognized by a final judgment of the Indian Claims Commission or

the United States Court of Claims as the aboriginal land of some Indian

tribe -

(1) in the Indian tribe that is recognized as aboriginally

occupying the area in which the objects were discovered, if

upon notice, such tribe states a claim for such remains or

objects, or

(2) if it can be shown by a preponderance of the evidence that

a different tribe has a stronger cultural relationship with the

remains or objects than the tribe or organization specified in

paragraph (1), in the Indian tribe that has the strongest

demonstrated relationship, if upon notice, such tribe states a

claim for such remains or objects.

Section 3 is further clarified in 43 CFR 10, October 1, 2003, p.217, paragraph e.

(e) What is cultural affiliation? Cultural affiliation means that

there is a relationship of shared group identity which can reasonably be

traced historically or prehistorically between members of a present-day

Indian tribe or Native Hawaiian organization and an identifiable earlier

group. Cultural affiliation is established when the preponderance of the

evidence -- based on geographical, kinship, biological, archaeological,

linguistic, folklore, oral tradition, historical evidence, or other

information or expert opinion -- reasonably leads to such a conclusion.

As you can plainly read, your "interpretation" of NAGPRA is less than complete.

In addition, as per Section 3© of NAGPRA, no intentional disturbance of remains can be conducted without the appropriate ARPA permit, which is only issued after consultation with the culturally affiliated tribal entities.

It should also be noted that under ARPA, the deliberate disturbance or transport of human remains on any lands, public or private, without the proper permitting, is a felony.

As to your continued references to the Cherokee: To date, this has not been substantiated by genetic research:

Mills looked, in particular, for evidence of ancestral ties between the individuals at the Hopewell site and Cherokee Indians, since some oral traditions have suggested a relationship between them. She found that Cherokee mtDNA samples "...do not cluster close to the Ohio Hopewell."

http://www.friendsof...807OhioDNA.html

The complete paper can be read here:

http://etd.ohiolink....f?osu1054605467

Edit: Remove of automatically generated faces.

Edited by Swede

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I don't know anything about archaeology but I've met a few Ohioans and this may explain a lot :P

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