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Still Waters

Pagan prisoners demand right to pray naked

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Pagan prisoners are demanding the right to pray naked and wear hooded robes in their cells.

Under prison guidelines, they are allowed to wear only robes without hoods to ensure their faces can be seen.

And the practice of sometimes stripping naked to pray is simply not allowed.

Now one unnamed inmate at Frankland prison, a high security jail in Durham, has claimed that he is being ‘discriminated against’ because he is not allowed to pray wearing a ‘druid-style’ hooded robe in his cell.

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What next. If I was in prison I could make up rules for a religion where I have to be allowed out shopping every weekend. :blink:

In fact I think 'proper' pagans have too craft their very own knife... Can't see that being allowed either. :wacko:

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The Ministry of Justice allows pagan prisoners to have a number of religious ‘artefacts’ in their cells, including incense, a pentagram necklace, a ‘flexible twig or wand’, rune stones made from ‘wood, stone or clay’, a chalice, an altar to pray at and tarot cards.

It's not enough..gimme gimme gimme !!

This is blatant discrimination and should be seriously looked at

I don't think so...

I always thought that once you are a convicted criminal, you loose the rights to do what you want? This is not about Pagans, I would say this about ANY prisoner...whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Atheist.. I couldn't care what they were... I think if you are convicted, you take what you get... I cannot help but wonder how many will over look my comment that reads -> I would say the same about ANY prisoner? lol

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It's not enough..gimme gimme gimme !!

I don't think so...

I always thought that once you are a convicted criminal, you loose the rights to do what you want? This is not about Pagans, I would say this about ANY prisoner...whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Atheist.. I couldn't care what they were... I think if you are convicted, you take what you get... I cannot help but wonder how many will over look my comment that reads -> I would say the same about ANY prisoner? lol

I will say this BM. I do not agree with some of your beliefs and thoughts, we both hashed that out a long time ago but they cannot scream you are picking on one lot of people. Just like this post. " Whether they be...--this is a good trait. Oh, I forgot--"Shut up stupid".:P

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I will say this BM. I do not agree with some of your beliefs and thoughts, we both hashed that out a long time ago but they cannot scream you are picking on one lot of people. Just like this post. " Whether they be...--this is a good trait. Oh, I forgot--"Shut up stupid".:P

You're right, I take no prisoners.. I single no one out.. If a person is convicted of a crime or crimes.. it is tough on them... Calling it discrimination all because some Pagan wants his way is stupid and it is a victim card I am so tired of hearing... . I would say to those pagans and others like them.. .Here is a fact of life --> . - PEOPLE DIE WANTING.. so get over it.. serve your time like the rest Suck it up like everyone else.. and shut up......Well that's my motto happy.gif

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You're right, I take no prisoners.. I single no one out.. If a person is convicted of a crime or crimes.. it is tough on them... Calling it discrimination all because some Pagan wants his way is stupid and it is a victim card I am so tired of hearing... . I would say to those pagans and others like them.. .Here is a fact of life --> . - PEOPLE DIE WANTING.. so get over it.. serve your time like the rest Suck it up like everyone else.. and shut up......Well that's my motto happy.gif

Atta girl.:yes:

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You're right, I take no prisoners.. I single no one out.. If a person is convicted of a crime or crimes.. it is tough on them... Calling it discrimination all because some Pagan wants his way is stupid and it is a victim card I am so tired of hearing... . I would say to those pagans and others like them.. .Here is a fact of life --> . - PEOPLE DIE WANTING.. so get over it.. serve your time like the rest Suck it up like everyone else.. and shut up......Well that's my motto happy.gif

I agree with you Geri, but for one thing. What of the people that are innocent and wrongly convicted? Or those that the punishment doesn't fit the crime? Aye, there my not be that many, but with that in mind, they are the exception. If it were known who they were, sure then they wouldn't be in there, but eh. That's really the only reason I would say they should have that right to their religious practices. If that right from the U.S. Constitution/Bill of Rights can be ignored, then others can as well. Aside from all that, you're awesome Geri.

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I follow some Pagan beliefs, but a prisoner should be punished. No prisoner of any faith or lack of should be allowed such pleasures once they commit a crime. Prison is a place of punishment not somewhere to carry on their lives in different circumstances.

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I demand the right to do everything naked! Feel the breeze... :lol:

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I demand the right to do everything naked! Feel the breeze... :lol:

Me too, clothes are so restrictive. Truth to tell I can't sleep clothed. If I go to bed clothed, I take them off in my sleep. Can be embarassing if I'm at a friends house. :yes:

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If "pagan" = "a chancer"... then he's a pagan.

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Generally speaking, letting it get around that you enjoy being naked and wearing robes is going to be interpreted in a rather specific way by the rest of the prisoners.

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Generally speaking, letting it get around that you enjoy being naked and wearing robes is going to be interpreted in a rather specific way by the rest of the prisoners.

Aye, especially with prisoners already being sexually frustrated since they are away from members of the opposite sex. It may or may not cause prison rape to go on the rise. No pun intended.

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Yes, thank you Meiliken. I was afraid my subtlety would go unnoticed.

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Posted (edited)

I agree with you Geri, but for one thing. What of the people that are innocent and wrongly convicted? Or those that the punishment doesn't fit the crime?

If you take that attitude, you may as well tell every prisoner to leave and do what they want.. just in case they were ........wrongly convicted !!!... sigh... Frankly if you are inside and sent to serve time.. any prisoner can or will say they are wrongly convicted..you still abide by the prison rules... like it or not....And if later found to be wrongly convicted, I am sure the justice system will have to compensate...But for now suck it up like everyone else ... who by the way all claim they too are wrongly convicted lol........And one more thing... prisoners are lucky the punishment doesn't fit the crime... imagine how many in for murder would last eh? rape?The list goes on do you really want to think about that one?..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Just seeing this is highly amusing. :lol:

Aquatus made a very good point with how their wishes might be interpreted by other prisoners. I agree with Beckys_Mom. If you're in prison you should lose all rights, but not just religious ones. I'm tired of these so-called country club prisons all over the US. I'm sick of prisoners crying about their rights. That's part of doing time. You get all rights and privileges taken away. Allowing you to eat, sleep and exercise is humane enough.

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Posted (edited)

Exactly as Offeriad has said,

Bottom line - prison is about the denial of personal freedom and the right to behave as you please. It is regulated for the safety of the majority and to act as a deterrant to commit crime in the first place. The only requirement prison should guarantee is food, shelter and clothing - of the Prison's choice. All other rights are forfeit - that's why it's called a "prison" for goodness sake. The way things are going, when I'm old and decrepit I'm thinking of turning to crime so I can spend my twilight years "living the good life" in prison instead of struggling to make ends meet in the real world.

Edited by libstaK

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Posted (edited)

I don't believe the topic is whether prisoners should have rights or not even if it is related. Instead it is unfair for one group of prisoners, Christians, to be able to have access to religious services and expression, then to tell another group, pagans, that they cannot have the same.

Also the argument that prisoners should have nothing but are given so much, so that perhaps they should just go to prison to be lazy, is facetious in that I doubt anyone would seriously entertain the second point based on the first.

A question I have is since paganism is an umbrella term, as is Christianity, and there are many types of Christians but the most one might get is a generic Christian chaplain and service and not one of your specific denomination, then should not pagans also get general services but nothing truly specific to any branch of paganism? Since paganism can also be very eclectic and private or ceremonies can differ from group to group then this confuses the question even more.

Edited by Unseelie

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Posted (edited)

It's not enough..gimme gimme gimme !!

I don't think so...

I always thought that once you are a convicted criminal, you loose the rights to do what you want? This is not about Pagans, I would say this about ANY prisoner...whether they be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu or Atheist.. I couldn't care what they were... I think if you are convicted, you take what you get... I cannot help but wonder how many will over look my comment that reads -> I would say the same about ANY prisoner? lol

Then how do all those guys in prison,convert and get all religious.I believe they're allowed bibles,and they have priests and rabbis,and they can go to church or temple.

Most prisons have facilities for worship.

A pagan cannot get to a wooded glen to dance naked ,and do solstice or equinox rituals properly.

That's not fair.

I actually think it's silly to ask for robes,but they should be allowed to do proper rituals.Catholic prisoners can get the host and give confession.

Its actually ,not fair if these guys are denied their simplest worships.

Edited by missymoo999

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I don't believe the topic is whether prisoners should have rights or not even if it is related. Instead it is unfair for one group of prisoners, Christians, to be able to have access to religious services and expression, then to tell another group, pagans, that they cannot have the same.

Also the argument that prisoners should have nothing but are given so much, so that perhaps they should just go to prison to be lazy, is facetious in that I doubt anyone would seriously entertain the second point based on the first.

A question I have is since paganism is an umbrella term, as is Christianity, and there are many types of Christians but the most one might get is a generic Christian chaplain and service and not one of your specific denomination, then should not pagans also get general services but nothing truly specific to any branch of paganism? Since paganism can also be very eclectic and private or ceremonies can differ from group to group then this confuses the question even more.

I think the article is using pagan as a blanket term,as they dont know any better.

In the UK,a lot of old druidic Celtic sects,still exist.

Its not wicca,but it's similar.

They use robes a lot,and their rituals are frigging ancient.

They would celebrate all the same holidays wiccans would,with some extra emphasis on mother earth and fertility rites.

They do a lot of sex magick,which of course isn't as easy to do in jail.

They like to commune with nature ,so they do a lot of stuff naked.Much more so than wiccans.

Its possible they are Wiccan,but id need to know more .Im guessing its the Celtic form of witchcraft more popular in the UK.

I can see why they would ask for this exemption,but I dont think it's realistic. I think they should be allowed to celebrate and do simplistic rituals though.

They certainly cannot have athames and so forth ,or do blood or sex magick ,so they are already limited . Give them a break.

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And prior to any major accommodations being made, there should be a clear prior history of engaging in such rituals.

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And prior to any major accommodations being made, there should be a clear prior history of engaging in such rituals.

*scratches head*

Well,you hear about wiccans in the USA wanting off Wiccan holy days,and its not granted.

However,in the USA,there is a Hispanic population in prisions,who I assume,all practice Santeria,but I doubt anyone will let them kill chickens...but they pray to god and go to church too ....

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*scratches head*

Well,you hear about wiccans in the USA wanting off Wiccan holy days,and its not granted.

Generally speaking, prisons don't have days off. Kind of a year round sort of thing.

However,in the USA,there is a Hispanic population in prisions,who I assume,all practice Santeria,but I doubt anyone will let them kill chickens...but they pray to god and go to church too ....

:huh:

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If you take that attitude, you may as well tell every prisoner to leave and do what they want.. just in case they were ........wrongly convicted !!!... sigh... Frankly if you are inside and sent to serve time.. any prisoner can or will say they are wrongly convicted..you still abide by the prison rules... like it or not....And if later found to be wrongly convicted, I am sure the justice system will have to compensate...But for now suck it up like everyone else ... who by the way all claim they too are wrongly convicted lol........And one more thing... prisoners are lucky the punishment doesn't fit the crime... imagine how many in for murder would last eh? rape?The list goes on do you really want to think about that one?..

Heh, don't get me wrong, I don't think all prisoners are innocent. Far from it. But if put in the wrongly convicted shoes, you might think differently. Being a prisoner doesn't mean giving up your rights. If it did, prisoners would only be eating bread and water and nothing else. I don't consider them lucky for not being punished for the crime they committed. I honestly think our prison system is too lenient in some areas, and too harsh in others. Religious pratcies are in reality, a right for everyone, regardless of where they are. Being imprisoned is not supposed to be easy. But the moment you cease inalienable human rights, you cease thinking of them as human. Lets be honest, if they're not human, then would we just use them as target practice? A rapist, should be raped, though not all rape is physical, it can also be mental. My stand on murder is this, death for killing someone(although there are extreme circumstances). Really though, isn't torturing someone for hurting another person more barbaric than trying to fix them? But they are human, so they should always be allowed religion. America is supposed to be freedom of religion. As much as I hate religion, I have to stand by that on my honor.

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Just seeing this is highly amusing. :lol:

Aquatus made a very good point with how their wishes might be interpreted by other prisoners. I agree with Beckys_Mom. If you're in prison you should lose all rights, but not just religious ones. I'm tired of these so-called country club prisons all over the US. I'm sick of prisoners crying about their rights. That's part of doing time. You get all rights and privileges taken away. Allowing you to eat, sleep and exercise is humane enough.

Because afterall, that has made so many prisoners better able to function in society. The reality of that is most people sent to prison, even for some of the lighter crimes, become worse criminals. There is a difference between a violent person, and a person driven to violence. When you leave a person with no alternative, they will turn to the only people they can, other criminals. Evil, begets evil. If you really think that, then the moment you see anyone guilty of a crime, pull out your gun and shoot to kill. Afterall, they're no better than animals. Let me know when you've become civilized.

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