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Vets Rage Over Obama's Face On US Flag

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"A group of veterans angered by an American flag bearing the image of President Barack Obama descended on the local Democratic party headquarters in central Florida and demanded it be taken down.

It was, but not before heated words were exchanged between the two sides, media reports say".

"It's a cult of personality to show his face, like Stalin or Mao," John Masterjohn, a former Marine and retired schoolteacher from Leesburg, told the Orlando Sentinel. "It's despicable. They don't realize how sick they are."

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/15/10702389-obamas-image-on-american-flag-angers-vets

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Posted (edited)

To the vets I would say, "freedom of speech/expression works both ways."

While I respect the fact they fought to protect that freedom, their reaction suggests their motivation was not towards an 'all-encompassing' freedom, but simply the 'freedom' to think as they think.

Edited by Leonardo

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To the vets I would say, "freedom of speech/expression works both ways."

While I respect the fact they fought to protect that freedom, their reaction suggests their motivation was not towards an 'all-encompassing' freedom, but simply the 'freedom' to think as they think.

OK so we are both UK men. How would YOU feel having our flag with Cameron on it? I wouldn't feel good for sure.

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I wonder sometimes if those who staunchly stand up for the rights of others to be free to offend the majority truly treasure that freedom or is it that they've simply never known anything they would fight for?

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Posted (edited)

OK so we are both UK men. How would YOU feel having our flag with Cameron on it? I wouldn't feel good for sure.

I would question why the picture was there in the first place, and yes, I would be uneasy about it, but what really does the flag represent?

Can universal, inclusive and fluid concepts such as personal liberty and freedom of expression be represented through a static symbol? Isn't there a dissonance there between what is believed and how that belief is symbolised? And does not the symbol then eventually overtake the belief until the believer becomes rigid and uncompromising in their belief of their own 'rightness', and so "freedom of expression" becomes "freedom to express what I believe"?

and then,

I wonder sometimes if those who staunchly stand up for the rights of others to be free to offend the majority truly treasure that freedom or is it that they've simply never known anything they would fight for?

It is a cliche that I have seen written here on several occasions...

"I may not agree with what you believe, but I'll fight for your right to believe it."

What does that really mean to the speaker?

Edited by Leonardo

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Expressing outrage over this isnt trying to take away anyones rights.

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Expressing outrage over this isnt trying to take away anyones rights.

Very true. They have a right to express outrage just as the DNC has a right to fly the flag.

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Expressing outrage over this isnt trying to take away anyones rights.

Very true. They have a right to express outrage just as the DNC has a right to fly the flag.

I agree completely. The vets have every right to express their outrage. Do they have the right to demand the flag be removed?

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Posted (edited)

In the US there is no actual law to prevent 'desecrating' the national flag... There are standards of 'flag etiquette' and there are societal norms for flag usage - but no actual laws...

In the Military (remember these are vets) there ARE regulations (laws) very clearly outlining the usage of the national flag... These vets are trained to react to the flag in accordance with Mil Regs and that (therefore) drives their 'outrage'... (they are plainly upset but I think outrage is a bit of an overstatement...)

For myself (also a vet), It doesn't 'outrage' me but this coupled with a few other things the current administration has done in the past, it does raise the question as to whether this could be the beginning of a 'cult of personnality'...

I don't trust any politician that feels the need to plaster their image over national symbols... They are employees, hired to do a job - and they are temps at that... We need to make sure they stay that way...

edit: I didn't mean 'we' as in vets... everyone should keep an eye on elected officials...

Edited by Taun

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In the US there is no actual law to prevent 'desecrating' the national flag... There are standards of 'flag etiquette' and there are societal norms for flag usage - but no actual laws...

In the Military (remember these are vets) there ARE regulations (laws) very clearly outlining the usage of the national flag... These vets are trained to react to the flag in accordance with Mil Regs and that (therefore) drives their 'outrage'... (they are plainly upset but I think outrage is a bit of an overstatement...)

For myself (also a vet), It doesn't 'outrage' me but this coupled with a few other things the current administration has done in the past, it does raise the question as to whether this could be the beginning of a 'cult of personnality'...

I don't trust any politician that feels the need to plaster their image over national symbols... They are employees, hired to do a job - and they are temps at that... We need to make sure they stay that way...

edit: I didn't mean 'we' as in vets... everyone should keep an eye on elected officials...

Good post and I agree 100%.

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Posted (edited)

In the US there is no actual law to prevent 'desecrating' the national flag... There are standards of 'flag etiquette' and there are societal norms for flag usage - but no actual laws...

In the Military (remember these are vets) there ARE regulations (laws) very clearly outlining the usage of the national flag... These vets are trained to react to the flag in accordance with Mil Regs and that (therefore) drives their 'outrage'... (they are plainly upset but I think outrage is a bit of an overstatement...)

For myself (also a vet), It doesn't 'outrage' me but this coupled with a few other things the current administration has done in the past, it does raise the question as to whether this could be the beginning of a 'cult of personnality'...

I don't trust any politician that feels the need to plaster their image over national symbols... They are employees, hired to do a job - and they are temps at that... We need to make sure they stay that way...

edit: I didn't mean 'we' as in vets... everyone should keep an eye on elected officials...

Did 'the politician' (Obama) "feel the need to plaster their image over national symbols"?

I don't see it reported that US flags nationwide are being replaced with one's picturing Obama, all I read was that one flag, on a flagpost in the grounds of a Democrat Party building, was a combination US flag with Obama's picture on it. I did not read that it was Obama's idea to do this, nor that he ordered it.

So, which 'elected official' are you suggesting "we keep our eyes on" regarding this incident?

And not everything, nor any behaviour, can be justified by the "they are military/veterans" trope. I respect those who serve, but that respect does not extend to the point that they can do no wrong.

Edited by Leonardo

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The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions.

Presented by the Congressional Research Service.

Page CRS-7, Section 8-G.

The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to

it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any

nature.

Senate.Gov

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The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions.

Presented by the Congressional Research Service.

Page CRS-7, Section 8-G.

Senate.Gov

Atta boy soldier. Salute.

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The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions.

Presented by the Congressional Research Service.

Page CRS-7, Section 8-G.

Senate.Gov

Which means very little in light of the ruling by the US Supreme Court that any burning or desecration of the flag is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

So, I ask again, what is it the flag actually means?

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I agree completely. The vets have every right to express their outrage. Do they have the right to demand the flag be removed?

Of course. But that doesnt mean they will get what they want.

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Which means very little in light of the ruling by the US Supreme Court that any burning or desecration of the flag is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

So, I ask again, what is it the flag actually means?

Depends on who you are asking I guess.

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Did 'the politician' (Obama) "feel the need to plaster their image over national symbols"?

I don't see it reported that US flags nationwide are being replaced with one's picturing Obama, all I read was that one flag, on a flagpost in the grounds of a Democrat Party building, was a combination US flag with Obama's picture on it. I did not read that it was Obama's idea to do this, nor that he ordered it.

So, which 'elected official' are you suggesting "we keep our eyes on" regarding this incident?

And not everything, nor any behaviour, can be justified by the "they are military/veterans" trope. I respect those who serve, but that respect does not extend to the point that they can do no wrong.

First off I did not 'justify' their behavior... In fact their behavior needs no justification- it is their RIGHT to protest... I merely pointed out the background of their 'protest' as I saw it...

Secondly, ANY and ALL elected officals MUST be 'watched'... Those of us that live in a representative democracy are part of the Checks and Balances that keep government (or any official in that government) from overstepping their bounds...

Someone in the Presidents political organisation (party) did this... by letting it stand, it is giving tacit approval of it - the Head of a Staff is ultimately responsible for the actions of the staff - in any organisation... This issue could have been quietly 'defused' by the simple act of the President (or a member of his staff) telling them to take it down...

My comment about 'plastering images all over' comes from many years of watching other countries (through history) create 'personnality cults' by doing this very thing... That is what I was concerned with...

Not that I have to 'justify' my thoughts or beliefs either...

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First off I did not 'justify' their behavior... In fact their behavior needs no justification- it is their RIGHT to protest... I merely pointed out the background of their 'protest' as I saw it...

Secondly, ANY and ALL elected officals MUST be 'watched'... Those of us that live in a representative democracy are part of the Checks and Balances that keep government (or any official in that government) from overstepping their bounds...

Someone in the Presidents political organisation (party) did this... by letting it stand, it is giving tacit approval of it - the Head of a Staff is ultimately responsible for the actions of the staff - in any organisation... This issue could have been quietly 'defused' by the simple act of the President (or a member of his staff) telling them to take it down...

My comment about 'plastering images all over' comes from many years of watching other countries (through history) create 'personnality cults' by doing this very thing... That is what I was concerned with...

Not that I have to 'justify' my thoughts or beliefs either...

You are presuming the President (or his staff) knew about this before the protest occurred?

And my point about 'justification' was not aimed at anyone in particular.

preacherman,

Of course. But that doesnt mean they will get what they want.

Again, I agree. Because what they want may contravene what others are allowed.

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Posted (edited)

The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions.

Presented by the Congressional Research Service.

Page CRS-7, Section 8-G.

Senate.Gov

Thank you .

In general,its rude. Burning the flag can get you arrested,but this guy is such an egomaniac,that he needs to see his face 50 times ?

Does he have his name tattooed on himself somewhere too,so he can read the magnificence every day ?

Im Oblam The Man !

:huh:

Hey,I'd rather,if they have to do this,they put Robert Downey Jrs face on it,or frigging Big Bird,or How about 50 Cartmans ?

Please Biach,get OVER yourself .Its just rude.

Edited by missymoo999

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I agree completely. The vets have every right to express their outrage. Do they have the right to demand the flag be removed?

Sure they do. And the DNC has a right to tell them to pound sand.

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They should have ironed it.

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Depends on who you are asking I guess.

To me, as a soldier, it means a lot of things. As a soldier you bring that flag with you as a banner every where you go. No matter where you are in the world that flag stands out, everyone knows where you are from and what you are. To me, it used to be that it stood for everything that was right... democracy, freedom, prosperity and a chance to become more. However, in the last few years not only has the flag itself been tarnished time and time again, but the reputation of that flag as well due to bad policies and decisions made by men that think they know better than the founders of this country. As a soldier, just as these vets, I reserve the right to become angry when some one tries to make a mochary out of our banner... we reserve our right to protest and point out the wrong doing and no one can take that away from us.

Secondly

Which means very little in light of the ruling by the US Supreme Court that any burning or desecration of the flag is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

So, I ask again, what is it the flag actually means?

You are are confusing desecration with display. A flag DISPLAYED at the DNC (a politically affiliated organization mind you) is subject to the laws of DISPLAY. By saying otherwise you are stating that the DNC was willingly desecrating the banner of the United States. And YES, the DNC would be directly affiliated with the office of the president seeing as how he is running for another term, thus, they are representative of him at this point in time.

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Posted (edited)

To me, as a soldier, it means a lot of things. As a soldier you bring that flag with you as a banner every where you go. No matter where you are in the world that flag stands out, everyone knows where you are from and what you are. To me, it used to be that it stood for everything that was right... democracy, freedom, prosperity and a chance to become more. However, in the last few years not only has the flag itself been tarnished time and time again, but the reputation of that flag as well due to bad policies and decisions made by men that think they know better than the founders of this country. As a soldier, just as these vets, I reserve the right to become angry when some one tries to make a mochary out of our banner... we reserve our right to protest and point out the wrong doing and no one can take that away from us.

Secondly

You are are confusing desecration with display. A flag DISPLAYED at the DNC (a politically affiliated organization mind you) is subject to the laws of DISPLAY. By saying otherwise you are stating that the DNC was willingly desecrating the banner of the United States. And YES, the DNC would be directly affiliated with the office of the president seeing as how he is running for another term, thus, they are representative of him at this point in time.

Bravo and a hardy salute. I am with you. I don't see a piece of cloth which is red, white and blue. I see a vision we seem to have lost with the blood of thousands of our men and women whom died believing this vision so when you treat this flag with disrespect you are disrespecting the thousands who suffered and died for it.

Edited by Robbie333

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Which means very little in light of the ruling by the US Supreme Court that any burning or desecration of the flag is protected under the First Amendment of the US Constitution.

So, I ask again, what is it the flag actually means?

Apparently in the rarified air that you breathe, not much. But then, that's ultimately your problem and not mine. These vets have the freedom to choose to protest the actions of this party hack and with any luck and some good press coverage they will succeed in their fight.

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To me, as a soldier, it means a lot of things. As a soldier you bring that flag with you as a banner every where you go. No matter where you are in the world that flag stands out, everyone knows where you are from and what you are. To me, it used to be that it stood for everything that was right... democracy, freedom, prosperity and a chance to become more. However, in the last few years not only has the flag itself been tarnished time and time again, but the reputation of that flag as well due to bad policies and decisions made by men that think they know better than the founders of this country. As a soldier, just as these vets, I reserve the right to become angry when some one tries to make a mochary out of our banner... we reserve our right to protest and point out the wrong doing and no one can take that away from us.

Secondly

You are are confusing desecration with display. A flag DISPLAYED at the DNC (a politically affiliated organization mind you) is subject to the laws of DISPLAY. By saying otherwise you are stating that the DNC was willingly desecrating the banner of the United States. And YES, the DNC would be directly affiliated with the office of the president seeing as how he is running for another term, thus, they are representative of him at this point in time.

The last 2 administrations,have treated our service people SO BADLY,its despicable.

I was walking in NYC Chinatown,and i found this framed thing on the street.

I think the poor man had passed away,and his stuff was just dumped in the garbage.

Its on Whitehouse stationary,and signed by harry Truman.

Its a letter of thanks,for serving the united states during ww2.

I was intrigued,looked it up.He sent one to ever single vet that came home....

These fools,deny you proper medical care,and say you have to pay for your own ptsd therapy,even though they made you do 5 tours,back to back,in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fail

I say they should burn this flag,as its not really a us flag at all.

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