Florida Teen murdered by

[+susieice]

No. The girlfriend's statement says she told him to RUN, and he did. Then it is not clear if Zimmerman came over to Martin, or if Martin went back to confront Zimmerman. So the confrontation in the phone call was not when Zimmerman first went to confront Martin, but was following the running away.

Zimmerman's call to 911 says that he lost Martin and was going back to his car.

Still it could have been either that started the second confrontation. If it was Martin, then his killing was Self Defense, if it was Zimmerman, then it is Manslaughter.

No, it doesn't. Zimmerman's last call to 911 is where he makes arrangements to meet the officer he knows to be enroute at the mailboxes then changes his mind and tells them to call him and he'll let them know where he is. He never tells them he's going back to the truck. That call ends at 7:15. The link is in here.

[Leonardo]

No. The girlfriend's statement says she told him to RUN, and he did. Then it is not clear if Zimmerman came over to Martin, or if Martin went back to confront Zimmerman. So the confrontation in the phone call was not when Zimmerman first went to confront Martin, but was following the running away.

Zimmerman's call to 911 says that he lost Martin and was going back to his car.

Still it could have been either that started the second confrontation. If it was Martin, then his killing was Self Defense, if it was Zimmerman, then it is Manslaughter.

The testimony from his girlfriend indicates Trayvon did run initially. Then Zimmerman found him again, whereupon Trayvon said [to his girlfriend] he was not going to run. Then there is a confrontation where Martin asks Zimmerman "Why are you following me?". Zimmerman does not reply but asks Martin "What are you doing here?" This is the point the girlfriend states she heard noises like people in a scuffle, and Martin's headset dropped, losing phone contact.

If Martin had decided to use force at this point, he would (were he alive) have a case for that force being justified. It is only if Zimmerman left to return to his car after that brief confrontation, and Martin pursued him, that Zimmerman has a valid case for self-defence.

As Susieice states, the 911 call where Zimmerman says he is going back to his car also includes him changing his mind and continuing his pursuit of Martin on foot.

[Socio]

More facts in this case;

Police Gave George Zimmerman Voice Stress Test

George Zimmerman's defense team is growing, suggesting that he's planning for a grand jury indictment and a subsequent criminal trial. Interestingly, his new attorney has begun releasing some previously unknown facts.

Did you know that, on the night of Trayvon Martin's death, Sanford police gave George Zimmerman a voice stress test?

They did, and the results probably contributed to his release.

A voice stress test is like a polygraph, but instead of measuring heart rate and blood pressure, it looks for changes in an individual's voice patterns that are thought to suggest psychological stress. With the help of software, investigators record a suspect answering baseline questions and then compare them to answers about the case.

George Zimmerman's voice stress test came out clean, according to attorney Hal Uhrig.

[joshsluss]

You guys do know the screams are Zimmermans right?

If you've been fooled into thinking it's Trayvons you need to take a tack hammer to your head.

[Leonardo]

More facts in this case;

Police Gave George Zimmerman Voice Stress Test

Are polygraph tests accurate?

Some info...

Skip to the conclusion...

We have reviewed the scientific evidence on the polygraph with the goal of assessing its validity for security uses, especially those involving the screening of substantial numbers of government employees. Overall, the evidence is scanty and scientifically weak. Our conclusions are necessarily based on the far from satisfactory body of evidence on polygraph accuracy, as well as basic knowledge about the physiological responses the polygraph measures. We separately present our conclusions about scientific knowledge on the validity of polygraph and other techniques of detecting deception, about policy for employee security screening in the context of the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) laboratories, and about the future of detection and deterrence of deception, including a recommendation for research.

The scientific testing and analysis of polygraphs - including VSA - shows the lack of methodology inherent in the use of polygraphs. The 'scoring' of accuracy is entirely based on a perception of that what is being measured is relevant to the investigation (i.e. the subject's responses are due to deception and not any other factor) - which has never been shown to be true.

I would also question the validity of what amounts to a stress test, administered in short order after what was a very stressful situation. Any 'adjustment' made to eliminate the residual stress Zimmerman must have still felt would completely invalidate the results.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Leonardo

[F3SS]

YA it's all about the money. ****in' ******s yellin' and screamin' about their rights! They just want everything free. All that stuff stupid white trash worked so hard for....

If the courts are targeting people they don't have the same rights as you. And do you think the cause of the violence in black neighborhoods is due to being targeted by law enforcement? They are creating anger which creates crime! I don't know how to explain it any better than I have. But you can't argue with stupid so just go ahead and believe it all magically fell into place for you because you are the perfect moral human beings. That's why God blessed you and gave you the mooney.

What? Nevermind, don't wanna know.

How come you didn't reply to my scenario? The one where the stand your ground law could protect you, post 482.

[libstaK]

You guys do know the screams are Zimmermans right?

If you've been fooled into thinking it's Trayvons you need to take a tack hammer to your head.

Until that is presented as a verified fact - no, I for one do not know that. We have conjecture at this point and the opinion of experts that based on their technology it is not Zimmerman's. It's a case of watch this space rather than believe one way or the other on this question for me.

[Babe Ruth]

DieChecker

SYG actually DOES matter, despite your protestations.

It was that statute that the State Attorney Office cited in dismissing the manslaughter charges against Z proposed by the investigating officer, remember?

Another question might be 'was Martin entitled to stand his ground in self defense?'. If he was being followed by Z, what is he entitled to do to defend himself?

[conspiracybeliever]

Well let's see...

With Zimmerman a shooting happened, no facts were known and a story was made up to support a completely skewed left wing vision of racism in America. Therefore no one knows just yet if Zimmerman should be arrested. Maybe it was illegal, maybe it wasn't.

With the panthers it's not what they said. It's what they offered. A cash reward for the kidnapping or death of someone. It's called contract killing and its incredibly illegal to even make an offer. So those actions are illegal and proven. It was publicly announced on television. That's why an arrest should be made. What would your reaction be if the KKK put out a bounty for a black guy? I'm sured you'd be foaming at he mouth for an arrest.

Zimmerman wasn't a hit man. That's highly unlikely. But you just make up your own facts.

The law...I bet you'd appreciate a stand your ground law if you were attacked one night by a man and during the struggle you were able to stab the prick right in the heart. Let's say you were lucky and didn't get that banged up. You're a lady with no bruises, and maybe a slightly known contention for men in general, who just killed a man. Would you want the media telling a false version of your story? No. You'd appreciate the fact that the stand your ground law is keeping you out of jail, staying innocent until proven otherwise. In your eyes though, you should be sitting in jail as a convicted cold blooded murderer. Get it now? You complain so much about "the system" yet in this case you want the system to ignore the rules and make an arrest when they don't need to, yet.

If this were the case then yes the SYG law would be good. But in your scenario I am being attacked. I wouldn't go out looking for trouble and try to deal with it like I were a cop. Man or woman trying to attack me I would try to avoid them. If I had the chance I would call the police and get out of there. That's not what Zimmerman did. It's a good law if it's used as it is supposed to be used and not abused as it has been in this case. In this case an innocent person has been murdered and it could have easily been avoided. I find it very strange that people who believe in our system so much wouldn't trust it to do what it is supposed to do and take the law into their own hands or think it is alright that someone else is but then you scream about the violence in black neighborhoods. They don't trust the system either and they have many reasons to not trust the system. What you are describing in these black neighborhoods is people who do not trust the system so have taken the law in their own hands. You don't think this is the beginning of expanding that to other neighborhoods?

And yes the population of Vermont is only 1%. I don't want to sit here and watch riots in other states. That isn't why I am angry over the way this has been handled. I can understand the anger in the black communities. I can understand being targeted by the legal system and this law or any law being twisted to justify what has happened here. And if you look back I was not the one that brought race into this. I don't care what color anyone is. I feel Zimmerman should have been in jail the night of the incident.

[+and-then]

DieChecker

SYG actually DOES matter, despite your protestations.

It was that statute that the State Attorney Office cited in dismissing the manslaughter charges against Z proposed by the investigating officer, remember?

Another question might be 'was Martin entitled to stand his ground in self defense?'. If he was being followed by Z, what is he entitled to do to defend himself?

He was, as long as he felt threatened for his life. But once he had Z down and was making him scream like a little girl, I think Martin had to know he was no longer in danger. The law is weakly written and confusing and ultimately will be recrafted or repealed IMO.

The Grand Jury is impaneled in 2 days. I wonder if they will make evidence for their decision available to the public? At this point it might be considered inflammatory not to do so.

[Babe Ruth]

Screaming like a little girl, or screaming like a little boy?

For a disinterested observer, it sounds like your mind is fairly well made up already?

[Myles]

Anyone know where I can buy a t-shirt supporting George?

I want one to protest mob (media) rules.

[Pyridium]

I believe the police have evidence that has not been reported to the public, yet. What did Trayvon possess the night he was shot? That answer is the reason Zimmerman has not been charged and never will be charged. Case closed.

[+and-then]

Screaming like a little girl, or screaming like a little boy?

For a disinterested observer, it sounds like your mind is fairly well made up already?

In my vernacular the expression "scream like a little girl" is a pejorative implying that a guy is weak and maybe spineless. It denotes fear and weakness on Z's part as he was flat of his back being pummeled. And no I have not made up my mind because there have been no witnesses heard from in an official legal setting where they are under penalty of law if they lie. If the witnesses corroborate that Z followed and attacked Martin then I hope they hang him. Even if Z is acquitted under a lousy law he will still go through life knowing he caused this young man's death by being a cowboy.

I'll say it again - my interest is that NO ONE be railroaded by a lynch mob and that is exactly what is being attempted by the race hustlers and news organs around the country. I've lived in the deep south my whole life and I know that racism is still a fact of life here. But not nearly to the extent being portrayed in this case. I think Z had aspirations to be Dirty Harry and he caused a situation that got out of control. I don't believe Trayvon's death was premeditated; it was the result of stupidity and circumstances and if the witnesses are sufficient to prove that then Z should spend many years in jail.

But if there were no witnesses who agree and there is the slightest doubt about his guilt then he MUST be given the protection of this lousy law.

[Pyridium]

Where is the reply to the people? Why is Zimmerman still not arrested? The lead investigator has the power to arrest and charge Zimmerman now. Are the protesters being denied justice? They demand, the police should comply? What kind of mob mentality do we live in, and this is the Uniter States? Will the process be delivered to the Grand Jury? What if the Grand Jury does not press charges, is it over then? Does more blood have to be spilled before Al Sharpton gets a clue? He is the one with blueberry all over his face, time and time again.

[Myles]

In my vernacular the expression "scream like a little girl" is a pejorative implying that a guy is weak and maybe spineless. It denotes fear and weakness on Z's part as he was flat of his back being pummeled. And no I have not made up my mind because there have been no witnesses heard from in an official legal setting where they are under penalty of law if they lie. If the witnesses corroborate that Z followed and attacked Martin then I hope they hang him. Even if Z is acquitted under a lousy law he will still go through life knowing he caused this young man's death by being a cowboy.

I'll say it again - my interest is that NO ONE be railroaded by a lynch mob and that is exactly what is being attempted by the race hustlers and news organs around the country. I've lived in the deep south my whole life and I know that racism is still a fact of life here. But not nearly to the extent being portrayed in this case. I think Z had aspirations to be Dirty Harry and he caused a situation that got out of control. I don't believe Trayvon's death was premeditated; it was the result of stupidity and circumstances and if the witnesses are sufficient to prove that then Z should spend many years in jail.

But if there were no witnesses who agree and there is the slightest doubt about his guilt then he MUST be given the protection of this lousy law.

It may be a lousy law in the way that it is written, but a similar law is needed to protect people from being charged with murder for protecting themselves. This may not apply to George.

[Wandering]

I believe the police have evidence that has not been reported to the public, yet. What did Trayvon possess the night he was shot? That answer is the reason Zimmerman has not been charged and never will be charged. Case closed.

Certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Don't expect to get any credit if you turn out to be right though. Trayvon supporters will just slink away to lick their wounds, before latching on to the next media outcry.

[+DieChecker]

No, it doesn't. Zimmerman's last call to 911 is where he makes arrangements to meet the officer he knows to be enroute at the mailboxes then changes his mind and tells them to call him and he'll let them know where he is. He never tells them he's going back to the truck. That call ends at 7:15. The link is in here.

The only living witness to what happened after Z hung up on the 911 operator is Z. I've not seen a map of the crime scene, so I could easily be wrong, but was the scene of the shooting between the mailboxes and where Z left his car, or was the shooting scene in some other direction? If the shooting location is far from the mailboxes or car, then I'd agree Z went back looking for trouble.

The testimony from his girlfriend indicates Trayvon did run initially. Then Zimmerman found him again, whereupon Trayvon said [to his girlfriend] he was not going to run. Then there is a confrontation where Martin asks Zimmerman "Why are you following me?". Zimmerman does not reply but asks Martin "What are you doing here?" This is the point the girlfriend states she heard noises like people in a scuffle, and Martin's headset dropped, losing phone contact.

If Martin had decided to use force at this point, he would (were he alive) have a case for that force being justified. It is only if Zimmerman left to return to his car after that brief confrontation, and Martin pursued him, that Zimmerman has a valid case for self-defence.

As Susieice states, the 911 call where Zimmerman says he is going back to his car also includes him changing his mind and continuing his pursuit of Martin on foot.

Unless that phone call was taped, it is up to some debate, don't you think? Perhaps Trayvon said he was not going to run anymore and ment he was going back to confront Z? The term can be used that way. What also seems clear is that Z did not intend on physically having it out with Trayvon, he had a gun and would have pulled it if he thought he would have to to detain Trayvon. Logically Trayvon MUST have been the first to strike out.

The 911 call does not include Z saying he is going to continue looking for Martin, it can be deduced, but is not stated.

DieChecker

SYG actually DOES matter, despite your protestations.

It was that statute that the State Attorney Office cited in dismissing the manslaughter charges against Z proposed by the investigating officer, remember?

Another question might be 'was Martin entitled to stand his ground in self defense?'. If he was being followed by Z, what is he entitled to do to defend himself?

SYG still would not matter. As it would be superceded by the Federal level defense of Self Defence. If you claim a local ordinance as protection and it is superceded by a state or federal law, your still hosed. That the Attorneys Office cited SYG simply means they did not have all the details of the case in hand yet. Just as the investigating officer did not have all the details yet.

I do agree Zimmerman should have been held for 48 hours on suspicion, till the details could have been figured out better, but what details we have now say it really is not necessary to bring Z back in. The preponderance of evidence says he acted in self defense and was justified in the shooting.

[conspiracybeliever]

Prosecutor rules out grand jury in Trayvon Martin case

Reuters) - The special prosecutor investigating the shooting death of unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin has ruled out using a grand jury in the case, meaning her office alone will decide whether to charge shooter George Zimmerman with a crime

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylt=Ah4_ZP8iB3qIqPJ6v0P6Iu2bvZx4;_ylu=X3oDMTRxN2dhOHFnBGEDdHJheXZvbiBncmFuZCBqdXJ5BGNjb2RlA3B6YnVhbGxjYWg1BGNwb3MDMQRnA2lkLTIxNzY1NjUEaW50bAN1cwRtY29kZQNwemJ1YWxsY2FoNQRtcG9zAzIEcGtndAM0BHBrZ3YDMgRwb3MDMgRzZWMDdGQtbndzBHNsawN0aXRsZQR0ZXN0AzcwMQR3b2UDMTI3NTk5ODg-/SIG=138tc9g2g/EXP=1334075991/**http%3A//news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-rules-grand-jury-trayvon-martin-case-160059250.html

[F3SS]

Prosecutor rules out grand jury in Trayvon Martin case

Reuters) - The special prosecutor investigating the shooting death of unarmed Florida teenager Trayvon Martin has ruled out using a grand jury in the case, meaning her office alone will decide whether to charge shooter George Zimmerman with a crime

http://www.yahoo.com/_ylt=Ah4_ZP8iB3qIqPJ6v0P6Iu2bvZx4;_ylu=X3oDMTRxN2dhOHFnBGEDdHJheXZvbiBncmFuZCBqdXJ5BGNjb2RlA3B6YnVhbGxjYWg1BGNwb3MDMQRnA2lkLTIxNzY1NjUEaW50bAN1cwRtY29kZQNwemJ1YWxsY2FoNQRtcG9zAzIEcGtndAM0BHBrZ3YDMgRwb3MDMgRzZWMDdGQtbndzBHNsawN0aXRsZQR0ZXN0AzcwMQR3b2UDMTI3NTk5ODg-/SIG=138tc9g2g/EXP=1334075991/**http%3A//news.yahoo.com/prosecutor-rules-grand-jury-trayvon-martin-case-160059250.html

That probably just means there isn't as much to this case as some would believe. I'm sure this prosecutor knows the law better than us. There is probably a good reason. Nothing shady.

[+and-then]

That probably just means there isn't as much to this case as some would believe. I'm sure this prosecutor knows the law better than us. There is probably a good reason. Nothing shady.

Yet they still haven't arrested him. If there is sufficient hard evidence then why not appease the crowd immediately and arrest? They've had weeks to build a case that would stand up in court. I wonder if they simply don't want to risk a mob scene at the detention facility? Would he be released on bail? How to keep him safe if he is released? The State of Florida is apt to spend some BIG money on this case and I'm sure they'd like to avoid a lawsuit from him at a future date if they go about his prosecution improperly. He should probably just be taken into Federal custody for his own safety at this point.

[Pyridium]

There is no criminal act here. The Grand Jury would have laughed this out the door. There is no incriminating evidence. There will be no charges, that will be justice. Case closed.

For those of you that seem to be in a rush to arrest and convict Zimmerman without due process, have at it. No charges means cities will burn?

[conspiracybeliever]

That probably just means there isn't as much to this case as some would believe. I'm sure this prosecutor knows the law better than us. There is probably a good reason. Nothing shady.

Ya you're probably right. Nothing shady about prosecutors. They're right up there next to God.

[conspiracybeliever]

There is no criminal act here. The Grand Jury would have laughed this out the door. There is no incriminating evidence. There will be no charges, that will be justice. Case closed.

For those of you that seem to be in a rush to arrest and convict Zimmerman without due process, have at it. No charges means cities will burn?

It was a criminal act that he wasn't jailed the night it happened!

[Myles]

It was a criminal act that he wasn't jailed the night it happened!

Unless he was innocent.