Florida Teen murdered by

[+susieice]

I agree, but a trial doesn't mean George is guilty of murder.

If the evidence points that way yes. If it doesn't no. Let the law do it's work.

Edited April 14, 2012 by susieice

[Babe Ruth]

Well, you have to admit that it is encouraging to see the system finally work! Better late than never!

[Socio]

There is nothing else to go by, so you do not only have to judge someone by their appearance, you must judge them for you and yours own safety.

It is the same reason that if you get on a plane today and if someone looks to be Muslim ALL eyes are on them, it not because everyone else on that plane are racist profilers, it is just the primal law of self preservation kicking in, it is human nature.

Yes but you can't jump them. You can't demand the stewardess remove them. The airline can't refuse them tickets. TSA has probably already put them through everything that they can.

No of course not, however if they become offended at you watching them and physically attacked you for it, then you would be well within your rights to defend yourself, even kill them if you thought they were trying to kill you, would you not?

Edited April 15, 2012 by Socio

[Babe Ruth]

Zimmerman is a predator vigilante.

[Bavarian Raven]

Zimmerman is a predator vigilante.

you have any proof of this statement atm?

[Babe Ruth]

No, that's just the way I'm betting sir.

But by his actions in stalking Martin, he displays the behavior of a predator.

[+DieChecker]

His dad said he was at work at the time this happened.

I thought his own dad said he was at dinner with the girlfriend.

He was close to home and may have thought he'd make it only I don't know what Zimmerman would have done if the kid went towards a house.

We really need a map of these events. As if Z's car was close to the house were Martin was staying that would back up Z's story, but if it is far from where the car was, that contradicts Martin's story.

He was 70 feet from home when he was shot.

I've read 100 yeards also, which is four times as far away. You'd think if Trayvon was shot that close to his house, (Basically the length of a house.) that a neighbor would have told the GF that the cops had been there and someone was shot. Which did not happen, so I'm inclined to think it was closer to 70 or 100 yards.

As to all the questions, this is why there needs to be a trial. Only when the witnesses, all of them, testify will we really know what they have to say. We all know what Zimmerman is claiming but will it stand up to the evidence? What was gathered at the crime scene is unknown to us. We know the prosecutor said it was helpful in reaching her decision. A lot is unknown to us and will remain so until it is told in court.

I do agree with you that there should be a trial at this point. I'm of the opinion however that the evidence will not be enough to convict. I wonder how they will find enough "impartial" people?

[lightly]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/trayvon-martin-death-spotlights-neighborhood-watch-groups.html?pagewanted=all

SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

◊ ◊

Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

***

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php

When 28-year-old George Zimmerman was discovered by Sanford, Florida police standing over the body of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they accepted Zimmerman's claim that he killed in self-defense as a neighborhood watch captain. Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) -- the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch -- it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.

"In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket," Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens' Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. "Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon."

Edited April 15, 2012 by lightly

[+DieChecker]

I see you guys are talking about racial profiling, and not about profiling in a criminal investigative way.

As for the bolded part, that is simply stupid. I can see no reason why things should be handled like this, especially if i look at it from a judical point of view. People are being jailed for not filling out papers, but get away for putting other people in danger?

It is how one of the local cities is handling profiling. They were acused of profiling many times and lost a lot of cases to liberal judges, so they have been forced to fall back on stupid procedures to prevent lawsuits.

This is the same town, Beaverton, where they have a zero tolerance gun law where children (Elementary school age) are routinely brought in for using tranparent water pistols in the front yard of their own house. Even using a bit of wood, or a stick and pretending to use it like a gun usually has the police show up and hand out warnings. A kid was arrested for carrying around a monopoly game gun token in his pocket.

[+DieChecker]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/trayvon-martin-death-spotlights-neighborhood-watch-groups.html?pagewanted=all

SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

◊ ◊

Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

I think it still depends on what what happened. No one that has posted here knows if Zimmerman tracked down Martin and confronted him. Even the girlfriend's testamony would seem to indicate that Martin went back. How could Zimmerman, a desk jocky, who got out and followed Trayvon, and lost him. Then somehow move fast enough, not only to catch up to Trayvon, but to confront him? So, I think Martin was coming back, probably to go to the house he was staying, and Zimmerman saw him at that point. Who walked up to who (And confronted who) is still in debate, or unknown. Should Zimmerman, when he saw Trayvon again, have run off? Maybe he thought Trayvon was coming over to tell him what he was doing there at night? There are endless reasons why the two would can come together, but ultimately one of them pushed the other and then Zimmerman was on the ground, and then the gun came out and Trayvon got shot. The series of events is sad, but the final action is that Martin feared for his life and he shot.

I look forward to the circus, drama, clowns and uber-emotional pleas to the media and the public that will come out in the trial. Trials should be won or lost on facts and evidence, not feelings, fear and public and political pressure.

[+DieChecker]

There is some question as to whether Mr. Zimmerman is an official member of a Registered Neighborhood Watch . That question aside... According to this Government publicaton, Mr. Zimmerman was not behaving in accordance with established Neighborhood watch policies.

... I feel sorry for everyone involved in this horrible tragedy.

https://www.bja.gov/publications/nsa_nw_manual.pdf

Patrol members should be trained by law enforcement. It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous.

I have to agree, and said so in my first post, that Zimmerman should not have been carrying that gun as a representative of the neighborhood watch. He should have taken it off and left it in the car.

[+DieChecker]

No, that's just the way I'm betting sir.

But by his actions in stalking Martin, he displays the behavior of a predator.

Or a guard dog??

[Bavarian Raven]

Babe Ruth, on 15 April 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

No, that's just the way I'm betting sir.

But by his actions in stalking Martin, he displays the behavior of a predator.

Or a guard dog??

[Babe Ruth]

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

[+and-then]

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

You know, Babe, if the evidence proves that Z lied and Martin didn't attack him before he fired then I'll be the first to admit that Z should go to jail for a very long time. What about you? If the evidence shows that Z was telling the truth will that satisfy you or does the fact that Z followed Martin trump all else? Because I get the impression from you that THAT was the bottom line for you. That Z doing what a neighborhood watcher does, was enough to make him guilty of murder.

[Leonardo]

You know, Babe, if the evidence proves that Z lied and Martin didn't attack him before he fired then I'll be the first to admit that Z should go to jail for a very long time. What about you? If the evidence shows that Z was telling the truth will that satisfy you or does the fact that Z followed Martin trump all else? Because I get the impression from you that THAT was the bottom line for you. That Z doing what a neighborhood watcher does, was enough to make him guilty of murder.

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

So, doesn't it rather hinge on Zimmerman's claim that he backed off and Martin followed him to his car, rather than who attacked who?

The only evidence, if it can be called that, that I can see which might make or break Zimmerman's testimony is where he and Martin were when the shooting took place. Because his entire defence rests on Martin using unlawful force (i.e. Martin's attack wasn't covered under SYG) - which would be much harder for Zimmerman to prove (and he has to prove it if his self-defence plea is to hold up) if the fight wasn't near Zimmerman's car.

Edited April 15, 2012 by Leonardo

[+susieice]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us/trayvon-martin-death-spotlights-neighborhood-watch-groups.html?pagewanted=all

SANFORD, Fla. — Last August, Wendy Dorival got a call about setting up a local neighborhood watch. As the volunteer coordinator for the Police Department here, she gets such calls regularly, and the city already had at least 10 active watch groups. So she thought nothing of this call, from George Zimmerman.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

She set up a visit for the next month at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated community that had been dealing with a string of burglaries. When 25 residents showed up, a decent turnout, she had the residents introduce themselves; after all, people join the groups to look out for each other. She then gave a PowerPoint presentation and distributed a handbook. As she always does, she emphasized what a neighborhood watch is — and what it is not.

◊ ◊ ◊ ◊

In every presentation, “I go through what the rules and responsibilities are,” she said Thursday. The volunteers’ role, she said, is “being the eyes and ears” for the police, “not the vigilante.” Members of a neighborhood watch “are not supposed to confront anyone,” she said. “We get paid to get into harm’s way. You don’t do that. You just call them from the safety of your home or your vehicle.”

◊ ◊

Using a gun in the neighborhood watch role would be out of the question, she said in an interview.

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

***

http://www.thegrio.com/specials/trayvon-martin/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization.php

When 28-year-old George Zimmerman was discovered by Sanford, Florida police standing over the body of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they accepted Zimmerman's claim that he killed in self-defense as a neighborhood watch captain. Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) -- the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch -- it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.

"In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket," Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens' Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. "Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon."

We have Neighborhood Watch here which have close connections to the police department and also the Guardian Angels who I saw this weekend walking in larger groups than they used to. I wonder if people realize that because Zimmerman represented himself as a Watchman that this case could endanger others who are not allowed to be armed and may be felt to be fair game because they are no different. This was very irresponsible on Zimmerman's part.

[+susieice]

Or a guard dog??

I wouldn't want him guarding my neighborhood. He caused more problems than he did any good.

[+and-then]

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

So, doesn't it rather hinge on Zimmerman's claim that he backed off and Martin followed him to his car, rather than who attacked who?

The only evidence, if it can be called that, that I can see which might make or break Zimmerman's testimony is where he and Martin were when the shooting took place. Because his entire defence rests on Martin using unlawful force (i.e. Martin's attack wasn't covered under SYG) - which would be much harder for Zimmerman to prove (and he has to prove it if his self-defence plea is to hold up) if the fight wasn't near Zimmerman's car.

The burden is definitely on Zimmerman since he initiated the contact between them. But the way I understand the law (possibly poorly) is that no matter who initiates the fight, if a person engaged in such feels their life is threatened then they can use deadly force. And this is why I keep saying the law is at fault for this bolloxed up mess. I hope that because of the public nature of this case there are TV cameras allowed in the court room. People should be able to see the evidence and understand the law more intimately.

[+susieice]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trending-now/y-big-story-zimmerman-arrest-questions-stand-ground-043707411.html

A breakdown I found of the SYG law and it's possible application to the trial.

[+DieChecker]

An 'attack dog' would be a better description.

Technically, a guard dog is behind a fence, guarding an area.

Or a gated community?

[+susieice]

Or a gated community?

Wouldn't want him there either.

I've lived in a gated community and they usually have their own security personnel that patrol. You have to show a resident's card or have someone call the gate with your info to be allowed through. Then your state picture ID will work.

Edited April 16, 2012 by susieice

[+DieChecker]

What if Martin did attack him, but that attack was immediately after asking Zimmerman why he [Martin] was being followed and not receiving a reply? In that case, the SYG law would suggest Martin may have had reasonable grounds to take forceful action.

How is talking to someone across, say 5 feet, imply unwarranted excessive force? You keep saying if Zimmerman confronted Martin, that SYG allowed violent action. But, I don't see where SYG gets involved where two people are only talking.

Why would Zimmerman jump Trayvon? I just don't see happening, as he knew the police were just minutes away. Also he did have a gun, and probably felt quite safe confronting Trayvon. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that it makes no sense that Zimmerman was the one that started the fighting. He held the "high ground" so to speak.

If knocking someone down and beating the **** out of them is OK to do after someone will not give you a straight answer, then this nation is flipping doomed.

Edited April 16, 2012 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

I wouldn't want him guarding my neighborhood. He caused more problems than he did any good.

That is based off one incident. That is very closed minded. What if Zimmerman had previously prevented two rapes and a stabbing and reported several burgleries? We have no idea what Zimmerman has done to benefit his community. We only know that he made one bad decision and that a horrible consiquence followed.

[+susieice]

How is talking to someone across, say 5 feet, imply unwarranted excessive force? You keep saying if Zimmerman confronted Martin, that SYG allowed violent action. But, I don't see where SYG gets involved where two people are only talking.

Why would Zimmerman jump Trayvon? I just don't see happening, as he knew the police were just minutes away. Also he did have a gun, and probably felt quite safe confronting Trayvon. I'm not saying he was right to do so, just that it makes no sense that Zimmerman was the one that started the fighting. He held the "high ground" so to speak.

If knocking someone down and beating the **** out of them is OK to do after someone will not give you a straight answer, then this nation is flipping doomed.

Consider a kid who was already scared being followed by someone he didn't know, saw the gun and was even more scared. Zimmerman had a mouth on him and not much regard as to listening to authority. He was that in his own right with an attitude to boot. Who knows what he said to the kid after the call was cut off. I don't believe a 17yr old could beat someone like that in a matter of seconds, and this timeline will come down to seconds.