Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
bom shankra

Livio C. Stecchini

91 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

Edited by shanka boom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

he did a stupid thing - he believed that what Velikovsky spouted was the absolute truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

I think his ancient measures studies are quite interesting.

His stuff is very complex ,so i don't understand it all,but its definately facinating.

Edited by missymoo999

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

some of his "proofs" where just based on assumptions. But who is to say these asumptions are wrong or right . So I really cant comment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

some of his "proofs" where just based on assumptions. But who is to say these asumptions are wrong or right . So I really cant comment.

well i'll try break one of his proofs down ; he says agrathachides a greek grammarian from 2nd centuary BCE was the original source of the report that twice the perimiter of the base of the great pyramid is 5 stadia, that is 1/2 a minute of a degree of lattitude. 1 minute of a degree taken at the equator a cursory search turns up a modern figure of about 1842.65m, and the pyramids perimeter * 2, based on coles survey is 1842.78m, so that is close(stecchini uses the mean of the side *8 to get 1842.9m, and quotes 1842.92m as modern estimates - closer than mine, because he uses the estimate from the International Spheroid)

Agratha~, he also tells us, reported the mid line from the base to the apex represents 1 stadium, that is 1/10th of a minute of lattitude.

He claims agratha~ uses the particular word stadia (stecchini says 1 stadium = 600 geographic feet, 10 stadia = 1 minute of degree therfore 600 stadia = 1 degree) The length of a degree of lattitude gets longer to the pole, and is about 20m longer than at the equator.stecchini believes the pyramid would have had a pyramidion that was graduated to represent the varying lengths at all the lattitudes up to the north pole, anyway, again coles figures come to something close to modern estimates of length of a degree of lattitude at pole.

my googlke search gave me 1861m at pole, coles survey of the G.P. produces a mean length of 186.5m (186.5*10=1865) by my reckoning (although I don't think coles data is as reliable for hieght as it is for the base perimeter).

makes you wonder...

Edited by shanka boom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i'd happily take as coincidence the scaled geographical degree hypothesis, but the 'coincidence' is corroborated by authors from ancient greece, in as much as the perimeter of th GP is 1/2 a minute of geographic degree, and the apothem 1 stadium (or 1/10 a minute of degree according to stechinni)

also the fact that the figure derived from perimeter *2 is less than 1/20000th part in error of the modern figure is seriously intruiging. we had Eratosthenes 276BC-195BC figuring the circumferance of the earth at the equator to be 40 000 to 45 000km (true fig about 40 027km), but this was only achieved by his various errors cancelling out, and as Stecchini aludes to, this is most likely a case of Eratosthenes, being head of the library of alexandria, read the information, and then passed his calculations off as his own endeavour. So much as to say how much more startling is the possible fact that two and a half millenium earlier than this the knowledge existed, and to a degree of precision that makes the Ancint Greeks look primitive, and was incorporated in the worlds biggest oldest structure.

I have cut and pasted this from wiki, relating to Jomards(napoleons savant) concepts regarding this matter:-

"Mouton may or may not have known that The Milos was based on a stadion equivalent to the Egyptian minute of march. Sir Issac Newton who attempted to restablish the measures of the ancient world from the math problems in Kings 1 may not have known that But its certain that Jomard, one of the French savants accompanying Napoleon to Egypt entrusted with the measurement of ancient architecture to attempt to restablish the correct value of ancient measures by measurement knew that because he cites the Greeks who knew that "In 1798, Edme-Francois Jomard visited the Great Pyramid as a young savant on Napoleon's expedition. The French had the debris cleared away from the two northern corners of the Pyramid and discovered the corner sockets where the corner casing stones had apparently originally been placed. These were ten by twelve foot mortises, perfectly level, and perfectly level with each other, cut twenty inches into the limestone bedrock. Although, there were still piles of rubble between them, Jomard was able to measure the north side of the base to be 230.902 meters (757.5 feet). For the height, he measured each step. They added up to a total of 144 meters (481 feet). By means of trigonometry Jomard calculated a slope of 51* 19' 14", and an apothem of 184.722 meters. Because the casing stones were missing, these figures were both estimates, but the length of the apothem looked virtually perfect in light of various ancient classical texts which Jomard was familiar with." Diodorus Siculus and Strabo both claimed that the apothem of the Great Pyramid was one stadium long. The Olympic stadium was 600 Greek feet, and was supposed to be related to the size of the earth. Jomard found the stadium of Eratosthenes and Hipparchus to be 185.5 meters, and thus within one meter of his figure for the apothem. He also found that distances quoted by the ancients in stadia matched the distances found by Napoleon's surveyors, if a stadium was taken to be 185 meters. The ancient stadium was also reported to have been 1/600 of a degree. When Jomard took the length of a degree at what he believed to be the mean latitude of Egypt, 110,827.68 meters, and divided it by 600, he arrived at a stadium of 184.712 meters, which was within ten centimeters of his figure for the length of the apothem! In addition, several Greek authors had reported that the perimeter of the base was equal to half a minute of a degree. This would mean that a degree of latitude divided by 480 should equal the length of one side of the base. Again Jomard used the length of a degree at his mean latitude of Egypt, 110,827 meters, and dividing by 480 arrived at 230.8 meters, again within 10 centimeters of his measured base."

not sure where the figure of 110,827 meters for mean lattitude of egypt came from, it would have been the best data at that time, however its a bit too long, as was his determination of the length of side of the G.P., but he was not far away from what stechinni is stating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just under 10 months since the above post, permit me if I may to make an edit regarding the figures previously quoted.

well I'll try break one of his proofs down ; he says agatharchides, a Greek grammarian from 2nd centaury BCE was the original source of the report that twice the perimeter of the base of the great pyramid is 5 stadia, that is 1/2 a minute of a degree of latitude. 1 minute of a degree taken at the equator a cursory search turns up a modern figure of about 1842.65m, and the pyramids perimeter * 2, based on Coles survey is 1842.78m, so that is close(Stecchini uses the mean of the side *8 to get 1842.9m, and quotes 1842.92m as modern estimates - closer than mine, because he uses the estimate from the International Spheroid)

The data Cole gives from his 1920's Egyptian government survey is a mean side length of 230.364m, which gives a figure of 1842.912m for perimeter * 2

Google gives a figure of 110.574KM as representing a degree of latitude at the equator (110.574/60 = 1 minute of a degree, which divided by 60 to give minutes equals 1842.9m, that's a deviation of 1.5mm ( or 1 part in 153 575) in side length from the perfect dimension to represent 1/8th minute of degree of latitude.

I've invited a special guest ( a self professed expert in the field) to discuss this with me here on the forum, but I'm not sure they will ordain to take part.

My real issue with the concept is the element represented by Agarthachides, who apparently refers to the perimeter in stadia, it's from this that we are to understand that he is talking about a geographical measure. I'm not sure how well this holds up, hence the question "is he genius or pseudo nut?" The inference is that stadia, or stadium consists of 600 geographical feet, and was the unit commonly used by the ancients in calculating geographical distances.

Leaving Agatharchides aside one moment, the facts presented ought to have some merit on their own. We have a distance for the perimeter which is from the most accurate survey available (J. H. Coles. 'Determination of the exact size and orientation of the Great Pyramid at giza'), and we have modern satellite data for a degree of latitude taken at 0 degrees (the equator), and by taking the hint from these ancient Greeks, and multiplying the perimeter by two to obtain 1 minute, then by 60 to get a degree, we arrive at a figure that is correct to a factor of 1 part in approx 150 000.

Now if we could elucidate this business of stadiums and geographical feet a little more, we might be able to distinguish whether we have merely a coincidence, or proof of a science that was hitherto unrealized by our modern age. Previously as the reader may already be aware, Eratosthenes is credited with determining the circumference of the Earth circa 2BC, but his documented method is apparently flawed, and we can only derive a ball park figure of possibly up to 10 000 km too large.

(Please don't be misled by this comparison, the degree of latitude at the equator is not 1/360th of the circumference of the earth. It is an all together more complex piece of data that takes into account the flattening of the earth at the poles. If we try to multiply out by this method we get a figure of 39800Km, so be clear that this was not what Stecchini was referring to.)

Edited by shanka boom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature. They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yes, but the ratios are exact and rounded. the perimeter * 2 = 1/60th minute of degree of latitude.

The modern meter has its origins in napoleonic france, an was 1/10 000 000th part the distace from equator to pole.

the ratio of Pi and Phi and the golden section are also evident in the proprtions of base to height.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... so if the dimensions were 10 cm longer etc, you wouldn't have any relationship.

Obviously there would be other scales that could have worked as well, but they will be discreet ones, and would not be too abudant (I think I could demonstrate if you wished).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature. They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

hi Archy~ sorry for the teporary lapse of significant information in the immediate response to your Q to me, I didn't want this topic to die staight away again like it did ten months ago, I was hoping it would be discussed by some of the regular contributors to Egytology / Pyramid threads like cormac, diechecker, third eye, hell, even Kemet possibly, oh and not forgeting cladking (apologies for leaving out any notoratti, but you catch my drift ladies and gents.) mainly because I see so much talk about the use of ramps etc. in the G.P., and thought an intruiging subject like this could inject a bit of life into what is after all one of the greatest mysterys on the planet / known to man. I say this because there could be another dozen subjects relating to the G.P. that to my knowledge never get discussed here on U.M.

e.g.1 - the precision of the subteranean passage, straight to 1/4 inch along its whole length according to Petrie (BTW, did you guys ever read Wiki page on Petrie... he was a far right supporter of Eugenics), carved by one worker at a time (3ft squre passage is a bit tight)

e.g.2 - what about the explanation for the well shaft...carved through 200(?) feet of solid masonry, but meeting up at lower and upper ends - why is it there? if it was there originally, why is it carved? if it was done later, how does it manage to forge through the masonry, but still hit its target, why plug the whole length of the acending passage with 3 blocks of granite and numerous limestone ones if there was a gaping hole left open by way of the well shaft?

e.g.3 - limestone casing - 30ft blocks that fit together without space hardly to insert a razor.

e.g.4 - granite ceiling of kings chamber - are we absolutely sure it was a design simply to resist the weight of the over head masonry? don't the gables do most of the job in that regard?

e.g.5 - what were the air shafts for? (talk about inertia, is it 9, or 11 years between each succesive exploration?)

e.g.6 - not even going to start about diorite pouders and copper chisels for carving granite, (core drills and sand, ok, but the granite coffer alone would have taken as long as the pyramid itself to produce by that method, and thats just one of the granite artifacts, there are acres of granite ( yes I know the A.E.'s had time and man power, but still, the granite working team must have made up half the workforce at giza.) Enough to say the A.E. were masters of hard stone working, but do we fully understand there methods?....but now I really am digressing!

looking for evidence the Ancients used Degrees ets, well here it is, look up to the skies, and find those constellationms that the ancients were so enamoured with...

Didn't worship of the bull give way to worship of the ram, Are there not celestial maps carved into the ceilings of temples such as the temple of Hathor at Dendera?

So how many houses in the Zodiac? - 12

how many degrees do the sighns of the zodiac cover? - 30

Where was the G.P. built in terms of latitude? 30 deg

how far, and to where does the land of ancient southern egypt extend? 6 degrees, and falls on the tropic of cancer. (the delimiting band of the ecliptic)

so theres your sexagecimal sytem in evidence back in the days of the 4th Dynasty;

I only hope this will go a little way to avoid dismissing out of hand the theory of Stecchins as presented above.

BTW, Am I missing somethingt here, I can't find spell check anywhere????????? :passifier:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature. They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

No, they did not. They didn't use them for telling time either.

yes, but the ratios are exact and rounded. the perimeter * 2 = 1/60th minute of degree of latitude.

The modern meter has its origins in napoleonic france, an was 1/10 000 000th part the distace from equator to pole.

the ratio of Pi and Phi and the golden section are also evident in the proprtions of base to height.

The Egyptians were well acquainted with the Golden Rectangle, which includes the term Phi you refer to, but the didn't know the irrational number itself, nor any other irrational number, including pi. The golden rectangle can be constructed using a compass and straightedge.

The value for pi that fringies claim is "encoded" into the GP is actually 22/7, which is arrived at by the fringe through manipulations of the slope of the pyramid itself, which the Egyptians constructed as 22 fingers horizontally for each cubit going up (22 fingers "in" for each cubit "up" with one cubit equal to 28 fingers.)

When you do the arithmetical manipulation the fringe insists on, you arrive at the ratio 88/28, or 22/7. This number is close to pi, but the Egyptians at that time had no idea of this, they were using the whole number 3 for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter.

The actual number one can arrive at using the fringe's calculations is more than ten times closer to 22/7 than it is to pi.

looking for evidence the Ancients used Degrees ets, well here it is, look up to the skies, and find those constellationms that the ancients were so enamoured with...

Didn't worship of the bull give way to worship of the ram, Are there not celestial maps carved into the ceilings of temples such as the temple of Hathor at Dendera?

So how many houses in the Zodiac? - 12

how many degrees do the sighns of the zodiac cover? - 30

Where was the G.P. built in terms of latitude? 30 deg

The zodiac you refer to was put there by Greek conquerors in the Ptolemaic period. The Egyptians never knew any zodiac, and they had no known method for measuring the arc of the sky, other than the angle-measuring method I mentioned above.

Harte

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature.

Ah, but a kilometer isn't arbitary, its based on something natural, it's based on what were talking about with stecchini, specifically the distance from equator to pole.

and the greek foot .308m * 360 * 360 000 comes to a pretty good aproximation of the circumferance of the world.

They are anything but arbitary.

The Egyptians were well acquainted with the Golden Rectangle, which includes the term Phi you refer to, but the didn't know the irrational number itself, nor any other irrational number, including pi. The golden rectangle can be constructed using a compass and straightedge.

The value for pi that fringies claim is "encoded" into the GP is actually 22/7, which is arrived at by the fringe through manipulations of the slope of the pyramid itself, which the Egyptians constructed as 22 fingers horizontally for each cubit going up (22 fingers "in" for each cubit "up" with one cubit equal to 28 fingers.)

I have aimed at elucidating the theory of stecchini in the interest of having a frank discussion, and though 22/7 was an approximation as you say, it has nothing to do with where I personally started out...

Herodotus supposedly (I have been reading but haven't pin pointed where yet) provides us with the colaboration that the slope of the meidian triangle is in the proportion of phi (apothem divided by half the base), and stecchin develops on this by suggesting a triangle of 480 feet * 377 feet *610 feet gives very accurate values for phi (610/377 = 1.6180371), and also pi (377/480 *4 = 3.14166). note however that it is not possible to make a right angle triangle from these exact numbers, so he goes on to suggest that two possible meridian sections should be considered...1 based on phi, the other pi. However, there is a point to be made here about the pyramidion. Stecchin states that Agatharchides deliberately leaves it out of the equation, so instead of the 610 ft for the apothem we have 600ft, and instead of half the base of 375, we have 371ft (this assumes a side length of the pyramidion of approx 9ft - half of which is 4.5ft), so now we have right angle triangles that are presented as follows:

based on phi, apothem = 600.1ft, base 370.9, and height 471.8 (this gives 1/phi, or 0.618063)

and based on pi = 599.9ft, 370.6, and again 471.8 ( pi = 3.142009)

so in other words what hes suggesting is two faces are calculated by Phi, and the other two by Pi.

There is alot more to examine regarding stecchini, and since I first read his published theory in Peter Tompkins "secrets of the pyramids" a year ago, I have been hard pressed to find a fatal flaw in his logic, however, it doesn't yield freely to understanding. Should it be ditched in that case? fringe rantings? I'd say harte, that you made your mind up aboout that before I even started the thread.

I'm aware the temple at dendera is of the Ptolemaic period, and have to concede it wasn't an ideal way to illustrate my point. I will pick this up at a later stage perhaps, but for now I will say there is some conjecture about it being rebuilt several times going back to the early dynasties, and that the actual zodiac is actually a calender going back to remote antiquity.

isn't it possible that the ancients recognizing the equinox and the solstice, could have had the capacity and coherence, the deductive insight, to have created a science based on the heavens and the natural world, and to have known instinctively the mechanics of the cosmos. The ancients brain was exactly the same size as modern mans. Is it not bordering on conciet to deny our for fathers this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have aimed at elucidating the theory of stecchini in the interest of having a frank discussion, and though 22/7 was an approximation as you say, it has nothing to do with where I personally started out...

I realize you didn't start out with that.

However, I explained to you not only the proportion used by the Ancient Egyptians to build the pyramid, but also their method of measuring angles.

The pyramid next door, Kephren's, was built using the proportion 21:1 (21 fingers "in" to 1 cubit - 28 fingers - up.)

Manipulation of the same measurements used by the fringe on the Great Pyramid yeilds almost exactly 3 on Kephren's pyramid for exactly the same reasons:

21: 28 when manipulated leads to the ratio 84:28. 84/28 = 3.

Herodotus supposedly (I have been reading but haven't pin pointed where yet) provides us with the colaboration that the slope of the meidian triangle is in the proportion of phi (apothem divided by half the base), and stecchin develops on this by suggesting a triangle of 480 feet * 377 feet *610 feet gives very accurate values for phi (610/377 = 1.6180371), and also pi (377/480 *4 = 3.14166). note however that it is not possible to make a right angle triangle from these exact numbers, so he goes on to suggest that two possible meridian sections should be considered...1 based on phi, the other pi. However, there is a point to be made here about the pyramidion. Stecchin states that Agatharchides deliberately leaves it out of the equation, so instead of the 610 ft for the apothem we have 600ft, and instead of half the base of 375, we have 371ft (this assumes a side length of the pyramidion of approx 9ft - half of which is 4.5ft), so now we have right angle triangles that are presented as follows:

based on phi, apothem = 600.1ft, base 370.9, and height 471.8 (this gives 1/phi, or 0.618063)

and based on pi = 599.9ft, 370.6, and again 471.8 ( pi = 3.142009)

so in other words what hes suggesting is two faces are calculated by Phi, and the other two by Pi.

You can play with numbers all day long but in the end, the fact is that the GP was constructed with a slope of 22 fingers "in" for each cubit up, with the cubit (again) equal to 28 fingers. And it is this ratio that is manipulated using unexplained methods to arrive at pi and phi.

Exact proportions like these (whole number fingers per cubit) can be found on every pyramid built by the Ancient Egyptians. Every single one.

There is alot more to examine regarding stecchini, and since I first read his published theory in Peter Tompkins "secrets of the pyramids" a year ago, I have been hard pressed to find a fatal flaw in his logic, however, it doesn't yield freely to understanding. Should it be ditched in that case? fringe rantings? I'd say harte, that you made your mind up aboout that before I even started the thread.

It's true that I've made up my mind. You have only rehashed some of the things I've looked at in the past. Your posts on this are nothing new to me.

Was I supposed to remain undecided until you decided to post materials I've already considered in making up my mind?

My mind was made up upon examining the actual evidence that we actually have. Not by deciding what could or couldn't have been. I understand what you are trying to imply here and I assure you that in my case, I've thoroughly researched the facts of the matter and found the claims you mentioned here to be baseless.

What is so hard about the 22:28 ratio? It leads to every number you claim, and it does not involve pi or phi at all.

I told you the value the Egyptians used at the time for pi. If they knew what pi was, why would they do this?

isn't it possible that the ancients recognizing the equinox and the solstice, could have had the capacity and coherence, the deductive insight, to have created a science based on the heavens and the natural world, and to have known instinctively the mechanics of the cosmos. The ancients brain was exactly the same size as modern mans. Is it not bordering on conciet to deny our for fathers this?

There's no question that pretty much all ancient peoples, and likely Homo Erectus, recognized the equinox and solstices. The Ancient Egyptians absolutely did.

What of it? It takes no real knowledge to do this, nor any real technology to predict these dates.

Speculation that such observations "could have" led to some sort of science, a science that we have not a shred of evidence for, is a parlor game, not a logical discussion. It could be fun, but I'm not interested, given what I already know.

Harte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AEs might not know our pi but we sure as hell recognize their pi

and we all end up with four equal slices by both pi

that's a good enough pi in my pi book

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I realize you didn't start out with that.

However, I explained to you not only the proportion used by the Ancient Egyptians to build the pyramid, but also their method of measuring angles.

The pyramid next door, Kephren's, was built using the proportion 21:1 (21 fingers "in" to 1 cubit - 28 fingers - up.)

Manipulation of the same measurements used by the fringe on the Great Pyramid yeilds almost exactly 3 on Kephren's pyramid for exactly the same reasons:

21: 28 when manipulated leads to the ratio 84:28. 84/28 = 3.

You can play with numbers all day long but in the end, the fact is that the GP was constructed with a slope of 22 fingers "in" for each cubit up, with the cubit (again) equal to 28 fingers. And it is this ratio that is manipulated using unexplained methods to arrive at pi and phi.

Exact proportions like these (whole number fingers per cubit) can be found on every pyramid built by the Ancient Egyptians. Every single one.

It's true that I've made up my mind. You have only rehashed some of the things I've looked at in the past. Your posts on this are nothing new to me.

Was I supposed to remain undecided until you decided to post materials I've already considered in making up my mind?

My mind was made up upon examining the actual evidence that we actually have. Not by deciding what could or couldn't have been. I understand what you are trying to imply here and I assure you that in my case, I've thoroughly researched the facts of the matter and found the claims you mentioned here to be baseless.

What is so hard about the 22:28 ratio? It leads to every number you claim, and it does not involve pi or phi at all.

I told you the value the Egyptians used at the time for pi. If they knew what pi was, why would they do this?

There's no question that pretty much all ancient peoples, and likely Homo Erectus, recognized the equinox and solstices. The Ancient Egyptians absolutely did.

What of it? It takes no real knowledge to do this, nor any real technology to predict these dates.

Speculation that such observations "could have" led to some sort of science, a science that we have not a shred of evidence for, is a parlor game, not a logical discussion. It could be fun, but I'm not interested, given what I already know.

Harte

appreciate the input harte, I will take your comments into consideration, I was already thinking that it might be the golden section that is really the governing concept, Stecchini does couch his theories in such convoluted language... hell, 'manipulation' even crossed my mind, but I like to tick all the boxes before I dismiss altogether.

Just out of interest, whos survey on the G.P. do you think is most accurate, Petrie, or cole? ....My corespondence with the "expert" that I mentioned a few posts above has hit a brick wall on this point. I'm inclined to believe Cole's was the best to date - he uncovered the remaining casing stones, and established exactly where 3 of the four corner sockets were, where as Petrie had difficulty with this. Petrie however probably spent longer on his triangulations, and had a larger theodolite(10 inch apparently ...ooh err) I believe it could measure a second of a degree, which is equivalent to the distances subtended by a dime at the distance of a mile! however, Petrie survey was 50 years earlier, and i might if I dare mention that he was a man of god, and possibly had lofty aspirations. His survey of the kings chamber is recognized as second to none, but the exact perimeter of the G.P.???

On the theory of the palms and cubits, all I can say is Why? The A.E.s leveled the ground, aligned it to true north, but when it came to the slope they just said 22 in 28 will be fine?

Also, as to Pi, I could give you pi to 5 decimals with string and a stick in the sand, so why not pi? what if some of the actual evidence is missing - you migh be missing out on something, or have misunderstood something that could overturn prevailing notions.

for general interest, the following is an excerpt from Secrets or the Pyramids pp. 212:

sexagesimal, Decimal and Quaternary Relations of Ancient Egytian Units of Measure:

60 palms = 1 canne

60 feet = 1 short schoenion

60 decapodes = 1 stadium

60 short schoenia = 1 herabic mile

60 plethra = 1 egyptian mile or minmute of degree

60 stadia = 1 grand scoenia

60 egytian miles = 1 degree of moira

60 grand scoenia = 1 sexagesime

60 sexagesimes = 1 circumference of the globe

10 egyptian feet = 1 decapode

10 egyptian cubits = 1 canne oe egyptian pole

10 orgyie or brasses = 1 short schoenioin

10 decapodes = 1 plethron

10 cannes =1 side of land unit of 100 cubits (aurora?)

10 short schoenia = 1 stadium

10 stadia = 1 egyptian mile

10 grand scoenia = 1 degree of longitude

4 fingers = 1 palm

4 palms = 1 foot

4 cubits = 1 orgyie or brasse

4 cannes = 1 short schoenion

4 sides of 100 cubits (aroura?) = 1 stadium

Edited by bom shankra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The AEs might not know our pi but we sure as hell recognize their pi

and we all end up with four equal slices by both pi

that's a good enough pi in my pi book

so you could say your Pi-hapy! (trans - Nilopolis) - sorry mate, I don't think it googles... :no:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so you could say your Pi-hapy! (trans - Nilopolis) - sorry mate, I don't think it googles... :no:

Nilópolis is a city and a municipality in Brazil, located in the Rio de Janeiro state's southwestern region, bordering São João de Meriti, Mesquita and Rio de Janeiro.

If it's Carnivale time, I be having no problems, be it googles or don't :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just out of interest, whos survey on the G.P. do you think is most accurate, Petrie, or cole? ....My corespondence with the "expert" that I mentioned a few posts above has hit a brick wall on this point. I'm inclined to believe Cole's was the best to date - he uncovered the remaining casing stones, and established exactly where 3 of the four corner sockets were, where as Petrie had difficulty with this. Petrie however probably spent longer on his triangulations, and had a larger theodolite(10 inch apparently ...ooh err) I believe it could measure a second of a degree, which is equivalent to the distances subtended by a dime at the distance of a mile! however, Petrie survey was 50 years earlier, and i might if I dare mention that he was a man of god, and possibly had lofty aspirations. His survey of the kings chamber is recognized as second to none, but the exact perimeter of the G.P.???

I couldn't really say. Petrie's is used most often by the fringe regarding pi and phi, however.

See, I'm more of an expert on fringe claims than I am on Ancient Egypt! LOL It's sort of a hobby.

On the theory of the palms and cubits, all I can say is Why? The A.E.s leveled the ground, aligned it to true north, but when it came to the slope they just said 22 in 28 will be fine?

The method for measuring angles was the same - so many fingers "in" for each cubit up. Given that an angle for the slopes of the sides had to be predetermined, and given that this was their method for measuring angles, I don't see what choice they had.

Also, as to Pi, I could give you pi to 5 decimals with string and a stick in the sand, so why not pi? what if some of the actual evidence is missing - you migh be missing out on something, or have misunderstood something that could overturn prevailing notions.

What is known is that at the time the Egyptians concept of fractions was limited to parts of a whole - exactly like their angle measuring. Pi cannot be expressed that way, as you know. As far as decimals, they never had such a system, so your method was not possible for them.

Harte

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sorry, not nilopolis near Rio,

this one:

from web page by a Alan watts

We will call the parallel that divides Lower from Upper Egypt the prime parallel and where it crossed the prime meridian was the geodetic centre of Archaic Egypt. The point was called Pi Hapy (or Nilopolis) and it lay on the southern tip of an island in the Nile which today is called Al Warraq. The prime observational centre of Heliopolis was established as close as possible to Pi Hapy and observations made there were, to all intents and purposes, the same as if made from Pi Hapy which was out of reach during the Nile floods.

It would seem that in ancient days Pi Hapy was considered to be the centre of the world. For instance the projection of one of the most significant of the pre-historic maps of the world – the so-called Piri Re’is map is centred on that point. Also several authors have noted that Pi Hapy occupies the centre of the habitable landmass of the world. Graham Hancock and Robert Bauval illustrated this in their book Keepers of Genesis. While Joseph Blumrich makes the point in the Spaceships of Ezekiel that the area of the Middle East encompassed by Egypt, Mesopotamia and Palestine was uniquely suited to a race with space potential who wanted a central base for their operations across the world. Zecharia Sitchin in When Time Began goes further and delineates the exclusion zone which he believes was used as a landing area for extraterrestrial spacecraft.

might be a 'fringie' carnival going on, I count 4 in one paragraph, some E.T.'s, and piri reis thrown in for good measure! (smoulder on that harte :o )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@'bom shankra'

You mean this Nilopolis :

Nilopolis or Delas was a city in Egypt situated on the left bank of the Nile, about forty-seven miles from Memphis.

It is a Roman Catholic titular bishopric and a suffragan of the metropolitan of Oxyrynchos, in Egypt.

According to Ptolemy (IV, v, 26) the city was situated on an island of the Nile in the Heraclean nome.

Eusebius ("Hist. eccl.", VI, xli) states that it had a bishop, Cheremon, during the persecution of Decius; others are mentioned a little later.

"The Chronicle of John of Nikiou" (559) alludes to this city in connection with the occupation of Egypt by the Muslims, and it is also referred to by Arabian medieval geographers under its original name of Delas. In the fourteenth century it paid 20,000 dinars in taxes, which indicates a place of some importance.

In the khedival period, Delas was a part of the moudirieh of Beni-Suef in the district of El-Zaouiet, and had about 2500 inhabitants of whom nearly 1000 were nomadic Bedouins.

from NationMaster

Nilopolis (114 words)

Article Table Of Contents

  1. [1] Settlement in Middle Egypt
  2. [2] Village in the Fayum

Nilopolis

(Νείλου πόλις/ Neílou pólis).

[German version]

[1] Settlement in Middle Egypt

Settlement in Middle Egypt, 13 km north of Banī Suwaif, Coptic Tilodj, modern Dalāṣ. The settlement is not known from ancient Egyptian times; N. was a diocesan town in the Christian period.

Jansen-Winkeln, Karl (Berlin)

[German version]

[2] Village in the Fayum

Village in the Fayum, near Soknopaiou Nesos, modern Tall ar-Ruṣaṣ, with an Isis cult. Known from numerous papyrus finds from th…

Citation

"Nilopolis." Brill’s New Pauly. Brill Online, 2013. Reference. 21 February 2013 <http://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/nilopolis-e823420>

from Brill Reference

from Word In Context

from Karanis :: Claremont Coptic Encyclopedia

I got a few hits from google books excerpts.

Edited by third_eye

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks 3rd Eye, one click further on from your world in context link lead me to this "The Religion of Ancient Egypt by W. M. Flinders Petrie" http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29010 free e-book!!!!

bom-shankra likes free-e books.

heres a few links I've refered to whilst weighing up Livio Stechhini:

http://www.ronaldbirdsall.com/gizeh/errata/Cole%20Survey.pdf coles report of the government survey 0f 1925

http://archive.org/details/operationscarrie01howa download the PDF of Howard Vyse's "Operations carried on at the pyramids of Gizeh in 1837: with an account of a voyage into Upper Egypt, and an appendix"

http://www.metrum.org/key/pyramids/index.htm Livio Stechhini's on line doc, "the pyramids of Egypt" (this link might be broken, check yourself).

also, there's a reference in stecchinis work to a book called Hamlets Mill: available free on-line (highly recomend).

Vyse's account (above) is good also, takes you on a journey back in time!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks 3rd Eye, one click further on from your world in context link lead me to this "The Religion of Ancient Egypt by W. M. Flinders Petrie" http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/29010 free e-book!!!!

bom-shankra likes free-e books.

heres a few links I've refered to whilst weighing up Livio Stechhini:

http://www.ronaldbir...Cole Survey.pdf coles report of the government survey 0f 1925

http://archive.org/d...onscarrie01howa download the PDF of Howard Vyse's "Operations carried on at the pyramids of Gizeh in 1837: with an account of a voyage into Upper Egypt, and an appendix"

http://www.metrum.or...amids/index.htm Livio Stechhini's on line doc, "the pyramids of Egypt" (this link might be broken, check yourself).

also, there's a reference in stecchinis work to a book called Hamlets Mill: available free on-line (highly recomend).

Vyse's account (above) is good also, takes you on a journey back in time!

I must say I recognize a few of those links :rofl:

Gimme your links to Hamlets Mill , any of them new research revised versions ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is known is that at the time the Egyptians concept of fractions was limited to parts of a whole - exactly like their angle measuring. Pi cannot be expressed that way, as you know. As far as decimals, they never had such a system, so your method was not possible for them.

Parts of a whole? you mean a fraction? ( I know you mean like 2 cubits, 14 fingers right... not 2 and a half.)

One other thing I meant to say was The idea of working out a geographical degree, which is ascribed to Eratosthenes. If you examine how it is suggested he did it, it is by no means a special technique. out of laziness here it is from Wiki:

Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth without leaving Egypt. Eratosthenes knew that, on the summer solstice, at local noon in the Ancient Egyptian city of Swenet (known in Greek as Syene, and in the modern day as Aswan) on the Tropic of Cancer, the sun would appear at the zenith, directly overhead (he had been told that the shadow of someone looking down a deep well would block the reflection of the Sun at noon). Using a gnomon, he measured the sun's angle of elevation at noon on the solstice in his hometown of Alexandria, and found it to be 1/50th of a circle (7°12') south of the zenith. Assuming that the Earth was spherical (360°), and that Alexandria was due north of Syene, he concluded that the meridian arc distance from Alexandria to Syene must therefore be 1/50 = 7°12'/360°, and was therefore 1/50 of the total circumference of the Earth. His knowledge of the size of Egypt after many generations of surveying trips for the Pharaonic bookkeepers gave a distance between the cities of 5,000 stadia (about 500 geographical miles or 927.7 km). This distance was corroborated by inquiring about the time that it takes to travel from Syene to Alexandria by camel. He rounded the result to a final value of 700 stadia per degree, which implies a circumference of 252,000 stadia. The exact size of the stadion he used is frequently debated. The common Attic stadion was about 185 m,[9] which would imply a circumference of 46,620 km, which is off the actual circumference by 16.3%; too large an error to be considered as 'accurate'. However, if we assume that Eratosthenes used the "Egyptian stadion"[10] of about 157.5 m, his measurement turns out to be 39,690 km, an error of less than 2%.[11]

now a gnomon is merely a sundial? (I thought it might be a sextant, which even then is merely a sight, pendulum, and a graduated scale), we've already established solstice was known to the cro magnums. noon, is the highest point the sun reaches in the sky, Due north doesnt't seem to be a difficult one for the A.E's, and distance between sites can even in a rudimentary way be calculated by a marching expidition. So what did they lack in the 4th dynasty that Erastosthenes had or knew? BTW, where did Eratosthenes work :- He was the third chief librarian of the Great Library of Alexandria. so as the conjecture goes, who knows what he might have perused in there and attempted to pass off has his own endeavour?

and greek maths etc, is the idea that pythagoras and others studied under egyptian priesthood a fallacy? If you know its not the case, please dish the dirt.

Just my respectful 3 cents worth.

Edited by bom shankra

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must say I recognize a few of those links :rofl:

Gimme your links to Hamlets Mill , any of them new research revised versions ?

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/hamlets_mill/hamletmill.htm#top

its interesting, the commentary by John Major Jenkins mentions the Maya, and says 21/12/2012 is just aroud the corner ( not sure if he's talking about the premier),.... he says that in general the book is a bit lacking when it comes to the Americas, especially in the light of recent investigations.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.