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CommunitarianKevin

Atheism as a religion

282 posts in this topic

You said you felt different before you read it

Where?

But it doesn't mean we should take those beliefs and peg them on to anyone else

Where did I say anyone has to believe this?

As you agree with ALL this author says on religion and atheism.. then .. then you telling me I do not make sense with anything I put forward that opposes all you posted.. is the same thing as saying - Not logical…Does not make sense.. AKA not logical.

There you go with your logic again…

Logic (from the Greek λογική logikē)[1] is the philosophical study of valid reasoning.[2] Logic is used in most intellectual activities, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, semantics, and computer science. It examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. In philosophy, the study of logic is applied in most major areas: metaphysics, ontology, epistemology, and ethics. In mathematics, it is the study of valid inferences within some formal language.[3] Logic is also studied in argumentation theory.[4]

Logic is not the same as “makes no sense”

You want to know why I said your post makes no sense?

Atheism only has one belief - No God or Gods exist.. that's it... Anything else they do in their personal lives is separate.

This is what the book is arguing against.

So if you do something every day or regular in life... scrap the title that describes what it is you are doing..and just call it all religious?

Like If if - Attend school every day taking lessons, follow teachers word and rules of the school etc ... You are not a student - You are religious... School is a religion...Education is not education it too is a religion ....scrap all titles and replace them with - Religion !!

If you cook and clean every day, you are not domestic or housewife... you are following a religion

If you play football every week...... Don't call it sport.. just religion..and act like that makes sense !!!

If you work every day, following work regulations, and you do it in a group....forget the job title... just call it religion....

If you use the bathroom every day, several times a day... That's a religion...In fact if you are unfortunate enough to have a problem with your bowels.. Go to the doctor and see what he can prescribe for your religious problem... !!!

The list goes on... Just scrap all titles and names given to describe each and every day...and call everything you do in life - A religion...And pretend to yourself it all makes sense !!

The book does not make this claim, meaning your post has nothing to do with the book, which means it does not make sense.

Me I wont entertain it...Atheism is not a religion.. I see no logic in classing it as such, just like the long list above I made is just plain stupid to call them all religions too...

You will not entertain it because you are dogmatic in your thinking. If there is no logic in it why don’t you logically break it down…and I will point out the flaws in your logic…

You are still trying to speak for many atheists regardless... Don't you think it is up to the atheist on their own personal level to make that decision and not yours to make for them? You brand so many of these people religious ..but it is not up to you is it? ...Do you Ike people sticking labels on to you all because they view you some way?

I am speaking for myself. If a rapist thinks they are a good person is it not on their own personal level to make that decision? Who are the courts to decide they should go to jail? You see no logic in my argument…is it not on my own personal level to decide what is a logical argument and what is not?

I never looked at your post about football to be honest.. I listed it in my own post because it has been listed it as one of my own examples... Further more... I was making a point, that just because something is like a religion in some way, does not mean it is religious.. Just like Atheism ...It does not make any of them religious in any way... So I was just making it as part of my own points...

So can we agree that some atheism LOOKS religious?

That's the problem... you have lumped so many Atheists with a label you chose to use because of what you now believe... This I see as wrong.. Atheists have the right to label themselves... Just like you have aright to label yourself what suits you... Who is anyone else to lump you with a lable you may not agree with?...

How many have I lumped? I said “some.” Tell me how many “some” is…

People get lumped into labels they do not agree with. That is how the world works. Most would “lump” you as a women, but I am sure you can find something offensive about that…

Me for a start.. The moment you saw my post not agreeing you were quick to tell me how I do not make sense, because your author says so.. You believe in what the author says so yes you have done

That is because you were not addressing anything the author had to say…see above…

There is nothing about what my points I made forceful or even arrogant...I am not dictating anything... That is what dogmatic means.

You cannot see that all I have done is post up how I see the idea of Atheism being a religion.. I simply disagree... You seem to be using the dogmatic label on to me all because you are not liking what i am saying..... You are lumping another personal belief you have of me on to me... All I am doing is telling you how I see it and how I do not agree. and listed my own points .. So no it is not dogmatic ... If you find you do not like my personal views on how I see it, that is your right, but it does not mean you can call my personal view point dogmatic all because you don't like it or agree. In fact you have called me dogmatic several times I do not appreciate it.. .. That is wrong And please do not say you like my views, if you liked them you would not call them dogmatic lol

I figured you did not like the term dogmatic…but you are…here is why…

Me I wont entertain it

You are so set in your beliefs, so sure of your knowledge, that you will not even consider anything else. You KNOW you are right just like a Biblical Literalist KNOWS the earth in 6,000 years old. You are not dogmatic because you disagree with me, you are dogmatic because you know you are right without considering anything else.

Neither is you now making it a personal thing... This only tells me you cannot handle stronger opposing view points made... Continue to make it personal will result in having a mod close it... You do not want that.. So it is wise not to keep making personal comments out of anger... I am not interested in how you feel about me..I am interested in sharing view points... Can you do that? If not and you still push out your personal remarks aobut me and what you feel about my post count and how I deal with things.. Then a mod will have to sort that out... I cannot waste time on any personal issues.. I am here to discuss the points only...( please note I said IF not )

Fair enough. But I am yet accept the arrogant view that you are making a stronger opposing view. I am not convinced of that because you are not even addressing the points in the book. Unless you are addressing the points in the book you are simply voicing your personal comments. If you want to discuss the points then you can read the quotes from the book I have posted and respond to them. Just copy one of the quotes and respond…that is discussing the points. Your opinion that atheism is not a religion is not addressing the points he makes. Prove his points wrong and then you can support your argument.

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But not all atheists are religious. Some take their atheist creed with a shrug, steering clear of the cultus, codes, and communities of their atheist kin.

This is in bold in the OP. I do not believe in God, yet I am also happily married to a Christian.

I'll quite happily concede that Strong Atheism is a religious belief. Anti-theism, I think, is much more debatable.

I don't have any statistics, but I'd be amazed if Strong Atheist's made up more than, say, 5% of all Atheists worldwide.

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I'll quite happily concede that Strong Atheism is a religious belief. Anti-theism, I think, is much more debatable.

I don't have any statistics, but I'd be amazed if Strong Atheist's made up more than, say, 5% of all Atheists worldwide.

I agree 100%. The 5% are the ones I am talking about.

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Posted (edited)

Where did I say anyone has to believe this?

I didn't say you did, it was again a point I was adding.. But you have tried arguing in another thread with others you note later in this thread you are just ignored, so you plump for offering some words by an author to get people to listen. as your OP at the start says no one will listen to you, . isn't that correct?

So your agenda seems to be trying to convince those you speak of and other to not only listen to you and your OP but to accept it... If you did not wish for anyone to accept it, you will not argue any points.. Do you see what I am saying? ..... It is all about the agenda.. and please if you feel I am wrong then so be it.. I did say your agenda seems to be.. Not saying that is you exact agenda..

If you do not wish for me to agree with anything you say.. then I think this conversion will soon be over.. don't you? If it drags on.. then the goal posts move back ..

Logic is not the same as "makes no sense"

Logical ideas are things that make sense to each of us.. If we feel something makes sense to us, then we see the logic in it..... Do you get what am saying now?

This is what the book is arguing against.

Read your own OP< it is not saying that... Your OP ( words from some author ) is saying -> There are many different types of atheist ...Some will gather in communities like a religion, and then there are others that hold their OWN personal views.. This is what I was saying to you about each atheist will have their own personal views.. it is their own choice... So I still say it is wrong to umbrella them under the one label ....We cannot speak for ANY atheist.. because each atheist has their personal views.. Your author in the OP is saying this too ..If you like I can show you exactly where the author of your OP is saying this? ..Well you wanted me to address your OP and here it is..

The book does not make this claim, meaning your post has nothing to do with the book, which means it does not make sense.

Those were just my own ideas.. I told you last time when you said the same thing to the same post... that my points are seperate.. I am allowed to make my own seperate points on how I feel Atheism is not a relgion nor is it like one In my own perosnal view.. I do not need to repeat that again...I shouldnt do anyway...

You will not entertain it because you are dogmatic in your thinking. If there is no logic in it why don't you logically break it down…and I will point out the flaws in your logic…

Not accepting the idea that atheism is like or is a religion and posting my own views is not dogmatic.. I have been over this.. you seem to repeat what was already posted... I gather you must be running out of ideas? I am not claiming I KNOW anything..I am stating what I personally beleive.. Completely different..

If a rapist thinks they are a good person is it not on their own personal level to make that decision?

Ok now you are resorting to taking this to other extremes.. You now are trying to use a rapist as an analogy? ....This is not working.. Rape is a crime done by a perosn that is called a rapist.. This in no way equates to following a spiritual path.. or a beleif ...I am speaking about the paths we lead our lives by.. whether they be - Religious, Non Religious, Spiritual.. and so on...Not how someone leads a life of crime.. If you wish to use an analogy.. try picking something that actually relates?

So back to what I was previously saying to you.. and to expan on that as you seem to be confused as to what I mean by labelling you something you may not like... If you for example chose to be a Christian..but you did not class yourself as a denominational Christian.. you prefer to call it - non denominational .. You are not going to agree with people saying you are a denominational Christian...You will point out that you are non denominational ... <--Just an example.. but you see what I am saying this time?

So can we agree that some atheism LOOKS religious?

Yes some may LOOK religious by their behaviour..but as a whole you cannot ever use the term - Atheism is a religion. .. That is all I was trying to tell you... Saying something LOOKS like something else, doesn't make it be something...

And if you look at the last line of your OP it is saying it is religious see below ..

. But the solution is religious nonetheless.

So here you can see that in your OP it i still saying Atheism is religious non the less.. And I completely disagree with that ..It is not religious .. It is all down to how the individual atheist see it for themselves.. Not up to you or anyone else to peg it as anything else.. You may not like my view... but I stand by it.. It is not dogmatic.. it is called having an opinion ..It would be dogmatic if I was telling you to accept it and forced it on you.. No.I am just sharing with you what I think of the entire concept... I was hoping you would at least notice that.

.

You are so set in your beliefs, so sure of your knowledge, that you will not even consider anything else. You KNOW you are right just like a Biblical Literalist KNOWS the earth in 6,000 years old. You are not dogmatic because you disagree with me, you are dogmatic because you know you are right without considering anything else

I BELIEVE I am right and I speak on my OWN behalf.. I do not KNOW it.. I just beleive it.. If I completely disagree, it is because of what I beleive is right or wrong... So no it is not dogmatic... You are over using the term dogmatic.. You should try thinking of something not so judgemental? .......... I can direct you to many of my older posts where I gladly point out many times to others - Belief is not the same as knowing.. To hold knowledge you must have the facts at hand.. I am famous for saying this over and over...

You just assume I think I know... but all you are doing here is running off on your own assumptions..Yyu hardly know me .. but you assume too much as it is... I cannot help but wonder if you even know what it is I follow? Meaning spiritual path?

Any CAPS or bold posts from me are only there to lay the emphasis.

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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I didn't say you did, it was again a point I was adding.. But you have tried arguing in another thread with others you note later in this thread you are just ignored, so you plump for offering some words by an author to get people to listen. as your OP at the start says no one will listen to you, . isn't that correct?

So your agenda seems to be trying to convince those you speak of and other to not only listen to you and your OP but to accept it... If you did not wish for anyone to accept it, you will not argue any points.. Do you see what I am saying? ..... It is all about the agenda.. and please if you feel I am wrong then so be it.. I did say your agenda seems to be.. Not saying that is you exact agenda..

If you do not wish for me to agree with anything you say.. then I think this conversion will soon be over.. don't you? If it drags on.. then the goal posts move back ..

My agenda is simple…

In other threads I say something like “some atheists are religious.” But then people ignore the word “some” and read it as “atheism is a religion.” They then proceed to argue with me about why it is not, a claim which I never made in the first place. I said SOME are and when I try to explain my point people just say “nope, sorry, it’s not a religion.” I figured if people ignore what I am saying maybe they will at least consider what a respected scholar says. He says that SOME atheists are religious, just like SOME Christians are literalists, just like SOME Muslims are terrorists. No one is claiming all or even most are, but this is all people can read.

Logical ideas are things that make sense to each of us.. If we feel something makes sense to us, then we see the logic in it..... Do you get what am saying now?

I know what you are saying, and I knew what you were saying before. What I am saying is that is not LOGIC. You are mistaking logic for common sense, which you suggest makes sense to each of us. Logic is an area of philosophy that can break down arguments and determine whether or not they are valid. I could give you an example but I suspect you will ignore it.

Read your own OP< it is not saying that... Your OP ( words from some author ) is saying -> There are many different types of atheist ...Some will gather in communities like a religion, and then there are others that hold their OWN personal views.. This is what I was saying to you about each atheist will have their own personal views.. it is their own choice... So I still say it is wrong to umbrella them under the one label ....We cannot speak for ANY atheist.. because each atheist has their personal views.. Your author in the OP is saying this too ..If you like I can show you exactly where the author of your OP is saying this? ..Well you wanted me to address your OP and here it is..

Yes, and some of types of atheists are religious. I feel like I am beating a dead horse…SOME atheists are religious. Atheists are not all the same, they are not all religious. What part of that do you not understand?

Those were just my own ideas.. I told you last time when you said the same thing to the same post... that my points are seperate.. I am allowed to make my own seperate points on how I feel Atheism is not a relgion nor is it like one In my own perosnal view.. I do not need to repeat that again...I shouldnt do anyway...

You are allowed to make you own points on how you feel about atheism. But if they are not related to the OP I will tell you they do not make sense. The OP was about an argument a scholar is making. The thread is not called Do You Think Atheism is a Religion? I would be much more interested if you addressed the points he made.

Not accepting the idea that atheism is like or is a religion and posting my own views is not dogmatic.. I have been over this.. you seem to repeat what was already posted... I gather you must be running out of ideas? I am not claiming I KNOW anything..I am stating what I personally beleive.. Completely different..

I keep repeating myself because you apparently do not read what I say, only what you want to hear. I will say it again since you keep avoiding the question. You are dogmatic because you do not even entertain other ideas. You are not dogmatic because you do not agree with me, you are dogmatic because you do not even consider what someone else has to say.

Ok now you are resorting to taking this to other extremes.. You now are trying to use a rapist as an analogy? ....This is not working.. Rape is a crime done by a perosn that is called a rapist.. This in no way equates to following a spiritual path.. or a beleif ...I am speaking about the paths we lead our lives by.. whether they be - Religious, Non Religious, Spiritual.. and so on...Not how someone leads a life of crime.. If you wish to use an analogy.. try picking something that actually relates? So back to what I was previously saying to you.. and to expan on that as you seem to be confused as to what I mean by labelling you something you may not like... If you for example chose to be a Christian..but you did not class yourself as a denominational Christian.. you prefer to call it - non denominational .. You are not going to agree with people saying you are a denominational Christian...You will point out that you are non denominational ... <--Just an example.. but you see what I am saying this time?

Sometimes extreme examples are the best way to get the point across. Obviously it is not a perfect analogy but I am showing that someone’s actions do not always fit what they believe. And rape was not always thought of as a crime, but I do not need to get into that debate.

I knew what you were saying the first time. The same thing comes up with whole Latino/Hispanic debate or the African-American/black debate. The point is that people do get lumped together, whether you like it or not and some terms are going to offend people. I am still entitled to my opinion based on an observation whether that person agrees with it or not. If you do not want to appear to be a Christian, do not walk around with a cross and a Bible, pretty simple.

Yes some may LOOK religious by their behaviour..but as a whole you cannot ever use the term - Atheism is a religion. .. That is all I was trying to tell you... Saying something LOOKS like something else, doesn't make it be something...

This is exactly the point I have been making over and over again…I NEVER SAID “ATHEISM IS A RELGION.” Why does everything keep thinking I said that? I never said “atheism is a religion.” I said some atheists are religious.

So here you can see that in your OP it i still saying Atheism is religious non the less.. And I completely disagree with that ..It is not religious .. It is all down to how the individual atheist see it for themselves.. Not up to you or anyone else to peg it as anything else.. You may not like my view... but I stand by it.. It is not dogmatic.. it is called having an opinion ..It would be dogmatic if I was telling you to accept it and forced it on you.. No.I am just sharing with you what I think of the entire concept... I was hoping you would at least notice that.

That is fine you do not agree. I do not expect you to agree. But if you want to have a meaningful conversation I would be interested in which of the authors points you disagree with. Do you disagree with his definition of religion? Do you disagree with his 4Cs of disagree that some atheists fit them? Those are the kind of questions I would be interested in discussing.

I BELIEVE I am right and I speak on my OWN behalf.. I do not KNOW it.. I just beleive it.. If I completely disagree, it is because of what I beleive is right or wrong... So no it is not dogmatic... You are over using the term dogmatic.. You should try thinking of something not so judgemental? .......... I can direct you to many of my older posts where I gladly point out many times to others - Belief is not the same as knowing.. To hold knowledge you must have the facts at hand.. I am famous for saying this over and over...

You just assume I think I know... but all you are doing here is running off on your own assumptions..Yyu hardly know me .. but you assume too much as it is... I cannot help but wonder if you even know what it is I follow? Meaning spiritual path?

Any CAPS or bold posts from me are only there to lay the emphasis.

I know you pretty well…try me…

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Posted (edited)

Most of you seem to be getting very irritated when I imply that some of atheism is a religion. I think most of you just ignore what I have to say, which is fair because I am just another dumbass on the internet. What I wanted to do instead was type up much of a chapter in Stephen Prothero's book God is not One. I am some idiot on the internet but here is someone that at least has a degree in the area. Here is his bio…

Stephen Prothero is a professor in the Department of Religion at Boston University and the author of numerous books, most recently God is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World--and Why Their Differences Matter (HarperOne, 2010) and the New York Times bestseller Religious Literacy: What Americans Need to Know (HarperOne, 2007). He has commented on religion on dozens of National Public Radio programs, and on television on CNN, NBC, MSNBC, FOX, and PBS. He was also a guest on "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewart, "The Colbert Report," and "The Oprah Winfrey Show." He was also the chief editorial consultant for the six-hour WGBH/PBS television series "God in America" (2010). A regular contributor to the Wall Street Journal and USA Today, he has also written for the New York Times, Slate, Salon, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and the Boston Globe. In 2010 he was invited to speak about religious literacy at the White House. Prothero received his BA from Yale in American Studies and his PhD in the Study of Religion from Harvard. He lives on Cape Cod, and he tweets @sprothero.

Let me know if you need any information on what exactly a religious scholar does. I have a feeling that many if you will simply ignore this but I hope at least a couple of you read it and think about it…

If you do not like what he has to say, there is his twitter account… tell him he is wrong. The following is not my opinion so do not tell me I am wrong, though I know you will…

I will try and keep this short so I will start with the section titled But Is It a Religion. I will simply be quoting from the book.

But Is It a Religion

"Some atheists, including attorney Michael Newdow, who took his complaint against the inclusion of God in the Pledge of Allegiance all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, believed that atheism is, in the words of novelist David Foster Wallace, an "anti-religious religion, which worships reason, skepticism, intellect, empirical proof, human autonomy, and self-determination. Most atheists, however, are offended by the suggestion that they, too, might be religious. For them, exhibit A is as simple and powerful as their denial God. But all sorts of religious people deny God, including many Buddhists, Confucians, and Jews." (p 323)

"Whether atheism is a religion depends, of course, on what actual atheists believe and do. So the answer to this question will vary from person to person, and group to group. It will also depend on what we mean by religion. Religion is now widely defined by scholars and judges alike…" (p 324)

"According to one common formula, members of the family of religions typically exhibit Four Cs: creed, cultus, code, and community. In other words, they have statements of beliefs and values (creeds); ritual activities (cultus); standards for ethical conduct (codes); and institutions (community). How does atheism stack up on this score?" (p 324)

"Atheists obviously have a creed. Some atheists deny that they believe anything. Is bald a hair color, they ask? But this denial is disingenuous. In fact, atheism is more doctrinal than any of the great religions. By definition, atheists agree on the dogma that there is no god, just as monotheists agree on the dogma that there is one. Belief is their preoccupation, as anyone who has read even one book on the subject can attest." (p 324)

"Cultus is trickier. Years ago I received a letter from a Boston-area chaplain's group accompanying an interfaith calendar…Among the holy days was the birthday of British philosopher Bertrand Russell. More recently, the Albany, New York-based Institute for Humanist Studies published a Secular Seasons calendar with more through accounting of atheists' High Holy Days, including Thomas Paine Day and Darwin Day. There is not much evidence, however, that atheists celebrate these days with any gusto or actually regard these exemplars as saints." (p 324)

"Most atheists do have a code of ethical conduct. In fact, one of the most frequent claims of the New Atheists is that they are the moral superiors of the old theists." (p 325)

"Although most atheists go it alone, some father into communities. There is a network of summer camps for atheist children called Camp Quest. Other prominent atheist organizations include Atheist Alliance International, American Atheists, British Humanists Association, Humanist Association of Canada, and the Germany-based National Council of Ex-Muslims…A U.S. group known as the United Coalition of Reason ran a billboard and bus campaign with ads that read, 'Don't believe in God? You are not alone.' Thought intended to raise visibility of atheists in the America public square, this campaign also trumpeted the availability of atheist communities…" (p 325)

"Using this functional approach, the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in 1961 that secular humanism functions like a religion, so secular humanists merit the same sorts of First Amendment protections that religious practitioners enjoy. In 2005, in a decision that irked atheists and Christians alike, a lower U.S. court held that, because atheism walked and talked like a religion, judges should treat it as such." (p 325)

"Onfray, the most radical and, after Hitchens, the most gifted New Atheist writer, detects the stench of religion in much atheism today… 'The tactics of some secular figures seem contaminated by their enemy's ideology: man militants in the secular cause look astonishingly like clergy. Worse: like caricatures of clergy,' he writes… Onfray seems to be channeling at least some of the spirit of German philosopher Arnold Ruge, a friend of Marx who refused to jump on the atheist bandwagon not because it was too radical but because it was too traditional: 'Atheism is just as religious as was Jacob wrestling with God: the atheist is no freer than a Jew who eats pork or a Mohammedan who drinks wine.' " (p 326)

"Are human beings homo religiosus? Is it human nature to grasp after the sacred? Yes, say those biologists who find evolutionary advantages in religious beliefs and practices. If they are right, if religion is an inescapable part of being human, then atheism would seem fated to take on the form of religion. But not all atheists are religious. Some take their atheist creed with a shrug, steering clear of the cultus, codes, and communities of their atheist kin. For others, however, atheism is, in the words of German theologian Paul Tillich, an 'ultimate concern.' It stands at the center of their lives, defining who they are, how they think, and with whom they associate. The question of God is never far from their minds, and they would never even consider marrying someone outside of their fold. They are, in short, no more free from the clutches of religion than adherents of the Cult of Reason in eighteenth-century France. For these people at least, atheism may be the solution to the problem of religion. But the solution is religious nonetheless." (p 326)

Hutton;

For me, living as an Atheist I want to start by saying I am not offended by the idea that in some cases atheism can be expressed in a way that mimics religion.

You bring in good points, ones I have not read before, so thank you .

(Waves to 8ty), I have followed a thread of 8tys on this topic before referencing Tillich and felt it made sense 'for me.'

I also have no issue with any Atheist that chooses to join a cause, only that it does no harm. I think, for Atheism, having a voice is a novelty. I also think at times the collective has made errors. And, I think they can find ways to stand for things that does no harm, that is respectful, and considerate of all paths. As an Atheist this is what I commit too and focus on. I am not part of a organization though.

This is what works best for me. I hope this helps in some small way.

Edited by Sherapy

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Posted (edited)

My agenda is simple…

In other threads I say something like "some atheists are religious."

I disagree, I do not think SOME are religious...

The point is that people do get lumped together, whether you like it or not and some terms are going to offend people. I am still entitled to my opinion based on an observation whether that person agrees with it or not. If you do not want to appear to be a Christian, do not walk around with a cross and a Bible, pretty simple.

I believe in allowing each individual speak for themselves.. It is their chosen path after all...Actually I couldn't care less what they call themselves.. It is their right not mine... ..

I know what you are saying, and I knew what you were saying before. What I am saying is that is not LOGIC. You are mistaking logic for common sense, which you suggest makes sense to each of us. Logic is an area of philosophy that can break down arguments and determine whether or not they are valid. I could give you an example but I suspect you will ignore it.

Common sense is not exactly the same as when we observe something put to us that is clear and adds up to make sense , easy clear pictures in our minds.. There is a bit of a difference... So if something we read or hear about that we later feel it makes perfect sense, then that is how one will see logic...

Where as common sense is like when IE - we know a stove is hot , we know not to touch it bare handed because it will burn us.. common sense will or should apply... I feel you are so confused on this .. So I wont push you any more on that..

Yes, and some of types of atheists are religious. …SOME atheists are religious. Atheists are not all the same, they are not all religious. What part of that do you not understand?

Oh I get you.. I just disagree with all you say on that... Meaning I do agree that some are religious.. I think they can speak for themselves ..So now what?

I know you pretty well…try me

Interesting, as you only joined the forum a couple weeks ago. and you now say you know me pretty well.. I find that rather...........Odd..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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- post removed -

No further comments..!! I just see copy and paste of my old posts there..

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To be fair, BM, there are anywhere from 2000 to 3000 guests at any given day on UM. I dare say some of those people have been reading UM, maybe for years, without registering.

I know I read everything for about six months before I joined and I already felt like some people here were my friends...and now we are. lol

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I do not follow the bile like I once did..

I'd like to think this isn't a typo.

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Most of you seem to be getting very irritated when I imply that some of atheism is a religion. I think most of you just ignore what I have to say, which is fair because I am just another dumbass on the internet. What I wanted to do instead was type up much of a chapter in Stephen Prothero's book God is not One. I am some idiot on the internet but here is someone that at least has a degree in the area. Here is his bio…

I'm not sure why you seem so obsessed with this subject! I will say this though, as was told to me by Sheri (Sherapy) when I first started posting in these forums. It would be nice if you posted things with a neutral point of view. Get your points across without making people feel you are angry with them. People might respond in a nicer fashion to your posts.

Stephen Prothero is a professor in the Department of Religion at Boston University and the author of numerous books, most recently God is Not One: The Eight Rival Religions That Run the World--and Why Their Differences Matter (HarperOne, 2010) and the New York Times bestseller Religious Literacy: What Americans Need to Know (HarperOne, 2007). He has commented on religion on dozens of National Public Radio programs, and on television on CNN, NBC, MSNBC, FOX, and PBS. He was also a guest on "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewart, "The Colbert Report," and "The Oprah Winfrey Show." He was also the chief editorial consultant for the six-hour WGBH/PBS television series "God in America" (2010). A regular contributor to the Wall Street Journal and USA Today, he has also written for the New York Times, Slate, Salon, the Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, and the Boston Globe. In 2010 he was invited to speak about religious literacy at the White House. Prothero received his BA from Yale in American Studies and his PhD in the Study of Religion from Harvard. He lives on Cape Cod, and he tweets @sprothero.

Degrees in this day and age don't necessarily mean much. For every person with a degree that is actually brilliant in their respected fields, there are many more tending bar. This man has self professed that he is "religiously confused". Should his words or opinion mean something to me or anyone else out there? They obviously do to you and others but to me he's just another man with an opinion. And from what I've read so far from him, it's not one that I give any value to.

Let me know if you need any information on what exactly a religious scholar does. I have a feeling that many if you will simply ignore this but I hope at least a couple of you read it and think about it…

If you do not like what he has to say, there is his twitter account… tell him he is wrong. The following is not my opinion so do not tell me I am wrong, though I know you will…

I will try and keep this short so I will start with the section titled But Is It a Religion. I will simply be quoting from the book.

I have asked you before to name some religious scholars that are Atheist and you simply ignored my request.....so are there any? Names please, as I would like to read a good bio on a few of them. Not saying you are wrong, but I would like to see you back up your assertions.

But Is It a Religion

"Some atheists, including attorney Michael Newdow, who took his complaint against the inclusion of God in the Pledge of Allegiance all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, believed that atheism is, in the words of novelist David Foster Wallace, an "anti-religious religion, which worships reason, skepticism, intellect, empirical proof, human autonomy, and self-determination. Most atheists, however, are offended by the suggestion that they, too, might be religious. For them, exhibit A is as simple and powerful as their denial God. But all sorts of religious people deny God, including many Buddhists, Confucians, and Jews." (p 323)

Again, most of this is just opinion. Maybe most Atheists including myself, don't like to be labeled or put in a box. If it weren't for religion, the phrase Atheist wouldn't even exist.

Some call Buddhism a religion but I look at it more as a philosophy. Same goes with Confucianism. The Jewish people are Jewish by blood, not necessarily by religion. So yes there can be Atheistic Jewish people.

"Whether atheism is a religion depends, of course, on what actual atheists believe and do. So the answer to this question will vary from person to person, and group to group. It will also depend on what we mean by religion. Religion is now widely defined by scholars and judges alike…" (p 324)

"According to one common formula, members of the family of religions typically exhibit Four Cs: creed, cultus, code, and community. In other words, they have statements of beliefs and values (creeds); ritual activities (cultus); standards for ethical conduct (codes); and institutions (community). How does atheism stack up on this score?" (p 324)

"Atheists obviously have a creed. Some atheists deny that they believe anything. Is bald a hair color, they ask? But this denial is disingenuous. In fact, atheism is more doctrinal than any of the great religions. By definition, atheists agree on the dogma that there is no god, just as monotheists agree on the dogma that there is one. Belief is their preoccupation, as anyone who has read even one book on the subject can attest." (p 324)

"Cultus is trickier. Years ago I received a letter from a Boston-area chaplain's group accompanying an interfaith calendar…Among the holy days was the birthday of British philosopher Bertrand Russell. More recently, the Albany, New York-based Institute for Humanist Studies published a Secular Seasons calendar with more through accounting of atheists' High Holy Days, including Thomas Paine Day and Darwin Day. There is not much evidence, however, that atheists celebrate these days with any gusto or actually regard these exemplars as saints." (p 324)

"Most atheists do have a code of ethical conduct. In fact, one of the most frequent claims of the New Atheists is that they are the moral superiors of the old theists." (p 325)

"Although most atheists go it alone, some father into communities. There is a network of summer camps for atheist children called Camp Quest. Other prominent atheist organizations include Atheist Alliance International, American Atheists, British Humanists Association, Humanist Association of Canada, and the Germany-based National Council of Ex-Muslims…A U.S. group known as the United Coalition of Reason ran a billboard and bus campaign with ads that read, 'Don't believe in God? You are not alone.' Thought intended to raise visibility of atheists in the America public square, this campaign also trumpeted the availability of atheist communities…" (p 325)

A lot of words to try to convey something that just isn't so. Any other labels you want to pin on us? This last bit is just ridiculous. Don't put me in a box and don't tell me what I think or how I behave.

"Using this functional approach, the U.S. Supreme Court concluded in 1961 that secular humanism functions like a religion, so secular humanists merit the same sorts of First Amendment protections that religious practitioners enjoy. In 2005, in a decision that irked atheists and Christians alike, a lower U.S. court held that, because atheism walked and talked like a religion, judges should treat it as such." (p 325)

Then why don't we get tax exempt status?

"Onfray, the most radical and, after Hitchens, the most gifted New Atheist writer, detects the stench of religion in much atheism today… 'The tactics of some secular figures seem contaminated by their enemy's ideology: man militants in the secular cause look astonishingly like clergy. Worse: like caricatures of clergy,' he writes… Onfray seems to be channeling at least some of the spirit of German philosopher Arnold Ruge, a friend of Marx who refused to jump on the atheist bandwagon not because it was too radical but because it was too traditional: 'Atheism is just as religious as was Jacob wrestling with God: the atheist is no freer than a Jew who eats pork or a Mohammedan who drinks wine.' " (p 326)

"Are human beings homo religiosus? Is it human nature to grasp after the sacred? Yes, say those biologists who find evolutionary advantages in religious beliefs and practices. If they are right, if religion is an inescapable part of being human, then atheism would seem fated to take on the form of religion. But not all atheists are religious. Some take their atheist creed with a shrug, steering clear of the cultus, codes, and communities of their atheist kin. For others, however, atheism is, in the words of German theologian Paul Tillich, an 'ultimate concern.' It stands at the center of their lives, defining who they are, how they think, and with whom they associate. The question of God is never far from their minds, and they would never even consider marrying someone outside of their fold. They are, in short, no more free from the clutches of religion than adherents of the Cult of Reason in eighteenth-century France. For these people at least, atheism may be the solution to the problem of religion. But the solution is religious nonetheless." (p 326)

You can line up all of the religious scholars you want.....none will convince me that Atheism is a religion.

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For others, however, atheism is, in the words of German theologian Paul Tillich, an ‘ultimate concern.’ It stands at the center of their lives, defining who they are, how they think, and with whom they associate. The question of God is never far from their minds, and they would never even consider marrying someone outside of their fold. They are, in short, no more free from the clutches of religion than adherents of the Cult of Reason in eighteenth-century France. For these people at least, atheism may be the solution to the problem of religion. But the solution is religious nonetheless.” (p 326)

Yep, I know some atheist that is so "unconcerned with God and religion" that they sit around and listen to Christian talk radio and look for stuff to squawk about. :rolleyes:

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I am a firm believer in god..but its a personal belief of my own.. I do not follow the bile like I once did..

OH good grief, how far did you dig back to find all that!? I remember her typing bible like that when her "b" key was messed up and that's been a long time, surely before you joined. You really went to some effort there, kinda strange don't you think?

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Posted (edited)

I know I read everything for about six months before I joined and I already felt like some people here were my friends...and now we are. lol

LOL, awww, that's cute. At least they were real live people! I feel like my sweet GPS lady voice is my friend. I have some brain spasm about directions and having that thing is like this security blanket, so comforting; she's always there, patient with me, reminds me early where to turn, she's my dear friend. :P

And yes PA, I know already before you start honking! There's a chat room! :lol::P

*grumbles off muttering something about how my GPS lady is much more interesting than another thread about atheism as a relgion* :w00t:

Edited by ChloeB

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Posted (edited)

re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

So yes it is a religion under option 2, 3 it can.

Just not a religion of a deity(option 1)

its black and white - religion is just 99%(not actual figure, dont take it litteral) is of a higher supernatural power.

but you can break a religion down to - 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

Atheist adher to science(belief system)

they use the scienific method to find answers(A practice)

there are many atheists (body of persons)

so by definition - Yes, but to an individual maybe no. dependings on ones view on religion - choose your option from the above and go with it.. your choose.

but this is my view on this.

kind Regards,

Me :)

Edited by The Id3al Experience

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Atheist adher to science(belief system)

they use the scienific method to find answers(A practice)

And so do Christians and others that follow deity-based religions.

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Posted (edited)

re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

So yes it is a religion under option 2, 3 it can.

Just not a religion of a deity(option 1)

its black and white - religion is just 99%(not actual figure, dont take it litteral) is of a higher supernatural power.

but you can break a religion down to - 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

Atheist adher to science(belief system)

they use the scienific method to find answers(A practice)

there are many atheists (body of persons)

so by definition - Yes, but to an individual maybe no. dependings on ones view on religion - choose your option from the above and go with it.. your choose.

but this is my view on this.

kind Regards,

Me :)

So what set of beliefs and practices do we Atheists adhere to? Atheism is NOT a religion!

Science is not a belief system!

Again, all we have in common is a lack of belief in a god.

Edited by Euphorbia

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Let's test my knowledge...

"I attended a catholic primary school ( like elementary school in the US )... then later was sent to an all girl catholic high school called - St Marys... It was strict...bible study was a must... and back then I enjoyed it...then I went to college...got more into science ect

*Snip*

Your male, yet you were sent to an all girl Catholic school? I'm confused.

I'm also confused as to why you didn't capitalize "Catholic".

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Your male, yet you were sent to an all girl Catholic school? I'm confused.

I'm also confused as to why you didn't capitalize "Catholic".

This is where he is quoting BM's past statements in other threads because he claims he knows her so well. :tu:

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This is where he is quoting BM's past statements in other threads because he claims he knows her so well. :tu:

Yes, I got PMed. I understand it now. Thanks

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I am not a dogmatic atheist. I am rather open for a possibility of god if someone provided a proof for his existence.

You misunderstood my post. I do claim that personal atheism is not ideological by default. But I also think that personal belief in god can be non-ideological as well. What is always ideological is religion and possibly socio-political manifestations of atheism.

Finally, I am ambivalent towards ideology itself. In my opinion, it is not always a negative term. In fact, some historical moments needed ideology in order to make things work.

Thank you for the clarification. It makes more sense to me. I did end my comment with a question mark, because while your words sounded as if they had a lot of emotional energy behind them, i wasnt sure how dogmatic you were in your views. Given the definition of ideological, I'm not sure how a (dis)belief can be any less ideological in nature than a belief, but that may be a difference in perception.

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Atheism is the pure and simple lack of beleif in a God. It is not a religion as is because a religion, as far as I know, is not defined by a single beleif into a specific thing. It is a system. Not one beleif. And I really dont think it necessarily requires the beleif in a God.

So considering those simple points, I think that as much as atheism isn't a religion, I also think that there is nothing that could prevent some atheists to form a religion.

A religion is more of a beleif system. So if you beleive that there is no God, you could still develop a system of beleif around it to form your own religious movement based on whatever you want. There will just be no God.

My thoughts.

Peace.

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Posted (edited)

re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Atheism and religion differentiates in the respect that it simply professes a lack of a belief in a god. It has nothing to do with the purpose, cause or nature of the universe, even though certain beliefs are generally associated with atheism. Theism is also separate from religion, as it only professes belief in a god, and a belief in a god doesn't necessarily indicate a belief in an almighty creator; we all have our own definition of a god.

Edited by Alienated Being

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OH good grief, how far did you dig back to find all that!? I remember her typing bible like that when her "b" key was messed up and that's been a long time, surely before you joined. You really went to some effort there, kinda strange don't you think?

Well as you probably guessed I had another account before. I stopped comming around about a year ago. I wanted to come back with a new name because I wanted to start on a clean slate with many of the Christians here. I used to be friends with BM. It really did not take any effort...I just logged on to my old account, selected our convo (because I never delete things,) copy, paste. Took all of 2 minutes. But that account is closed now.

re·li·gion   /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled[ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA

noun

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:

4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.

5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.

So yes it is a religion under option 2, 3 it can.

Just not a religion of a deity(option 1)

its black and white - religion is just 99%(not actual figure, dont take it litteral) is of a higher supernatural power.

but you can break a religion down to - 3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices

Atheist adher to science(belief system)

they use the scienific method to find answers(A practice)

there are many atheists (body of persons)

so by definition - Yes, but to an individual maybe no. dependings on ones view on religion - choose your option from the above and go with it.. your choose.

but this is my view on this.

kind Regards,

Me :)

Thanks for that. That is all I am trying to say. To some people, some atheists can be religious.

So what set of beliefs and practices do we Atheists adhere to? Atheism is NOT a religion!

Science is not a belief system!

Again, all we have in common is a lack of belief in a god.

See this is why I am so annoyed. I do not know how else to explain it...I never said atheism was a religion...

This is how I feel (let me use another example.)

Me: Some Muslims are terrorists

Whoever: Muslims are not terrorists!

Me: No I said some, not all...

Whoeever: No, Muslims are not terrorists!

Me: Yeah but 9/11...

Whoever: NO, MUSLIMS ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!

See how that can get annoying?

Atheism is the pure and simple lack of beleif in a God. It is not a religion as is because a religion, as far as I know, is not defined by a single beleif into a specific thing. It is a system. Not one beleif. And I really dont think it necessarily requires the beleif in a God.

So considering those simple points, I think that as much as atheism isn't a religion, I also think that there is nothing that could prevent some atheists to form a religion.

A religion is more of a beleif system. So if you beleive that there is no God, you could still develop a system of beleif around it to form your own religious movement based on whatever you want. There will just be no God.

My thoughts.

Peace.

I agree. Specifically with the bold part.

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It's pretty simple when you think about it. We are all born without belief in god(s) of all types, therefore we are born atheist by the definition of atheism. Religion is learned and taught, without this atheism would not exist. Religious people that become atheist are just returning to their original uncorrupted state of mind. So no, atheism is not a religion.

I'll quote a few things I have heard about it that I am sure everyone has probably heard by now.

Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby, or, atheism is a religion like abstinence is a sexual position. etc...

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