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Simbi Laveau

USDA needs bullets too

29 posts in this topic

The United States Forest Service isnt just about the USDA.... You are forgetting the Ranger/Law Enforcement Division...

The Forest Service has more than 600 ranger districts. Each district has a staff of 10 to 100 people under the direction of a district ranger, a line officer who reports to a forest supervisor. The districts vary in size from 50,000 acres (200 km2) to more than 1 million acres (4,000 km2). Most on-the-ground activities occur on ranger districts, including trail construction and maintenance, operation of campgrounds, and management of vegetation and wildlife habitat.

And...

The U.S. Forest Service Law Enforcement & Investigations unit (LEI), headquartered in Washington, D.C., is a federal law enforcement agency of the U.S. government. It is responsible for enforcement of federal laws and regulations governing national forest lands and resources. All Law Enforcement Officers and Special Agents Receive their training through Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC).

As the Name implies this division's operations are divided into two major functional areas:

1.Law Enforcement: uniformed high visibility enforcement of laws and

2.Investigations: special agents who investigate crimes against property, visitors and employees.

Uniformed Law Enforcement Officers (LEO) enforce Federal laws and regulations governing National Forest Lands and resources. As part of that mission LEO'S carry firearms, defensive equipment, make arrests, execute search warrants, complete reports and testify in court. They establish a regular and recurring presence on a vast amount of public lands, roads, and recreation sites. The primary focus of their jobs is the protection of natural resources, protection of Forest Service employees and the protection of visitors. To cover the vast and varied terrain under their jurisdiction, they use Ford Crown Victoria Police Interceptors, special service SUVs, horses, K- units, helicopters, snowmobiles, dirt bikes and boats.

Special Agents are criminal investigators who plan and conduct investigations concerning possible violations of criminal and administrative provisions of the Forest Service and other statues under the United States Code. Special agents are normally plain clothes officers who carry concealed firearms, and other defensive equipment, make arrests, carry out complex criminal investigations, present cases for prosecution to U.S. Attorneys, and prepare investigative reports. All field agents are required to travel a great deal and usually maintain a case load of ten to fifteen ongoing criminal investigations at one time. Criminal investigators occasionally conduct internal and civil claim investigations.

Link

So, in light of how many officers they have to cover so much ground... 300k rounds is pretty miniscule.

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Most government agencies have an enforcement arm as part of their mandate.

So we criticize them for not being efficient and wasting money and when they do something smart like "buy in bulk" we criticize them for that too.

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Hmmmm,will take under advisement,but I dont think they ever ordered this many at once before,that's why it sent up a red flag.

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I would check on the forest service rangers, some of whom are armed. That is a good reason to have bullets.

But no...this be the big bad government takeover ya know man? For some undisclosed reason instead of milking us for taxes they want to enslave us and get nuffin!

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Hmmmm,will take under advisement,but I dont think they ever ordered this many at once before,that's why it sent up a red flag.

Anything to back that up?

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Hmmmm,will take under advisement,but I dont think they ever ordered this many at once before,that's why it sent up a red flag.

They likely just got a good deal. Not like bullets go bad.

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How else are they going to fight those "cannibalistic mountain men grossly disfigured through generations of in-breeding." in Virginia?

:unsure2:

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Posted (edited)

Also USDA is in charge of elimination and disposal of diseased livestock( such as from madcow disease and other fun stuff) add that to the fact that the wolf, grizzly, and other animal reintroduction initiatives have gone waaaay better than expected (resulting in overlap in human/animal territory); along with the fact that rangers have to now be prepared to respond to "terrorist activity (because national parks tend to have large crowds of soft targets). Honestly I;d be more worried if they were NOT seriously arming themselves. But I guess because it's government it must be some evil and nefarious plot of world domination. (thin mustache and top-hat optional)

Simbi, I don;t want to come across as rude, but you don;t live in the U.S., correct? I simply ask because most of your posts about the U.S. seem to come across as incredible 2nd or 3rd hand accounts. And if your info is coming from the internet, well.... honestly the majority of the info is crap, it's just what happens in an anonymous environment.

Edited by wittyusernamefailed

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They likely just got a good deal. Not like bullets go bad.

You would think that...

along with the fact that rangers have to now be prepared to respond to "terrorist activity (because national parks tend to have large crowds of soft targets).

Now this is just pushing it. I don't want a forest ranger shooting off guns anywhere near me to protect me from "terrorist activities". This is just plain paranoia. Lets start arming janitors in malls now too, just in case there's "terrorist activity" there too then, right?

Forest rangers don't have any training in any sort of counter-terrorism related tactics, *especially* in the vicinity of large crowds of innocent bystanders. If they have time to train for this and keep their skills up to par, they're not doing their other jobs as forest rangers.

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And while 300,000 seems like a dramatic number, if you have 1,000 park rangers, enforcement officers, etc. who carry a sidearm, that's 300 rounds each - or six 50 round boxes. Consider that all of them have to practice and qualify at the range on a regular basis, that's not really a lot of ammo.

I can routinely blow through a couple of boxes of ammo on a Friday afternoon just plinking at targets.

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How else are they going to fight those "cannibalistic mountain men grossly disfigured through generations of in-breeding." in Virginia?

:unsure2:

Not only that, but when you're walking through the woods it's just fun shooting at stuff.

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Posted (edited)

Now this is just pushing it. I don't want a forest ranger shooting off guns anywhere near me to protect me from "terrorist activities". This is just plain paranoia. Lets start arming janitors in malls now too, just in case there's "terrorist activity" there too then, right?

Forest rangers don't have any training in any sort of counter-terrorism related tactics, *especially* in the vicinity of large crowds of innocent bystanders. If they have time to train for this and keep their skills up to par, they're not doing their other jobs as forest rangers.

Not really. Sure the terrorist probably isn't that big of priority but drugs are. Moveable drug labs and growing fields--Both of which can be occupied by armed people. I've found a couple of Pot fields in National forests around my area while backpacking. I'd prefer those members of the Ranger service be armed when walking into such camps/areas.

Poachers can be another big problem and they are/can be armed to the tooth and bone. Moon-shining also often takes place in our national parks in certain areas of the country.

There are lots of special ranger services that get all kinds of advanced tactical and SWAT training for precisely these reasons. For example; Florida Fish and Wildlife has a special operations group because of the large and dangerous drug situations run into in their parks areas. They get lots of special training;

You were kind of talking out of your behind there Stellar :lol:

Edit; some more about your Park Rangers in the US from Wikipedia;

Law enforcement: Law enforcement rangers have police powers and enforce national laws as well as park regulations. In some developing countries, the park rangers patrolling natural preserves may be heavily armed and function as paramilitary organizations against organized poachers or even guerrillas. In many other developing countries however, park rangers have no law enforcement authority, they don't carry firearms as they seek to achieve respect for nature by building good relationships with local communities and the visiting public. In units of the U.S. National Park System, law enforcement Rangers are the primary police agency; their services may be augmented by the US Park Police, particularly in the Washington, DC and San Francisco metropolitan areas. The U.S. National Park Service also has a section of "Special Agents" who conduct more complex criminal investigations. According to U.S. Department of Justice statistics, National Park Service Law Enforcement Rangers suffer the most number of felonious assaults, and the highest number of homicides of all federal law enforcement officers.[8]

Link

Edited by Copasetic

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Not really. Sure the terrorist probably isn't that big of priority but drugs are. Moveable drug labs and growing fields--Both of which can be occupied by armed people. I've found a couple of Pot fields in National forests around my area while backpacking. I'd prefer those members of the Ranger service be armed when walking into such camps/areas.

I dont. If the park rangers stumble upon that, then they should call the police.

There are lots of special ranger services that get all kinds of advanced tactical and SWAT training for precisely these reasons. For example; Florida Fish and Wildlife has a special operations group because of the large and dangerous drug situations run into in their parks areas. They get lots of special training;

At which point they're not being park rangers in the traditional sense, and instead are a sort of paramilitary organization which I do not classify as park rangers or anything of the sort. It is my opinion that type of group like that should belong to police forces. I disagree with forming these types of paramilitary groups within these departments. That's what the police is for.

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I dont. If the park rangers stumble upon that, then they should call the police.

That's what the police is for.

Police don't have jurisdiction in federal lands.

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Posted (edited)

I dont. If the park rangers stumble upon that, then they should call the police.

At which point they're not being park rangers in the traditional sense, and instead are a sort of paramilitary organization which I do not classify as park rangers or anything of the sort. It is my opinion that type of group like that should belong to police forces. I disagree with forming these types of paramilitary groups within these departments. That's what the police is for.

Like Ninja points out, police have no jurisdiction there--Couple with that very few police departments have the training to succeed in many of the environments of the national parks. Hence a special police force....The Ranger service, was created.

Edited by Copasetic

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Posted (edited)

Look, this is my opinion, and its not going to change simply because you quote jurisdiction. Policing should be left to police agencies. Few departments have the training to succeed in these environments? Then move these paramilitary groups ifrom the forest services and place them under a police agency. I just see something fundamentally backwards with having a group of armed people under a department of agriculture hunting down and battling drug runners. Thats not their job---or it shouldnt be. It just seems completely convoluted.

Edited by Stellar

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Look, this is my opinion, and its not going to change simply because you quote jurisdiction. Policing should be left to police agencies. Few departments have the training to succeed in these environments? Then move these paramilitary groups ifrom the forest services and place them under a police agency. I just see something fundamentally backwards with having a group of armed people under a department of agriculture hunting down and battling drug runners. Thats not their job---or it shouldnt be. It just seems completely convoluted.

And yet it is their job....It is exactly the reason Park rangers were created for (predating the Army rangers even)....For policing the national parks. You'd have known that had you clicked the link. Here is another for you; Link. Don't get all creationist on us Stellar--Inform yourself!

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And yet it is their job....It is exactly the reason Park rangers were created for (predating the Army rangers even)....For policing the national parks. You'd have known that had you clicked the link. Here is another for you; Link. Don't get all creationist on us Stellar--Inform yourself!

Lets not get condescending now, Copa. I understand what the rangers are for. What they are for is this: National Park Service Rangers are among the uniformed employees charged with protecting and preserving areas set aside in the National Park System by the United States Congress and/or the President of the United States.

Now

I understand
that some have been given the job of law enforcement and have paramilitary-style training. I believe that type of law enforcement should be limited to police agencies. They should not fall under any other "chain of command".

If I were to compare the park to a mall, itd be like the mall having its own police force capable of making arrests, and its own swat team that deals with any robberies/hostage takings in the mall. Thats an absurd amount of power. Their power should be more limited to that of a standard mall security guard. Canadian mall security guards, at least. Maybe down there you guys give your mall guards machine guns and rocket launchers incase of terrorist attacks...

We have park rangers here in Canada aswell. Ive never heard of Canadian park rangers having any sort of paramilitary subset and I believe the very idea is absurd.

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How else are they going to fight those "cannibalistic mountain men grossly disfigured through generations of in-breeding." in Virginia?

:unsure2:

"I may be a mountain man...and I might be grossly disfigured through generations of inbreeding, but I AM NOT a cannibal! Wait, cannibals are people who eat cannon balls right? Cause, I never did that. I stick to lost hikers. The chubby ones anyway, the ones that do it full time are too stringy, I have standards you know!"

As for having a group of people trained specifically for dealing with problems in National Forests, it only makes sense. It isn't like a forest ranger is going to be able to dial 911 and get a hold of the local cities' police; they would get lost and confused out in the forest or swamps or whatever. You have to have people that are specifically trained to handle those kinds of events. Considering the number of druggies setting up shop out in the forest, it makes sense to have them available.

People are getting too wound up over organizations that offer policing type services buying bullets. They need them, they practice with them, and when the time comes they can use them to stop criminals. There are a lot of people who appear to prefer having Bobbies running around with a billy club...that won't cut it here. When the bad guys have big guns, you have to be able to take care of them.

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"I may be a mountain man...and I might be grossly disfigured through generations of inbreeding, but I AM NOT a cannibal! Wait, cannibals are people who eat cannon balls right? Cause, I never did that. I stick to lost hikers. The chubby ones anyway, the ones that do it full time are too stringy, I have standards you know!"

As for having a group of people trained specifically for dealing with problems in National Forests, it only makes sense. It isn't like a forest ranger is going to be able to dial 911 and get a hold of the local cities' police; they would get lost and confused out in the forest or swamps or whatever. You have to have people that are specifically trained to handle those kinds of events. Considering the number of druggies setting up shop out in the forest, it makes sense to have them available.

People are getting too wound up over organizations that offer policing type services buying bullets. They need them, they practice with them, and when the time comes they can use them to stop criminals. There are a lot of people who appear to prefer having Bobbies running around with a billy club...that won't cut it here. When the bad guys have big guns, you have to be able to take care of them.

Agreed and while it's kind of fun to talk about battling inbred mountain men, park rangers and fish & game officers have some of the highest on-the-job mortality rates of any branch of law enforcement.

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Posted (edited)

Heh, most of the group I hang out with goes camping a lot in various places. One of our sayings that's kind of a joke now is one person asks "Why do we listen to Rangers?" and everyone calls back, "Because Rangers have guns." It's the truth, but kind of funny.

I for one don't find it shocking at all that park police carry guns, never have. That's kind of what Rangers are, police that their "beat" is a chunk of parkland. Considering it's ammo to spread out over hundreds of districts hosting thousands of Rangers that work millions of acres of land, 300,000 bullets does not strike me as much.

I have no idea where to even look for these kinds of numbers, but I wonder how many bullets a state purchases in it's entire for it's regular police force in a year.

Edited by rashore

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Look, this is my opinion, and its not going to change simply because you quote jurisdiction. Policing should be left to police agencies. Few departments have the training to succeed in these environments? Then move these paramilitary groups ifrom the forest services and place them under a police agency. I just see something fundamentally backwards with having a group of armed people under a department of agriculture hunting down and battling drug runners. Thats not their job---or it shouldnt be. It just seems completely convoluted.

Tell that to the people of Munising Michigan. They have 1 cop for a million acres national forest. Without the help of the rangers up there it would be smuggle alley.

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I dont. If the park rangers stumble upon that, then they should call the police.

and if the grow-opers dont give them that option? :rolleyes:

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and if the grow-opers dont give them that option? :rolleyes:

Oh please. By that logic, any hiker or camper in the park should carry all sorts of guns just incase they stumble upon a grow op aswell.

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