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Ben Masada

But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?

641 posts in this topic

I have learned the Bible, and it is a farce.

I will leave you alone if you desire: it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here.

I have plenty to say, but it won't change the fact that you will come back with snide, ignorant, and presumptuos remarks:

IE: All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context. Presumptuos

IE: I have read the Bible, in context: many times. None of the "prophecies" which you cited, are, in fact, prophecies. In fact, if you had read the book of Isaiah, you would see that the "suffering servant" was in fact the nation of the Israelites, who were brought out of Egypt.

Isa 53:7

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Act 8:32

The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Act 8:33

In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Act 8:34

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Act 8:35

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Last I knew Jesus wasn't a nation as you claim, of course that the ignorant part I mentioned concerning you.

And then there is your snideness:

it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here

And therein was why I wanted you to leave me alone, I didn't want to argue.

But I will leave you with the last word, gloat in them.

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I have plenty to say, but it won't change the fact that you will come back with snide, ignorant, and presumptuos remarks:

IE: All they've succeeded in showing so far is that you probably haven't read the book of Isaiah in context. Presumptuos

IE: I have read the Bible, in context: many times. None of the "prophecies" which you cited, are, in fact, prophecies. In fact, if you had read the book of Isaiah, you would see that the "suffering servant" was in fact the nation of the Israelites, who were brought out of Egypt.

Isa 53:7

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Act 8:32

The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

Act 8:33

In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Act 8:34

And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Act 8:35

Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Last I knew Jesus wasn't a nation as you claim, of course that the ignorant part I mentioned concerning you.

And then there is your snideness:

it only serves as clear confirmation that you have no convincing argument to present here

And therein was why I wanted you to leave me alone, I didn't want to argue.

But I will leave you with the last word, gloat in them.

The New Testament wasn't written at the same time as the Old Testament. Thus, it is clear that the authors of the books of the New merely mimicked or latched onto whatever scripture they could to try and give their new religion an air of legitimacy: which it lacked, and continues to lack. You don't prove that your book is true by quoting a passage in the book that says that it's true. That's absurd.

One good question you probably haven't thought of: when Jesus died, according to the New Testament, all of the dead came back to life. Why on Earth didn't a single person on the planet ever make any mention of this? The book also says that these dead people spoke to their living relatives. Why didn't anyone write down what they said? The whole story has the air of sheer fiction--and until a shred of tangible evidence surfaces which shows it to be anything otherwise, it is clearly a fictional story.

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Posted (edited)

BUT REALLY, WHY WAS JESUS CRUCIFIED?

Since it's the greatest story ever told, Jesus was a tragic character in life -- the narrative life of Jesus. A tragic hero always dies at the end of a good book. "Vox in Rama."

Edited by braveone2u

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Posted (edited)

As believers celebrate his resurrection I can say that my Lord gave Himself to be killed. No one took His life. The politics of his execution have been used down the centuries to spread hate and violence, which is what the deceiver does with all good acts if he can.

The story on this Easter is not how He died but that HE IS RISEN! :yes:

I have got a couple of questions about this post of yours above. The first is about Jesus' resurrection. I would be more than ready to change my views if a believer in Jesus' resurrection would show me in the NT who was ever an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection. What I have found so far is that even the angel of Matthew, when he came down and removed the stone at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb had already been empty. I mean, even the angel was cheated out of being an eyewitness. Then, Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.

The second question is about what you claim that Jesus gave himself up to be killed because no one would take his life. What I find in my reading of the gospels is that soon after his supper with his disciples in the Upper Room, he went to the Gethsemane, where he prayed three times asking God to remove his fate to die on the cross. And that when he realized that he had no answer to his prayers, he lost patience and said, "be Thy will done but not mine." Not mine!!! What was his will then? I understand that he walked the via dolosa against his will. In other words, that he was forced to die on the cross. How to die against one's will is to give oneself up to be killed? It makes no sense to me.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Posted (edited)

To fulfill PSALMS 22 of the Jewish Tanakh of the Masoretic Text. Note: this was written by King David 970 years before Jesus

was hung on a cross and is in every Jewish Bible to this day.

Psalms 22 shown below was written by King David almost 1,000 years before the birth of Jesus.

If you read all of Psalms 22 you see were it also states, Stand in awe of him all you sons of Israel, sons of Jacob. Stand in Awe of who? The one who was killed in Psalms 22 as written by King David.

Psalms: Chapter 22

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? why are you so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but you hear me not; and in the night season, I am not silent.

3 But you art holy, O thou that inhabits the praises of Israel.

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and you did deliver them.

5 They cried unto you, and were delivered: they trusted in you and were not forsaken.

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

7 All they that see me laugh and scorn me: they shoot out the lip, they shake their head, saying,

8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

9 But you are he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mothers breasts.

10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mothers belly.

11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaves to my jaws; and you have brought me into the dust of death.

16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have surrounded me: they have pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my garment.

19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

21 Save me from the lions mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

23 You that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all you the seed of Israel.

24 For he has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

25 My praise shall be of you in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

28 For the kingdom is the Lords: and he is the governor among the nations.

29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

FOR MORE - CLICK HERE

Who do you say Jesus is?

John 12:44-45

44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

Isaiah 45-21-23

21 Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the Lord? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me.

22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.

23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.

John 14:9

9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 20:26-28

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!" 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing." 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"

http://propheticseasons.wordpress.com/

Yes, I read Psalm 22 and, in my mind, I found nothing to tell me that it is a reference to Jesus. Perhaps you do because of your Christian pre-conceived notions. Then, according to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the time, thousands of Jews were crucified by the Romans in the very same manner. No difference among them for the Romans did not have a different method to crucify a Jew from another. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that the Hellenistic guys who wrote the gospels plagiarized Psalm 22 to apply it to Jesus?

Now, to use Isaiah talking about God Himself and apply it to Jesus, I believe that if Jesus could think of it, he would turn in his grave. Why? Because he was a Jewish man and, according to Judaism, there is no such a thing as the Greek myth of the demigod who is the son of a god with an eartly woman. Read Isaiah 46:5. "Who would you compare Me with as an equal or match Me against as though we were alike?" It means that God is absolutely One and there is no other. Jesus himself affirmed that truth in Mark 12:29.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Hi Ben,

Your theory fails in one key area. You say that some "pious forgery" was required in order to justify Constantine in 312 AD. The problem for your theory is that the texts of the New Testament were written more than two centuries earlier.

I pass that "problem with my theory" as you claim above, to the theory of the translators of the the NAB version, Saint Joseph's edition, members of the Catholic Biblical Association of America, sponsored by the Bishops' Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, with the imprimatur of Pope John Paul VI. They show the writing dates for the gospels on their prefaces, at about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone, with the gospel of John already in the beginning of the 2nd Century.

Ben

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Well, traditionally jesus died so that we might live. Jesus had at least three roles on earth. One was a template for how man can think and live. Second was as a teacher of wisdoms and truths.

Third, but perhaps most important in christian theology, he was the sacrificial lamb whose blood washed away original sin and cleansed us all. (Every human being; past present and future)) His sacrifice allowed each one of us to stand as "clean skins", clothed in his righteousness, and be judged on our own individual hearts, and minds and deeds.

Do you believe that Jesus was a loyal Jewish member of the Jewish community? I hope you do. How could he go against the Scriptures that say that "by

his own fault only shall a man die?" (Exo. 32:33 and Jer. 31:30) This, as far as I am concerned, means that no individual can die for another.

Ben

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There is circumstantial evidence in the story that Jesus knew he was going to be crucified even planned it.

As to the motivations of the Romans....well.... It's business as usual . Descidents are not alliowed in totalitarian regimes.

How did Jesus plan to be crucified, if I may ask, by praying for three times in the Gethsemane not to die on the cross? For three times he asked God

to remove that cup so that he should not drink from it. As he realized he was waisting his time with no answer to his prayers, he said, "be Thy will

done and not mine." Any one can see that it was not his will to walk the via dolorosa. I wonder how one is prevented from seeing in such a light.

Ben

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I have got a couple of questions about this post of yours above. The first is about Jesus' resurrection. I would be more than ready to change my views if a believer in Jesus' resurrection would show me in the NT who was ever an eyewitness to Jesus' resurrection. What I have found so far is that even the angel of Matthew, when he came down and removed the stone at the end of that Sabbath, the tomb had already been empty. I mean, even the angel was cheated out of being an eyewitness. Then, Jesus was a Jewish man, and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection.

The second question is about what you claim that Jesus gave himself up to be killed because no one would take his life. What I find in my reading of the gospels is that soon after his supper with his disciples in the Upper Room, he went to the Gethsemane, where he prayed three times asking God to remove his fate to die on the cross. And that when he realized that he had no answer to his prayers, he lost patience and said, "be Thy will done but not mine." Not mine!!! What was his will then? I understand that he walked the via dolosa against his will. In other words, that he was forced to die on the cross. How to die against one's will is to give oneself up to be killed? It makes no sense to me.

Ben

Since there were no eyewitnesses I guess your view will have to remain unchanged. Jesus answer to those who would have proof: John 20:28

Jesus was unique in all human history in that while He was born a man into the tribe of Judah He was also God. He would not be expected to be limited to the belief of any human since He knew the end from the beginning.

He was human. He had some concept from seeing the horror of a Roman crucifixion during His life of what torment he could expect. Does it really seem unbelievable that a human would want to escape such pain? It is all the more a sacrifice when you see it in those terms.

I say he gave His life because He could have summoned a legion of angels to defend Himself if He chose to. It was ALWAYS within His power to refuse such a painful, shameful death at the hands of His own creation. His struggle as a human wanting to avoid the pain of crucifixion confirms his humanity. His change of heart and submission to His love of His creation confirms His Deity...at least for me. Ben, I try not to over complicate faith. It's a fool's errand to try to convince a person who has decided that God is fully expressed or understood in religion. I'm not even sure why I believe. I just know that I can do no other thing. I'm as unable to disbelieve as some are to believe. I wish them a good journey and that humanly acquired wisdom will fulfill them because if it doesn't, there will be nothing else to build "hedges against the night". That was a phrase from a Stephen king book. It sums up for me an idea of finding security against loneliness and despair.

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Jesus of Nazareth was crucified for sedition against the Roman Empire. Enough said.

There! And I can't agree with you more. But IMHO, Jesus was arrested to be crucified because some morons among his followers, were acclaiming him

king of the Jews in public at the entrance of Jerusalem of all places. By provoking Pilate, they caused his arrest and the opening of the procedures

to the crucifixion. What could Pilate do with someone being acclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province which was the Land of Israel at the time?

IMO, Jesus must have felt kind of embarrassed with such an ovation which would cost his life. No wonder Pilate nailed on the top of his cross that plaque with the verdict for Jesus' crucifixion.

Ben

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Jesus was crucified because of the misunderstanding of the word "Messiah." Messiah could mean king of the Jews (what the Romans thought) or God's annointed one. The Romans had a problem with someone proclaiming themself king...

Yes, I agree with you. How could he not arrest a Jew being proclaimed king of the Jews in a Roman province? Those who addressed Jesus as the Messiah

and king of the Jews were and still are the responsible ones for that fiasco. As you know, today they still do as I watch them in TV evangelism.

Ben

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Posted (edited)

Is it not true that many Jewish people not believe that Jesus was ever crucified ? Like the OP ?

We do believe that Jesus was crucified. What we find hard to believe is that he really died. He might have survived the cross. How? According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the 1st Century, many of the crucified by the Romans would linger on their crosses for even up to three or four days, passing out and back till death would eventually catch up with them.

According to the gospels, Jesus was taken off his cross only after a few hours by Joseph of Arimathea. As this, probably, realized that Jesus was still alive, in order not to call unnecessary attention, he laid Jesus on his walk-in tomb and returned after an hour or two with his men to remove him to another place where he could take care of his wounds with the help of Nicodemus, who had brought about 100 pounds of medication for that purpose. That's in John 19:39.

Then, we have Luke in Acts 1:3 saying that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples for 40 days, with many covincing proofs that he was alive, he said that it was "after his passion or suffering". After one's suffering is no proof that one even died, let alone that he resurrected.

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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We do believe that Jesus was crucified. What we find hard to believe is that he really died. He might have survived the cross. How? According to Josephus, a famous Jewish Historian of the 1st Century, many of the crucified by the Romans would linger on their crosses for even up to three or four days, passing out and back till death would eventually catch up with them.

According to the gospels, Jesus was taken off his cross only after a few hours by Joseph of Arimathea. As this, probably, realized that Jesus was still alive, in order not to call unnecessary attention, he laid Jesus on his walk-in tomb and returned after an hour or two with his men to remove him to another place where he could take care of his wounds with the help of Nicodemus, who had brought about 100 pounds of medication for that purpose. That's in John 19:39.

Then, we have Luke in Acts 1:3 saying that when Jesus started appearing to his disciples for 40 days, with many covincing proofs that he was alive, he said that it was "after his passion or suffering". After one's suffering is no proof that one even died, let alone that he resurrected.

Ben

Are you certain you have analyzed the information correctly?

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Isa 53:7

He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Isa 50:6

I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

Psa 22:16

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Psa 69:21

They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Psa 50:21

These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

Psa 50:22

Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.

Joh 12:44

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

Joh 12:45

And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

Joh 1:10

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Gen 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Happy Easter Jesus.

And of course, Christian pre-conceived notions won't allow you to think that all the above were plagiarized by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels and applied them to Jesus. Do you think Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans? I bet you do. You ought to read Josephus about the thousands of Jews the Romans crucified in the Land of Israel.

Ben

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I pass that "problem with my theory" as you claim above, to the theory of the translators of the the NAB version, Saint Joseph's edition, members of the Catholic Biblical Association of America, sponsored by the Bishops' Committee of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine, with the imprimatur of Pope John Paul VI. They show the writing dates for the gospels on their prefaces, at about 50+ years after Jesus had been gone, with the gospel of John already in the beginning of the 2nd Century.

Ben

That's a fairly approximate date for the four gospels (Mark circa 70 AD, 40 years after Jesus and the earliest of the gospels, compared to John, circa 90-125 AD and the latest of the four gospels). Perhaps I misunderstood something in your opening post. You mentioned Constantine in 312 AD and how he engaged in "pious forgery". If you agree with a 1st Century dating of the gospels (John, possibly early 2nd Century), in what way did Constantine engage in said pious forgery? Your example brings up both Pontius Pilate and the author of Acts, but both of these accounts come from 1st Century texts, so forgive my confusion).

Thanks for any information you might be able to add for me :tu:

~ Regards,

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Posted (edited)

And of course, Christian pre-conceived notions won't allow you to think that all the above were plagiarized by the Hellenists who wrote the gospels and applied them to Jesus. Do you think Jesus was the only Jew crucified by the Romans? I bet you do. You ought to read Josephus about the thousands of Jews the Romans crucified in the Land of Israel.

Ben

I have read Josephus and a ton of other historical works on the Romans, The Jews and many of the other middle Eastern societies of the time, and I believe you are labouring under a false perception in regards to crucifixion as a punishment.

Someone who is crucified can die within minutes if done correctly, others take hours, and when done with intent, can be prolonged for days.

My question remains, Are you certain you have analyzed the information correctly?

Edited by Jor-el

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A careful reading of the New Testament reveals that Jesus permitted the crucifixion because his Father wanted him to permit it. The real question is why did his Father want Jesus to submit to the crucifixion? I can think of a couple reasons:

  • To prove that resurrection is real
  • To let Jesus experience a painful death alone (his Father didn't comfort him on the cross), because in pain man is perfected, even the Son of man
  • To earn the right to represent God and receive all authority from his Father to take charge of us.

Notice I leave out "to die for our sins", because that makes no sense (believe me, I searched the entire bible). However, he did say that his death was for remission of sin, so we have to hold this in tension. Nevertheless, it's very clear from the New Testament that what Jesus was offering us was the greatest gift from God we could receive: eternal life, forgiveness of sins, and pure joy in the world the come. To whatever degree Jesus' death helped him and us in that regard, we should be grateful.

How do you know that God wanted to permit the crucifixion on Jesus if there was no answer to Jesus prayers for three times in the Gethsemane not to be crucified? Jesus prayed three times because it was not his will to be crucified. To prove resurrection? How could resurrection be proved if it was against the Scriptures? Jesus was Jewish and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. If Jesus needed pain to be perfect, it means that he was not perfect. If he was not perfect, he was a sinner. Is it what you want us to understand?

Jesus' death could not have been for the remission of sins because, according to Exodus 32:33 and Jeremiah 31:34, no one can die for the sins of another. And with regards to eternal life, Jesus could not have offered what he did not have. The attribute of eternal life belongs with God only. The attribute of eternal life was not granted to man. This truth is in Genesis 3:22 when Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever, which they were not supposed to.

Ben

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Jesus was crucified because he was the Paschal Lamb, that would be slaughtered so that others through him might live.

The Passover Lamb or the Paschal Lamb is the sacrifice that the Torah mandates to be brought on the eve of Passover, and eaten on the first night of the holiday with bitter herbs and matzo. According to the Torah, it was first offered on the night of the Israelites' Exodus from Egypt. The blood of this sacrifice sprinkled on the door-posts of the Israelites was to be a sign to God, when the angel of death passed through the land to slay the first-born of the Egyptians that night, that he should pass by the houses of the Israelites.

That the Paschal Lamb prefigured symbolically Jesus Christ, "the Lamb of God", who redeemed the world by the shedding of His blood and in so doing protects us against the judgement of God for our sins.

There are no innocents , not even Pilate who washed his hands, the most cowardly of acts. No-one is lessening his guilt, to the contrary it heightens it. Woe to the man who can do good, and does not, he is as much the murderer as the man who does the killing.

As for the church of later ages, their guilt is theirs to carry for all eternity, they were seduced by power in this world, forgetting that God is the ruler of all, not they. That seduction was deep, for they were seduced by power, and power corrupts all it touches.

And where is it written that Jesus was the paschal lamb, because, at his time there was no NT, which started appearing 50+ years after Jesus had been

gone. And then, why Jesus and not the thousands of Jews crucified just like Jesus by the Romans?

Ben

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Luk_24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

If they were, and are to be fulfilled, some of the Psalms are indeed prophesies. Learn your Bible, and leave me alone.

Not so fast, my friend! You have first to show me where in Moses and the prophets is it written about Jesus. Perhaps according to your Christian pre-

conceived notions? That doesn't count. Reason is a better option.

Ben

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Posted (edited)

How do you know that God wanted to permit the crucifixion on Jesus if there was no answer to Jesus prayers for three times in the Gethsemane not to be crucified? Jesus prayed three times because it was not his will to be crucified. To prove resurrection? How could resurrection be proved if it was against the Scriptures? Jesus was Jewish and Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. If Jesus needed pain to be perfect, it means that he was not perfect. If he was not perfect, he was a sinner. Is it what you want us to understand?

Jesus' death could not have been for the remission of sins because, according to Exodus 32:33 and Jeremiah 31:34, no one can die for the sins of another. And with regards to eternal life, Jesus could not have offered what he did not have. The attribute of eternal life belongs with God only. The attribute of eternal life was not granted to man. This truth is in Genesis 3:22 when Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the tree of life and live forever, which they were not supposed to.

Ben

Excuse me but let me ask, again, where does it state that it was not his will to be crucified?

The Jews believe in bodily resurrection, they did so then, they do so now.

Exodus 32:33

The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book.

Jeremiah 31:34

No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

And I wonder where you get from the following two verses you quotes, that no man can die for another?

And yet again where do you get that they were not supposed to eat from the tree of life, the only tree under prohibition was the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil?

According to the Gospels, Jesus equated himself with divinity, he was divine, as such he has the power that God had, to forgive sins, he did so on a number of occasions, to the amazement of the Pharisees themselves.

Edited by Jor-el

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Since it's the greatest story ever told, Jesus was a tragic character in life -- the narrative life of Jesus. A tragic hero always dies at the end of a good book. "Vox in Rama."

Good Braveone, it means that the Land of Israel, at the time of Jesus was crowded with heroes, thousands of them, who were crucified just like Jesus.

Ben

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And where is it written that Jesus was the paschal lamb, because, at his time there was no NT, which started appearing 50+ years after Jesus had been

gone. And then, why Jesus and not the thousands of Jews crucified just like Jesus by the Romans?

Ben

John the Baptist knew it, he stated it twice...

John 1:29-36

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

35 The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36 When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, “Look, the Lamb of God!”

What exactly can this mean beside the paschal lamb, which is sacrificed on the eve of Passover?

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Since there were no eyewitnesses I guess your view will have to remain unchanged. Jesus answer to those who would have proof: John 20:28

Jesus was unique in all human history in that while He was born a man into the tribe of Judah He was also God. He would not be expected to be limited to the belief of any human since He knew the end from the beginning.

He was human. He had some concept from seeing the horror of a Roman crucifixion during His life of what torment he could expect. Does it really seem unbelievable that a human would want to escape such pain? It is all the more a sacrifice when you see it in those terms.

I say he gave His life because He could have summoned a legion of angels to defend Himself if He chose to. It was ALWAYS within His power to refuse such a painful, shameful death at the hands of His own creation. His struggle as a human wanting to avoid the pain of crucifixion confirms his humanity. His change of heart and submission to His love of His creation confirms His Deity...at least for me. Ben, I try not to over complicate faith. It's a fool's errand to try to convince a person who has decided that God is fully expressed or understood in religion. I'm not even sure why I believe. I just know that I can do no other thing. I'm as unable to disbelieve as some are to believe. I wish them a good journey and that humanly acquired wisdom will fulfill them because if it doesn't, there will be nothing else to build "hedges against the night". That was a phrase from a Stephen king book. It sums up for me an idea of finding security against loneliness and despair.

I am sorry, but now you have complicated the whole thing on a double. How could have Jesus been born into the Tribe of Judah if he was not a biological son of Joseph's who was the one from that Tribe? An adopted Jew, according to Judaism, could never become of the Tribe of his adopting father. Tribal lineage could never be acquired through adoption. Do you want to give a try at this one? There are many other points in this post of yours but I'll reserve them for another occasion.

Ben

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Not so fast, my friend! You have first to show me where in Moses and the prophets is it written about Jesus. Perhaps according to your Christian pre-

conceived notions? That doesn't count. Reason is a better option.

Ben

Oh there are dozens of places...

According to the Jewish texts of the time and Jesus own embracing of the concept as it pertained to him, he is considered the literal WORD of GOD, the very embodiement of God in human form. Amazingly, that is exactly how the Old Testament portrays the Messiah, which he admits to being, and it is exactly how many of the Jews saw him as well.

One of the oldest and most revered commentaries of the Torah, which is still used today shows us this quite clearly. It is also clearly reflected in many ancient texts that were found in Qumran.

The Word OF God is literally seen to be alive and is a personage distinct from God the Supreme Spirit, whom noone can see.

The Old Testament is intriguing in that it refers to "The Word of God" as a seperate entity. This view is quite clear especially if one looks at the early Targums such as the Targum of Onkelos or the Targum Palestine.

Who else do you know who is called the "Word of God"? The Logos.

Here is a snippet from the The Targum of Palestine and the Targum (Babylonian) Onkelos, a Jewish commentary of Genesis.

Targum Onkelos

And they heard the voice of the Word of the Lord God walking in the garden in the evening of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from before the Lord God among the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, Where art thou? And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I (was) naked, and I would hide.

The Targum of Palestine

Walking in the garden in the strength of the day......And the Word of the Lord God called to Adam, and said to him, Behold, the world which I have created is manifest before Me; and how thinkest thou that the place in the midst whereof thou art, is not revealed before Me? Where is the commandment which I taught thee?

And he said, The voice of Thy Word heard I in the garden, and I was afraid, because I am naked; and the commandment which Thou didst teach me, I have transgressed; therefore I hid myself from shame.

Basically the targums are the oral tradition of the synagogues before even the time of the 2nd temple.

As can be seen above, there is a clear differentiation between the word and of God himself. The word was a living thing. Look up the term: The Memra of God.

This distinction is found a number of times in the Old Testament, thereby demonstrating a plurality that does not lead us to a simple idea of God with different facets. Each of those aspects had individual character and will.

One of these is Ecclesiastes 12:1, "Remember now your creator". The literal translation is "Remember your creators".

Here is what the direct unadulterated translation of Ecclesiastes 12:1, from Hebrew to English says:

"before when not she grows dark the sun and the light and the moon and they approach years when you will say there is not to me in them pleasure in days of youths of you before when not they come days of trouble and vigor meaningless and remember! ONES CREATING YOU."

John R. Kohlenberger III-"The Interlinear NIV Hebrew-English Old Testament"

Now in this literal word for word translation, we see the exclamation mark after remember and then "ONES CREATING YOU". If it was singular or just "one" then the literal translation would be "one creating you". If we have "one" who creates then this person would be a creator. If you have "ones" that create then we would have "creators". The correct meaning of Ecclesiastes 12:1 is "Remember now your creators".

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Are you certain you have analyzed the information correctly?

I have been guided by Logic and Reason, as well as evidential indications in the gospels themselves to have come to that conclusion.

Ben

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