Burning Qur'an Pastor

[+and-then]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-07/quran-burning-pastor-mosque-protest/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient. I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran. But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

[ciriuslea]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-07/quran-burning-pastor-mosque-protest/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient. I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran. But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

If Islam had its way he wouldn't be able to criticize the religion, or protest against it so I respect his protest...if he owns the books he is burning then whats the problem.....The Quran is full of hate for non Muslims and the texts are interpreted that way as we know by fundamentalists..what is wrong with burning something that says Terry Jones is an infidel and threatens his security with texts like..fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them, Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme..

[+and-then]

If Islam had its way he wouldn't be able to criticize the religion, or protest against it so I respect his protest...if he owns the books he is burning then whats the problem.....The Quran is full of hate for non Muslims and the texts are interpreted that way as we know by fundamentalists..what is wrong with burning something that says Terry Jones is an infidel and threatens his security with texts like..fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them, Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme..

I believe his protest is valid. I am against burning the Qur'an because it just fuels the fire of hatred. That doesn't mean I agree with the tenets held in it's pages. Welcome to UM BTW.

Once you're here awhile you'll see that I'm one of the more outspoken against the abuses of Islam and the dangers it poses the world as a religious/political entity bent on subjugation and domination. His protest will be seen by many Americans as low brow and racist even though they have no idea what true Islam stands for. Burning the book is just unnecessary as far as I'm concerned. Better to quote from it liberally and show what it truly advocates

[Englishgent]

You will also find that 'and then' generally gives an honest and informed reply or opinion to most things. I dont agree with everything he says, but in this case I do agree. Why fuel hatred?

[Leonardo]

As much as the burning of the US flag is expressive, and protected under freedoms, so is the burning of the Qur'an, or the bible, Torah, etc. All of those symbols are simply material objects and have no inherent 'holiness' about them.

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

Perhaps those who only worship according to what a book has taught them understand, on some unconscious and fundamental level, that the book is their god.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Leonardo

[libstaK]

As much as the burning of the US flag is expressive, and protected under freedoms, so is the burning of the Qur'an, or the bible, Torah, etc. All of those symbols are simply material objects and have no inherent 'holiness' about them.

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

Perhaps those who only worship according to what a book has taught them understand, on some unconscious and fundamental level, that the book is their god.

That is far too profound a notion to apply only to Islam or even only to Religion.

[Beckys_Mom]

http://www.usatoday....test/54103832/1

Apparently Terry Jones did not think his 15 minutes were sufficient. I strongly disagree with burning of the Quran. But I think the cause for his protest is worthy even if it's probably premature.

When he was first reported on the news and everyone slamming him...I kind of felt sorry for the man....

He has guts gotta hand him that....

[Parsip]

Those to whom such expressions [as burning objects] signify 'hate' (or inflame in them 'hatred'), are incorrectly identifying the subject of their worship - effectively idolising a material item representing that subject. Muslims worship Allah, the Qur'an is not Allah.

Or is it?

They get upset because it's an insult to them and Islam, not because they worship the Quran or Muhammad.

This pastor is either very stupid or very brave, but I don't know what he hopes to accomplish.

[Leonardo]

They get upset because it's an insult to them and Islam, not because they worship the Quran or Muhammad.

This pastor is either very stupid or very brave, but I don't know what he hopes to accomplish.

If they didn't worship (or idolise) the Qur'an, then there would be nothing to feel insulted about. It would just be some slightly-cracked person burning a book.

But this does not only apply to Muslims, it is also true of Christians and all the other religions which depend on a book for their 'truth' about divinity.

libstaK,

My thanks for the compliment, and it might not apply only to religions as we define religion - but it does apply to anyone who holds what a book (or document) states, in any form of quasi-religious reverence. It may even apply to how some people view non-textual symbols - like flags.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Leonardo

[kmt_sesh]

For those of you who support this pastor and seem to think Muslims stand behind an itinerary of violence and world domination, I must ask: how many Muslims do you know. I mean, really know?

I've been fortunate to have met many Muslims in the dozen years I've lived in Chicago, to have worked with many of them, and to have befriended several of them. One was a particularly dear friend who passed away about a year ago.

I myself think this pastor is a bonafide idiot.

He is an open racist, clearly not terribly bright, and obviously an exceedingly poor example of his profession. You're supporting a man of God who is openly castigating an entire religion and its practitioners.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I've not practiced the religion most of my adult life, but I am not an atheist. I appreciate the value of religion, particularly when it's used appropriately: to enlighten one's self and to practice a set of moral values in one's life. This pastor, on the other hand, is a classic example of the pompous, deluded Christian who uses religion not only to look down upon others but as a blunt weapon. Who's the savage here, exactly?

We throw stones at Muslims, and goodness knows a percentage of them are stuck in a medieval mindset in which violence is advocated, but recall the countless atrocities down through the centuries for which the Church is guilty. And to be sure, this percentage of Muslims who advocate violence represent something probably on the order of one-half of one percent. If that.

Of all the Muslims I've met, of those with whom I've spoken about their religion, and of those whom I've befriended, none would advocate the sort of violence embraced by their fundamentalist minority.

I for one do not understand the reactionary fervor to which many Muslims do tend to jump when they feel slighted. For instance, recently when those soldiers accidentally burned Qurans in Afghanistan, the resulting uproar and riots among Afghanis led to the deaths of 30 of their own people. Not our soldiers, in retaliation, but their own people. No, I don't understand that. In my opinion, no matter how religiously significant a book might be--be it a Bible or Torah or Quran--it is not worth a human life. In some cases I believe Muslims who already possess an anti-American bent look for excuses to exercise outbursts. It's not something I'll probably never understand, but then again I am not some poverty-stricken, mostly illiterate villager being influenced by zealous imams my entire life.

So it's not as though I'm blind to the potential for violence, but in the same light I see no rational cause for risking more of it. If anyone dies because of this pastor's action, be it a Muslim or non-Muslim, it will go back to that pastor's actions.

How would we feel if a group of Muslims carried a Bible to the steps of a Catholic Church and burned it?

[+and-then]

Seeing a Bible burned would greatly offend me but I would not be driven to violence because of it. I actually would feel badly for the hatred that person was living with in their life. But this "pastor" is expressing the views of a good many Americans who are frustrated and fed up with the wars and with the potential violence that hangs over America due to radical Islam. To act as though the danger doesn't exist because a majority of adherents to Islam are peaceful is like saying you shouldn't fear a pathological murderer because most humans don't kill. The only issue I have with the majority of Muslims is that they do NOT condemn this behavior. Their reasons are their own but when they refuse to condemn the behavior then they are passively complicit in it.

I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes. He may get a lot more than that before he's through. I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

[kmt_sesh]

Seeing a Bible burned would greatly offend me but I would not be driven to violence because of it. I actually would feel badly for the hatred that person was living with in their life. But this "pastor" is expressing the views of a good many Americans who are frustrated and fed up with the wars and with the potential violence that hangs over America due to radical Islam. To act as though the danger doesn't exist because a majority of adherents to Islam are peaceful is like saying you shouldn't fear a pathological murderer because most humans don't kill. The only issue I have with the majority of Muslims is that they do NOT condemn this behavior. Their reasons are their own but when they refuse to condemn the behavior then they are passively complicit in it.

I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes. He may get a lot more than that before he's through. I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

I am in full agreement that Muslims do not do enough to police themselves and it is an excellent point. I've always felt this way. People are big on speeches but short on action. There is a lot of work here in the U.S. among Muslim communities to school and counsel their children toward more peaceful, productive, and useful futures, but I don't know if this has much if any effect on Muslims living in the Middle East or elsewhere. That's where the problems are.

In the harsh light of reality, however this idiot pastor's actions will achieve nothing positive. It will not change or affect radical Islam, nor will it change or affect U.S. foreign policy. In the extreme it's likely to enflame Muslim villages in backwater countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan, where violence is already an every-day reality. It's also possible that this idiot pastor's actions will actually worsen the situation in the U.S., if only to a limited extent. Islam in the United States is already pretty moderate, but I don't think it's an intelligent thing for us to push people's buttons when they're not asking us to push their buttons.

I honestly don't think this idiot pastor will have any positive or useful effect by burning Qurans. Nothing good will come from it. Do we really want to push moderate Muslims into extreme actions? Do we really want to encourage the prejudice and ignorance from which too many Americans already suffer?

The only real thing I think this idiot pastor is proving is that he's an idiot.

[Leonardo]

The only real thing I think this idiot pastor is proving is that he's an idiot.

I don't disagree with your estimation of the pastor, kmt, but would you not consider a violent reaction to his act out of proportion to it?

He is burning a book, but so what?

If it was a rare and valuable copy of it - with historic and artistic value - then I could see some merit in getting up-in-arms. But in all likelihood it is a modern mass-produced volume and the end result of his action will amount to nothing.

Would you be upset over a person destroying modern, mass-produced, valueless replica's of Ancient Egyptian treasures?

Edited April 11, 2012 by Leonardo

[Beckys_Mom]

I think this so called pastor is an idiot looking for his 15 minutes. He may get a lot more than that before he's through. I say again - it is a far more effective tool to quote from the Qur'an and Hadiths and to explain the traditions associated with this religion than it ever will be to just burn a book out of spiteful hatred.

Pushing aside all the names people call this man...He is taking a stand for his beliefs... Sometimes people can take things far in doing so...He has his beliefs just like everyone else .. And like many he will push harder to get people to take note... I say he may be wrong in the qur'an but he has his reasons...We may not all agree with him...but I do not see it any different from those that burn books elsewhere

Edited April 11, 2012 by Beckys_Mom

[hetrodoxly]

For those of you who support this pastor and seem to think Muslims stand behind an itinerary of violence and world domination, I must ask: how many Muslims do you know. I mean, really know?

I've been fortunate to have met many Muslims in the dozen years I've lived in Chicago, to have worked with many of them, and to have befriended several of them. One was a particularly dear friend who passed away about a year ago.

I myself think this pastor is a bonafide idiot.

He is an open racist, clearly not terribly bright, and obviously an exceedingly poor example of his profession. You're supporting a man of God who is openly castigating an entire religion and its practitioners.

I was raised Roman Catholic. I've not practiced the religion most of my adult life, but I am not an atheist. I appreciate the value of religion, particularly when it's used appropriately: to enlighten one's self and to practice a set of moral values in one's life. This pastor, on the other hand, is a classic example of the pompous, deluded Christian who uses religion not only to look down upon others but as a blunt weapon. Who's the savage here, exactly?

We throw stones at Muslims, and goodness knows a percentage of them are stuck in a medieval mindset in which violence is advocated, but recall the countless atrocities down through the centuries for which the Church is guilty. And to be sure, this percentage of Muslims who advocate violence represent something probably on the order of one-half of one percent. If that.

Of all the Muslims I've met, of those with whom I've spoken about their religion, and of those whom I've befriended, none would advocate the sort of violence embraced by their fundamentalist minority.

I for one do not understand the reactionary fervor to which many Muslims do tend to jump when they feel slighted. For instance, recently when those soldiers accidentally burned Qurans in Afghanistan, the resulting uproar and riots among Afghanis led to the deaths of 30 of their own people. Not our soldiers, in retaliation, but their own people. No, I don't understand that. In my opinion, no matter how religiously significant a book might be--be it a Bible or Torah or Quran--it is not worth a human life. In some cases I believe Muslims who already possess an anti-American bent look for excuses to exercise outbursts. It's not something I'll probably never understand, but then again I am not some poverty-stricken, mostly illiterate villager being influenced by zealous imams my entire life.

So it's not as though I'm blind to the potential for violence, but in the same light I see no rational cause for risking more of it. If anyone dies because of this pastor's action, be it a Muslim or non-Muslim, it will go back to that pastor's actions.

How would we feel if a group of Muslims carried a Bible to the steps of a Catholic Church and burned it?

How many Muslims? thousands, School, neighbours, worked with, worked for and had them working for me, this statement might surprise might upset but never the less it's true, "I've never met an honest one" i don't support the pastor but would defend his right to burn the Quran, Muslims don't have to be offended they just choose to be, what has race got to do with it?

Edited April 11, 2012 by hetrodoxly

[kmt_sesh]

How many Muslims? thousands, School, neighbours, worked with, worked for and had them working for me, this statement might surprise might upset but never the less it's true, "I've never met an honest one" i don't support the pastor but would defend his right to burn the Quran, Muslims don't have to be offended they just choose to be, what has race got to do with it?

I know "race" is a clumsy word because Muslims aren't a race, but I didn't know how else to phrase it. I suppose I could put it this way: The pastor is condemning an entire, worldwide ethnic group because of the actions of an extreme minority inhabiting the shadows of that group. That's what I'm trying to convey. It smacks of racism even if "race" is not quite the right word to use, and it's the actions of an ignorant and hateful person. Either that or it's the actions of a person looking to acquire fifteen minutes of fame. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both. Obviously the man isn't too bright.

Yes, this is a matter of free speech. Yes, the pastor has a right to do what he's doing, because he is an American. Still, I'm quite certain it will accomplish nothing. It will bring no positive effect. It's about as productive as some idiot burning an American flag, which is a legal thing to do in this country, although decidedly abhorrent to the majority of us who witness it (I personally wish it were not a legal act to burn the flag).

I suppose I could turn it around and ask the group: What do you think this pastor has achieved? What's positive about it?

Answering that he's exercising his free speech is inadequate, in my opinion. What good is exercising one's free speech if the end result is inflammatory?

Condemning an entire, worldwide ethnic group for the actions of an extreme minority is neither rational nor useful, in my opinion.

-------------------------------------------------------

I should admit that my posts in this discussion are making me sound like some flaming, far-left, limp-noodle liberal. This is giving me a chuckle because I am far from that. Believe me, I am all for the unsparing eradication of every last member and supporter of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and all other extremist Islamic organizations. They are a real plague on the rest of the world. But this pastor would have everyone believe that all Muslims are the same as the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and all other extremist Islamic organizations--which is patently absurd and beneath the thinking of any reasoning and educated person.

Edited April 11, 2012 by kmt_sesh

[hetrodoxly]

I know "race" is a clumsy word because Muslims aren't a race, but I didn't know how else to phrase it. I suppose I could put it this way: The pastor is condemning an entire, worldwide ethnic group because of the actions of an extreme minority inhabiting the shadows of that group. That's what I'm trying to convey. It smacks of racism even if "race" is not quite the right word to use, and it's the actions of an ignorant and hateful person. Either that or it's the actions of a person looking to acquire fifteen minutes of fame. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bit of both. Obviously the man isn't too bright.

Yes, this is a matter of free speech. Yes, the pastor has a right to do what he's doing, because he is an American. Still, I'm quite certain it will accomplish nothing. It will bring no positive effect. It's about as productive as some idiot burning an American flag, which is a legal thing to do in this country, although decidedly abhorrent to the majority of us who witness it (I personally wish it were not a legal act to burn the flag).

I suppose I could turn it around and ask the group: What do you think this pastor has achieved? What's positive about it?

Answering that he's exercising his free speech is inadequate, in my opinion. What good is exercising one's free speech if the end result is inflammatory?

Condemning an entire, worldwide ethnic group for the actions of an extreme minority is neither rational nor useful, in my opinion.

-------------------------------------------------------

I should admit that my posts in this discussion are making me sound like some flaming, far-left, limp-noodle liberal. This is giving me a chuckle because I am far from that. Believe me, I am all for the unsparing eradication of every last member and supporter of the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and all other extremist Islamic organizations. They are a real plague on the rest of the world. But this pastor would have everyone believe that all Muslims are the same as the Taliban, al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, and all other extremist Islamic organizations--which is patently absurd and beneath the thinking of any reasoning and educated person.

I agree with most of what you're saying, the pastor is an idiot i just wished Muslims would see it that way.

[Parsip]

If they didn't worship (or idolise) the Qur'an, then there would be nothing to feel insulted about. It would just be some slightly-cracked person burning a book.

But this does not only apply to Muslims, it is also true of Christians and all the other religions which depend on a book for their 'truth' about divinity.

But it's not a book; it's the Quran. It's very valuable, and when people desecrate it to p*** off Muslims, they get very upset. It's the symbolism that matters.

[kmt_sesh]

I agree with most of what you're saying, the pastor is an idiot i just wished Muslims would see it that way.

LOL Actually that more than anything probably would shut up this pastor right now. All the Muslims need to do is shake their heads at this pastor, mumble "Idiot," and turn away.

That would steal his thunder.

[Leonardo]

But it's not a book; it's the Quran. It's very valuable, and when people desecrate it to p*** off Muslims, they get very upset. It's the symbolism that matters.

No disrespect, Parsip, but this is one of the things that annoys me about religion. In Islam, Allah is holy - but the Qur'an is not Allah, it is just a book. Think of the Qur'an as the path one takes to reach the Kaaba. Is that path the Kaaba? Is it holy?

One of the posters who used to frequent the forums had a favourite quote which I liked. It went "the map is not the territory". That applies to all the various religious scriptures, yet so few understand it.

[Parsip]

No disrespect, Parsip, but this is one of the things that annoys me about religion. In Islam, Allah is holy - but the Qur'an is not Allah, it is just a book. Think of the Qur'an as the path one takes to reach the Kaaba. Is that path the Kaaba? Is it holy?

One of the posters who used to frequent the forums had a favourite quote which I liked. It went "the map is not the territory". That applies to all the various religious scriptures, yet so few understand it.

It's not about the book. The pastor isn't burning a book; he's burning Allah's writings in order to p*** off Muslims. It's symbolic. I don't know how to explain it further, but this is why Muslims get upset when people burn Qurans. No Muslim has a problem with Muslims properly disposing of a copy of the Quran.

[kmt_sesh]

It's not about the book. The pastor isn't burning a book; he's burning Allah's writings in order to p*** off Muslims. It's symbolic. I don't know how to explain it further, but this is why Muslims get upset when people burn Qurans. No Muslim has a problem with Muslims properly disposing of a copy of the Quran.

This is how I see it, too. It's not the book so much as what it contains--the spoken word of Allah as delivered through Muhammad. Regardless of what we think or believe, this is how devout Muslims see the Quran. So to burn it is an act of blatant disrespect not only to Islam but to Allah himself.

I suppose I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm just trying to present the view wherein this pastor's actions could have no positive outcomes, and in fact might prove disastrous. The fact is, like I said earlier, no book is worth a human life. But I am not a Muslim and I wasn't raised under the ceaseless brainwashing of some fanatical imam, so I could never fully appreciate how some Muslims see and react to such things. The fact is, when a Westerner burns a Quran, fundamentalist Muslims tend to go nuts and revert to a savage mindset, and innocent people get killed.

[Leonardo]

It's not about the book. The pastor isn't burning a book; he's burning Allah's writings in order to p*** off Muslims. It's symbolic. I don't know how to explain it further, but this is why Muslims get upset when people burn Qurans. No Muslim has a problem with Muslims properly disposing of a copy of the Quran.

If it wasn't about the book, then why would Muslims get upset?

I don't doubt the motives of the pastor are not friendly towards Islam, but are Muslims so thin-skinned that anyone who criticises Islam warrants a violent or aggressive reaction?

There is no suggestion they are "defending their faith", because their faith resides within them - not in the mind or actions of a Christian pastor in the USA - and it cannot be 'assaulted' (or insulted) unless they allow it to be.

All they are exhibiting is basic, and immature, tribalism - allied to the idolisation of a book.

While the pastors motive may be unpleasant, there is no need to allow ourselves to grant any validity to those motives through our reaction to them. We can, instead, look at the action for what it is - the burning of a book - and wonder why it warrants such a reaction. Then, hopefully and through reason, grow a bit from our reflections.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Leonardo

[Parsip]

Even if he writes a part of a Quranic sura, or even the word "Allah", on a napkin and then burns it, they would get upset. It has nothing to do with books or paper. It's desecrating holy text with malicious (in their view) intentions that angers them. If you were a Muslim and properly disposed of a Quran, they wouldn't care. When I threw papers with Allah or Quranic verses written on them in a garbage bin, my teachers didn't care, because in their mind I'm a Muslim and why would a Muslim insult Islam and Allah? But when a Christian Westerner intentionally burns a Quran, obviously there's no doubt it wasn't respectful or accidental.

I'm not excusing their behavior. I'm just explaining it. It is of course barbaric to hurt someone for burning a Quran.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Parsip

[hetrodoxly]

Even if he writes a part of a Quranic sura, or even the word "Allah", on a napkin and then burns it, they would get upset. It has nothing to do with books or paper. It's desecrating holy text with malicious (in their view) intentions that angers them. If you were a Muslim and properly disposed of a Quran, they wouldn't care. When I threw papers with Allah or Quranic verses written on them in a garbage bin, my teachers didn't care, because in their mind I'm a Muslim and why would a Muslim insult Islam and Allah? But when a Christian Westerner intentionally burns a Quran, obviously there's no doubt it wasn't respectful or accidental.

I'm not excusing their behavior. I'm just explaining it. It is of course barbaric to hurt someone for burning a Quran.

I don't respect Islam, and why should i ? i have no intention of burning a Quran because it servers no purpose but if i was cold i'd pile them high and it would be the first book in the library to go on the fire, this is of no business to any Muslim, they know nothing is going to happen if the Quran is destroyed all i've done is hurt their macho ego and they want to punish the infidel.