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RavenHawk

Was: Do muslims......

180 posts in this topic

i didn't say to name aggressive muslim i asked you to explain why you think muslim"s" are aggressive in middle east

he got followers in iran and among shittes only .. and no he's not real muslim in case you thought i was joking

but you didn't explain at all you named one muslim and posted that muslims in middle east are aggrissive

and took the most hidious example to explain ?

i can say the same and tell you all americans are george bush ? use some sense when you discuss instead of calling people childish

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Nah, I didn't say that all Muslims in the Middle East are aggressive. I said those are Muslims who I don't like. Then you imply that no Muslims anywhere are violent. So I named a violent Muslim...and one that has millions of followers. Here, we'll have a little logic course.

Inductive reasoning creates propositions that speak to a conclusion. For example:

Khomeini is a Muslim.

His followers are Muslims.

He has a lot of followers.

They live in a place called the Middle East.

They are aggressive and nasty.

Therefore, it is true that there are some Muslims in the Middle East that are aggressive and nasty.

See what I did there? (And your example is weak, primarily because George Bush is not a religious leader for millions of people. There's no logical equivalence. Better luck next time.)

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well first of all shittes are minority among muslims that's flash news

and then another flash news not all shittes are violent .. just those who mix up with politics

and afterward violent does not measure by his opposiation to the united states .. coz let's face it usa is the most disliked country around the world .. probably more than that person you mentioned

so enlighten me telling me what do you define violent as ? based on what you think a muslim is violent ?

and no one said there are no violent muslims in middle east .. just like there are violent christians and other religions

every religion got exteremists

by the way .. another important flash news .. george bush words " this crusade " yeah he did say crusade

so that's makes it really religious war doesn't it ??! amazing huh ?

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You raise a lot of good points knight of shadows, I agree most of what I hear about islam is the news and the very outspoken 'western muslims'.

In Australia theres a small population of muslims that come here to live but yet hate the way we live. Going on national media and telling Australians to change the way we live our lives because it offends them.

Now I believe if anyone doesnt like a countries values they shouldnt move there to live. Especially insult the people living there. If I moved to another country I would never argue the way they live, that would just be rude and offensive IMO.

Heres an example, a group of muslim men raped woman here and the main muslim leader in Sydney blamed it on the woman saying "if you leave uncovered meat out and cats get to it, do you blame the meat or the cats?" I find that extremely offensive and I believe people like that shouldnt be let in the country.

Source

Now like I said its a small population, muslims with a good attitude(like yourself) I have no problem with at all.

And thankyou for your posts, they have been very reasonable.

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exactly my point those muslims living outside in the west they paint a very bad image for muslims

if you don't like it why go there ? you blend in another country you obey THIER rulez you don't forces yours on them

same applies for westerns who comes here they obey our rulez not bring their own rulez with them

for that poor girl for all i know she can walk naked around that doesn't give any one the right to touch her

this is just a common excuse to justify their animalistic nature

hey am not really one sided i just draw the bad points in both side no one is innocent here

every religion got it's maniacs to use it for their personal purposes

some are provoked .. some are just plain dumb to follow their preists or shekh without questioning their common sense

god most amazing gift to human is the brain .. if we not gonna use it and let the supposedly religious leaders do the thinking for us then we might as well dumb our head in the trash

pleasure to meet you by the way

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no one is innocent here

I totally agree, its good to hear from a different point of view other than TV media.

pleasure to meet you by the way

You too mate.

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they wanna see muslim terrorists videos they wanna see muslims attack people .. but when some one snap the bubble around their brain and give them reality check they just don't like it

No one's having a laugh here, and nobody wants Muslims to be bad people. Do you think I enjoy the memories of my mother and siblings beating, stabbing and burning me while calling me an infidel? No, but that's reality. It's easy for Muslims and Westerners to pat themselves on the back for "interfaith dialogue" and praise moderate Muslims and similar nonsense, but I can't afford to stick my head in the sand and pretend Muslims are peaceful. Last time I was stupid enough to believe in Muslim tolerance of other religious beliefs, my best friend threatened to kill me for apostasy. You can tell Westerners that there's no problems in Islam or the Middle East, and you may really believe it, but such words are meaningless to me and the hundreds of millions of victims of Islam throughout history, and I sure hope no one here is gullible enough to believe you.

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so basically you got into a personal expience that made you tight on your judgement

however i think i'd act the same if i were you .. only differnt is when i do i'll admit it's wrong to accuse all muslims

and blame them all for something few extremists did .. i'd still hang on to my opinion like you are now

but only with that confession slight change

and am sorry for what you been through .. but that doesn't mean i let your wrong claims goes unexplained

you didn't tell us from which country those events happened ?

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ohh no .. look .. the terrorist muslim is using new strange of method of killing .. a prayer !

I admire the man offering his prayer. And the group gathering around him are ignorant morons. The difference is that Christian extremists aren’t driving the bus. More than likely, that man will walk away and go home to live his life. If it was the other way around, I would expect that the odds would be that the one praying would be stoned or beheaded.

On the other hand, this looked staged. We don’t know the whole story.

we can all play funny videos when you fail to prove a point .. and to think you two were actually here to make discussions

when you fail to make a point you turn it to a joke .. i can joke too ;)

For one, I hadn’t failed in proving my points. I’ve nailed them and have countered everything you’ve said (or am in the process of). Posting the video was out of frustration. Although I think the exchange between us is very enlightening, the roots of what you are saying is the same old taqiya. And that saddens me. I am here to have a serious discussion but at the same time, I don’t want it too heavy.

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very funny hahahaha .. you know what's more funny .. finding the medical term of your condition .. called Islam Phobia :D

No, it’s not Islamophobia. It’s just pity.

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well first of all shittes are minority among muslims that's flash news

No, that's not a news flash. Shi'ites are around 20-24 percent of Muslims...a fairly significant minority.

and then another flash news not all shittes are violent .. just those who mix up with politics

Interesting, see, I always thought that one of the major tenets of Shia Islam was the religion/politics connection. I might just be completely misunderstanding their views though.

and afterward violent does not measure by his opposiation to the united states .. coz let's face it usa is the most disliked country around the world .. probably more than that person you mentioned

Hah. I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here, but the sense I'm getting is that it's okay to oppose the United States because everyone dislikes them? That isn't a logical statement...are we going to have to go through another refresher logic course?

so enlighten me telling me what do you define violent as ? based on what you think a muslim is violent ?

and no one said there are no violent muslims in middle east .. just like there are violent christians and other religions

every religion got exteremists

You were the one with your head in the sand denying the existence of violent Muslims. I'm glad we finally got it hammered out though. Sorry, we're not talking about extremist views in other religions. Once again, saying, "You do it too," is a very poor logical defense of extremism.

I define violence as suicide bombing. I define it as calling for the murder of an author who wrote a book that you (not you personally) take exception to. I define violence as calling for perpetual struggle until Islam becomes the dominant religion of the world. See, Christianity has gotten over that segment of its history, but I don't see Islam as being quite as over it.

I'm just going to ignore your little George Bush rants, as they're not contributing anything to the conversation.

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ohh know what's more funny ? .. a terrorist muslim saves an infedel jew yay crazy i know !

Then you have Bin Laden who has killed thousands, Hussein who has killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, Assad who has killed hundreds, and Ahmedinajad through his saber rattling to wipe Israel off the map. The two sides just somehow don’t balance out.

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ohhh more muslims terrorists !! one of them used his head as a weapon to beat the weapon of the innocent western !

yeah we tend to be creative sometimes !

I don’t know if you wanted to post this one. If you listen to what the guy at about 2:57 says, “…In the heart of the disbeliever”. Then you begin to see why there isn’t much trust. It doesn’t matter how much of a minority it is. Londoners still recall fresh memories of 4 bombers (British born Muslims) that killed 50 people. If you want the West to stop killing Muslims, then stop the Muslims that are Hell bent on killing the disbeliever in the name of Allah. Deal?

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look how sweet and friendly their chanting is ! usa ! go back home .. boooooo !

you still wonder ???

Yes that is disgusting. A lot of ignorance. The TEA Party is against over spending by this government. It has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. Liberalism and Muslim extremists have a lot in common. But the Muslims in this clip are mostly, if not all, American. Like the one guy is heard saying, “I’m from Fullerton”. These morons here don’t understand that these Muslims are the ones that they should make allies of. Muslims here can’t make a difference alone. They need the help of other Americans. But Americans aren’t the only morons…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HNAciTJHHU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLQXxnKMxNQ

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they wanna see muslim terrorists videos they wanna see muslims attack people ..

I am tired of seeing Muslims attack people. I’m merely warning that if Muslims don’t stop their own from attacking others, the West is going to lose patience and will put an end to it themselves.

but when some one snap the bubble around their brain and give them reality check they just don't like it

I guess you didn’t like the reality check I gave you.

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Posted (edited)

so basically you got into a personal expience that made you tight on your judgement

however i think i'd act the same if i were you .. only differnt is when i do i'll admit it's wrong to accuse all muslims

and blame them all for something few extremists did .. i'd still hang on to my opinion like you are now

but only with that confession slight change

and am sorry for what you been through .. but that doesn't mean i let your wrong claims goes unexplained

you didn't tell us from which country those events happened ?

I'm not basing it on personal experience. I know anecdotes aren't statistical facts. I was just telling you that many people have had very real first-hand experiences with fundamentalist Muslims, and that their opinion of Islam has nothing to do with ignorance or Islamophobia. I've already gone through the "rebel against all things Islamic" phase and no longer hold a grudge towards Muslims. I've had nice experiences with them, and not all of Islam's teachings are bad. You don't have to worry about my objectivity. I base my opinion of Muslims on the Quran and Hadith, and how the ulema have interpreted them, as well as surveys or studies of Muslim opinion in various countries. For example, according to the Pew survey, dozens, possibly hundreds, of millions of Muslims (and in only a handful of Muslim countries; if all Muslim countries were surveyed, it would undoubtedly be at least a billion Muslims) who believe innocent men, women and children (Islamic adulthood begins at puberty, as you know) should be murdered for leaving Islam - a victimless thought crime. That isn't very peaceful, and if people keep saying only a very tiny minority of Muslims are extremists, Muslims will never reform.

As for my country, I can't tell you that. Partly for security reasons, but mostly for personal reasons that I don't expect anyone to understand. But I am in the Middle East. :)

Edited by Parsip

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Wrong. Jews, Sabians and Christians are called people of the book because gods scriptures were revealed to them before the final chapter which is the Quran. According to Islam, the OT, the NT and the Q are three chapters from one book.

So the Torah was the first chapter. But Muslims don’t accept the second chapter. And Jews and Christians don’t follow the third chapter. So how can that be three chapters of the same book?

Judaism and Christianity is not, or was not AT THAT time, a corrupted version of the faith

What time was that? But it is now corrupted?

but the Bible was being corrupted during the period. So no, please do not twist things arround. Therefore, Jews and Christians are not non believers.

Again, what period? If there is some period that the Bible was being corrupted then the adherents are corrupted and therefore, non believers. How is that twisting things around? The Dead Sea Scrolls show that the Torah hasn’t changed in 2000 years. The earliest existing documents of the NT dating back to the 2nd Century ce are virtually the same as what we have today. There has been no corruption there. The NT still explains who Jesus is and his message and what he wants for us.

As for selfdefence, only one definition is used-the one of selfdefence meaning the right to defend yourself and your familiy against attacks.

And who defines an *attack*? Using a recent example, is not apostasy an attack on Islam? If everyone leaves the faith, it dies. That sounds like a reason to defend itself. But is Islam is so great, then why do people want to leave? Is it the faith or the dogma?

It mihgt schock you but selfdefence is not an exlusive right of Christians and Jews.

It doesn’t shock me at all. Never said it was an exclusive right.

Would any threat to Christian, Jewish, Secular, Hindu.....society constitute the need for self-defence? I am anwsering with a question to show how absurd your initial question is.

Absolutely! I was using the question to show how absurd your canned statement was. It’s the general excuse. And furthermore, you weren’t aware of the comparison…

Submitting to the will of Allah IS Islam. Just as Jews submit to the will of God or Christians.

Exactly! But Jews and Christians are second class human beings because they do not submit to Allah. At least in the intolerant view of Islam.

Sorry, but not one of your question has relevancy or anything remotely intelligent, no disrespect.

Every single one has been relevant and intelligent. For you to say they are not is just the Muslim way to ignore the relevancy. Typical.

What would you think and how would you feel as an individual if I would judge you and most of Christians or Jews according to what has happen in the name of God during the Incvisition?

First off, I’m use to it. Christians take hits in this nation all the time from the atheist minority, so there is nothing new to Muslim prejudice. But I don’t feel that my religion requires me to kill atheists because they don’t believe in GOD. I feel sorry for them but that’s about it. I’m sure they don’t care.

The inquisition was more bark than bite when you consider that the inquisition was born out of la Reconquista and the Alhambra Decree. Like many such events in European history, there are pros and cons. The better condemnation of me would be how this government treated the Native American. But then you’d have to consider how Jordan treated its Palestinians in 1970 or the Russian pogroms against the Jews or even Hitler’s extermination of them. You can go back and look at how Persia, Egypt, Rome, etc treated people of conquered lands. And what would you have? Civilization.

Immagine I paint all of christianty as demonic because of that?

I thought you have…

Immagine I would hate all of christianty because of the actions of the serbian chetnics who murdered, raped, slaughtered muslim women,men,babies....just 15 years ago in the name of trinity and Jesus?

So you’re saying that the West should hate all Muslims for the same actions? Christianity has matured and no longer does this as a whole. There are exceptions but they don’t drive the bus. Islam on the other hand…

And, it was not a handfull of them but a majority.

Serbians are most definitely a minority. What’s interesting is that the Balkans is where you find a close mix of Christian and Muslims, more so than any other place. And it is this place where there is much unrest. That’s just an observation.

So for me, as a victim of that war, it would be stupid to think that ALL of Christians are like that. There are arround 2 billion Christians in the world but we delt with a few million faul appels.

You must have gone through Hell. I am glad that you are a survivor. But, like what? That Christians are saps? That they felt like they had to defend themselves from centuries of abuse? That they committed atrocities is one thing and those responsible have paid for their wrong doing. But what has been their motivation? Muslims are well known for making treaties that they know can’t last and then when a violation of that treaty occurs, no matter how small, they use that to break the treaty and take over. This is basic Quran and goes back to Badr. After the fall of Tito, the Balkan Christians felt like getting some payback. Now I’m not condoning it, but one has to wonder. For every action , there is a reaction.

There are over 1.5 billion muslims in the world and we too deal here with a few million bad apples but, for some reason ALL muslims are painted like loonatics.

That is your fault. Primarily because you don’t deal with it. Because you are either afraid of retaliation from those Muslim bad apples or deep down you agree with them and don’t dare break the tie of kinship, which is what happens when one Muslim speaks out against another especially when the act of doing so sides with disbelievers. That’s the problem, you have to continually fight against what is right verses what the Quran says.

Buddy, we muslims go to work, pay our bills, play with our kids, worry about tomorrow, worry about our parents health, our kids health. We eat and poop just like the rest of the human population in the world. And we differ, just like anyone else, in our opinions, political views, taste of music, fashion.......... Trust me, as much as some of you want to paint us like that, we are not aliens or gargoils, belzebubs.....Sorry to disapoint you.

Yes, I know that. I have to remind Christians of that. That is why I wonder why Muslims always try to put themselves above everyone else? And you do. Not because you are but because the Quran artificially says you are and that disbelievers are worthy of death. That is throughout the Quran. It’s not so much that there’s a fear there that all Muslims are commanded to kill the disbeliever. But it’s what happens when someone is told that they are no good over and over that eventually they begin to believe it. The same thing happens when one is taught that they are artificially superior. And yet, if you are an intelligent person, you know that that isn’t the case (or do you?). We are all equal. Christian sensibilities can handle a wide variety of religions and races. Muslim sensibilities can only comprehend a Muslim only (or dominated) world.

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No, that's not a news flash. Shi'ites are around 20-24 percent of Muslims...a fairly significant minority.

Interesting, see, I always thought that one of the major tenets of Shia Islam was the religion/politics connection. I might just be completely misunderstanding their views though.

Hah. I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here, but the sense I'm getting is that it's okay to oppose the United States because everyone dislikes them? That isn't a logical statement...are we going to have to go through another refresher logic course?

You were the one with your head in the sand denying the existence of violent Muslims. I'm glad we finally got it hammered out though. Sorry, we're not talking about extremist views in other religions. Once again, saying, "You do it too," is a very poor logical defense of extremism.

I define violence as suicide bombing. I define it as calling for the murder of an author who wrote a book that you (not you personally) take exception to. I define violence as calling for perpetual struggle until Islam becomes the dominant religion of the world. See, Christianity has gotten over that segment of its history, but I don't see Islam as being quite as over it.

I'm just going to ignore your little George Bush rants, as they're not contributing anything to the conversation.

once again you strike out

shittes are from 10-20 % not as you claim .. get your info right please

not really not every shitte care about politics .. again you thinking of all of them by taking few examples

and i'll help you understand my statement correct .. Violent .. is not measured wheathered the people support or oppose the united states .. i know you guys are really blinded by your own goverment on this

so every one who says NO to usa .. is simply violent or terrorist .. that's not how you measure violent

and looks to me .. that's how you do it so maybe it's You outta get to that logic courses .. seems like you need it more than i do bro

nope i never denied there are violent muslims just like i never deny there's also violent people in all religion

i never said that .. just your imagination playing tricks on you so do n't swell you ego thinking you made me into admitting something .. read my posts

your definition of violent is kinda of correct .. well kinda of that is IF islam was claiming desire to be the most dominated religion on earth .. it simply doesn't therefore again you strike out taking few examples and explain it in your weird little way apply on all muslims

however i know you won't ansewr my rants about bush .. that's because you're too ignorant to admit when you're wrong

not that i care anyway .. laterz

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Then you have Bin Laden who has killed thousands, Hussein who has killed hundreds of thousands of his own people, Assad who has killed hundreds, and Ahmedinajad through his saber rattling to wipe Israel off the map. The two sides just somehow don’t balance out.

i'd argue with that to a high point osama bin laden you see .. was just a puppet used by the usa to start their " holy " war

look at his history together .. his family is friend with the Bush family

And to his death they showed you people some photoshop proccessed picture and yet how silly many were happy crazy for it

.. it's weird world we living in .. truely when people choose to stick their face into the sand and not see anything

there's just no way to talk them otherwise

again and again i repeat to you .. iran is not muslim country in my opinion they even chant about killing sunni muslims

would fasten the coming of the muhde .. doesn't look like muslim teaching to me .. and to think you claimed we don't know about our religion look at you not knowing the different between shittes .. and real muslims

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i disagree on most of those points .. but let me go over one by one

first western muslims are the ones who live in the west .. and deny to obey the west laws and they go around yelling hell and all wants to show every one they're muslims .. well we know that .. keep it to your self they should do that

such are those you saw in that video

So they are immigrants to the West coming from Muslim nations. So would any Muslims from these other nations do the same if they lived here? I think they would. Mostly because they feel naked in a new land. And that’s ok. But the job of the immigrant is to absorb and acclimate into their new country. Learn to pick your battles. The Muslim voice has every right to be heard, but it needs to know its place until it finds its niche in the culture. That’s what made New York City so vital into indoctrinating the masses to the American way of life.

now let me tell you don't take certian group as islamic example coz there's None out there who applies islam for real

So there are no orthodox Muslims? I would say that the extremists are the purest. But I wish there were more vocal Muslim heretics. That is the path of reform. I consider myself a Christian heretic. I think that this is the level of detachment that all religion should be at.

wahabis ? they're not even close to real islam they apply it in saudia to stay in power

and many muslims don't like the laws there .. yeah they don't

Yes, they are real Islam. And they are used by the Saud family to stay in power. Would it be any better or worse without the Sauds? If they don’t like it, then why in the Hell don’t they do something about it? Unfortunately, what would happen would be to replace a secular dictator with a sectarian extremist group, like what happened in Egypt. That’s just jumping out of the pan and into the fire. The Arab Spring has been a huge disappointment. The Muslim world is in such a disjointed mess because there are no strong moderate voices for reform. And this will insure Western involvement. Because the West can no longer sit idly by and wait for this unrest to spill out.

and islam WAS policy .. in it's time but in islam you can always see that encouragement to evolve

islam law were made to certain point of time and they worked well on that period .. but they don't fit in modern world

therefore shouldn't be applied

You’re not to clear here. But if I understand, yes, I believe that at a certain period in the Ottoman Empire, an attempt to reform was made. But it died out long before the fall of the Empire. Today, I do not see any encouragement to evolve. All the West sees is the desire to return to the hard line. That’s not the West’s fault.

you mentioned iran .. i've said this on many oceaisons IRAN ARE NOT MUSLIMS .. shittes are not muslims

they say they are but they're not . yet you claim muslims don't know their history

go ahead and read about shittes history before before you say we don't our histroy

it's the most corrupted path .. and yet you give it as example of islam ..

That’s where you are wrong. Arabs aren’t the only ones that can be Muslim and Shiite is just as much Muslim as Sunni is. Just as Catholic and Protestant are both Christian. Yes, I’ve read Shiite history (don’t quiz me :) ), but I still would say they are Muslim. Ok, I’ll respond to that. But if I remember right, Shiites are followers of Ali who was the appointed successor of Mohammed. And they believe that only Allah can appoint their leadership. That they have 8 pillars and not 5. For the Shitte, the Mahdi has already been here and is in hiding, the Sunni is still waiting for his appearance. Kind a like the relationship that Jesus has between Jewish and Christian. Christians are waiting for the second coming and the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. I’ve always found that interesting. Beyond this, I’d probably have to go google for more and I probably will. I am always open to learn what I can. But from this, I see no difference between the two. There are major doctrinal differences between Catholic and Protestant. In general, Catholics require an intercessor (i.e. a priest) to confess one’s sins. Protestants don’t. Protestants believe in full emersion, Catholics don’t. But they are still Christian.

now i have no idea where you get your informations from but you're wrong in most of them

egypt will never be under islamic rule .. just because brotherhood want it .. doesn't mean all muslims does

taliban wants it .. again all afganstan wants it ?!

saudia doesn't want it .. they have it and i told you the reason above

lebanon applies it ?! since when ? i suggest you look this further you obviously oblivious to things you're say

lebanon does not apply any islamic laws .. hezboallah is a sect apply it among themself

not on people around .. don't like them anyway moving on

Alright, fine. Let me back track and say the ruling class want it. And they are their nation. The silent majority as being such has given up their right to voice opposition. Hezbollah is the face of Lebanon. Hezbollah pacifies the population by building schools and hospitals, but it’s not for the people. Hezbollah is simply buying protection. And the sheep go back to sleep. I ought to know, I see the same thing happening in this country under the current regime. Yes, the Taliban want it and following the techniques of coercion as laid out in the Quran, will force it upon everyone else.

now to your scary part i already told you i don't agree on western muslims act

if they didn't like the west .. go back to middle east why left at first place

but hey am not so one sided .. if they are residents of that place they have the right to build mosque

just like christians have the right to build churches in middle east

unless you think they don't deserve something as simple as worship place

however .. i don't agree on most of their acts though .. especially when they're like insulted by dogs and such

i used to have dog my self :D even mohammd the prophet was shepard and had dogs

you know .. i already told you that .. but you can blow their excuses from islam it self

Well, I was kind of rambling, but the point is that there are so many examples of Muslims being spoiled brats in their adopted country. And in some instances follow certain document patterns to over throw the current government for purposes of conquest. This is how Islam has spread – not just by the sword. I have no problem with anyone building a place of worship, but given the current circumstances, to build Cordova house where they want it is showing a lack of understanding by insulting American sensibilities. Does that not count for anything? And it’s not really the mosque but the meaning behind the name – totally inappropriate. That you bring it up shows how out of touch you are and proves my point. You’re not thinking and you don’t care. So why do you expect any respect to be returned?

and maybe muslims aren't interested in painting a good picture since most of them see the west as a leech and murderers

and i assure you .. they do .. once the west started occupying middle east we don't care what they think about us

I guess the feeling is mutual. But we both know this is just an excuse. If we took Bin Laden’s advice and got out of all Muslim territory, there’d soon be some other excuse. Again that is what Islam does.

want me to mention how many western country invaded middle east ? no time for that i bet you already know that

since you say we don't know our history you outta know it

Let’s start with the Muslim invasion of Europe. Shall we talk about the conquest of Iberia, the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, the invasion of the Balkans, the Barbary Pirates… Yeah, that really puts the Crusades into perspective finally. The first Crusade was in 1096. Al Andalus was in 711. The British Empire is probably the most notable invader. But the thing about that is that the British invaded to exploit resources (not to rob or steel). They weren’t really interested in converting anyone. Maybe except to Anglo-ize the locals just enough to run British style bureaucracy. The outcome of that was leaving a score of independent modern nations. Now if you are referring to Ottoman lands lost after WWI, that is not an invasion. Perhaps you were referring to the French invasion of Algeria? Now the Barbary Pirates wouldn’t have had anything to do with that now would they? Except for the British (and then in some cases) the only time Western powers invaded Muslim nations was because the Muslims felt it was their right to attack the West. And when that backfired because the West was able to play the game better, Muslims played the victim card.

and for muslims who made judgements .. didn't george the Bush made a judgement and million iraqis paid the price ?

What do you mean by 2 million paid the price? Between 2 and 4 million Iraqis left the country and most of them were Christian. Or are you buying into the inflated numbers of killed? The estimates are between 80,000 and 100,000 and most of those were those that fought against coalition forces. So please, get your numbers right. And if you think you are right , just think about it logically. If it was the intention of the American military to just go out and kill anyone and everyone, then they wouldn’t have needed ground troops. They could just bomb the Hell out of the Iraqis. If you know anything about training techniques, you know that troops train in urban warfare to go in, in a surgical manner and keep collateral damage to a minimum. So there is no way to have very large body counts.

when usa decided to another " Crusade " on iraq ? huh ? and he's christian ? should i be taking him example for christianity you see .. i can play the same game

Well, let’s see…what was the reason to invade? Despite the media and the hype, the reason as per Resolution 1441 was because Saddam violated the cease fire. And it was a good thing we went in when we did because we almost walked into a Shiite-Sunni civil war. But our invasion quelled that or there could have been millions of dead. And then France got p***ed at us. Not because we were violating Iraqi rights, but because we cut in on their deal with Saddam. The French wanted to arm Iraq with nukes to counter Iran. Are you kidding me? Isn’t India and Pakistan enough? On many levels, Iraq was a necessary war. I just wish we could have completed the task.

fault of west was not that they didn't submit to allah .. you make them look soooooo innocent

the fault of the west was invading and killing more than two millions if not more of muslims during their wars

the fault of the west was their greed and desire to make them self rich on muslims corpses

don't drift away from reality here .. i don't know drag you back to reality by mentioning

how many western country invaded us and killed us past the ages

Well, you are wrong. You’ve bought into the hype. There were no two million Muslims killed by coalition forces. What do you have to say about the hundreds of thousands that Saddam killed of his own people? Oh, that’s right, most of them were probably Shitties so it doesn’t matter. I imagine that a lot of them were also Kurds. I wouldn’t talk about reality if I were you. More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims than have at the hands of the West.

and you didn't use syria card yet you don't need it .. but who knows in a bit you might just try it :lol:

At least I try not to. I think I used Assad as an example once, but it was part of a list.

like i said .. before saying we don't look at our own history .. you should take a look at history

that you seem to have read of it the only part that makes muslims look bad

and you overlooked the most important parts

I don’t go looking for just the bad parts. I am very aware of the good. It is just insignificant at this time. To look at the good and ignore the bad is just plain ignorance until at least one begins to control the bad. Most of it is neither good nor bad. It is just history.

you know how many years my country was occupied by frace ? you know algeria gave million martyer to rid of france invasion ?

i'll let you answer that .. later

Well, as I mentioned before. Algeria brought it on herself by piracy. France said enough. If you don’t want to be invaded, then don’t hang a sign around your neck saying “kick me”. As far as Syria goes, France didn’t invade, it was awarded Syria because the Ottomans surrendered. For a time, it was French soil.

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Yes that is disgusting. A lot of ignorance. The TEA Party is against over spending by this government. It has nothing to do with ethnic cleansing. Liberalism and Muslim extremists have a lot in common. But the Muslims in this clip are mostly, if not all, American. Like the one guy is heard saying, “I’m from Fullerton”. These morons here don’t understand that these Muslims are the ones that they should make allies of. Muslims here can’t make a difference alone. They need the help of other Americans. But Americans aren’t the only morons…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HNAciTJHHU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLQXxnKMxNQ

well egypt still under the remainants of the old regiem so you get the idea

the brotherhood aren't really the angels also .. you see the difference between us

i don't pin blame on one side like you're trying to hint .. i blame every one who commit mistake

i don't try to paint christians or westerns in bad image i just point to their mistakes

i do the same with muslims so don't be shocked

but but .. there's very important point here you really should know and you don't

christians in middle east .. such as my country or egypt

have sided with dictators along the way i know few who gave their sons weapons to and send them to kill protestors

so if that doesn't raise hatred i don't know what would you should take this point to consider

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I am tired of seeing Muslims attack people. I’m merely warning that if Muslims don’t stop their own from attacking others, the West is going to lose patience and will put an end to it themselves.

I guess you didn’t like the reality check I gave you.

i doubt you told me anything i don't know already am quiet aware of muslims commiting bad mistake

but thing is .. you weren't aware that the west also caused the reasons and commited even worst mistakes

therefore .. reality check back at ya :P

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I'm not basing it on personal experience. I know anecdotes aren't statistical facts. I was just telling you that many people have had very real first-hand experiences with fundamentalist Muslims, and that their opinion of Islam has nothing to do with ignorance or Islamophobia. I've already gone through the "rebel against all things Islamic" phase and no longer hold a grudge towards Muslims. I've had nice experiences with them, and not all of Islam's teachings are bad. You don't have to worry about my objectivity. I base my opinion of Muslims on the Quran and Hadith, and how the ulema have interpreted them, as well as surveys or studies of Muslim opinion in various countries. For example, according to the Pew survey, dozens, possibly hundreds, of millions of Muslims (and in only a handful of Muslim countries; if all Muslim countries were surveyed, it would undoubtedly be at least a billion Muslims) who believe innocent men, women and children (Islamic adulthood begins at puberty, as you know) should be murdered for leaving Islam - a victimless thought crime. That isn't very peaceful, and if people keep saying only a very tiny minority of Muslims are extremists, Muslims will never reform.

As for my country, I can't tell you that. Partly for security reasons, but mostly for personal reasons that I don't expect anyone to understand. But I am in the Middle East. :)

well don't worry about not telling where you from i know the feeling i can't speak my mind on certain poltics view eaither

but i don't think that the surveyed done by the western sources " same resources who were used to draw muslims in bad image so that it would same ok for the usa to invade and kill them " i don't believe these sources to be accurate or just

all am saying based on my personal knowledge of muslims i know and i know alot

that they don't care weahther person is turning away from islam or not . they just don't care

they don't think it's alright .. they don't think he should be murdered just no care about it

live and let live .. that's what made me question the survies along with many mistakes in it i referred to

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So they are immigrants to the West coming from Muslim nations. So would any Muslims from these other nations do the same if they lived here? I think they would. Mostly because they feel naked in a new land. And that’s ok. But the job of the immigrant is to absorb and acclimate into their new country. Learn to pick your battles. The Muslim voice has every right to be heard, but it needs to know its place until it finds its niche in the culture. That’s what made New York City so vital into indoctrinating the masses to the American way of life.

So there are no orthodox Muslims? I would say that the extremists are the purest. But I wish there were more vocal Muslim heretics. That is the path of reform. I consider myself a Christian heretic. I think that this is the level of detachment that all religion should be at.

Yes, they are real Islam. And they are used by the Saud family to stay in power. Would it be any better or worse without the Sauds? If they don’t like it, then why in the Hell don’t they do something about it? Unfortunately, what would happen would be to replace a secular dictator with a sectarian extremist group, like what happened in Egypt. That’s just jumping out of the pan and into the fire. The Arab Spring has been a huge disappointment. The Muslim world is in such a disjointed mess because there are no strong moderate voices for reform. And this will insure Western involvement. Because the West can no longer sit idly by and wait for this unrest to spill out.

You’re not to clear here. But if I understand, yes, I believe that at a certain period in the Ottoman Empire, an attempt to reform was made. But it died out long before the fall of the Empire. Today, I do not see any encouragement to evolve. All the West sees is the desire to return to the hard line. That’s not the West’s fault.

That’s where you are wrong. Arabs aren’t the only ones that can be Muslim and Shiite is just as much Muslim as Sunni is. Just as Catholic and Protestant are both Christian. Yes, I’ve read Shiite history (don’t quiz me :) ), but I still would say they are Muslim. Ok, I’ll respond to that. But if I remember right, Shiites are followers of Ali who was the appointed successor of Mohammed. And they believe that only Allah can appoint their leadership. That they have 8 pillars and not 5. For the Shitte, the Mahdi has already been here and is in hiding, the Sunni is still waiting for his appearance. Kind a like the relationship that Jesus has between Jewish and Christian. Christians are waiting for the second coming and the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah. I’ve always found that interesting. Beyond this, I’d probably have to go google for more and I probably will. I am always open to learn what I can. But from this, I see no difference between the two. There are major doctrinal differences between Catholic and Protestant. In general, Catholics require an intercessor (i.e. a priest) to confess one’s sins. Protestants don’t. Protestants believe in full emersion, Catholics don’t. But they are still Christian.

Alright, fine. Let me back track and say the ruling class want it. And they are their nation. The silent majority as being such has given up their right to voice opposition. Hezbollah is the face of Lebanon. Hezbollah pacifies the population by building schools and hospitals, but it’s not for the people. Hezbollah is simply buying protection. And the sheep go back to sleep. I ought to know, I see the same thing happening in this country under the current regime. Yes, the Taliban want it and following the techniques of coercion as laid out in the Quran, will force it upon everyone else.

Well, I was kind of rambling, but the point is that there are so many examples of Muslims being spoiled brats in their adopted country. And in some instances follow certain document patterns to over throw the current government for purposes of conquest. This is how Islam has spread – not just by the sword. I have no problem with anyone building a place of worship, but given the current circumstances, to build Cordova house where they want it is showing a lack of understanding by insulting American sensibilities. Does that not count for anything? And it’s not really the mosque but the meaning behind the name – totally inappropriate. That you bring it up shows how out of touch you are and proves my point. You’re not thinking and you don’t care. So why do you expect any respect to be returned?

I guess the feeling is mutual. But we both know this is just an excuse. If we took Bin Laden’s advice and got out of all Muslim territory, there’d soon be some other excuse. Again that is what Islam does.

Let’s start with the Muslim invasion of Europe. Shall we talk about the conquest of Iberia, the destruction of the Byzantine Empire, the invasion of the Balkans, the Barbary Pirates… Yeah, that really puts the Crusades into perspective finally. The first Crusade was in 1096. Al Andalus was in 711. The British Empire is probably the most notable invader. But the thing about that is that the British invaded to exploit resources (not to rob or steel). They weren’t really interested in converting anyone. Maybe except to Anglo-ize the locals just enough to run British style bureaucracy. The outcome of that was leaving a score of independent modern nations. Now if you are referring to Ottoman lands lost after WWI, that is not an invasion. Perhaps you were referring to the French invasion of Algeria? Now the Barbary Pirates wouldn’t have had anything to do with that now would they? Except for the British (and then in some cases) the only time Western powers invaded Muslim nations was because the Muslims felt it was their right to attack the West. And when that backfired because the West was able to play the game better, Muslims played the victim card.

What do you mean by 2 million paid the price? Between 2 and 4 million Iraqis left the country and most of them were Christian. Or are you buying into the inflated numbers of killed? The estimates are between 80,000 and 100,000 and most of those were those that fought against coalition forces. So please, get your numbers right. And if you think you are right , just think about it logically. If it was the intention of the American military to just go out and kill anyone and everyone, then they wouldn’t have needed ground troops. They could just bomb the Hell out of the Iraqis. If you know anything about training techniques, you know that troops train in urban warfare to go in, in a surgical manner and keep collateral damage to a minimum. So there is no way to have very large body counts.

Well, let’s see…what was the reason to invade? Despite the media and the hype, the reason as per Resolution 1441 was because Saddam violated the cease fire. And it was a good thing we went in when we did because we almost walked into a Shiite-Sunni civil war. But our invasion quelled that or there could have been millions of dead. And then France got p***ed at us. Not because we were violating Iraqi rights, but because we cut in on their deal with Saddam. The French wanted to arm Iraq with nukes to counter Iran. Are you kidding me? Isn’t India and Pakistan enough? On many levels, Iraq was a necessary war. I just wish we could have completed the task.

Well, you are wrong. You’ve bought into the hype. There were no two million Muslims killed by coalition forces. What do you have to say about the hundreds of thousands that Saddam killed of his own people? Oh, that’s right, most of them were probably Shitties so it doesn’t matter. I imagine that a lot of them were also Kurds. I wouldn’t talk about reality if I were you. More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims than have at the hands of the West.

At least I try not to. I think I used Assad as an example once, but it was part of a list.

I don’t go looking for just the bad parts. I am very aware of the good. It is just insignificant at this time. To look at the good and ignore the bad is just plain ignorance until at least one begins to control the bad. Most of it is neither good nor bad. It is just history.

Well, as I mentioned before. Algeria brought it on herself by piracy. France said enough. If you don’t want to be invaded, then don’t hang a sign around your neck saying “kick me”. As far as Syria goes, France didn’t invade, it was awarded Syria because the Ottomans surrendered. For a time, it was French soil.

i'll try to cut this short they do that because in muslims country they had it their way

they were the majority .. just like christians in the west

when they feel miority and unheard or abused .. they snapped some in logic way

some in stupid way .. depends on the person really

and no not really there are NONE who applies real islam you talk of dictators in saudia as if they were applying islam for real .. they only apply it for the weak and poor .. while people in power get it all

why they don't do something about .. its about time

the lack of evolve we got 300 hundered years of invasion and occupation to thank the west for

try occupying a country for 300 years sucking it's nature resources and keep people from modern life and evolove

then let me know how that came up ? of course we fell behind .. due to repeatedly invasions

i never said only arabs can be muslims i said shittes are not muslims i won't talk about it i already replied with that

on previous post i just made you'll read it ..

and not really even if hezoballah builds schools and all doesn't mean the country under islamic rule

they're just sect performing their right and people get to choose otherwise

just like some christians builds churches .. why is it always different to you when muslims do it ??

my god there's still much to read am going to take a cig break and go back i'll hold to this point

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RH, have you seen my thread about the "moderate Muslims"? I stopped posting new videos because it's pointless, as the moderates are a tiny powerless minority, but there are a few videos there you might be interested in.

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