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jugoso

Pope reaffirms ban on women priests

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The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

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The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

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Posted (edited)

I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Edited by Sakari

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The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do :)

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Sakari

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

They are:

A record 87,000 Austrians left the Church in 2010, many in reaction to sexual abuse scandals.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Yes.

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

Star of the Sea

I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do

Perhaps because many women raised Catholic have changed to more progressive religions which have no hierarcy based on gender. Would it be too forward of me to ask what eneration you are from and whether you were raised catholic or converted by choice as an adult ?

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I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

In history, before Christianity came to be, women had rights, in Rome they could inherit the family estate, women were revered as the life givers. Once Christianity became popular, women lost rights, they became property and looked upon as tempting men when men found them attractive. I took a Medieval course and it was quite informative.

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I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

Would it surprise you to learn that rates of child abuse in the Catholic Church are not discernibly different to any other denomination, or any other profession for that matter.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

I wouldn't necessarily take the stance of the RCC by saying that Jesus only chose males, but the Bible gives clear guidelines for relationships. Jesus is depicted as the groom and the church (his people) as "the bride". To reflect this, local leaders of local congregations (the overseers) should be men to continue that groom-bride symbolism - as Christ is the groom of the universal bride-church, so the local leader is the local groom of the local bride-church.

It has nothing to do with whether a woman is "good" or "smart" enough. Some small groups of individuals probably do believe that women are somehow incapable/incompetent for the job, but I'm just saying that it is not the pattern God has planned for his church. It doesn't mean women are inferior or less than a man, it just reflects different roles that God has planned for his people. Women can still be involved with ministry at church, and I would actually think it dysfunctional if women were not involved in many different ministries.

That is my opinion on the Christian church. The reasoning seems different to the RCC, but the conclusion is the same.

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In history, before Christianity came to be, women had rights, in Rome they could inherit the family estate, women were revered as the life givers. Once Christianity became popular, women lost rights, they became property and looked upon as tempting men when men found them attractive. I took a Medieval course and it was quite informative.

Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented. In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals. Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others. Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate. Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men. It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up :tu:

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Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented. In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals. Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others. Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate. Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men. It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up :tu:

Check out ancient Roman history and you will see the rights that were taken away from women when Christianity was adopted as the officicial religion.

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I think they should allow it, it could help out with their epidemic of Child Porn/molesting issues.

How? I dont see how women priestes could help out?? beside that the problems isnt men or women, but the mass media who gives a poor image of the church.

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

why? maybe people are smarter than the media gives? and in the end, that is not the most important issue....

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

yes, they do.

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Check out ancient Roman history and you will see the rights that were taken away from women when Christianity was adopted as the officicial religion.

I have checked it out. And in the earliest days (aka, the centuries immediately after Christ) women were given Rights previously unheard of. When Christianity became the "Official Religion" (4th-5th Centuries) even then women largely retained those Rights. Then as the Church gained in power and influence, so they grew in their desire for more power and more influence, and slowly the Rights of women were taken away. By the time the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split, the Rights of women were virtually non-existent. None of that takes away from the early centuries of Christianity when women were given greater Rights than they had previously had.

~ PA

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Posted (edited)

Ehhhh.. God dosnt assign gender roles. That is up to us, quite clearly people occupy a bell curve of criss crossing aptitudes. They always have and always will.

Women are perfectly capable of being spiritual leaders. I have a good friend who is a Wiccan high priestess and their female leaders do just fine. I'm not Wiccan, but when she talks I listen.....carefully.

The man that maried my wife and I was also a wonderful spiritual leader and catholic priest. He actually brought elements of Asian philosophy into his church. Got a little tipsy at our wedding, and I respected him even more for it. When I told him It would be a lie for me to convert to catholocism, he understood completely, and paved the way for my wife to have the catholic wedding she always (moderate priests have sort of a dont ask dont tell policy) dreamed of despite the fact I would never be catholic. We were good friends until his death.

For Catholics to have female priests and all the hoopla about god original plans is BS. It's a smart business decision. They are already loosing and will continue to loose the support of Christians that have more.... Well... moderate... Liberal I guess.... sensibilities. This will never change. If they follow in suit then they will also loose the mass of conservative Catholics. It would be a double wammy and the death of the church. The catholic church is a survivor with great business minds behind it. They are not about to give up their base clientel just to be more modern.

Besides, can you imagine the worlds first pregnant catholic priest. Not saying a mother can't be a wonderful spiritual leader, but the very idea of a woman priestest who can get maried means they have to give up their stance on birth control otherwise she's going to end up with ten kids or a very sexually frustrated husband. I can go on about the 10 dozen ramifications and slippery slopes. Imagine a lesbian couple running a catholic congregation together. ( not that I would have the slightest problem with it, in fact, I might like to go to catholic masses more then) it is only one step away from allowing women to be priests and allowing them to marry.

Its not just about what's fair for women. If they give in, the entire structure and beleif stances has to change. It just would no longer be catholic. My guess is that they will hang on for centuries still.

Edited by Seeker79

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How? I dont see how women priestes could help out?? beside that the problems isnt men or women, but the mass media who gives a poor image of the church.

why? maybe people are smarter than the media gives? and in the end, that is not the most important issue....

Did the media make the Priests and members of the Catholic church that molested kids do it?.......Or did they just report it?

Tell you what, if the Catholic Church let women become priests it would show that the religion is fair.........

And, if the religion would in good faith, get rid of, and prosecute the ones doing the molesting, instead of hiding it, and forgiving it, maybe that would help also....

Lead by example right?

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Posted (edited)

Actually the history of the early church (early being circa pre-8th Century AD, give or take a couple of centuries), women were given new Rights and freedoms that was unprecedented. In these earliest days, women were for the first time allowed to worship alongside men as equals. Women were given a voice and people such as Priscilla and Junia, mentioned in the New Testament) were key figures in the early Christian movement, ministering God's word to others. Unfortunately, as the church grew in power, so it grew in its lust to maintain hold on its power and dominate. Thus turning into the Middle Ages (the period you studied) Rights were subsequently taken away from women and they became property, and denigrated by men. It's a totally different picture in the Middle Ages to how Christianity originally begun.

Just thought I'd bring that up :tu:

That is a slight misrepresentation of the situation, PA. In ancient Rome (from where we see the early Christian Church largely being developed as per Paul's ministry), there were numerous deities worshipped and some of those were worshipped by men, while others were worshipped by women. Subsequently, these 'gender-specific deities' developed gender-specific priesthoods. However, there was no 'rule' or law forbidding women from worshipping.

In a monotheism, there is of course no scope for deities that may be worshipped separately by men or women. Thus, early Christianity had to make a compromise towards allowing women to worship the (male) God, or risk losing a substantial proportion of it's early devotees/convertees. This was not a "right" granted to women they had not previously enjoyed.

There is no evidence that the early Christian Church embraced allowing women into it's ranks as the equals of men, indeed the admonition against women entering into the priesthood would suggest otherwise.

Edited by Leonardo

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In order to control the world, you must control what the world wants. Everybody wants women. for sex, comfort, caring, love, they raised us, gave us life, nurtured us and if the church holds power over women by not letting them progress in society then they hold the keys to the world. So by keeping women in the kitchen they keep their place in power.

Phew, the conspirasist in me is happy now xP

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Posted (edited)

A sexist male will say - It should not be allowed

A decent perosn will say - Why not? I say go for it... God doesn't care who does it

Others would not care...each to their own

Like I said decent folks will not care or discriminate

In general ....I do not see ANY point in trying to excuse your own discriminations..... If you are sexist and show it... Don't excuse it... Well you can try IF you think there are stupid people that will believe you

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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If someone is called to be God's representative on earth, and act as a spiritual leader, I find it impossible to believe that God would want that person to stay in the background if that person is female. And when an institution such as the Catholic Church denies women this opportunity, based on the bible & history, I have to believe it has much more to do with power and bias that the sacred. I believe we're all equal in the eyes of God, however, sometimes mankind seems to be partially blind, at will. If there is a God, I don't believe she would want me to be less than I can be.

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I have checked it out. And in the earliest days (aka, the centuries immediately after Christ) women were given Rights previously unheard of. When Christianity became the "Official Religion" (4th-5th Centuries) even then women largely retained those Rights. Then as the Church gained in power and influence, so they grew in their desire for more power and more influence, and slowly the Rights of women were taken away. By the time the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox church split, the Rights of women were virtually non-existent. None of that takes away from the early centuries of Christianity when women were given greater Rights than they had previously had.

~ PA

Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University course. Women lost rights once Christianity came to be. What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read. We differ in our opinions. :yes:

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The older I get, The harder it is for me to "swallow" statements such as those above. I find it to be "out-of-date" and also quite insulting to women.

It's just like the Church's positions on homosexuality, abortion, birth control, etc., etc. - if you don't agree with it, don't be a Catholic.

Pretty simple actually.

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Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University course. Women lost rights once Christianity came to be. What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read. We differ in our opinions. :yes:

I don't think we differ as much as you think. I agree that when "Christianity came to be" women did lose rights, but when did this happen? Christianity has existed since 35 AD. The State-endorsed religion of Christianity has existed since the 4th Century AD (give or take). And the denomination known as the "Roman Catholic Church" has existed since the 10th Century AD. You said your course was based on medieval history, which covers a period approximately from the 8th-16th Century (give or take a century, depending on who you talk to). I simply addressed the treatment of women in Christianity before the time of your study and expertise.

I do not deny that women's Rights were taken away. I'm just going by my knowledge of history that said Rights were taken away sometime between the 5th and the 10th Century. And even if they were taken away in the 4th Century (which would contradict my study that I have conducted) it does not take away from the first three centuries of Christian faith from the 1st-3rd Centuries, AD.

Any info to the contrary, feel free to share :tu:

~ PA

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Well, what you read was totally opposite of the books used in my University course. Women lost rights once Christianity came to be. What ever, you believe what you read, I will believe what I read. We differ in our opinions. :yes:

You are right, and have been......

Great thing about being agnostic, one reads and learns about many religions.....

Christians squashed Pagans / Heathens.......

220px-Hypatia_Raphael_Sanzio_detail.jpg

Hypatia of Alexandria, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer, a pagan killed by a Christian mob in March 415 CE.

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There is an assumption that what the Church decided was what God wanted. I question that assumption. Given the history of the RCC, i.e. Malleus Maleficarum, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Childrens Crusade, the opposition to birth control, the failure to deal effectively with child-molesting priests, etc. it is my opinion that what God may want and what the church wants are sometimes two different things. Perhaps the RCC has accomplished some great things, and brings succor to many, but literally millions of lives have been lost because of, at the very least, bad decision-making. This seems to be another one of those poor decisions. I am capable of rational, reasonable, critical thinking, and I won't suppress that for any person or institution.

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Posted (edited)

Sakari

I am still surprised the Catholic Church has such a big following, with bigotry and above issues, it seems they would be losing fan support.

They are:

A record 87,000 Austrians left the Church in 2010, many in reaction to sexual abuse scandals.

Do they give any reason why a woman is not good/smart enough to take that position?

Yes.

The Catholic Church teaches that it has no authority to allow women to become priests because Jesus Christ willingly chose only men as his apostles when he instituted the priesthood at the Last Supper.

Star of the Sea

I'm a Catholic female who doesn't find it insulting, infact I don't know any Catholic females who do

Perhaps because many women raised Catholic have changed to more progressive religions which have no hierarchy based on gender. Would it be too forward of me to ask what generation you are from and whether you were raised catholic or converted by choice as an adult ?

Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 (:P ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/women-and-the-priesthood

Edited by Star of the Sea

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I am not a church goer,corse I don.t trust catholic religion anyway nor do I like the Poop,oops I mean the Pope.Still I don't or wont listen to women preach,To me I feel that religion is false and evil for they allow one to worship Idols' and they took books from the bible out and placed their own books in it,In my opinion I really don't care what they do as long as they keep that stuff away from me.I am all for the women movement,They want Equil rights and all that stuff,Good I have no problem treating them like they want to be treated,They should have every right to do what they want,But they should also get the same rewards and punishments the men do.But as for not letting them be preachers,Hey If they want to follow that religion and not be allowed to preach,then I think they should do what they are told to do"YEAH RIGHT"(cence when do women listen to men anyway) Hey Im being sarcastic in this post so I dont want any of you bleeding heart crybabies to take me serious and hate me for the crap I just posted.In reality Women should have the right to do what ever their heart's desire.If it were not for some women in this world we would not be here.Message to the Pope:Dude......You blow chunks.May the fleas of a thousand Camels infest your arm pits.

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The argument doesn't follow: All the apostles were men, so therefore, women can't perform holy sacrament. As for people deserting the Anglican church in droves because women can be ordained, it's still gender bias, whether people are deserting in droves or not. Just because a large group of people behave in a certain manner or hold certain beliefs in common doesn't justify it.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Jugoso,

I'm a cradle Catholic... born 1960 (:P ) I'm not sure your comment that "many woman raised Catholic have progressed to different religions with no hierarchy based on gender" rings true. Look at what is happening in the Church of England because of woman being ordained, they are coming over to the Catholic Church in their droves!

Also Catholic schools are thriving... my girls age 21, 19 and 14 see no problem with woman not being ordained into the RCC! Jesus knew what he was doing at the time of choosing his Apostles... or don't you think he had the foresight to see that times would change?

edit: to add a link on the RCC reason for not ordaining woman

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/women-and-the-priesthood

Without making this a personal criticism, Star, as it may be applied (imo) to any Catholic woman who feels as your daughters do, do you not consider this [the highlighted] may be a result of indoctrination, rather than reason?

Edited by Leonardo

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