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1Ophelia

God Vs Logic

38 posts in this topic

I am simply going to dot point information suggesting God was not real. Debate them if you please.

1.Probably the most asked question about god! Christians say that God created everything, everything that exsists. Who created God?

2.Christians also say that you should love everybody and treat them fairly.

Example of hatred caused by God/Christians.

a) Have you ever seen Missippi burning the movie? They used religion as an excuse to treat these people like animals (and many other excuses) this really did happen, in case your not aware of that?

B) Fights are caused over Religions. It's happened in the past, it's happening in the present and will be happening in the future. So much love.

c) Hate on Homosexual? against your religon.

d) Send non believers to hell? Even if the non believer has not done anything significally bad, Oh I suppose not believing in a God that's never seen or has evidence he ever exsisted is a terrible sin and we sha'll be punished for it?

e)Nazi's were christians?

f)Crusaders who raped, killed and looted people in the name of "God".

Simply look at your history and see how much "love" Christians/Gods have caused. Witches are a good example. If a women was accused of being a witch she were to be burned alive. So loving.

Now I'm not saying that ALL christians are non loving, though just open your eyes and see what your 'loving' faith has done.

3. The bible states that God created Adam and Eve, first before any other life (Besides plantation I'm assuming) Humans they were ofcourse. So what do you call those archeaological discoveries known as dinosaurs?

4.

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4. It's impossible to inpregnant someone unless they had sexual intercourse. So how did the "virgin mary" fall pregnant again?

5. Simply there isn't any evidence of God exsisting, if there is any please post a reply.

There are many reasons why God hasn't, isn't and never will exsist, only in our imaginations ;) Ofcourse.

Sorry about the previous post, it seemed to have automatically posted itself? Rather annoying actually. Didn't get to check my grammar, Oh well you get the point.

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4. It's impossible to inpregnant someone unless they had sexual intercourse. So how did the "virgin mary" fall pregnant again?

Not impossible at all. What about AI?

She could have fallen pregnant by means other than contemporary sexual intercourse.

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Here's some answers, for the sake of interest. Some may be what I believe, some what I think could be possible, some may be me being a devil's advocate. I'm not saying which is which. :D

1. God wasn't created. God always has been, and always will be.

2. Wasn't a question, but just going to say that not all who believe in various forms of "God" are Christians, and those less than desirable deeds you mentioned were done by the will of man, with the interpreted moral backing of their God. And maybe "Hell" isn't such a literal burning pit of endless pain and suffering, but a state of mind, or being. But main point, man will do what man will do. I don't see how blaming their god will account for their wrongdoings, even when they might.

3. Again, think you're taking a commonly morphing symbolic story that has been in many different religions and mythologies, and trying to paint it in black and white hues, taking it at a literal face value.

4. See answer #3.

5. I would have been right with you on this one in the past, but was shocked myself when I had received some evidence, very personally. But it goes beyond what someone could tell someone else I believe, even if I was able to write it all out and share it with you. I feel these things are fine-tuned to our self, and to share our personal experiences (or evidence), it wouldn't be translated as it should be understood. I think maybe if you're looking for evidence of God outside of yourself from others, you're right, you will get none. Reminded of this quote from the now deceased Yogi Bhajan:

"We are all trained in the Piscean Age to find God outside of us. That's [what] the religion has taught us... that look for God... and the way some of our children and teenagers are confused, as once we were confused, because we did not teach them to find God within the self. So when you do not try to find God within yourself, you do not find God at all."

I don't think it's safe for you, a mere mortal woman, to say with such certainty that a God does or does not exist, based on how you see the world. :P And if you can't trust what goes on in your own mind, what can you trust? Not yourself, that's for sure. You can't trust someone who thinks you're insane.

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Here's some answers, for the sake of interest. Some may be what I believe, some what I think could be possible, some may be me being a devil's advocate. I'm not saying which is which. :D

1. God wasn't created. God always has been, and always will be.

An assumption based on nothing.

3. Again, think you're taking a commonly morphing symbolic story that has been in many different religions and mythologies, and trying to paint it in black and white hues, taking it at a literal face value.

That's all religions throughout history since the beginnings of the written language.

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Iv always wonderd about the dinosaur part.. and what if during the big bang, if that's how it all really started.. maby a concious being (god) manifested from it and is all around us :) or maby if there is a spiritual place maby, the atoms and protons and all that stuff leaked of into this realm or deminsion and cause the big bang or something... I think the aliens had a big part in religion.. they used a big nuke weapon or pulled a comet in and killed the big lizards to make room for their creation. Ok I'm just.rambling now ;)

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Iv always wonderd about the dinosaur part.. and what if during the big bang, if that's how it all really started.. maby a concious being (god) manifested from it and is all around us :) or maby if there is a spiritual place maby, the atoms and protons and all that stuff leaked of into this realm or deminsion and cause the big bang or something... I think the aliens had a big part in religion.. they used a big nuke weapon or pulled a comet in and killed the big lizards to make room for their creation. Ok I'm just.rambling now ;)

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Posted (edited)

An assumption based on nothing.

I guess so. But see #5. Try it out some time. Really try it out. You might surprise yourself on some random day. Or it could be nothing. If so, any opinion on the subject is an assumption based on nothing.

That's all religions throughout history since the beginnings of the written language.

How they were meant to be, or how they are commonly interpreted? Because they are interpreted both literally, and as metaphor, often by varying opinions on a same "side".

Edited by _Only

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I guess so. But see #5. Try it out some time. Really try it out. You might surprise yourself on some random day. Or it could be nothing. If so, any opinion on the subject is an assumption based on nothing.

Aye, though even people that are taking drugs can have a hallucination. It doesn't make their experience real. The human brain is an very interesting piece of biology. Chemical imabalances can make all sorts of things happen. Case in point, if a person sees shadow creatures, it's an indication of schizophrenia, though the person may think it is demons following him. I would never take a vision at face value. Good rule of thumb.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think it's safe for you, a mere mortal woman, to say with such certainty that a God does or does not exist, based on how you see the world. :P And if you can't trust what goes on in your own mind, what can you trust? Not yourself, that's for sure. You can't trust someone who thinks you're insane.

Hi _Only

With all due respect, I think it is perfectly safe for a ''mere mortal'' woman or man to say with certainty that there is no god. Just as safe as it is for believers to say there is. Which one of us is the insane person? Neither.

I can say with absolute certainty that there is no god because that is what I truly believe and nobody has yet convinced me otherwise. You, and other believers would say totally the opposite. I can respect that and have no problem with it. :)

edit....typo :)

second edit....by the way, logic would suggest there is no god :innocent:

Edited by Englishgent

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Hi _Only

With all due respect, I think it is perfectly safe for a ''mere mortal'' woman or man to say with certainty that there is no god. Just as safe as it is for believers to say there is. Which one of us is the insane person? Neither.

I can say with absolute certainty that there is no god because that is what I truly believe and nobody has yet convinced me otherwise. You, and other believers would say totally the opposite. I can respect that and have no problem with it. :)

edit....typo :)

Perfectly safe to say there is no god. Not perfectly safe to say with certainty, though, that you know it is the truth. Believing and knowing are two very different things. Absolute certainty isn't a term to throw around loosely, especially when others will get easily offended when you aren't able to back up why.

And I personally don't follow any religion, or believe in any certain God, by the way. I am just open to the idea. But I can't pretend to know with absolute certainty.

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Hi _Only

With all due respect, I think it is perfectly safe for a ''mere mortal'' woman or man to say with certainty that there is no god. Just as safe as it is for believers to say there is. Which one of us is the insane person? Neither.

I can say with absolute certainty that there is no god because that is what I truly believe and nobody has yet convinced me otherwise. You, and other believers would say totally the opposite. I can respect that and have no problem with it. :)

edit....typo :)

second edit....by the way, logic would suggest there is no god :innocent:

The abrahamic god or any collective god? And if any how how exactly does logic suggest that?

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Perfectly safe to say there is no god. Not perfectly safe to say with certainty, though, that you know it is the truth. Believing and knowing are two very different things. Absolute certainty isn't a term to throw around loosely, especially when others will get easily offended when you aren't able to back up why.

And I personally don't follow any religion, or believe in any certain God, by the way. I am just open to the idea. But I can't pretend to know with absolute certainty.

Well _Only.

There are people here who will say, with absolute certainty that there IS a god. They will say they know this,,,,well,,because they do! They cant back it up other than saying, they just know.

I dont see how me saying that with absolute certainty there is NO god can offend anyone. It is what I believe just as they believe the opposite. I dont get offended at them so why should they be offended by what I say?

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The abrahamic god or any collective god? And if any how how exactly does logic suggest that?

Hi Seeker,

I dont find it logical to believe in texts that were written thousands of years ago which cannot be backed up by evidence, whether it be the bible or any other religous book. For logical answers I prefer the scientific methods of proving one thing or another.

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Posted (edited)

Well _Only.

There are people here who will say, with absolute certainty that there IS a god. They will say they know this,,,,well,,because they do! They cant back it up other than saying, they just know.

I dont see how me saying that with absolute certainty there is NO god can offend anyone. It is what I believe just as they believe the opposite. I dont get offended at them so why should they be offended by what I say?

But getting even with the other side of the fence by saying the same thing they do, but from your side, doesn't make you, or them, any more certain than you or they believe.

And you know why some would get offended. They believe something. But your belief is that they are wrong. No one wants to be told that they are wrong. Especially in something they devote their life and morals to. I don't think an atheist devotes their lives, emotions, and morals to nothing, which is what you believe in. Easy to not get offended when there is no dedication to defend. That's where the difference is that I think you miss. :P

Edited by _Only

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But getting even with the other side of the fence by saying the same thing they do, but from your side, doesn't make you, or them, any more certain than you or they believe.

And you know why some would get offended. They believe something. But your belief is that they are wrong. No one wants to be told that they are wrong. Especially in something they devote their life and morals to. I don't think an atheist devotes their lives, emotions, and morals to nothing, which is what you believe in. Easy to not get offended when there is no dedication to defend. That's where the difference is that I think you miss. :P

I certainly see your point and I have to agree to a certain extent. But, I will say what I believe with as much certainty as the opposing side. Their belief is that I am wrong. My belief is that they are wrong, obviously. That goes without aaying, no matter how much certainty is attached to it. It is not my intent to offend. I am as entitled to my beliefs as they are to theirs.

The one thing I must disagree with you on is that being an atheist does not mean you dont devote your life to emotions, morals etc. Of course they do. I have devoted my life to what many would call a christian way of life. Helping others. Being there when needed. Assisting where I can, even financially. If anything is going to offend anyone it would be your statement regarding atheists. But dont worry. I dont offend easily :)

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The one thing I must disagree with you on is that being an atheist does not mean you dont devote your life to emotions, morals etc. Of course they do. I have devoted my life to what many would call a christian way of life. Helping others. Being there when needed. Assisting where I can, even financially. If anything is going to offend anyone it would be your statement regarding atheists. But dont worry. I dont offend easily :)

You misunderstand the point. You are just as devoted as the next person to living well. But there is no belief in a deity tied to it to feel the need to defend. You do what you want for your own reasons. Use the word "nothing" I used in the post you quoted, and change it to God. And look at it from their point of view. That's what I meant. But if you're just going to mold what I said into saying that you don't have any morals, I move on, as there's an obvious lack of communication.

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You misunderstand the point. You are just as devoted as the next person to living well. But there is no belief in a deity tied to it to feel the need to defend. You do what you want for your own reasons. Use the word "nothing" I used in the post you quoted, and change it to God. And look at it from their point of view. That's what I meant. But if you're just going to mold what I said into saying that you don't have any morals, I move on, as there's an obvious lack of communication.

Apologies for any communication error. Always difficult in a forum such as this to fully understand sometimes.

But why should I look at things from their point of view? They hardly ever look at things from my point of view.

Occasionally you get a religous person whoh is willing to hear your side of the story but it isn't often.

We see things differently but should still respect each others views and opinions without being offended by them.

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Aye, though even people that are taking drugs can have a hallucination. It doesn't make their experience real. The human brain is an very interesting piece of biology. Chemical imabalances can make all sorts of things happen. Case in point, if a person sees shadow creatures, it's an indication of schizophrenia, though the person may think it is demons following him. I would never take a vision at face value. Good rule of thumb.

Indeed it is, Meiliken. And just one of the many evidences that lead a person to faith. You think it totally reasonable that something as intricately and elegantly structured occurred randomly and without any meaning. Just as you cannot accept it as evidence of design and creation, I cannot accept it's randomness and neither of us can prove our views are the correct one. The difference is that I'm completely okay with you holding that opinion and feel no need to question your sanity or intellect. The whole beauty of the God question is it's insolubility. We cannot prove and so we are forced (by our Creator) to choose what we believe.

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Apologies for any communication error. Always difficult in a forum such as this to fully understand sometimes.

But why should I look at things from their point of view? They hardly ever look at things from my point of view.

Occasionally you get a religous person whoh is willing to hear your side of the story but it isn't often.

We see things differently but should still respect each others views and opinions without being offended by them.

I totally agree with you on this one ;)

Countless times have I come a cross a Chrsitian that has persistantly tried to convert me. Yet when I defend my self, they get all defensive and angry? I have had teachers basically in front of class telling students around me and myself that God is real. I go to the local book store and because the owners a christian everything is basically about God, I have to order books because their is little variety.

I'll put it bluntly many christians or religous people I have meet have basically thrown a bible in my face and when I refuse they get all defensive? How am I meant to respond?

Also to add to the list.

6. Christians completely and utterly go against evolution. Though it is evident evolution occurred and is still occurring.

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Before you start trying to explain God, try explaining something like time, the non constant, constant that rules our life and somehow changes and distorts (close to a black hole/the speed of light it slows etc)

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Posted (edited)

Indeed it is, Meiliken. And just one of the many evidences that lead a person to faith. You think it totally reasonable that something as intricately and elegantly structured occurred randomly and without any meaning. Just as you cannot accept it as evidence of design and creation, I cannot accept it's randomness and neither of us can prove our views are the correct one. The difference is that I'm completely okay with you holding that opinion and feel no need to question your sanity or intellect. The whole beauty of the God question is it's insolubility. We cannot prove and so we are forced (by our Creator) to choose what we believe.

The only kink in that line of thinking though is that believing in something just because it can't be disproven or solved does not lend it credence. The same can be said about other mythical things like ancient mythology with norse gods, greek gods, pagan gods and the like. While I do think there is a higher consciousness, I also know there is nothing to prove such, so cannot stand by it as a factual thing. I don't cast down those that believe, but I do cast down those that refuse facts. The irrational mind grasps fantasy when it refuses facts. Those are the minds that are dangerous to society. The same minds that crash planes into buildings and kill babies for being birthed from pagans. When fantasy overrides logic, the sanity of the person must be brought into question. The best stance one can have is the "I don't know, but I believe".

Edited by Meiliken

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1: Who (or what) created god has always been a puzzle and, as of yet, I don't know. People often offer a 'solution' that god has always been, which is just puzzling.

2: Christians often say they believe that, but in practice? It's actually more what the bible defines as being loving, not what actually is. So if what they do harms a person, they'll keep doing it regardless because the bible says that's the loving course of action. As for hell, that's another thing that's puzzled me. Christians claim that god is all loving... and then makes people suffer forever. That does not strike me as loving in the slightest. (Unless your definition of loveis severely warped.) Indeed, the christian god's idea of love seems severely warped.

3: That's only puzzling if it's taken literally. Very few people seem to take the account literally in any eal sense (though they still blame Adam and Eve for sin, another thing that shows the christian god as being petty).

4: As was pointed out it's possible to get pregnant without sex... now. Back then? Not so much. A virgin birth, to me, sounds rather far fetched. I'm reminded something that House said 'everybody lies'. To me it's more plausible that the virgin pregnancy was a lie rather than divine intervention.

5: Again, many people will simply respond that we are here, therefore god exists. (Or gesture around and use the world as an example of the same.) Is that evidence that god exists? Not so much. Christians was 'written by god' and thus is evidence, but since it was written by men, compiled by men and edited by men (with things added to it by men) that doesn't exactly qualify as evidence.

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The only kink in that line of thinking though is that believing in something just because it can't be disproven or solved does not lend it credence. The same can be said about other mythical things like ancient mythology with norse gods, greek gods, pagan gods and the like. While I do think there is a higher consciousness, I also know there is nothing to prove such, so cannot stand by it as a factual thing. I don't cast down those that believe, but I do cast down those that refuse facts. The irrational mind grasps fantasy when it refuses facts. Those are the minds that are dangerous to society. The same minds that crash planes into buildings and kill babies for being birthed from pagans. When fantasy overrides logic, the sanity of the person must be brought into question. The best stance one can have is the "I don't know, but I believe".

We are in agreement on this.

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Indeed it is, Meiliken. And just one of the many evidences that lead a person to faith. You think it totally reasonable that something as intricately and elegantly structured occurred randomly and without any meaning. Just as you cannot accept it as evidence of design and creation, I cannot accept it's randomness and neither of us can prove our views are the correct one. The difference is that I'm completely okay with you holding that opinion and feel no need to question your sanity or intellect. The whole beauty of the God question is it's insolubility. We cannot prove and so we are forced (by our Creator) to choose what we believe.

The 'design argument' overlooks the fact that we have evolved to notice design in seemingly random noise. This is an evolutionary survival trait that has been honed in us over millions of years. The reason it has lead us to such things as religion is the combination of that survival trait, with the intellect necessary to abstract it.

Digging deeper into the evolutionary aspect of what we are, brings one to realise that a lot of what we believe is, in fact, based on the non-random process of evolution. It is a misunderstanding to describe our evolution as 'random', but it also a misunderstanding to ascribe that non-random evolutionary process to a deliberate design.

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