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Karlis

DETROIT…A Failed Experiment in Socialism

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I don't know about prophetic, but the article appears to me to be distastefully fundamentalist, ignorant and white-supremacist. If the author truly is a journalist, then he has abandoned his journalistic objectivity for a hate-based ideology.

Detroit 'failed' because it's industry failed, not because of some "great socialist experiment".

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Although I agree with Leonardo as to the cause of the fall of Detroit and to a certain extend I call it "greed", the results are there. I've seen the same in Seine Saint Denis France where jobs losses, the departure of the working class and handme downs from mitterand socialists government have brought the entire region to its knees.

voiture_brulee_assurances3big.jpg

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Leo and everyone -- here is another pessimistic look at Detroit -- from a very pessimistic website. That said, how many of the 20 points raised are true for Detroit? And why is it so?

20 Things We Can Learn About The Future Of America From The Death Of Detroit

Source

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Leo and everyone -- here is another pessimistic look at Detroit -- from a very pessimistic website. That said, how many of the 20 points raised are true for Detroit? And why is it so?

20 Things We Can Learn About The Future Of America From The Death Of Detroit

Source

The lesson of Detroit is that over-specialisation is bad. Mmm-kay? :P

Detroit's decline was the result of a collapsed industry that Detroit had over-specialised in and therefore did not have the industrial flexibility to recover from. I don't agree with that site that the problems Detroit faced are necessarily relevant to the whole of the USA today, because the USA, as a nation, is not (at this present time) over-dependent on any single industry or sector of it's economy.

The evidence of this is the recent recession, caused by the mismanagement of risk in the financial sector. This sector of the US's economy is important, but still the problems it faced did not bring the US to it's knees, unlike the loss of the auto-industry to Detroit. This is largely due to the many other 'national industries' the US has, which serve as buffers when any one sector of industry is in crisis.

The only possibility that the US could face a "Detroit-style meltdown", would be if multiple critical sectors of the economy failed around the same time. The probablility of this happening, however, is low.

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Detroit = Auto Manufacturing = Unions = people repeatedly wanting more and more, having the backing via unions to actually get it, and then they get to watch the company they work for die because it is stuck between a failing economy and rising union demands. I work at just such a manufacturer and every day they cut more and more trying to keep afloat while the union guys are off in the corner complaining that they are in a locked contract for four more years so they can't strike or demand raises.

Don't get me wrong, there are a lot more factors, and I'm not suggesting the companies themselves are innocent by a long shot. Unions were a good thing until like everything else greed took it too far.

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Karlis and Leo, I mentioned France in the previous post it's simply because of the similarities and one thing is true socialism and pseudo capitalism (which in my opinion doesn't exist)(there are only oligarchies) are the real culprits of the crisis. If small business have been able to replace the auto industry of Detroit during the decline of it, none of this would have happen. Small businesses pay more taxes (they don't have the loopholes giant corporations do) and are more faithful to their employes who would have stayed in the area instead of selling and or abandoning their homes.

PS: When I lived in the States I was armed and all in the neighborhood knew it, nothing ever happen to my house or cars although I didn't live in the most upscale part of Denver. Since I moved to France, I had 2 attempted robberies and one car theft. I've beeb living in France for 3 and half years now. Police doesn't answers call because they are more afraid than the citizen.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know about prophetic, but the article appears to me to be distastefully fundamentalist, ignorant and white-supremacist. If the author truly is a journalist, then he has abandoned his journalistic objectivity for a hate-based ideology.

Detroit 'failed' because it's industry failed, not because of some "great socialist experiment".

Industry failed? Did people stop buying cars? No but the unions keep making more and more unreasonable demands until it's more cost efficient to just move the plant someplace else. Look at the NLRB Boeing situation. This is how the labor unions are in Detroit. Who wants to deal with that crap? And I disagree that there's a racist component to this argument. If anything Detroit's leaders have been racists like Maxine Waters, hostile and divisive, criticizing everyone else to mask their own poor leadership. The author's comments seem racist because it's too ridiculous to believe a city can devolve to that level.

BTW he pics in the article represent how about 90% of the city looks but nobody puts that in a postcard ...

Having fun in Detroit!

Wish you were here!

detroit-1-300x225.jpg

I laughed when I heard about the Black Panthers threatening to burn the city down. Ever heard of Devil's Night? They are about 20 years too late.

Edited by Illuminerdi
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yet again, anything wrong with America is put down to that great bogey, "Socialism". What was Detroit built on? The Car industry. Was that founded and run by the State? I don't think so. if anyone failed, it was those icons of Capitalist success, the giant megamotorcorporations.

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Yeah, Detroit in decay :(

Industry declining for years for various reasons like unions, tax and business laws, and cheaper labor pools elsewhere. And then there's that whole EFM thing, grrr. And yeah, some really bad school action going on. Lots of people moving away. Oh, and police stuff isn't the best and Devils night...

But I wouldn't call Detroit a failed experiment in socialism. There is still some hope for Detroit.

Over the last couple years they finished the refurbishing of the harbor area.

They implemented a home-buying program for police to help encourage them to move back into the city.

Devil's night 2011 was remarkably low on the fires, mostly due to well publicized announcements of heavy police and neighborhood watch patrols.

A recent exciting announcement- MSU is proposing to start reclaiming a bunch of that urban decay and reuse it for urban gardening and research center. Their hope is to eventually grow into a 100 acre campus. Freepress article. Perhaps what was once known as motor city could end up becoming garden city.

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I think we had a thread about this a few months. Sounds like this is another one of those socialism = communism outlooks that some Americans seem to have.

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Industry failed? Did people stop buying cars?

I didn't say the US motor industry failed, I said "it's industry failed" - referring to the industry of Detroit (the city).

And I disagree that there's a racist component to this argument.

The site linked to in the OP, which is what I commented on, definitely has a racist element to it. The author of that article blames blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc for the situation in Detroit. Last I heard, blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc were as American as "white folk", provided all are either born in that nation, or naturalised to it.

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The site linked to in the OP, which is what I commented on, definitely has a racist element to it. The author of that article blames blacks, Mexicans, Muslims, etc for the situation in Detroit. Last I heard, blacks, Hispanics, Muslims, etc were as American as "white folk", provided all are either born in that nation, or naturalised to it.

He's not blaming the problems on them, he's just stating the fact that white people have left the city. It's the black separatist dream of the Louis Farrakhans fully realized. Behold, modern Detroit :hmm:

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Detroit 'failed' because it's industry failed, not because of some "great socialist experiment".

It is you who are ignorant on this issue. You're obviously a smart guy judging by your posts, but you are wrong on this one. Detroit 'failed' because Unions and Democrats have had a stranglehold on the city for 50 years and have forced out nearly all of the productive people and businesses. I may be wrong, but I'd wager that you've never stepped foot in downtown Detroit. Reading about it and being there are two different things, Leo.

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It is you who are ignorant on this issue. You're obviously a smart guy judging by your posts, but you are wrong on this one. Detroit 'failed' because Unions and Democrats have had a stranglehold on the city for 50 years and have forced out nearly all of the productive people and businesses. I may be wrong, but I'd wager that you've never stepped foot in downtown Detroit. Reading about it and being there are two different things, Leo.

I didn't specify how or why the industry failed, I just said it failed - and it did - and that was the reason for Detroit's decline.

However, you would win your wager. But that is quite irrelevant.

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However, you would win your wager. But that is quite irrelevant.

The 1967 Riots and the "white flight" that followed are to blame for Detroit's decline, as well as Coleman Young, Detroit's racist mayor. Couple these with the Union's mafia tactics and there goes the Metropolis of Motown. but I'm sure you knew this because you have the internet. :rolleyes:

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I suspect that LA may be headed for something similar in appearance but for different reasons. In fact the whole State of California may soon be bankrupt and going through crisis made by it's attempt to care for millions of immigrants who are not paying their way. As well as unions raping the coffers.

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I suspect that LA may be headed for something similar in appearance but for different reasons. In fact the whole State of California may soon be bankrupt and going through crisis made by it's attempt to care for millions of immigrants who are not paying their way. As well as unions raping the coffers.

Agreed..

I can't find the statistic at the moment, but something like 65% of the employed population of Detroit is employed by the government, and their bloated salaries and benefits are killing the city further.

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I came across this article about Detroit, by Frosty Wooldridge. I wonder how prophetic this is?

Thoughts and comments appreciated.

I don't think it is Prophetic, because you don't have that situation in many places, where the industry fails so completely that the city fails.

I don't know about prophetic, but the article appears to me to be distastefully fundamentalist, ignorant and white-supremacist. If the author truly is a journalist, then he has abandoned his journalistic objectivity for a hate-based ideology.

Detroit 'failed' because it's industry failed, not because of some "great socialist experiment".

I agree with Leonardo that the city failed due to its manufacturing industry failing. Once that happened, people got desperate, some turned to crime, some then left, others who moved in, but no one ever dealt with any of the overall issues, it was one small band-aid after another. So now the entire city is beat up and cut up and run down, and the band aids just don't seem to be working anymore.

I do also agree that the article was written with bias, but the underlying facts are mostly true.

Detroit = Auto Manufacturing = Unions = people repeatedly wanting more and more, having the backing via unions to actually get it, and then they get to watch the company they work for die because it is stuck between a failing economy and rising union demands. I work at just such a manufacturer and every day they cut more and more trying to keep afloat while the union guys are off in the corner complaining that they are in a locked contract for four more years so they can't strike or demand raises.

We just got our yearly raises here at Intel, and you cannot believe the belly aching that goes on. When you're making 50k per year, why should you complain? That is like $24 an hour. The difference between a 3% raise and a 6% raise is like $40 a paycheck. When I did the same work and was making 28k, that was something to complain about.

I think even today the various Unions are determined to not make concessions, but would rather see their industry go out of buisness. They would rather have everyone fired, and the factory moved overseas, the agree to no raise, or a pay reduction. I can see why, but I can also see why they should need to agree to decreases sometimes.

It seems to me a classic case of killing the Goose that Lays the Golden Eggs.

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yet again, anything wrong with America is put down to that great bogey, "Socialism". What was Detroit built on? The Car industry. Was that founded and run by the State? I don't think so. if anyone failed, it was those icons of Capitalist success, the giant megamotorcorporations.

Because socialism is the great boogey. Look at what socialism has done to EU, 42 nations on their knees and the hignest taxes paid by working class to allow the welfare society to destroy, steal or burned what others have worked for. Don't believe me, read Ayn Rand's We the Living. It's was true when she wrote it, it will be true tomorrow if it happen again. Now I know that book is a novel but it's based on the Author life. You may object that a novel is a novel is a novel, both my maternal and paternal grandfathers lived it.

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Posted (edited)

Because socialism is the great boogey. Look at what socialism has done to EU, 42 nations on their knees and the hignest taxes paid by working class to allow the welfare society to destroy, steal or burned what others have worked for. Don't believe me, read Ayn Rand's We the Living. It's was true when she wrote it, it will be true tomorrow if it happen again. Now I know that book is a novel but it's based on the Author life. You may object that a novel is a novel is a novel, both my maternal and paternal grandfathers lived it.

Really? And this is because of the Welfare Society, is it? nothing to do with the EU Central Bank putting the squeeze on countries like Greece and Portugal to pressure them to accept yet another "loan" (at very generous rates), in order to keep the Euro afloat? But it's nothing to do with the Banks, no, it's all because of Welfare Scroungers. :rolleyes:

Anyway, you assume that all these 42 nations are all uniformly Socialist? There's no degrees of shading, they are all hardline Socialist, are they? Ok, which countries which follow pure and unfettered free market Capitalism, and are not fettered by a Welfare Society, would you point to as evidence of the success of that system?

* Anyway, where do these 42 countries come from? There's only 27 currently in the EU.

Edited by 747400

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Really? And this is because of the Welfare Society, is it? nothing to do with the EU Central Bank putting the squeeze on countries like Greece and Portugal to pressure them to accept yet another "loan" (at very generous rates), in order to keep the Euro afloat? But it's nothing to do with the Banks, no, it's all because of Welfare Scroungers. :rolleyes:

Anyway, you assume that all these 42 nations are all uniformly Socialist? There's no degrees of shading, they are all hardline Socialist, are they? Ok, which countries which follow pure and unfettered free market Capitalism, and are not fettered by a Welfare Society, would you point to as evidence of the success of that system?

* Anyway, where do these 42 countries come from? There's only 27 currently in the EU.

Oups my bad when it comes to the numbers but may I remind you that those 27 have to do whatever those non elected nitwitts of Bruxelles tell them to do. And give free money to all non working people

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Posted (edited)

yet again, anything wrong with America is put down to that great bogey, "Socialism". What was Detroit built on? The Car industry. Was that founded and run by the State? I don't think so. if anyone failed, it was those icons of Capitalist success, the giant megamotorcorporations.

That were brought to their knees by unions and unions are by definition socialist organizations.

Couple that with the extremely disproportionate amount of Detroit citizenry being employed by the Government making "BIG GOVERNMENT" an understatement there. And big government being a foundation in socialist/communist/marxist philosophy it is obvious to conclude Detroit was in fact laid waste to at least in large part by Socialism.

Edited by Socio

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