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jugoso

John of God' cures thousands in Brazil

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"John of God" says he communicates with spirits when he goes into a trance. He diagnoses diseases, prescribes medication and conducts surgeries, either with his hands, or with kitchen knives, scalpels or scissors.

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Sounds like Edgar Cayce, but maybe with a bit less humility.

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Sounds like Edgar Cayce, but maybe with a bit less humility.

I don´t really see the connection as Cayce was primarily a "seer" and gave readings whereas this guy is a "healer".

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Probably along the lines of the psychic surgery in the Philippines which is pretty much a way of scamming the believers

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I don´t really see the connection as Cayce was primarily a "seer" and gave readings whereas this guy is a "healer".

Not at all! Casey used his seeing to diagnose patients, when doctors had no answers. He might not have done the actual procedure, but told those who did what to do. Or told the patient what to do for themselves to heal.

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Not at all! Casey used his seeing to diagnose patients, when doctors had no answers. He might not have done the actual procedure, but told those who did what to do. Or told the patient what to do for themselves to heal.

Understood. However, I still see a very, very loose connection at best. :)

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I might sound like a crackpot but faith healing seems to work in less educated and enlightened areas of the world. I am not saying that it will regrow severed limbs or cure diabetes. But in many psychosomatic cases, faith healing works because of the simpleton belief of the poor and uneducated people. Faith has a weird power over human body.

But personally, I'd rather stick with modern medicine than losing my sapience to heal my afflictions.

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The psychic surgery con was debunked years ago, yet people are still lining up to be scammed.

Too bad Joao de Deus can't cure stupid, but then he'd be out of a job.

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He claims to have healed thousands, an entire towns' economy revolves around his "healing centre", he heals "for free" but collects donations and sells natural remedies and purified water et al.

If ever there was an opportunity to thoroughly test someone's capacity this should be it. There should be a undeniable swathe of inexplicably healed cases on record - where are they? Why are all these faith healers claims so, well, "anecdotal"?

He has been at it for 30 years and this is the first I have heard of him ... he should be more famous than Oprah if his claims are genuine and yet ....

Well, those are my reasons for passing this one by anyway.

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Posted (edited)

Why would god, if god exists, need to manifest it's power through an intermediary to heal?

I see activities such as this as not only a possible means for self-enrichment of the person claiming to be a healer, but also as a means for religions to increase their 'flock' by duping people into a false faith.

Edited by Leonardo

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He claims to have healed thousands, an entire towns' economy revolves around his "healing centre", he heals "for free" but collects donations and sells natural remedies and purified water et al.

If ever there was an opportunity to thoroughly test someone's capacity this should be it. There should be a undeniable swathe of inexplicably healed cases on record - where are they? Why are all these faith healers claims so, well, "anecdotal"?

He has been at it for 30 years and this is the first I have heard of him ... he should be more famous than Oprah if his claims are genuine and yet ....

Well, those are my reasons for passing this one by anyway.

I very much agree with you. I strongly hope western scientists and medical personnel test this fraud and reveal him for what he is. This "healing" gift has been claimed through-out recent history and the minute scientists request to validate and evaluate these "healers" they deny them and disappear. Why would this be? You would think, if you're truly a healer, and your purpose in life is to help humanity as they claim, that you would be more than happy to oblige science and help the world receive an understanding of this so we might further help all of man kind...

This simply isn't the case with these frauds....

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I might sound like a crackpot but faith healing seems to work in less educated and enlightened areas of the world. I am not saying that it will regrow severed limbs or cure diabetes. But in many psychosomatic cases, faith healing works because of the simpleton belief of the poor and uneducated people. Faith has a weird power over human body.

But personally, I'd rather stick with modern medicine than losing my sapience to heal my afflictions.

I do not think it's got anything to do with the "less educated" as you put it. When people are sick and dying, they become desperate and will try just about anything to become better again. Nothing to do with being a simpleton or being poor, it's called DESPERATION, remember that word when YOU end up in same place as they are.

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Why would god, if god exists, need to manifest it's power through an intermediary to heal?

I see activities such as this as not only a possible means for self-enrichment of the person claiming to be a healer, but also as a means for religions to increase their 'flock' by duping people into a false faith.

OK understand you do not believe in God and that is fine with me, luckily not my soul correct, but now I’m a bit curious and I would just like to know from all the non believers, if you have believed and you die and there is a God or no God, then you’ve got nothing to lose right, but you did not believe and you die and there IS A GOD in heaven, please explain, what are you going to say to Him? “O I’m sorry I did not think you existed?” Just a question.

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OK understand you do not believe in God and that is fine with me, luckily not my soul correct, but now I'm a bit curious and I would just like to know from all the non believers, if you have believed and you die and there is a God or no God, then you've got nothing to lose right, but you did not believe and you die and there IS A GOD in heaven, please explain, what are you going to say to Him? "O I'm sorry I did not think you existed?" Just a question.

Hi Chiole,

I am actually a believer but I think I can add some food for thought to your suggestion to Leonardo.

The fact is - people should not choose to believe in God just in case he happens to be there when they die to judge them. Religions sell this idea to people every day and I think it is wrong to appeal to people's fear. The people who may be converted to "believe" in God are really only doing what they believe they can to stop being afraid of death - that is not the same as TRULY believing in God.

Now, if you do not believe in God and you die and discover there is a God - well, let's give him/her a little bit of credit - a God, by definition knows far more about what goes on in our hearts and minds than we do and I for one would trust him to recognise a sincere person who believed only what his conscience and evidence allowed him to believe - I don't think it is relevant to think a non-believer would be punished for not knowing any better - this is not a popular position amongst believers but I personally stand firmly by it.

In summary - a person who believes in God because they are afraid of punishment from God if they fail to believe is someone who believes in self preservation at all costs only - it is not a belief in God at all, it is fear hiding as belief.

As I said, those are just my opinions and offered as food for thought.

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OK understand you do not believe in God and that is fine with me, luckily not my soul correct, but now I’m a bit curious and I would just like to know from all the non believers, if you have believed and you die and there is a God or no God, then you’ve got nothing to lose right, but you did not believe and you die and there IS A GOD in heaven, please explain, what are you going to say to Him? “O I’m sorry I did not think you existed?” Just a question.

Honestly, I don't know if a god exists. I don't know how anyone can know whether a god exists because 'god' doesn't seem to be defined well enough for us to be able to know that.

However, I am fairly sure that the various scriptures relating that a god exists, and suggesting what that god is, are basically political manifestos wrapped around a bit of real theology and philosophy.

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Posted (edited)

Hi Chiole,

I am actually a believer but I think I can add some food for thought to your suggestion to Leonardo.

The fact is - people should not choose to believe in God just in case he happens to be there when they die to judge them. Religions sell this idea to people every day and I think it is wrong to appeal to people's fear. The people who may be converted to "believe" in God are really only doing what they believe they can to stop being afraid of death - that is not the same as TRULY believing in God.

Now, if you do not believe in God and you die and discover there is a God - well, let's give him/her a little bit of credit - a God, by definition knows far more about what goes on in our hearts and minds than we do and I for one would trust him to recognise a sincere person who believed only what his conscience and evidence allowed him to believe - I don't think it is relevant to think a non-believer would be punished for not knowing any better - this is not a popular position amongst believers but I personally stand firmly by it.

In summary - a person who believes in God because they are afraid of punishment from God if they fail to believe is someone who believes in self preservation at all costs only - it is not a belief in God at all, it is fear hiding as belief.

As I said, those are just my opinions and offered as food for thought.

Hi

Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe. I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years). Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was. All humans have been born with this imprint. I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father. I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

Edited by chiole
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Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was. All humans have been born with this imprint. I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.
Wrong like working on the sabbath?

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Posted (edited)

Hi

Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe. I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years).

Knowledge of Good and Evil is not the same as knowledge that there is a God. Atheists act with conscience and are just as instinctually empathic to the needs of others and what is correct behaviour. This does not truly inform a non-believer of the existence of God, it only informs us that humanity has the capacity to comprehend Good and Evil. A non believer will not agree that this knowledge came from eating of that fruit. BTW that was original sin, so it is a bane not a gift and an opportunity to create distance for God, not unity by it's very nature.

Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was. All humans have been born with this imprint. I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

That is a little simplistic. Sure we all know basic right and wrong, HOWEVER, there are nuances and subtle errors we all make without comprehension that we are causing harm, it is not so black and white. For instance, as adults we are masters of the spoken word. Words have power and can cause harm. When we are angry or judgemental, we use our words as weapons. We believe we are right to do so, that the recipient deserves to hear what we think. We do not consider the emotional harm our words can cause others because we believe we are right - in this way alot of harm can be done without any action but the spoken word alone.

If people all KNOW right and wrong, then why do people say things that hurt others? Bullying, prejudices, ignorances, political and religious differences where the opposing party is evil and we are in the right, all these are examples of where our knowledge of right and wrong fails us utterly, because we fail to see ourselves in the other person. BUT nobody will gainsay us in our own communities, we may even be patted on the back in many instances and told we are right - we may be held up as heroes. Yet the fact remains that our words caused a disunity and emotional harm to another, so you see, not at all simple. Even the worst dictators had huge fan bases who thought their leader was the holiest and best.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father. I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

You have to believe first to comprehend such a fear, if you do not believe in God you will not have that fear. However, what you were suggesting is that a non-believer should consider believing just in case they face a judgement in the afterlife - if they are only believing to avoid punishment they are simply fearful people, not people who know there is a God, rather people who are afraid of the possibility of a God - there is no wisdom or comprehension of the nature of ourselves and our relationship to God in that position IMO.

Edited by libstaK

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I very much agree with you. I strongly hope western scientists and medical personnel test this fraud and reveal him for what he is. This "healing" gift has been claimed through-out recent history and the minute scientists request to validate and evaluate these "healers" they deny them and disappear. Why would this be? You would think, if you're truly a healer, and your purpose in life is to help humanity as they claim, that you would be more than happy to oblige science and help the world receive an understanding of this so we might further help all of man kind...

This simply isn't the case with these frauds....

Yes CP exactly, they hide behind the "mystery" of faith as their reasons, I don't buy it.

The healer himself may hide but those that are providing testamonies that they are being healed number in the thousands and their illnesses are medically diagnosed and supposedly cured - where are their medical reports and all the doctors who must surely be flabbergasted at these miraculous events occurring in their "thousands"? This should already be an enormous scientific mystery just from that fallout on that level - but it's not, and that is very telling.:unsure2:

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I believe God can use anyone right where they are in life.

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Hi

Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe. I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years). Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was. All humans have been born with this imprint. I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father. I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

Hi

Yes I do agree with you that by definition a God knows far more and I do believe that God does know everything. I do however believe that you are incorrect in stating that he will recognise the person who's conscience and evidence allowed him to believe. I believe that every single person on this earth was born with the already imprinted map to what is right and what is wrong, we've known this since birth (that is why the tree that Adam and Eve ate from was called the Tree Of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL, if they did not eat from it, we would not have had this knowledge, the knowledge of good and evil has already been with us for millions of years). Remember when you were small and you did something wrong, you knew that it was wrong even before you were told that it was. All humans have been born with this imprint. I firmly believe that the person who says that he did not know that he was wrong is lying and that to me is self preservation of which I also believe all humans where born with.

To your second answer - I do believe that you should fear God's punishment. You feared (and by that I mean, you feared getting a hiding because you did something wrong) but you also loved your own father. I believe it is the same with our Heavenly Father and no, it is not selling that to the non-believer, I do believe that to be fact and to that I stand firm in my belief that God should be feared, that is why He is God.

But then again, it might be only me that believe this, and that is my opinion.

Welcome chiole...there are a few of us here who know that "fear of God" is synonymous with respecting His deity and holiness. Others are slow coming to those conclusions but are honest in their beliefs :yes: Stay awhile and you'll see REAL fireworks over religious views :tu:

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Wrong like working on the sabbath?

Why? Because it displays a complete lack of faith and respect towards God and His promises of abundant blessings.

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Has anyone read the God delusion?

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Has anyone read the God delusion?

I'll never read a book from this celebrated atheist whose is seeing nothing but green and laughing maniacally to the bank.

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Posted (edited)

Well I find it interesting.

Are you one of those people who refuse to look outside the box?

Edited by Toadie

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