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markdohle

Evolution and NDE's

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In a material universe, where evolution is an unconscious process, how could something like the NDE evolve? This experience does not in anyway insure the surival of our species, also how could the life review come about, wherein not only ones life, but the effects (experience in the first person) that one had on others, for good or ill are lived out? Here is a page that dicusses this aspect of the NDE?

Here is a page of questions and answers about the near death experience:

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In a material universe, where evolution is an unconscious process, how could something like the NDE evolve? This experience does not in anyway insure the surival of our species, also how could the life review come about, wherein not only ones life, but the effects (experience in the first person) that one had on others, for good or ill are lived out? Here is a page that dicusses this aspect of the NDE?

Here is a page of questions and answers about the near death experience:

Here is the key. You are not understanding how evolution works. Evolution is based on random mutations and those that offer advantages in reproduction are passed on. Evolution does not have a goal or a path. Your first flaw is you assume there is not evolutionary advantage, when their could be. But whether there is or is not, is not important. If it is not a trait that leads to less reproduction or that leads to death, there is no reason for it to disapear. Many speices life with traits that seem unproductive, pointless, and even harmful but they go on reproducing and existing anyways. Hope this helps.

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Not really sure what you're saying here, not everyone experiences NDE. When someone is dying, its only expected their brain will follow if it hasn't already.

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In a material universe, where evolution is an unconscious process, how could something like the NDE evolve? This experience does not in anyway insure the surival of our species, also how could the life review come about, wherein not only ones life, but the effects (experience in the first person) that one had on others, for good or ill are lived out? Here is a page that dicusses this aspect of the NDE?

Here is a page of questions and answers about the near death experience:

Since most reported cases of NDE involve a general anesthesia, I believe it is just abnormal functioning of the brain. The brain tries to extrapolate on the information it is receiving to provide a proper response. In the case of near dying or being under anesthesia the signals are abnormal. The brain doesn't know what to do with the information it is receiving and you get a flash of stored information. It has nothing to do with evolution or a survival mechanism.

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Since most reported cases of NDE involve a general anesthesia, I believe it is just abnormal functioning of the brain. The brain tries to extrapolate on the information it is receiving to provide a proper response. In the case of near dying or being under anesthesia the signals are abnormal. The brain doesn't know what to do with the information it is receiving and you get a flash of stored information. It has nothing to do with evolution or a survival mechanism.

Except NDEs and OBEs have been reported thought history long before anestisia. Any corolation between NDE incidence and modern medical practice is obviously because of the ability for doctors to bring people back that are closer and closer to death. Anestisia and brain function is well studied. If there were any indication, scientifically, that someone under anestisia could become concouse ... They would know about it.

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In a material universe, where evolution is an unconscious process, how could something like the NDE evolve? This experience does not in anyway insure the surival of our species, also how could the life review come about, wherein not only ones life, but the effects (experience in the first person) that one had on others, for good or ill are lived out? Here is a page that dicusses this aspect of the NDE?

Here is a page of questions and answers about the near death experience:

I'm glad you posted this topic...

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Here is the key. You are not understanding how evolution works. Evolution is based on random mutations and those that offer advantages in reproduction are passed on. Evolution does not have a goal or a path. Your first flaw is you assume there is not evolutionary advantage, when their could be. But whether there is or is not, is not important. If it is not a trait that leads to less reproduction or that leads to death, there is no reason for it to disapear. Many speices life with traits that seem unproductive, pointless, and even harmful but they go on reproducing and existing anyways. Hope this helps.

Well it's an awefully incredible coincidence that NDEs are what they are isn't it? To dismiss The parallels in experiences just because of a particular bias world view is a little irresponsible. If it quacks and walks like a duck then it's a duck if you have eliminated geese and flamingos. You don't say it's not a duck because you dont beleive in ducks, and it's just an accident that it looks and quaks like one.

Furthermore, it can definantly be an evolved trait for survival. Whos says our souls are not evolved entities aswell capable of surviving the collapse of its shell in this dimention.

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Posted (edited)

Well it's an awefully incredible coincidence that NDEs are what they are isn't it? To dismiss The parallels in experiences just because of a particular bias world view is a little irresponsible. If it quacks and walks like a duck then it's a duck if you have eliminated geese and flamingos. You don't say it's not a duck because you dont beleive in ducks, and it's just an accident that it looks and quaks like one.

Furthermore, it can definantly be an evolved trait for survival. Whos says our souls are not evolved entities aswell capable of surviving the collapse of its shell in this dimention.

I do not even understand the first part of your post. What did I say that you are responding to? Your duck analogy is dumb...here is one for you. If it looks like a fish, swims like a fish, and lives in water like a fish, it's a fish...unless it's a whale...then it's not a fish. Of course you could make that work by add your little disclaimer "if you have eliminated blank and blank."

It could be an evolved trait and it could be for survival. I am not saying it could not be. The point is it might NOT be. Not every trait on every animal has a purpose or a benifit.

Edited by HuttonEtAl

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Furthermore, it can definantly be an evolved trait for survival.

**Couldn't.

In a pre-modern medicine world, things that put you "near death"--pretty much meant you were going to die. If this happens before you reproduce then the trait cannot be passed on. If this happens after you reproduce the trait had nothing to do with your reproductive success all those years ago. Again then, there is no selective pressure for such a thing. Bottom line: evolution doesn't care how comfortable you are when you die, it simply is not necessary for gene success.

Now you could certainly say that indirectly, the neural architecture which is responsible for NDEs was a result of evolution--In deed it was. But that "side-effect" is not what was selected by selection, only a circumstance of the way various neural modalities based upon neuroactive and vasoactive molecules work in brain.

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Posted (edited)

It could be an evolved trait and it could be for survival. I am not saying it could not be. The point is it might NOT be. Not every trait on every animal has a purpose or a benifit.

It could not be. Natural selection cannot select for something that only acts "in death" (or "near"-so in this case). Because death before reproduction means you are evolutionarily unsuccessful. While something that happened after reproduction has no impact on your reproductive success (its already happened). Selection doesn't care about individuals.

That is something the "NDEs are a product of evolution!"-crowd apparently haven't thought through very critically before (or they've failed to understand how evolution works) ;)

Think about it though, if selection could favor "easing our passing"--Think of all the crazy "contraptions" selection would invent for us. We'd have grapefuit sized organs in our heads full of opioids that pop when we die! But neigh, that damn selection is so uncaring!

It even extends to pain, which serves an evolutionary purpose and has been selected. But a good question to ask would be why aren't able to cope with ginormous (technical term :lol: ) amounts of pain? Again think about it from "selection's standpoint". Coping with pain is good if it gets you to reproduce (hence all that 5HT nociception regulated down-regulation acting in anterolateral system in the spinal cord), but there is a point where pain would obviously signal a state that is incompatible with life. Selection would be unconcerned then, with reordering "wellness" in such states as imminent exit from the gene pool means you're no longer a concern :(

Edited by Copasetic

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It could not be. Natural selection cannot select for something that only acts "in death" (or "near"-so in this case). Because death before reproduction means you are evolutionarily unsuccessful. While something that happened after reproduction has no impact on your reproductive success (its already happened). Selection doesn't care about individuals.

That is something the "NDEs are a product of evolution!"-crowd apparently haven't thought through very critically before (or they've failed to understand how evolution works) ;)

Think about it though, if selection could favor "easing our passing"--Think of all the crazy "contraptions" selection would invent for us. We'd have grapefuit sized organs in our heads full of opioids that pop when we die! But neigh, that damn selection is so uncaring!

It even extends to pain, which serves an evolutionary purpose and has been selected. But a good question to ask would be why aren't able to cope with ginormous (technical term :lol: ) amounts of pain? Again think about it from "selection's standpoint". Coping with pain is good if it gets you to reproduce (hence all that 5HT nociception regulated down-regulation acting in anterolateral system in the spinal cord), but there is a point where pain would obviously signal a state that is incompatible with life. Selection would be unconcerned then, with reordering "wellness" in such states as imminent exit from the gene pool means you're no longer a concern :(

I guess you were looking at it on a much deeper level. I was looking at it simply as "just another function." The point I was making earlier is that something that is evolved does not need a purpose to have evolved. This could be a side effect from something else that evolved.

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Except NDEs and OBEs have been reported thought history long before anestisia. Any corolation between NDE incidence and modern medical practice is obviously because of the ability for doctors to bring people back that are closer and closer to death. Anestisia and brain function is well studied. If there were any indication, scientifically, that someone under anestisia could become concouse ... They would know about it.

Why would NDEs happening before modern medicine have any impact on what I said? I just think that the fact that they happen so often when people are not dying, but are under anesthesia is a big clue as to why they happen. Nothing you said discounts at all the point I was making. Also, you should read about anesthesia if you are really interested in this phenomenon. You would be surprised by all the information that can be found.

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In a material universe, where evolution is an unconscious process, how could something like the NDE evolve? This experience does not in anyway insure the surival of our species, also how could the life review come about, wherein not only ones life, but the effects (experience in the first person) that one had on others, for good or ill are lived out? Here is a page that dicusses this aspect of the NDE?

Here is a page of questions and answers about the near death experience:

I believe the NDE shows that there is an underlying intellienge at work in the unfolding of evolution. The "program" if that word has to be used, seems to be put there to help us die; in my opinion and not a process of blind groping, but placed.. In the past, I don't believe mankind came to believe in a trancedent realm because they were ignorant and fearful, no, I think it is the natural unfolding of experiences that point to something greater. Those various experiences that are being studied today in such depth. The simplistic answers that are given in how these NDE's come about have been dealt with. If they answered the 'why' of the NDE then the study of this experience would have been dropped long long ago. That is why the studies continue and in the end I believe will one day validate the reality of the very great possiblity of an afterlife.

peace

mark

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Because death before reproduction means you are evolutionarily unsuccessful.

Do you mean in the case of something that can't by any mean reproduce?

Because if I take this to the very first degree, it dosen't make sense.

Could you explain to me what you mean?

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**Couldn't.

In a pre-modern medicine world, things that put you "near death"--pretty much meant you were going to die. If this happens before you reproduce then the trait cannot be passed on. If this happens after you reproduce the trait had nothing to do with your reproductive success all those years ago. Again then, there is no selective pressure for such a thing. Bottom line: evolution doesn't care how comfortable you are when you die, it simply is not necessary for gene success.

Now you could certainly say that indirectly, the neural architecture which is responsible for NDEs was a result of evolution--In deed it was. But that "side-effect" is not what was selected by selection, only a circumstance of the way various neural modalities based upon neuroactive and vasoactive molecules work in brain.

That's not actually what I was talking about, I was suggesting that if a soul exists, it could be a product of evolution that a soul survives the death of a body instead of dying with it. That certainly is a survival action assuming that human beings are more than they apear to be. For an acciident of nature to make it look like our concousness survives death seems pretty unlikely. I know unlikely things happen, but its only with a severe bias does Somone keep assuming accidents with ever increasing highly unlikely sets of circumstances.

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Why would NDEs happening before modern medicine have any impact on what I said? I just think that the fact that they happen so often when people are not dying, but are under anesthesia is a big clue as to why they happen. Nothing you said discounts at all the point I was making. Also, you should read about anesthesia if you are really interested in this phenomenon. You would be surprised by all the information that can be found.

I don't need to. I know intimatly the condition can be created without being Near death. I do it almost weekly ( no.... No drugs) :). It seemed like you were saying the experience was the result of anestisia... When obviously throughout history, there has not been anestisia.

No Somone does not need to be near death. This doesnt say a thing about the experience itself. Certain elements seem to be more prevalent in NDES that arnt usually in OBES. The life review, the tunnel etc etc.

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Posted (edited)

I believe the NDE shows that there is an underlying intellienge at work in the unfolding of evolution. The "program" if that word has to be used, seems to be put there to help us die; in my opinion and not a process of blind groping, but placed.. In the past, I don't believe mankind came to believe in a trancedent realm because they were ignorant and fearful, no, I think it is the natural unfolding of experiences that point to something greater. Those various experiences that are being studied today in such depth. The simplistic answers that are given in how these NDE's come about have been dealt with. If they answered the 'why' of the NDE then the study of this experience would have been dropped long long ago. That is why the studies continue and in the end I believe will one day validate the reality of the very great possiblity of an afterlife.

peace

mark

Yes I agree totally. What I find funny is that even if this phenomonon is simply a product of a materialist universe, then if it happens to us all the last thoughts of all materialists and atheists before they wink out of existence will be holy **** I was wrong!!!

Edited by Seeker79

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Yes I agree totally. What I find funny is that even if this phenomonon is simply a product of a materialist universe, then if it happens to us all the last thoughts of all materialists and atheists before they wink out of existence will be holy **** I was wrong!!!

LOL, this made me smile for some reason.

peace

Mark

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Do you mean in the case of something that can't by any mean reproduce?

Because if I take this to the very first degree, it dosen't make sense.

Could you explain to me what you mean?

Not sure if I can explain it anymore simply :lol: . If you die, before you reproduce, then your genes don't get passed on to the next generation. We are (cells, bodies, organisms etc) vehicles for genes. Evolution is about gene (and gene flavor, we call an allele) survival in a population. Alleles which show up in the population (by being reproduced) are more successful than those that don't or ones that eventually die out.

The only way that evolution "happens", so to say, is by successful genes being passed on to the next generation. Because survival and reproduction in a population is not equiprobable amongst individuals of a population then selection "picks" alleles that help an organism survive and reproduce (through that differential survival). So a trait which act after selection don't get a chance to be selected for or against. Ever wonder why we die of cancer? Because most cancers affect individuals long after their reproductive age--Evolution has no obligation to continually select against molecular proof-reading machinery that starts a downward trend in our later years.

Like wise, a trait which didn't help you survive to reproductive age would similarly be "unselectable" by selection (*Caveat, if it actually imparted a negative attribute to survival and reproduction it could be selected against).

NDEs, occur at what would have been (in a pre-modern medicine world) the end of life. Ergo, if they happened before you reproduced then they didn't help you to stay alive and reproduce, thus the alleles that favor them would be lost form the gene pool. If they occurred after you reproduced then selection again, would be uncaring (just like cancer above)--Because your success or lack of (evolutionarily speaking) has already been determined.

So like Hutton pointed out, not all aspect of an organism have to be the solution to an evolutionary problem. They could simply be byproducts of other solutions evolution favored. Hands, melanocytes, glycolysis, the sympathetic nervous system, etc for example, you can easily see are, in and of themselves "evolutionary solutions". NDEs (for the reasons listed above) wouldn't be an evolutionary solution to a problem--That is not something evolution selected for.

When looking at the biochemical and physiological nature of the human brain and the systems that operate within it (such as 5HT, dopaminergic systems, etc) it makes more sense that NDEs are a product of (rather a pathophysiological product) of those systems.

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That's not actually what I was talking about, I was suggesting that if a soul exists, it could be a product of evolution that a soul survives the death of a body instead of dying with it. That certainly is a survival action assuming that human beings are more than they apear to be. For an acciident of nature to make it look like our concousness survives death seems pretty unlikely. I know unlikely things happen, but its only with a severe bias does Somone keep assuming accidents with ever increasing highly unlikely sets of circumstances.

What is a soul? Further: what are soul alleles? How do they impart a fitness advantage?

Why do you think that "nature makes it look like" consciousness survives death? Do you know anyone that has been dead and came to tell the tale about it? I don't. I know people who have reported on near death experiences but these people were not in fact, dead. They were "near" death and ultimately still living--As they survived to tell the tale about it. No one has told the tale of being "really dead", so its not really safe to assume that nature makes death look like anything.

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Posted (edited)

What is a soul? Further: what are soul alleles? How do they impart a fitness advantage?

Why do you think that "nature makes it look like" consciousness survives death? Do you know anyone that has been dead and came to tell the tale about it? I don't. I know people who have reported on near death experiences but these people were not in fact, dead. They were "near" death and ultimately still living--As they survived to tell the tale about it. No one has told the tale of being "really dead", so its not really safe to assume that nature makes death look like anything.

One aspect of a soul that must exist if there is such a thing is information. If a soul is considered to have an identity certain bits of information must be maintained. The medium well I don't have the slightest... But it would probably be something that does not interact well with this universe... Who knows...dark matter perhaps.

Sure no one can tell us what death is really like, but obviously If these experience happen to people that are near death but come back, it's almost certain that they happen to people that are dying and don't come back. As I mentioned before, what a comfort for believers and what a shock to skeptics in those last moments... Assuming those are last moments.

You know better than anyone hear about brain activity in severe hyperthermic accidents. NDES seem to occure without brain activity with standard definitions of death. You also know that that definition is continually being pushed back. I know I know, those experiences can happen before or after the absence of brain activity, but let's face it. If it were not happening in the brain a materialist perspective would not ever be able to consider it. In a adition, if it does happen independent of the brain then when the brain is back, there would have to be some sort of downloading of information for the experience to exist in memory. This would be a biological componant. The two can never be separated. If there is to be memory of the event there must be a mixing of spirit and biological processes.

if the spirit is a life it most likely is an evolved life... Just like any life we know of. An emergent property of the interactions other dimentions or universes perhaps... Who knows. It's just speculation. But certainly if our biological bodies are in a symbiotic realatiibship with a spirit body, then that spirit body separating from a dieing physical body would be a survival trait. I certainly don't want to hang around with my failed body.. I would prefer to move on and have the information of my identity imprinted upon a media of another type of universe.

From a materialist perspective, this deep desire, even if i did not believe in an after life could definantly prompt my last fireing nurons to try and continue my existence. Either way, it's likely not an accident. This seems to be the standard response of anything that is statistically highly unlikely. Not everything we don't understand is a random accident. You know more than anyone that the truth is usually counter intuitive.

But of course with the materialist perspective everything is an accident, and in the spiritual nothing is. The two may never be reconcilable.

Edited by Seeker79

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Posted (edited)

One aspect of a soul that must exist if there is such a thing is information. If a soul is considered to have an identity certain bits of information must be maintained. The medium well I don't have the slightest... But it would probably be something that does not interact well with this universe... Who knows...dark matter perhaps.

"Information", what an ambiguous word. I am starting to like it less and less when used without a definition or by the "lay-community" :lol:

What do you mean by information? Can you show me this soul information?

You know better than anyone hear about brain activity in severe hyperthermic accidents. NDES seem to occure without brain activity with standard definitions of death. You also know that that definition is continually being pushed back. I know I know, those experiences can happen before or after the absence of brain activity, but let's face it. If it were not happening in the brain a materialist perspective would not ever be able to consider it. In a adition, if it does happen independent of the brain then when the brain is back, there would have to be some sort of downloading of information for the experience to exist in memory. This would be a biological componant. The two can never be separated. If there is to be memory of the event there must be a mixing of spirit and biological processes.

You know, this is one of those claims like "the doctors told me I'd never walk again". Really? Because I've met a lot of doctors and I don't think I've yet to meet one that would tell a patient that.

Likewise how do these people know there was "no brain activity"--That is one of those things I think, that gets added to the stories at later dates to make them more credible. People make a lot of assumptions, normally based on unrealistic TV, how medicine works. I assure you, when someone comes into the ER for an emergent condition (such as a car wreck) the first thing on the emergency med doc's minds isn't "oh well, we should hook them up to an EEG". I've watched a couple people in the ER get a time of death called and I've watched a couple people be resuscitated, none of them were hooked up to EEGs (they were on EKGs however, but that measures the electrical depolarizations occurring in the heart not the brain). Of the ones who were resuscitated one was even flat-lined--Or in asystole, or better; "dead". But was "brought back to life". Had they had a NDE they might have added to the claim that they had no "brain activity", but this would simply be untrue. The brain (like all other organs in the body) can continue to have electrical activity while in asystole. The deciding factor is when eventually the brain or other organs goes a sufficient amount of time that the cells expend all their resources on maintaining electrochemical gradients and exhaust their supply of ATP: Only then will the brain or other organ truly have "no activity". I'd challenge you to find one, just one, case where someone was revived beyond this point.

I'd challenge you or any NDE proponent to actually provide any real positive evidence (not someone's story) of someone having;

1) Asystole

2) True absence of neuronal electrical activity

3) an NDE

4) And being resuscitated

Its easy for people to make the claim, but it is (like I pointed out above), I believe often founded upon people's misconceptions about what we do and don't do in medicine. Its like on those TV shows when they "shock" (defibrillate) people who are flat-lined (in asystole). I want to yell at the TV: "You idiots you can't defibrillate someone without a heart beat"--Defibrillation actually stops the heart from beating and you hope the cardiac pacemakers take over and lead to normal sinus rhythms. Shocking someone in asystole does nothing for them, it sure as hell doesn't revive them.

That doesn't stop peoples misconceptions of how medicine works from getting in the way of great stories though. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people tell stories how they "had no heart beat and the doctors had to shock me 3 times to bring me back to life!".

Sorry for the tangent, minor pet-peeve :lol:

Anyway, So you claim that NDEs happen in the absence of brain activity: show the evidence.

if the spirit is a life it most likely is an evolved life... Just like any life we know of. An emergent property of the interactions other dimentions or universes perhaps... Who knows. It's just speculation. But certainly if our biological bodies are in a symbiotic realatiibship with a spirit body, then that spirit body separating from a dieing physical body would be a survival trait. I certainly don't want to hang around with my failed body.. I would prefer to move on and have the information of my identity imprinted upon a media of another type of universe.

From a materialist perspective, this deep desire, even if i did not believe in an after life could definantly prompt my last fireing nurons to try and continue my existence. Either way, it's likely not an accident. This seems to be the standard response of anything that is statistically highly unlikely. Not everything we don't understand is a random accident. You know more than anyone that the truth is usually counter intuitive.

But of course with the materialist perspective everything is an accident, and in the spiritual nothing is. The two may never be reconcilable.

All your doing is not answering any questions and making more for yourself. So still needing to answer the previous questions about "spirit" or "soul", you've now claimed that "spirit" is a "life"--Evidence puh-lease :yes:

Edited by Copasetic

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Posted (edited)

When I was in my teens and in the military, my buddies and I would play a game in the dorms. Needless to say, it involved alcohol and hyperventillation amongst other things. The end result was that you passed out and experienced an event very similiar to what everyone who has a NDE has described. Everything collapses into a tunnel of light and then you are someplace else. The other guys saw dead relatives that they hadn't even thought about for years. Time was distorted too. It felt like you were there for a long time but when you woke up, only seconds had passed. Needless to say, one of my friends went into an epileptic siezure during this game so we decided not to do it anymore. Mind you, this was before I had read anything about NDEs. This experience has left me skeptical of NDE's as anything but a biological oddity.

Btw- don't try this at home. I left out details on purpose, because basically we were almost killing each other for this "game"

Edited by Gromdor

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When I was in my teens and in the military, my buddies and I would play a game in the dorms. Needless to say, it involved alcohol and hyperventillation amongst other things. The end result was that you passed out and experienced an event very similiar to what everyone who has a NDE has described. Everything collapses into a tunnel of light and then you are someplace else. The other guys saw dead relatives that they hadn't even thought about for years. Time was distorted too. It felt like you were there for a long time but when you woke up, only seconds had passed. Needless to say, one of my friends went into an epileptic siezure during this game so we decided not to do it anymore. Mind you, this was before I had read anything about NDEs. This experience has left me skeptical of NDE's as anything but a biological oddity.

Btw- don't try this at home. I left out details on purpose, because basically we were almost killing each other for this "game"

Huffing nitrous oxide can give you the same effect. A seizure too, if you do enough.

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