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Ben Masada

The Double Allegory of Creation

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THE DOUBLE ALLEGORY OF CREATION

There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.

The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided for by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

The second allegory has still the same elements and God is still figured anthropomorphically, but the meaning of the actions and behaviour depicts a more logical version of what happened in the Garden. And here abide those who can think more logically, abbeit not in the archtype level of Reality. In this phase of the account of Creation in Genesis, after God created Adam and Eve, He granted them with free will and expected to be served and sought after by them, but the thing was not working. God would have to search for them and that was not the right method. They would have to become proficient and leave the Garden in order to seek for God in terms of growing in knowledge out in the greater world.

Then, among the many fruit trees in the Garden, God planted a most beautiful of all the trees with fruits much more alluring, and right in the middle of the Garden, so that it would easily call their attention. It was the tree of knowledge. But it was not working. Then, God told them that the fruit of that tree was forbidden under penalty of death, but just in the hope that the warning would make them curious and go for it. It was not working either.

Nex, God doubled in Eve the emotion of curiosity so that she would go for it and entice Adam into eating of that tree. However, God had underestimated Eve's emotion of love. She had fallen in love with her man and she would never risk loosing him for no stupid fruit even if it looked the most appetitizing of all. Obviously, it didn't work.

The next step was to use the services of the serpent to persuade Eve that she had misunderstood the prohibition. That what would die in them was not themselves but their stupid innocence and naivete. Then, the serpent showed up on the very tree and somehow called for Eve's attention. As she approached, the dialogue started. To instigate the conversation, the serpent started with a question which surely would require an explanation. "Is it that you guys cannot eat from the trees in the Garden?" Bingo! Eve was locked in. The serpent got Eve to talk by explaining that only from the tree of knowledge, they were forbidden. "Why?" the serpent retortted. "Because we would die," she said. "Nonsense!" said the serpent. "You have misunderstood the whole thing. God meant to say that you two will become like gods, knowing good from evil."

Now, imagine, Eve must have thought, her man like a god! Without much ado, Eve reached for the fruit, ate it and told Adam that it was okay. Adam thought for a second and came to the conclusion that even if it were not okay, he would rather die with her beloved who had just enjoyed half of a fruit. Then he ate the other half and went on eating more. The serpent was right. They did not die. And the first knowledge they acquired was of how much they did not know. I mean, that they were naked, completely destitute of knowledge.

It didn't take too long for God to appear in the Garden to collect the fruit of His enterprise. It had finally happened what He wanted without His having to do anything against man's free will. Then, He formally defined some punishments to everyone according to their nature anyway, and got them out of the Garden into the greater world out there, so that they would grow in knowledge by seeking for God, which would be the right method.

Now, the third phase or Reality, the account of Creation is supposed to point to. I mean, the Humanistic approach, which is the purpose of the double allegory. The riddle points to the three phases in the development of man: Childhood, adulthood, and old age. Here, only the enlightened with Philosophical training dwells. I mean, the Theist who is big enough not to let him or herself be intoxicated by blind faith. In this class we can find also Atheists and Agnostics but under the subclass of sarchasm for not being able to harmonize enlightenment with the conception of God free of anthropomorphism.

Childhood is understood by that phase in the Garden when God would have to provide man with everything. That's the phase when we are dependent on our parents or on others for all our needs. That's the phase of walking on our four legs.

Adulthood is applied to that time when man ate of the tree of knowledge and became conscious of himself. That's when we actually become an adult and responsible for our own actions. I mean, when we can stand on our own two legs, so to speak.

Regarding the phase of old age, the allegory of Creation does not go into details, but it's when we become dependent again on others, especailly our children to take care of us. I mean, the phase of walking on two legs and a cane.

Ben

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You are quite the topic creator as of late...

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You are quite the topic creator as of late...

Did you read this one? If you did, what's your feedback? Atheists don't like theists to think metaphorically. Otherwise, they will have nothing to

say about the believers of talking serpents.

Ben

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Did you read this one? If you did, what's your feedback? Atheists don't like theists to think metaphorically. Otherwise, they will have nothing to

say about the believers of talking serpents.

Ben

Many atheists do not like theists to think about anything that might support their argument. They do not want them to think about things metaphorically because then they cannot point out the absurdities of their beliefs. They want them to take the Bible as literal so they can point out all of the contradictions but yet they don’t want them to take the Bible as literal because if they do they cannot believe in evolution and an old earth and other things. They do not like people that have a “God of convenience” because they cannot point out all of the horrible things found in the Bible and at the same time they want them to believe everything the Bible says so that they can point out how immoral it is. Bottom line is many atheists are just looking for a reason to argue.

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THE DOUBLE ALLEGORY OF CREATION

There are three stages for the account of Creation in Genesis: Two allegories and the Reality which the allegories point to: Man as the theme of Creation.

The first allegory in the Genesis account of Creation is in the letter of the account, and here abide the masses of religious people for taking the account at its face value. I mean, Adam and Eve in the Garden being provided for by God with all their needs, being told what's allowed and forbidden in the Garden, being misled by the serpent into eating of a forbidden tree, and eventually being punished with different kinds of punishments respectively on all three of them, etc. Just literally as it is written.

I've come across an additional one to those which you've mentioned.

The tree of life and the tree of knowledge are euthanisms for sex. The tree of life is about sex without orgasm and the tree of knowledge is about sex with orgasm. Adam and Eve were allowed to have sex in the Garden of Eden but they werent allowed to have orgasms.

The orginal sin was orgasm which caused spiritual death (not physical death) as it closed the mind off from higher consciousness. The end of higher consciousness made Adam and Eve like we are today. We are seperated from higher consciousness which is the Garden of Eden and are forced to propagate our species like animals as punishment.

To enter back into the Garden of Eden you need to be born again which means the rebirth of your own higher consciousness. If you follow eastern religion that means tantric sex where you learn to have sex without orgasm. Amassing enough 'Sexual energy' reawakens the higher consciousness and is the route back to divinity.

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Many atheists do not like theists to think about anything that might support their argument. They do not want them to think about things metaphorically because then they cannot point out the absurdities of their beliefs. They want them to take the Bible as literal so they can point out all of the contradictions but yet they don't want them to take the Bible as literal because if they do they cannot believe in evolution and an old earth and other things. They do not like people that have a "God of convenience" because they cannot point out all of the horrible things found in the Bible and at the same time they want them to believe everything the Bible says so that they can point out how immoral it is. Bottom line is many atheists are just looking for a reason to argue.

Many theists are also looking for reasons to argue, pointing out how wrong us atheists are. Glad you said many and not all....... I know......old conversations.

I am an atheist and am only looking to understand theists and figure out what makes them tick. I like rational friendly discourse and if I do, you can be sure that there are many others like me in this world.

I will say that I don't like arguing about anything in the bible as I don't believe it to be the word of god. I want to hear arguments from theists based on their own personal thoughts and not from what's written in the bible. If a theist starts quoting scriptures or passages from the bible then I'm out of there. In part, because I don't really know the bible that well, and in part because it tells me that the person isn't really thinking for themselves but rather relying on the bible.......

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Posted (edited)

Many theists are also looking for reasons to argue, pointing out how wrong us atheists are. Glad you said many and not all....... I know......old conversations.

I am an atheist and am only looking to understand theists and figure out what makes them tick. I like rational friendly discourse and if I do, you can be sure that there are many others like me in this world.

I will say that I don't like arguing about anything in the bible as I don't believe it to be the word of god. I want to hear arguments from theists based on their own personal thoughts and not from what's written in the bible. If a theist starts quoting scriptures or passages from the bible then I'm out of there. In part, because I don't really know the bible that well, and in part because it tells me that the person isn't really thinking for themselves but rather relying on the bible.......

Good points.

If I do argue about the Bible I argue about what it is and the context of it, not the words in it. Like you said I do not believe it is the word of God but it is the same as any other ancient text. Quoting the Bible has about as much of an affect on me as quoting Iliad, the Odyssey, or Jack and the Beanstalk. At least if they argue about the context of the Bible and still believe what they do I think it is fair to say that they are at least thinking for themselves.

Edited by HuttonEtAl

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Posted (edited)

Bro. Ben:

I would like to point out some scriptures which would not support those allegories. First of all, in the beginning God created heaven and earth. We don't know how long before the six day creation week that heaven and earth were created; but some time lapsed from the beginning until the six days of creation when it became "without form and void." When God moved across the face of waters, He saw that the earth was submerged in water, (also supported by II Peter 3:6), and He saw the creation was vain, and "confusion and emptiness" (translated from tohu and bohu "without form and void" which in Isa.34:11 is "confusion and emptiness."

God is not the author of confusion. (I Cor.14:33) The devil is. God who had given Lucifer for a covering of the earth, saw that Lucifer had transformed heaven and earth into confusion and emptiness. Therefore, God set about a plan. The first sting operation. God does not execute judgement on what He knows. He has to have two witnesses. He makes the same rule of two witnesses without contradictions for the Jews to use in their justice rulings in Jewish Old Testament courts.

Every day, except Day Two, when God created things He would step back and survey His creation and say - Ah! Good! Not perfect. Not sinless; but good for His purposes. He had to take this vast amount of water that covered the earth and put it in a reservoir in the firmament above the earth. This was in reserve for the day God knew He would have to use in a Deluge it to make a curve correction on the wickedness on earth. He found no joy in Day Two and said nothing was good about that day.

He made up for it by saying on Day Six, twice, that He creation was good. When He got to Gentiles, (male and female), God said, "Very good." Very good for His purposes. Not perfect, Not sinless; but very good for His purposes. Up to this point, every time God created something He spoke them into existence.

Day Eight, (eight being God's number for beginning again which is already - remember Jesus arose on the eighth day), God used His hands and formed Adam (like a potter with clay). Adam was the first Jew. Next God created only domestic animals. Then God performed the first clone. He created Eve. Not from an egg or a seed but from Adam's flesh and bone. Blood is manufactured in the bone. Eve had Adam's exact same DNA.

Identical twins are identical because they have the exact same DNA. You cannot get variety of races from two of the same.

Sinless -- Adam was not. He was naked but not ashamed of that sin. God never changes His mind about nudity or incest being a sin. Adam was a sinner but did not know it. He needed knowledge. ADAM LIED TO EVE and said "if you TOUCH the fruit, you will die that very same day." Not begin to die and finally die 900 years later. The very same day they ate the fruit they would die. When she touched the fruit and did not die and then realized it was fruit which would make one spiritually wise; she ate the fruit.

Just as the serpent said, it would make them like gods knowing good and evil. Gods (little "g") is what priests were called. Remember the witch called up Samuel from the grave for King Saul and she saw Samuel with gods in Paradise?

When they gained knowledge of good and evil, their souls died to sin that very day. God ascended back into heaven because they were now like Them, armed with knowledge of good and evil.

God did not curse all creation. He cursed the serpent above all animals. That curse is still in effect. No matter how vicious the animal, the serpent is hated and cursed more. God did not curse the whole earth. He cursed the ground where the tree was. Once God blesses something it is blessed forever. Once God curses something it is cursed forever. That very same cursed spot is where Jesus hung on a tree to pay for the sins of God elect. Elect from the foundations of the earth.

When were the sure foundations of the earth established? Not at the beginning when heaven and earth were created.—The six days of Creation week!!! Jesus was as good as our redemption, as payment for us, from the very foundation when the sting operation was planned. (Rev. 13:8) But was not actually done until 4,000 years later.

This is all about catching the devil and his angels. Salvation of His elect is predestined, called, justified, and glorified. (Rom. 8: 28-30) "Free will" for eternal salvation is not in the Bible. "Free will" for earthly, timely salvation for the predestined elect by obeying and receiving blessings and entrance into God's protective Kingdom government of Heaven here while on earth is the reason we need the gospel.

I'm sorry this is long. I know it is hard to read long posts.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen

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I've come across an additional one to those which you've mentioned.

The tree of life and the tree of knowledge are euthanisms for sex. The tree of life is about sex without orgasm and the tree of knowledge is about sex with orgasm. Adam and Eve were allowed to have sex in the Garden of Eden but they werent allowed to have orgasms.

Lmao. You'd think God could've made it more clearer.
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Those ideas are not in touch with the traditional Hebrew narratives of the Garden of Eden account. Read the book of Enoch. The tree of knowledge is traditionally the Fig tree. Obviously it is symbolic of a greater theme. The Serpent is traditionally one member of a band of 18 watchers who came to earth because they were enticed by the beauty and hair of women, and wanted them as wives. God was not trying to get Adam or Eve to "eat the fruit".

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Many atheists do not like theists to think about anything that might support their argument. They do not want them to think about things metaphorically because then they cannot point out the absurdities of their beliefs. They want them to take the Bible as literal so they can point out all of the contradictions but yet they don't want them to take the Bible as literal because if they do they cannot believe in evolution and an old earth and other things. They do not like people that have a "God of convenience" because they cannot point out all of the horrible things found in the Bible and at the same time they want them to believe everything the Bible says so that they can point out how immoral it is. Bottom line is many atheists are just looking for a reason to argue.

Yes, to argue about things they cannot explain; and to discard what they cannot replace with.

Ben

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I've come across an additional one to those which you've mentioned.

The tree of life and the tree of knowledge are euthanisms for sex. The tree of life is about sex without orgasm and the tree of knowledge is about sex with orgasm. Adam and Eve were allowed to have sex in the Garden of Eden but they werent allowed to have orgasms.

The orginal sin was orgasm which caused spiritual death (not physical death) as it closed the mind off from higher consciousness. The end of higher consciousness made Adam and Eve like we are today. We are seperated from higher consciousness which is the Garden of Eden and are forced to propagate our species like animals as punishment.

To enter back into the Garden of Eden you need to be born again which means the rebirth of your own higher consciousness. If you follow eastern religion that means tantric sex where you learn to have sex without orgasm. Amassing enough 'Sexual energy' reawakens the higher consciousness and is the route back to divinity.

Too mysthical and contradictory. The tree of life could not be sex without orgasm because life is possible only by means of orgasm.

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Posted (edited)

Bro. Ben:

I would like to point out some scriptures which would not support those allegories. First of all, in the beginning God created heaven and earth. We don't know how long before the six day creation week that heaven and earth were created; but some time lapsed from the beginning until the six days of creation when it became "without form and void." When God moved across the face of waters, He saw that the earth was submerged in water, (also supported by II Peter 3:6), and He saw the creation was vain, and "confusion and emptiness" (translated from tohu and bohu "without form and void" which in Isa.34:11 is "confusion and emptiness."

God is not the author of confusion. (I Cor.14:33) The devil is. God who had given Lucifer for a covering of the earth, saw that Lucifer had transformed heaven and earth into confusion and emptiness. Therefore, God set about a plan. The first sting operation. God does not execute judgement on what He knows. He has to have two witnesses. He makes the same rule of two witnesses without contradictions for the Jews to use in their justice rulings in Jewish Old Testament courts.

Every day, except Day Two, when God created things He would step back and survey His creation and say - Ah! Good! Not perfect. Not sinless; but good for His purposes. He had to take this vast amount of water that covered the earth and put it in a reservoir in the firmament above the earth. This was in reserve for the day God knew He would have to use in a Deluge it to make a curve correction on the wickedness on earth. He found no joy in Day Two and said nothing was good about that day.

He made up for it by saying on Day Six, twice, that He creation was good. When He got to Gentiles, (male and female), God said, "Very good." Very good for His purposes. Not perfect, Not sinless; but very good for His purposes. Up to this point, every time God created something He spoke them into existence.

Day Eight, (eight being God's number for beginning again which is already - remember Jesus arose on the eighth day), God used His hands and formed Adam (like a potter with clay). Adam was the first Jew. Next God created only domestic animals. Then God performed the first clone. He created Eve. Not from an egg or a seed but from Adam's flesh and bone. Blood is manufactured in the bone. Eve had Adam's exact same DNA.

Identical twins are identical because they have the exact same DNA. You cannot get variety of races from two of the same.

Sinless -- Adam was not. He was naked but not ashamed of that sin. God never changes His mind about nudity or incest being a sin. Adam was a sinner but did not know it. He needed knowledge. ADAM LIED TO EVE and said "if you TOUCH the fruit, you will die that very same day." Not begin to die and finally die 900 years later. The very same day they ate the fruit they would die. When she touched the fruit and did not die and then realized it was fruit which would make one spiritually wise; she ate the fruit.

Just as the serpent said, it would make them like gods knowing good and evil. Gods (little "g") is what priests were called. Remember the witch called up Samuel from the grave for King Saul and she saw Samuel with gods in Paradise?

When they gained knowledge of good and evil, their souls died to sin that very day. God ascended back into heaven because they were now like Them, armed with knowledge of good and evil.

God did not curse all creation. He cursed the serpent above all animals. That curse is still in effect. No matter how vicious the animal, the serpent is hated and cursed more. God did not curse the whole earth. He cursed the ground where the tree was. Once God blesses something it is blessed forever. Once God curses something it is cursed forever. That very same cursed spot is where Jesus hung on a tree to pay for the sins of God elect. Elect from the foundations of the earth.

When were the sure foundations of the earth established? Not at the beginning when heaven and earth were created.—The six days of Creation week!!! Jesus was as good as our redemption, as payment for us, from the very foundation when the sting operation was planned. (Rev. 13:8) But was not actually done until 4,000 years later.

This is all about catching the devil and his angels. Salvation of His elect is predestined, called, justified, and glorified. (Rom. 8: 28-30) "Free will" for eternal salvation is not in the Bible. "Free will" for earthly, timely salvation for the predestined elect by obeying and receiving blessings and entrance into God's protective Kingdom government of Heaven here while on earth is the reason we need the gospel.

I'm sorry this is long. I know it is hard to read long posts. God bless us all is my prayer.

Yes, long but a very interesting reading, though. I have got a question about something you said above about Jesus. Was it a mistake of yours to say that he arose on the eighth day? I thought that it was on the third day. What did you have in mind if it was not a mistake?

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada

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Those ideas are not in touch with the traditional Hebrew narratives of the Garden of Eden account. Read the book of Enoch. The tree of knowledge is traditionally the Fig tree. Obviously it is symbolic of a greater theme. The Serpent is traditionally one member of a band of 18 watchers who came to earth because they were enticed by the beauty and hair of women, and wanted them as wives. God was not trying to get Adam or Eve to "eat the fruit".

One more thing about the allegory of the Genesis account of Creation is that those trees (knowledge and life) were but symbols for the granting of attributes. The one of knowlege which was given to man, and the one of eternal life which was denied him.

Ben

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Many atheists do not like theists to think about anything that might support their argument. They do not want them to think about things metaphorically because then they cannot point out the absurdities of their beliefs. They want them to take the Bible as literal so they can point out all of the contradictions but yet they don't want them to take the Bible as literal because if they do they cannot believe in evolution and an old earth and other things. They do not like people that have a "God of convenience" because they cannot point out all of the horrible things found in the Bible and at the same time they want them to believe everything the Bible says so that they can point out how immoral it is. Bottom line is many atheists are just looking for a reason to argue.

I've had thousands of discussions with atheist and studied them in the process. I have to say your opnion here mirrors exactly the games I've seen them play.

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Bro. Ben:

Up to this point, every time God created something He spoke them into existence.

Hey Copen, do you know that Creation has never finished? Therefore, I never say that God creatED but that God creates. Once Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation. He had delivered a leture about the expansion of the universe. Scientists are still not sure how the universe expands. IMO, according to Einstein, it could very well be God at His work of Creation.

Ben

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Posted (edited)

Yes, long but a very interesting reading, though. I have got a question about something you said above about Jesus. Was it a mistake of yours to say that he arose on the eighth day? I thought that it was on the third day. What did you have in mind if it was not a mistake?

Ben

I thought I had gone on long enough. And I thought readers would count from the first day He entered Jerusalem on Palsm Sunday about 6 p.m. , the beginning of their day and the first day of their week, which was the 10th of Nissan.

The Passover Lamb had to be killed between 3 & 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan.

10th, 11th, 12th, 13th were the four days the Lamb was observed to be sure it was spotless.

At 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was called Passover because it was the day the Passover Lamb was prepared. At 6 p.m. (the beginning of the 14th) was the Last Supper ---- or Feast of Unleavened Bread. We know the bread was prominent in the sop. But no lamb was eaten because the disciples thought Jesus has sent Judas after the meal was over to buy the Passover Lamb for the next day, the 15th of Nissan, which began at 6 p.m.

On the 5th day (five being God's number for death), nine hours later, still on the 14th of Nissan Jesus died on the cross between 3 and 6 p.m. Jesus was prepared for the grave and buried from 3 to 6 p.m. on the 14th. As He hung on the cross the priest wanted Jesus removed from the cross because the FEAST was about to begin at 6 p.m. which was the beginning of the next day, the 15th of Nissan.

Jesus was in the grave the last part of the 14th, all of the 15th-Passover Feast Day being the 6th day of the week, all of the 16th of Nissan-being the 7th day of the week, and THEN on the 17th of Nissan, early about 3 a.m. on Sunday morning while it was still dark and day was dawning (this being the 8th day) Jesus arose from the grave.

Yes Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. I was counting the day of the week being the 8th day of the week Jesus arose from the grave. Eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already.

God bless us all is my prayer

Edited by Copen

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Posted (edited)

Yes, to argue about things they cannot explain; and to discard what they cannot replace with.

Ben

. If we were to run with that logic of MANY atheists .. then we can safely say - MANY theists and religious people are just as bad.. right? well we must be fair about it..We could cut to the real deal and say MANY people whether they be believers or non believers will argue any points ...Its human nature ..You are all doing it on this forum every time you all jump to debate and argue..

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Posted (edited)

Hey Copen, do you know that Creation has never finished?

No that's Evolution... Unless you think that an almighty super being like God likes to ponder for over 14 billions years over his ' creations' ( including our universe and so on ) If so, he sure likes to take his jolly time..Like he has not yet made up his mind what will come next.. And yet he is meant to know how all will turn out before it all happens..

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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I thought I had gone on long enough. And I thought readers would count from the first day He entered Jerusalem on Palsm Sunday about 6 p.m. , the beginning of their day and the first day of their week, which was the 10th of Nissan.

The Passover Lamb had to be killed between 3 & 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan.

10th, 11th, 12th, 13th were the four days the Lamb was observed to be sure it was spotless.

At 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was called Passover because it was the day the Passover Lamb was prepared. At 6 p.m. (the beginning of the 14th) was the Last Supper ---- or Feast of Unleavened Bread. We know the bread was prominent in the sop. But no lamb was eaten because the disciples thought Jesus has sent Judas after the meal was over to buy the Passover Lamb for the next day, the 15th of Nissan, which began at 6 p.m.

On the 5th day (five being God's number for death), nine hours later, still on the 14th of Nissan Jesus died on the cross between 3 and 6 p.m. Jesus was prepared for the grave and buried from 3 to 6 p.m. on the 14th. As He hung on the cross the priest wanted Jesus removed from the cross because the FEAST was about to begin at 6 p.m. which was the beginning of the next day, the 15th of Nissan.

Jesus was in the grave the last part of the 14th, all of the 15th-Passover Feast Day being the 6th day of the week, all of the 16th of Nissan-being the 7th day of the week, and THEN on the 17th of Nissan, early about 3 a.m. on Sunday morning while it was still dark and day was dawning (this being the 8th day) Jesus arose from the grave.

Yes Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. I was counting the day of the week being the 8th day of the week Jesus arose from the grave. Eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already.

God bless us all is my prayer

How about if you quote every thing you say above in the gospels? This interpretation of yours is too fantastic. It will be much easier for me to follow up if I have every fact down on the page.

Ben

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No that's Evolution... Unless you think that an almighty super being like God likes to ponder for over 14 billions years over his ' creations' ( including our universe and so on ) If so, he sure likes to take his jolly time..Like he has not yet made up his mind what will come next.. And yet he is meant to know how all will turn out before it all happens..

No, I am not talking about evolution but expansion. The scientists have verified that the universe is in the constant process of expansion. They just do not know how it happens. Albert Einstein, when asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that, all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation. One can take that as a joke, but it also can be taken according to the concept of probability that the expansion of the universe could very well be God at His work of Creation.

Ben

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Posted (edited)

Count from the first day He entered Jerusalem on Psalms Sunday about 6 p.m. as day one. The beginning of their day started at 6 p.m. or sundown. It is easier to just say 6 p.m. was the beginning of their day. For both Jew and Gentile, Sunday is the first day of the week. For the Jew every holy day was called a sabbath whether it was on Saturday or not. On the 10th of Nissan, (Exodus 12:3&6) "In the 10th day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb. Ye shall keep it UNTIL the 14th day of the same month and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening" (John 12:1) "Then Jesus, 6 days before the passover, came to Bethany, where Lazarus was..." Counting the 10th day of Nissan as the first day of Passover up until the 14th is four days. The Passover was killed at evening on the 14th. The 14th would have been only the 5th day till Passover. We are lacking one day.

Just before the last supper, would have been on the 13th day of Nissan, the lamb couldn't be killed on a day sat aside for observance whether it was without spot or blemish. (Luke 22:1&7) "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is also call the Passover. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. "

The Passover Lamb had to be killed between 3 & 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan. All lambs had to be without spot and were daily sacrificed morning and evening. (Numbers 28: 4 "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at evening." According to Strong's Concordance and Scofield's 1967 KJV: "evening" here means at dusk before dark "literally between the two evenings from 3 to 6 p.m." Since the Jewish day is copied from creation where each day began at the evening when God pronounced "and the evening and the day was the (_first day, or the second day, etc.__). If the passover lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. it had to be at the end of a day not the beginning of that day. AT 6 p.m. was evening and the beginning of a Jewish day.

10th, 11th, 12th, 13th were the four days the Lamb was observed to be sure it was spotless. If the lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. in time for the Last Supper, the lamb would have been killed on a day, (the 13th) which was the 4th day to observe the lamb. As the 14th of Nissan and the Last Supper started at 6 p.m., the lamb could not be killed for another 9 hours. (It was the next day for the Gentiles. But it was still the 14th for the Jews.) (Mark 14:1&12) "After TWO days was the FEAST of Passover, and of unleavened bread...And the first of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover." (Exodus 12:18) "In the first month," (NISSAN), "on the 14th day of the month at evening ye shall eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month at evening." So the 14th at evening (6p.m.) was the 1st day of unleavened bread. It was also called passover because that was when the Passover lamb was killed.

At 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was called Passover because it was the day the Passover Lamb was prepared. At 6 p.m. (the beginning of the 14th) was the Last Supper ---- or Feast of Unleavened Bread. We know the bread was prominent in the sop. But no lamb was eaten because the disciples thought Jesus has sent Judas after the meal was over to buy the Passover Lamb. (JOHN 13:26 & 29) "And when He had dipped the sof, He gave it to Judas Iscariot...then said Jesus unto him, what thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent He spoke this unto him. For some thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of for the FEAST." The next day, the 15th of Nissan, which began at 6 p.m. was the FEAST and the 6th day until Passover mentioned John 12: 1.

On the 5th day (five being God's number for death), nine hours later, still on the 14th of Nissan Jesus died on the cross between 3 and 6 p.m. Jesus was prepared for the grave and buried from 3 to 6 p.m. on the 14th. As He hung on the cross the priest wanted Jesus removed from the cross because the FEAST was about to begin at 6 p.m. at the beginning of the next day, the 15th of Nissan. (Mark 15:42) (John 19:42) "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was near at hand."

For further proof that the Passover lamb was not eaten at the Last Supper: Jesus had been arrested and taken the the high priest who later took Jesus to Pilate. The men who actually arrested Jesus knew that the only reason for the priest take Jesus to Pilate was so Jesus would get the death sentence. (John 18: 28) "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment; and it was early. And they themselves went not into the judgment hall, least they should be defiled; but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER."

Jesus was in the grave the last part of the 14th, all of the 15th-Passover Feast Day being the 6th day of the week, all of the 16th of Nissan-being the 7th day of the week AND THE SABBATH, and THEN on the 17th of Nissan, early about 3 a.m. on Sunday morning while it was still dark and day was dawning (this being the 8th day) Jesus arose from the grave. (JOHN 20:1) "The first day of the week, (Sunday), cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher..." Also (Luke 24:1) and (Matthew 28:1) "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher." (Mark 16:1&2) "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning of the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun."

It is note worthy that Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 tell about the resurrection on the first verse of those books. God's providential hand often shows up in the KJV translation.

As the crucifixion is given in the different books of the Bible, a pattern of every 3 hours something is mentioned. Therefore, God has kept with His every 3 hour military watch throughout the Bible but having Jesus resurrected at 3 a.m. By this time the Gentile day had caught up with the Jewish day. It was both Sunday for both at 3 a.m. As the Gentile day begins at 12:01 a.m.

Yes Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. I was counting the day of the week being the 8th day from Psalms Sunday that Jesus arose from the grave. Eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already.

God bless us all is my prayer[/background][/size]

How about if you quote every thing you say above in the gospels? This interpretation of yours is too fantastic. It will be much easier for me to follow up if I have every fact down on the page.

Ben

OKAY: Go back to my above comments. I will insert the scriptural references where I made statements. Trying to keep it from being so long. But here goes. If anything needs further clarification, please feel free to ask. If I don't know, we'll search together til we find the answer.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen

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Posted (edited)

Count from the first day He entered Jerusalem on Psalms Sunday about 6 p.m. as day one. The beginning of their day started at 6 p.m. or sundown. It is easier to just say 6 p.m. was the beginning of their day. For both Jew and Gentile, Sunday is the first day of the week. For the Jew every holy day was called a sabbath whether it was on Saturday or not. On the 10th of Nissan, (Exodus 12:3&6) "In the 10th day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb. Ye shall keep it UNTIL the 14th day of the same month and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening" (John 12:1) "Then Jesus, 6 days before the passover, came to Bethany, where Lazarus was..." Counting the 10th day of Nissan as the first day of Passover up until the 14th is four days. The Passover was killed at evening on the 14th. The 14th would have been only the 5th day till Passover. We are lacking one day.

Just before the last supper, would have been on the 13th day of Nissan, the lamb couldn't be killed on a day sat aside for observance whether it was without spot or blemish. (Luke 22:1&7) "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is also call the Passover. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. "

The Passover Lamb had to be killed between 3 & 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan. All lambs had to be without spot and were daily sacrificed morning and evening. (Numbers 28: 4 "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at evening." According to Strong's Concordance and Scofield's 1967 KJV: "evening" here means at dusk before dark "literally between the two evenings from 3 to 6 p.m." Since the Jewish day is copied from creation where each day began at the evening when God pronounced "and the evening and the day was the (_first day, or the second day, etc.__). If the passover lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. it had to be at the end of a day not the beginning of that day. AT 6 p.m. was evening and the beginning of a Jewish day.

10th, 11th, 12th, 13th were the four days the Lamb was observed to be sure it was spotless. If the lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. in time for the Last Supper, the lamb would have been killed on a day, (the 13th) which was the 4th day to observe the lamb. As the 14th of Nissan and the Last Supper started at 6 p.m., the lamb could not be killed for another 9 hours. (It was the next day for the Gentiles. But it was still the 14th for the Jews.) (Mark 14:1&12) "After TWO days was the FEAST of Passover, and of unleavened bread...And the first of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover." (Exodus 12:18) "In the first month," (NISSAN), "on the 14th day of the month at evening ye shall eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month at evening." So the 14th at evening (6p.m.) was the 1st day of unleavened bread. It was also called passover because that was when the Passover lamb was killed.

At 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was called Passover because it was the day the Passover Lamb was prepared. At 6 p.m. (the beginning of the 14th) was the Last Supper ---- or Feast of Unleavened Bread. We know the bread was prominent in the sop. But no lamb was eaten because the disciples thought Jesus has sent Judas after the meal was over to buy the Passover Lamb. (JOHN 13:26 & 29) "And when He had dipped the sop, He gave it to Judas Iscariot...then said Jesus unto him, what thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent He spoke this unto him. For some thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of for the FEAST." The next day, the 15th of Nissan, which began at 6 p.m. was the FEAST and the 6th day until Passover mentioned John 12: 1.

On the 5th day (five being God's number for death), nine hours later, still on the 14th of Nissan Jesus died on the cross between 3 and 6 p.m. Jesus was prepared for the grave and buried from 3 to 6 p.m. on the 14th. As He hung on the cross the priest wanted Jesus removed from the cross because the FEAST was about to begin at 6 p.m. at the beginning of the next day, the 15th of Nissan. (Mark 15:42) (John 19:42) "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was near at hand."

For further proof that the Passover lamb was not eaten at the Last Supper: Jesus had been arrested and taken the the high priest who later took Jesus to Pilate. The men who actually arrested Jesus knew that the only reason for the priest take Jesus to Pilate was so Jesus would get the death sentence. (John 18: 28) "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment; and it was early. And they themselves went not into the judgment hall, least they should be defiled; but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER."

Jesus was in the grave the last part of the 14th, all of the 15th-Passover Feast Day being the 6th day of the week, all of the 16th of Nissan-being the 7th day of the week AND THE SABBATH, and THEN on the 17th of Nissan, early about 3 a.m. on Sunday morning while it was still dark and day was dawning (this being the 8th day) Jesus arose from the grave. (JOHN 20:1) "The first day of the week, (Sunday), cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher..." Also (Luke 24:1) and (Matthew 28:1) "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher." (Mark 16:1&2) "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning of the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun."

It is note worthy that Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 tell about the resurrection on the first verse of those books. God's providential hand often shows up in the KJV translation.

As the crucifixion is given in the different books of the Bible, a pattern of every 3 hours something is mentioned. Therefore, God has kept with His every 3 hour military watch throughout the Bible by having Jesus resurrected at 3 a.m. By this time the Gentile day had caught up with the Jewish day. It was both Sunday for both at 3 a.m. As the Gentile day begins at 12:01 a.m.

Yes Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. I was counting the day of the week being the 8th day from Psalms Sunday that Jesus arose from the grave. Eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already.

God bless us all is my prayer[/background][/size]

How about if you quote every thing you say above in the gospels? This interpretation of yours is too fantastic. It will be much easier for me to follow up if I have every fact down on the page.

Ben

OKAY: Go back to my above comments. I will insert the scriptural references where I made statements. Trying to keep it from being so long. But here goes. If anything needs further clarification, please feel free to ask. If I don't know, we'll search together til we find the answer.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited by Copen

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Posted (edited)

No, I am not talking about evolution but expansion. The scientists have verified that the universe is in the constant process of expansion. They just do not know how it happens. (SNIP)

And religious people do not know how it all happens or why it happen for that matter either... Evolution has not ended expansion...we will most likely not see.. it takes a long time ..Evolution most likely will not end either... I do not support creationism in the same sense you would..

Albert Einstein, when asked if he believed in God, he answered and said that, all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation.

He most likely said it as a bit of fun...it doesn't really mean anything of great relevance ...anyone could have said that line..I see no point in mentioning Albert Einstein. I do not understand why you feel you need to keep bringing his name up..........

Not a single person who follows God and thinks we are all part of creationism..will never EVER be able to tell you how it all happened OR know why.Maybe that is why Einstein was saying..and he said it in fun...he knew no one can pin point it, and knew we wont be able to..not if it includes God .. I guess you feel mentioning the odd scientist in your posts might make us think its a good point... But fact is...no one can pin point what you speak of.....

I can say I believe god is responsible for Evolution.. but that is just a belief... pretty much like creationism..all a belief.. You are not discussing any facts.. You would be if you were to talk Evolution...lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Count from the first day He entered Jerusalem on Psalms Sunday about 6 p.m. as day one. The beginning of their day started at 6 p.m. or sundown. It is easier to just say 6 p.m. was the beginning of their day. For both Jew and Gentile, Sunday is the first day of the week. For the Jew every holy day was called a sabbath whether it was on Saturday or not. On the 10th of Nissan, (Exodus 12:3&6) "In the 10th day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb. Ye shall keep it UNTIL the 14th day of the same month and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening" (John 12:1) "Then Jesus, 6 days before the passover, came to Bethany, where Lazarus was..." Counting the 10th day of Nissan as the first day of Passover up until the 14th is four days. The Passover was killed at evening on the 14th. The 14th would have been only the 5th day till Passover. We are lacking one day.

Just before the last supper, would have been on the 13th day of Nissan, the lamb couldn't be killed on a day sat aside for observance whether it was without spot or blemish. (Luke 22:1&7) "Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread drew near, which is also call the Passover. Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. "

The Passover Lamb had to be killed between 3 & 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan. All lambs had to be without spot and were daily sacrificed morning and evening. (Numbers 28: 4 "The one lamb shalt thou offer in the morning, and the other lamb shalt thou offer at evening." According to Strong's Concordance and Scofield's 1967 KJV: "evening" here means at dusk before dark "literally between the two evenings from 3 to 6 p.m." Since the Jewish day is copied from creation where each day began at the evening when God pronounced "and the evening and the day was the (_first day, or the second day, etc.__). If the passover lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. it had to be at the end of a day not the beginning of that day. AT 6 p.m. was evening and the beginning of a Jewish day.

10th, 11th, 12th, 13th were the four days the Lamb was observed to be sure it was spotless. If the lamb was killed between 3 and 6 p.m. in time for the Last Supper, the lamb would have been killed on a day, (the 13th) which was the 4th day to observe the lamb. As the 14th of Nissan and the Last Supper started at 6 p.m., the lamb could not be killed for another 9 hours. (It was the next day for the Gentiles. But it was still the 14th for the Jews.) (Mark 14:1&12) "After TWO days was the FEAST of Passover, and of unleavened bread...And the first of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover." (Exodus 12:18) "In the first month," (NISSAN), "on the 14th day of the month at evening ye shall eat unleavened bread until the 21st day of the month at evening." So the 14th at evening (6p.m.) was the 1st day of unleavened bread. It was also called passover because that was when the Passover lamb was killed.

At 6 p.m. on the 14th of Nissan was the Feast of Unleavened Bread. It was called Passover because it was the day the Passover Lamb was prepared. At 6 p.m. (the beginning of the 14th) was the Last Supper ---- or Feast of Unleavened Bread. We know the bread was prominent in the sop. But no lamb was eaten because the disciples thought Jesus has sent Judas after the meal was over to buy the Passover Lamb. (JOHN 13:26 & 29) "And when He had dipped the sof, He gave it to Judas Iscariot...then said Jesus unto him, what thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent He spoke this unto him. For some thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of for the FEAST." The next day, the 15th of Nissan, which began at 6 p.m. was the FEAST and the 6th day until Passover mentioned John 12: 1.

On the 5th day (five being God's number for death), nine hours later, still on the 14th of Nissan Jesus died on the cross between 3 and 6 p.m. Jesus was prepared for the grave and buried from 3 to 6 p.m. on the 14th. As He hung on the cross the priest wanted Jesus removed from the cross because the FEAST was about to begin at 6 p.m. at the beginning of the next day, the 15th of Nissan. (Mark 15:42) (John 19:42) "There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was near at hand."

For further proof that the Passover lamb was not eaten at the Last Supper: Jesus had been arrested and taken the the high priest who later took Jesus to Pilate. The men who actually arrested Jesus knew that the only reason for the priest take Jesus to Pilate was so Jesus would get the death sentence. (John 18: 28) "Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment; and it was early. And they themselves went not into the judgment hall, least they should be defiled; but that they might EAT THE PASSOVER."

Jesus was in the grave the last part of the 14th, all of the 15th-Passover Feast Day being the 6th day of the week, all of the 16th of Nissan-being the 7th day of the week AND THE SABBATH, and THEN on the 17th of Nissan, early about 3 a.m. on Sunday morning while it was still dark and day was dawning (this being the 8th day) Jesus arose from the grave. (JOHN 20:1) "The first day of the week, (Sunday), cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulcher..." Also (Luke 24:1) and (Matthew 28:1) "In the end of the sabbath as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher." (Mark 16:1&2) "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary, the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him. And very early in the morning of the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulcher at the rising of the sun."

It is note worthy that Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:1 and John 20:1 tell about the resurrection on the first verse of those books. God's providential hand often shows up in the KJV translation.

As the crucifixion is given in the different books of the Bible, a pattern of every 3 hours something is mentioned. Therefore, God has kept with His every 3 hour military watch throughout the Bible but having Jesus resurrected at 3 a.m. By this time the Gentile day had caught up with the Jewish day. It was both Sunday for both at 3 a.m. As the Gentile day begins at 12:01 a.m.

Yes Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights. I was counting the day of the week being the 8th day from Psalms Sunday that Jesus arose from the grave. Eight being God's number for beginning again that which is already.

God bless us all is my prayer[/background][/size]

How about if you quote every thing you say above in the gospels? This interpretation of yours is too fantastic. It will be much easier for me to follow up if I have every fact down on the page.

Ben

OKAY: Go back to my above comments. I will insert the scriptural references where I made statements. Trying to keep it from being so long. But here goes. If anything needs further clarification, please feel free to ask. If I don't know, we'll search together til we find the answer.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Now, I understand what you mean by counting eight days from the day Jesus entered Jerusalem on Palm's Sunday. But it does not at all solve the problem with the three days and three nights that Jesus was supposed to remain in the tomb till resurrection, according to Matthew 12:40.

Ben

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