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CakeOrDeath

Ghost Hunting - unprecedented levels

22 posts in this topic

So it is one thing to request evidence from people who've have anedoctal tales of hauntings and sightings.

But with the massive amount of organized and somewhat knowledgealbe groups that are currently investigating the paranormal (just look at the number of investigators and groups on this site alone) why has there not been one decent piece of evidence?

How do actual ghost hunters respond to this? Do you guys think every other team is "donig it wrong" and you will be the lucky/skilled group that captures something definitive. Or are the sketchy fuzzy bits of EVP or occassioanl EMF spike evidence enough?

I know the post sounds confrontational to a degree, and I accept that, but in reality I am VERY curious, I'm not at all convinced that there is nothing supernatural in our world, I just wonder if these "teams" are spinning their wheels in the wrong direction?

For example, some team decided FLIR was the it thing. They didn't capture anything, no proof it helps in investigation, but now it's a go to tool for any "serious" ghost hunter.

EMF - again nothing solid, no proof that these meters do anything to help, yet teams have adopted this as standard equipment..why?

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Posted (edited)

Do you have any suggestions to help in getting such evidence? So far this is what the masses have latch on to in the ghost hunting field. Until something else comes along. How do you gather scientific evidence for something that suppose to be beyond scientific explanation or measurement? All you have are people running around trying confirm and recreate rare events, assuming the event in question is/was real that is.

Not all evps are fuzzy, you have the too good to be true ones. But it is possible to take such as hard evidence?

How about these "spirit boxes" everyone is using now? If you had one and heard voices responding to you, how would you take it?

Edited by A Silent Shadow

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I saw a ghost one time but unfortunately I was so amazed by it I never thought about proving to anyone I did see it.

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Posted (edited)

I've said it multiple times on here and will say it again. The world of the Paranormal as whole is in it's infantile stages. What we have in society regarding the issue of the Paranormal is something similar to the Spiritualists from the 20's and 30's. Frauds were using simple tricks and the uneducated masses to milk millions from society. Claiming they would contact their deceased loved ones and do all sorts of super natural things for money. This only stopped after Houdini took it upon himself to expose this fraudulent behavior.

Fast Forward to modern times and the masses watching GH, GHI, GA and the like and all of a sudden you have thousands of "Professional Investigators" stomping through cemeteries, people's homes, abandoned buildings any with simple equipment they've purchased off the internet, and without and scientific knowledge of how to actually gather data or use any scientific standards, they go about making great claims of the Paranormal.

Some go into people's homes and validate that their "loved one" is still in the home, or even worse, they scare the living daylights out of the children involved. Most is harmless, some isn't.

There are a very VERY select few whom are actually educated, connected with higher education entities and are using true scientific method to research this. The field of Paranormal Research is in a very infantile stage at this moment. Where they are simply setting up the procedures and protocols for going about the research.

edit: I hate typos and caught one

Edited by ColoradoParanormal
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Any other hunters care to share their theory on why more activity/evidence hasn't been sighted with the tenfold increase in the people actively looking for it? Especially with all of their tools and equipment?

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I've said it multiple times on here and will say it again. The world of the Paranormal as whole is in it's infantile stages. What we have in society regarding the issue of the Paranormal is something similar to the Spiritualists from the 20's and 30's. Frauds were using simple tricks and the uneducated masses to milk millions from society. Claiming they would contact their deceased loved ones and do all sorts of super natural things for money. This only stopped after Houdini took it upon himself to expose this fraudulent behavior.

Fast Forward to modern times and the masses watching GH, GHI, GA and the like and all of a sudden you have thousands of "Professional Investigators" stomping through cemeteries, people's homes, abandoned buildings any with simple equipment they've purchased off the internet, and without and scientific knowledge of how to actually gather data or use any scientific standards, they go about making great claims of the Paranormal.

Some go into people's homes and validate that their "loved one" is still in the home, or even worse, they scare the living daylights out of the children involved. Most is harmless, some isn't.

There are a very VERY select few whom are actually educated, connected with higher education entities and are using true scientific method to research this. The field of Paranormal Research is in a very infantile stage at this moment. Where they are simply setting up the procedures and protocols for going about the research.

edit: I hate typos and caught one

It's funny that you mentioned Houdini. He really saved alot of people from losing money, and was a major factor in exposing that spiritualism movement that was praying on people.

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Posted (edited)

It's funny that you mentioned Houdini. He really saved alot of people from losing money, and was a major factor in exposing that spiritualism movement that was praying on people.

Exactly! And this is where I believe the world is at again. Due to the inundation of Paranormal themed media, we have millions of uneducated and naive people susceptible to being taken advantage of by the modern day spiritualists. ie; the thousands of Ghost Hunting groups that have sprang up, the thousands of Psychics and the list goes on.

I believe a lot of the Paranormal Investigation groups around today don't mean to harm anyone or defraud anyone. They simply are uneducated and naive as well and go around conducting investigations making great claims of Ghosts and hauntings based off really nothing more than the education they've received watching Paranormal Media and as a result they cause damage to those they're "Helping" and give advice that could be potentially harmful or life threatening. There are some, who are intentionally wanting to defraud and I wont get into how much I despise them and believe they should be stopped at all cost!

Edited by ColoradoParanormal

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Posted (edited)

What do people mean by the lack of evidence?Can anyone say Youtube videos..hello!? About the quality of investigations done by naive investigators that don't know what the heck they're doing .I mean look at this youtube video in the link for instance. Surely this is the gold standard of Paranormal investigatingScary Youtube VId

I Kid I Kid. If you watch the video,its probably the funniest thing you'll see in you're life.At least it had me rolling :P

Edited by mattryan209

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What do people mean by the lack of evidence?Can anyone say Youtube videos..hello!? About the quality of investigations done by naive investigators that don't know what the heck they're doing .I mean look at this youtube video in the link for instance. Surely this is the gold standard of Paranormal investigatingScary Youtube VId

I Kid I Kid. If you watch the video,its probably the funniest thing you'll see in you're life.At least it had me rolling :P

lol ok when I first read your post about youtube I sincerely thought you were serious lol!!! That was great!

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Posted (edited)

lol ok when I first read your post about youtube I sincerely thought you were serious lol!!! That was great!

Thanks,I was hoping someone would enjoy that :lol: . I'm incredibly sarcastic about believing anything that comes on youtube unless the video has someone with credentials to back himself/herself up.I'm well aware Youtube is filled with amateur fraudsters who have nothing better to do than try to get attention by faking their videos with the use of video software.

Now on the topic of people with some kind of credentials that are taking a rigorous and scientific approach.I'm sure there are a people out there like that,but as Colorado Paranormal said they get overshadowed by the far more numerous thrill seekers who influenced by shows like Ghost Hunters, get some cheap equipment to look for ghosts and have no standards in providing evidence.

Now I have had my own paranormal experiences that God help me being the cynic I am, I've tries my best to rationalize away,so I'm willing to believe my own experiences only after carefully weeding out all other variables.I can't, however, convince myself to fully believe anything put forth by anyone else no matter how real it looks.The reason for this is, I only trust my own motives,and I have been fooled enough times by people in the past to make me the cynical person I am today.

The only way for me to be more open about an experience someone has is to either really know and trust that person,or know the credentials(education) and competence of someone who has taken great pains to research the paranormal. I think that probably rings true with most of the skeptics here,though some on here are so cynical that they are entirely close minded to any notion of the paranormal existing.

Now I did run into a video on My Ghost story fairly recently that caught my eye which I find is an interesting show to watch even if I hold most of it with an air of strong skepticism . It had to do with a biomedical engineer named Andy Coppock who graduated from Mit and own his company called PFM Engineering. He's actually trying to verify the existence of the paranormal, by using infrared lasers(he makes himself btw) that utilize a specific radius of the uv spectrum to catch entities on camera.These are highly expensive lasers,so I doubt his motive would be to sell them ghost hunters who on average don't have that kind of wealth.

Well,its late so I'll let you be the judge by watching the video.Disclaimer: I still have some personal skepticism notwithstanding since the guy may have credentials,but I don't really know him personally,but this is probably the most believable evidence I've ever seen on a tv program. He may turn out to be some complete fraud,with motives that I never thought of, so I never get my hopes up completely that what's happening on the vid is the real deal :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjD5X2vytfo

Edited by mattryan209

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Thanks,I was hoping someone would enjoy that laugh.gif . I'm incredibly sarcastic about believing anything that comes on youtube unless the video has someone with credentials to back himself/herself up.I'm well aware Youtube is filled with amateur fraudsters who have nothing better to do than try to get attention by faking their videos with the use of video software.

Now on the topic of people with some kind of credentials that are taking a rigorous and scientific approach.I'm sure there are a people out there like that,but as Colorado Paranormal said they get overshadowed by the far more numerous thrill seekers who influenced by shows like Ghost Hunters, get some cheap equipment to look for ghosts and have no standards in providing evidence.

Now I have had my own paranormal experiences that God help me being the cynic I am, I've tries my best to rationalize away,so I'm willing to believe my own experiences only after carefully weeding out all other variables.I can't, however, convince myself to fully believe anything put forth by anyone else no matter how real it looks.The reason for this is, I only trust my own motives,and I have been fooled enough times by people in the past to make me the cynical person I am today.

The only way for me to be more open about an experience someone has is to either really know and trust that person,or know the credentials(education) and competence of someone who has taken great pains to research the paranormal. I think that probably rings true with most of the skeptics here,though some on here are so cynical that they are entirely close minded to any notion of the paranormal existing.

Now I did run into a video on My Ghost story fairly recently that caught my eye which I find is an interesting show to watch even if I hold most of it with an air of strong skepticism . It had to do with a biomedical engineer named Andy Coppock who graduated from Mit and own his company called PFM Engineering. He's actually trying to verify the existence of the paranormal, by using infrared lasers(he makes himself btw) that utilize a specific radius of the uv spectrum to catch entities on camera.These are highly expensive lasers,so I doubt his motive would be to sell them ghost hunters who on average don't have that kind of wealth.

Well,its late so I'll let you be the judge by watching the video.Disclaimer: I still have some personal skepticism notwithstanding since the guy may have credentials,but I don't really know him personally,but this is probably the most believable evidence I've ever seen on a tv program. He may turn out to be some complete fraud,with motives that I never thought of, so I never get my hopes up completely that what's happening on the vid is the real deal laugh.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjD5X2vytfo

Hey my friend, yea I needed a good laugh! Thanks! Also, I am happy that you're aboard here, there are a select few of us who've been around a while tha are slowly educating and changing the way this community thinks and sees things. Rationally and Scientifically. So, to find that you have the same thought process as us, it's refreshing and very welcomed! :yes:

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Beside a ghost showing up on command and doing every thing you say, is there anyway to get evidence?

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There is zero unity in the paranormal community. Everyone believes they are the ones doing it right and everyone else is wrong. Until everyone gets their head out of their nether-regions and truly works toward a common goal, there will never be a proving of anything.

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Posted (edited)

There is a lot of science that has been conducted into the paranormal. A lot of the research and science has not been made available to the general public. For example. EVP has been studied by a number of scientists in Europe and even by the Catholic Church. The voices were found to be real! However. We can't say where and what the voices really are. Are the voices that of ghosts, demons, angels, or some thing other? After 30 yrs of my own research and dealing with folks like Dennis Hauck-Consultant for the Movie. "White Noise." I'm well aware of the facts... The voices are real...

As a consultant at times for media outlets concerning the paranormal. I can say there are very few of us who really have studied the subject and can produce any known facts.

Again, a lot of the facts have been covered and overlooked in some regards.

Education is the key.

Edited by TheEVPman

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I would love to hear ANY study that has proven the voices are "real" and sourceless. Most of the makeshift "devices" used to "capture" evps are ghostboxes, and other things that us whitenoise and "inbetween" radio fequencies that pick up "real" radio waves that contain ...wait for it, voices. These are quite "earthly" in nature. If you have a device that will transmit radio waves you will pick-up anything from radio broadcasts, babie monitors, CB radios, cordless phones (no cell) etc.

Also, I have listened to soooo many "evps" and well over 95% of the ones that I have heard can easily be dismissed as paradeolia. I like to call my wife and daughter into my office and let them "hear" the EVPs on youtube, ghsot hunters, ghost adventures etc, without letting them see the screen, they can alomst never get out of it what the "caption" wants you to hear.

I

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I would love to hear ANY study that has proven the voices are "real" and sourceless. Most of the makeshift "devices" used to "capture" evps are ghostboxes, and other things that us whitenoise and "inbetween" radio fequencies that pick up "real" radio waves that contain ...wait for it, voices. These are quite "earthly" in nature. If you have a device that will transmit radio waves you will pick-up anything from radio broadcasts, babie monitors, CB radios, cordless phones (no cell) etc.

Also, I have listened to soooo many "evps" and well over 95% of the ones that I have heard can easily be dismissed as paradeolia. I like to call my wife and daughter into my office and let them "hear" the EVPs on youtube, ghsot hunters, ghost adventures etc, without letting them see the screen, they can alomst never get out of it what the "caption" wants you to hear.

I

Hey, did you read my latest comment on the other topic about EVP/ITC? I've outlined and explained a number of issues with this very "technology" that you're speaking about. Go check it! Should peak your interest my friend! :tu:

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Posted (edited)

Look up Raudive and his work. The Catholic Church studied EVP as well. It's documented. I've worked in this field of EVP for 30 yrs.

There are many documented studies.

Try the methods for yourself... I have...

Controls are what is needed for sure.

The classes of EVP are based on how clear the words are. C class is most common. A class EVPs are rare.

Also, EVP is best listened to with headphones... And lets not for get some other things. Like for example. We must consider accents and dialects when listening to EVP. What might be considered an A class EVP to a person in the US, may not be so to a person from England. We must also consider physical limitations like a hearing loss.

The voices of EVP tend to be, raspy, fast, in nature at times adding to the distortion. Many times too, EVP seems to be sing songy in nature. Again EVP captured in a very clear voice is rare but happens.

Here's what some have said about EVP, and some documented facts.

Dr. Walter Uphoff of Colorado University told the press: "I hope that Raudive's minute work triggers parapsychologists, physicists, electronics technicians, and others to look for an explanation regarding this perplexing development (EVP) – which requires justified acceptance. People should be encouraged to deepen research in this field and to grant financial help for systematic research, in order to push further away the limits of the unknown in our time."

The Vatican expressed a keen interest in EVP research ever since. Pope Paul VI was kept informed of research being done from 1959 onwards by his good friend and EVP pioneer Friedrich Jurgenson. In fact, the Pope made Jurgenson a Knight Commander of the Order of St Gregory in 1969 for his work in EVP. In 1977, Jurgenson wrote fellow researcher Peter Bander: "I have found a sympathetic ear for the Voice Phenomenon in the Vatican.

I have won many wonderful friends among the leading figures in the Holy City. Today 'the Bridge' stands firmly on its foundations."

Furthermore, the cousin of Pope Pius XII, Rev. Professor Dr Gebhard Frei, co-founder of the Jung Institute, was an internationally known parapsychologist who worked closely with Konstantin Raudive. He even recorded his own EVP voices. He described one of his best documented recordings: Professor Dr. Gebhard Frei died on October 27, 1967. In November 1967, at numerous taping sessions, a voice giving its name as Gebhard Frei came through. The voice was identified by Professor Peter Hohenwarter of the University of Vienna as positively belonging to Dr Frei."

The Vatican gave permission for priests to conduct their own research into EVP. Father Leo Schmid had actually been assigned a small parish in Oeschegen, Switzerland, in 1967 to give him time to experiment with recording the mysterious voices discovered by Fathers Ernetti and Gemelli. He collected more than 10,000 voices, many of which were published in his book Wen Die Toten Reden (When the Dead Speak), published posthumously in 1976.

See, it's well documented...

Edited by TheEVPman

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Posted (edited)

Ummkay, so the Vatican is your documented research center, you do realize they believe in demons, winged beings, undead zombie-god-sons with incredible super powers just to name a few.

Your College professor - was acutally a professor of economics at Colorado U. He got into the whole EVP thing and hung out the Sarah Estep: She hears not just dead people but wait for it..... ALIENS too!

The belief in EVP in the United States seems to have mushroomed thanks to Sarah Estep, president of the American Association of Electronic Voice Phenomena, which claims to have members in some 40 states and publishes a newsletter. Estep claims that in the 1970s she started picking up voices on her husband's Teac reel-to-reel recorder. She is sure that the voices are spirits, proving there is life after death. Estep also claims to hear voices of aliens on some of her tapes. She says she has taped some 20,000 ghosts and aliens. Aliens don't speak English, however, so she is not sure what they are saying. Maybe she was picking up Satan speaking in tongues.

As far as the "grandfather of EVP", ya not that impressive either:

Other early pioneers include

Friedrich Jürgenson and Konstantin Raudive. If what Raudive thinks he was hearing were indeed voices from dead people, it confirms the findings of other spirit scientists like Gary Schwartz that the dead have very little of interest to say to us. Raudive would hear things like "I follow you tonight," "please interrupt," and "might be Mary-bin." David Ellis investigated Raudive's and Jürgenson's claims and published his results in The Mediumship of the Tape Recorder: A Detailed Examination of the (Jurgenson, Raudive) Phenomenon of Voice Extras on Tape Recordings (1978). Ellis was not convinced. In 1997, psychologist Imants Barušs conducted a series of experiments attempting to replicate Raudive's work. His results were published in 2001 in the Journal of Scientific Exploration. Barušs concluded that "none of the phenomena found...was clearly anomalous, let alone attributable to discarnate beings."*

While it is impossible to prove that all EVPs are due to natural phenomena, skeptics maintain that they are probably due to such things as interference from a nearby CB operator,

cross modulation, or ionospheric ducting. Given all the voices being transmitted these days by cell phones, AM and FM radios, TVs, baby monitors, walkie talkies, shortwave transmitters, etc., it isn't strange that unexpected voices should be heard now and then on our electronic equipment. I've picked up CB transmissions on my VCR and my neighbor's voice from her cordless phone on a baby monitor. Some of the "voices" are most likely people creating meaning out of random noise, a kind of auditory pareidolia or apophenia. And now that the phenomenon has a number of devoted followers (thanks in part to the movie "White Noise"), some hoaxers have probably entered the fray.

Edited by CakeOrDeath

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Posted (edited)

Again, research it. Try it... Explain the fact the voices are interactive and respond to questions???? How do you expain that????

BTW, Dennis Hauck the consultant for the movie, "White Noise" is a personal friend and colleague as well.

I'm aware of the possible sources of possible EVP. We can't say where the voices come from. We can only say they exsist. Are they demons, angles, aliens??? Or something else? We just don't know.

Are some of the tranmissions captured over ghost boxes and the likes some entity communicating with us? Possible??? I say yes... I can't say what the source is when they are interactive responding and repeating words and phrases. Keep in mind, so some of these experiments with EVP were conducted in Fareday cages too. So, radio signals weren't the source.

Again, after 30 yrs... My own experiences and indepth research confirms the phenomenon of ITCs and EVP.

Edited by TheEVPman

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You don't read posts do you...you just keep saying the 30 years thing....my post even referrenced your movie "whitenoise" I included several links to studies based on your dudes "original" experiments, the modern day results were pretty failsauce.

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Cake, try some experiments yourself... See for your self...

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Posted (edited)

Finally a couple people with brains in their heads... excuse my remark. Cake and Colorado I'm glad to read posts from people other than those that want to believe so bad that their mind assumes paranormal at the first hint of well anything... LOL

Personal experience honestly is the only thing keeping any interest n this subject. Like cake its hard to trust someone other than yourself. I know its quite cynical but how many times have we been blatantly lied to. Ill bet you can't even count how many times. Are there ghosts? I don't know. I have had two very specific experiences that allow me to wonder. They are personal and unnecessary to really talk about because there is nothing but my word to support them. So I leave that out of conversation usually. The emerging theories in quantum physics seems to support above normal occurrences that fall outside of what we currently understand. Does it support ghosts? Its hard to say. But In the definition of paranormal it is open for anything we have yet to understand. Paranormal does not simply mean ghosts. I think people forget that. Anyways I'm. Babbling so ill stop here for now. Before I do though... cake... Colorado .... I tip my hat to you two. Andcolorado I read about your study... concerns and experiments regarding ghost boxes and I have to say good job ol chap.

Edited by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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