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ozman

time machine paradox issue

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In this movie http://www.moviesdig.com/The-Time-Machine.html

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac

hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

Anyone disagree???

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If all of space and time equal the universe then it would seem that all that is required to travel in time is to leave the universe then reenter.

It would be like a record spinning with the position of the needle at any given moment representing the present. Simply picking up the needle and placing it back down in another place would require to not be within the record as a part of it but instead to be outside of it. Also one would need to be able to visually inspect the whole album to know where it is.

So we might have to learn to safely leave the universe and return before we could time travel.

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Anyone disagree???

Yes, I disagree.

If time travel is possible, you have to deal with the two big problems:

1. If it is possible to time travel, then why haven't we been visited from future time travelers? After all, now is the past that is leading to the supposed invention, so why hasn't anyone turned up? (Think about this too much and your head will implode..)

2. What would happen if instead of saving a life, you killed one or both of your parents? Would you at that moment disappear? Or are there infinite parallel universes that allow this kind of anomaly? (And if so, then return to item 1...)

I'm a great believer in time being a strictly one-way arrow. You can certainly do some tricky stuff to increase the rate it goes forward, but backward? Nah.

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1. If it is possible to time travel, then why haven't we been visited from future time travelers? After all, now is the past that is leading to the supposed invention, so why hasn't anyone turned up? (Think about this too much and your head will implode..)

I can see where you're coming from on this, however one does have to consider that IF time travel does become possible at some point in the future, we might well have had researchers, scientists, historians already come back. I recall a conversation with a friend once where we wondered if maybe a number of UFO sightings weren't possibly time travel ships from our own future. Now anything did would have to careful so it didn't disrupt the current timeline, but I personally don't think the timeline is so fragile that just coming back and observing would create some sort of paradox.

2. What would happen if instead of saving a life, you killed one or both of your parents? Would you at that moment disappear? Or are there infinite parallel universes that allow this kind of anomaly? (And if so, then return to item 1...)

As I recall from what I've seen on TV and read about, we really don't know how time works exactly. Parallel universes is the current mainstream thinking but really and truly it's just a guess made by very qualified scholars. Killing your parents would be like a preemptive abortion so to speak and might very well terminate you OR simply create a new parallel universe.........now my head is starting to ache a bit.

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time machine after her death.

I follow what you're saying, but this is really in the context of a fictional story line. In other words it's like saying if you live on a river and build a boat then you can't take the boat any further up stream than the point at which you built the boat. You see what I'm trying to say? Time really doesn't care when you built a time machine, just as the river doesn't care where you built the river boat.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

The real paradox here isn't the point at which the machine was built but rather saving his father from dying prematurely. There's no tell how his father living might or might no influence the current time line. Unless his father was saved and became a Global scale leader such as President of the US then caused a war or prevented one from happening. The time machine proper is not an anchor point in time other than at that point time travel became a reality. I'm not familiar with the story you're speaking of but the paradox was created in order to write a fictional story around. Now having said all that, I could be totally wrong about a time machine becoming a fixed anchor point in the fabric of time. I'm just offering up my two cents worth for your consideration really.

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Posted (edited)

I'm beginning to believe now that there is no past or future, there is only an everlasting now!

Einsteins theory say's that the closer you come to the speed of light the more that time slows until the universe time passes by very fast while everyone ages and you stay young and all that but in order for this to be true then the person coming close to the speed of light must have somehow left this universe alltogether and not be subject to it's rules since the universe itself is aging by fast while this person traveling close to light speed stays at same rate.

there is so much i can say and ask, it's just best left alone rather than try to understand it. but one thing is clear, there are secrets and unknown things out there, i believe much of nature is hidden and man's knowledge is a pin drop in the ocean. There's probably some very simple explanation to physics's mysteries such as dark matter. It may be that we live in a multidimensional universe and all things are possible. We could be like dog's with only one perception of the universe and world we live in. Much of it could be hidden, we could very well even all be interconnected in ways we never imagined before and that everything that exists may all be the very same thing in a hidden level of reality!

we could be superimposed and swimming in something hidden, if the higgs boson field can be hidden then imagine what else out there is hidden? we could be multiple layers of being that we ourselves our not even aware of which would explain astral projection, sleep paralysis and all that!

Edited by ozman
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Anybody remember how the signal from 8-track tapes would sometimes bleed over? While listening to one track, you could hear part of another track. I've wondered from time to time if some spiritual phenomena is a bleed-over from past/future time.

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The time paradox works like this:

You want to go back in time to save her life. You build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine. You go back in time and you succeed. She lives. Time catches up to where you were inspired to create the time machine to save her life, only now, you are not inspired to invent the machine, because she never died. You never had any reason to invent the machine. Ergo, the machine never gets invented. Which means that you were never able to go back in time to save her. Which means she dies. And then you get inspired to build a time machine... ad infinitum

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In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac

hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

Anyone disagree???

Even if time travel worked it would be of no help. It is after all time travel and not space travel. The Earth moves in it's path around the sun and the Solar system around the galactic center and one day puts the Earth millions of miles from where it was at that same time the day before. So even traveling for just a few hours, you would be where the Earth was when you started your journey but the Earth would not be there.

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In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac

hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

Anyone disagree???

not really much use having a time machine that has restrictions on where it will take you.

as for time machines themselves. i don't think that's how it's going to come about - time travel i mean. first of all time is only our perception so we don't really have to 'go' anywhere. hence the lack of need for a 'machine' to get us there.

travelling through 'time' will come about from within us not from something outside of us. that's my belief in any case.

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Even if time travel worked it would be of no help. It is after all time travel and not space travel. The Earth moves in it's path around the sun and the Solar system around the galactic center and one day puts the Earth millions of miles from where it was at that same time the day before. So even traveling for just a few hours, you would be where the Earth was when you started your journey but the Earth would not be there.

You got a good opinion here. The hardest part of time travel is the coordination. We don't have the map of the entire universe

- places moves around the earth because of rotation

- earth moves around the Sun

- the Sun moves around a galaxy

- a galaxy moves around ???

....

- ??? move around the the center of the universe

You'd wonder, with just a tiny second, how far you'd moved from the original absolute position (relative to the universe).

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Posted (edited)

Even if time travel worked it would be of no help. It is after all time travel and not space travel. The Earth moves in it's path around the sun and the Solar system around the galactic center and one day puts the Earth millions of miles from where it was at that same time the day before. So even traveling for just a few hours, you would be where the Earth was when you started your journey but the Earth would not be there.

Excellent point! :tu: Rotation of the Earth around the Sun, rotation of the Earth on it's axis, tilt of the Earth and the general movement of the Earth threw the Milky Way Galaxy. I think that's why it's often "time and space".

Ok, memo to the R&D department: Hey guy? Don't forget about where you are is as important as when you are. Give me an updated schedule based on that.

:yes:

Edited by keninsc

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I myself have thought of this topic very m,uch. And even though i am a 15 year old in the United States, i have came to a conclusion. The only possible way to fully understand timetravel and what it could do is to solve the paradox of: If you go back in time and changed something, you never would have changed it because it would have never been needed to change. So is this actually possible to truely change somehting in the past? Or would it have simply never needed to be changed? I personnally think the second because of this. In a scenerio, if i were to go back one minute before now and move the piece of papre in front of me, and go back forward to exactly when i had left, the paper would be, of course, moved. But would i remember moving it if it was in the past of my future present? Think what you want of this, but that is my responce.

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I myself have thought of this topic very m,uch. And even though i am a 15 year old in the United States, i have came to a conclusion. The only possible way to fully understand timetravel and what it could do is to solve the paradox of: If you go back in time and changed something, you never would have changed it because it would have never been needed to change. So is this actually possible to truely change somehting in the past? Or would it have simply never needed to be changed? I personnally think the second because of this. In a scenerio, if i were to go back one minute before now and move the piece of papre in front of me, and go back forward to exactly when i had left, the paper would be, of course, moved. But would i remember moving it if it was in the past of my future present? Think what you want of this, but that is my responce.

That going to depend on how fragile the current time line is really. If you go back in time and change a significant world event like say killing Hitler when he was born. That single event would have global significance and would change where we are now. How? Good question, because who can really say how the events from that point on might play out.

Now if you consider a less global change, like say going back in time to the lottery drawing that happened before the Monster one that was won by three different people and you played the winning number combination for that lottery. Ok, obviously you'd change the out come of the people who would have won the next drawing and just as obviously it would change your life as well, not to mention the lives of those around you just in case you decided to share the prize with friends and family. But, that change is really just a footnote really, if that because the vast majority of people really make very little impact on world events. You see what I'm saying? A change does occur, but the significance of that change really doesn't amount to a great deal, because that lottery was won by the following drawing by others, but the event itself was an event that did happen, it just happened a bit differently.

Not sure if I'm doing a good job or not explaining what I'm talking about and yest this is a very overly simplified break down. Yes, I am aware that we can't know what significant changes might come from such a thing but the majority are only going to effect a relatively small group of people in a relatively small area.

It's not like if you go back in time and step on some minor emerging new species you wipe us all out or you change history by simply having gone back in time. That's my twp-cents worth on the subject anyway.

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That going to depend on how fragile the current time line is really. If you go back in time and change a significant world event like say killing Hitler when he was born. That single event would have global significance and would change where we are now. How? Good question, because who can really say how the events from that point on might play out.

Now if you consider a less global change, like say going back in time to the lottery drawing that happened before the Monster one that was won by three different people and you played the winning number combination for that lottery. Ok, obviously you'd change the out come of the people who would have won the next drawing and just as obviously it would change your life as well, not to mention the lives of those around you just in case you decided to share the prize with friends and family. But, that change is really just a footnote really, if that because the vast majority of people really make very little impact on world events. You see what I'm saying? A change does occur, but the significance of that change really doesn't amount to a great deal, because that lottery was won by the following drawing by others, but the event itself was an event that did happen, it just happened a bit differently.

Not sure if I'm doing a good job or not explaining what I'm talking about and yest this is a very overly simplified break down. Yes, I am aware that we can't know what significant changes might come from such a thing but the majority are only going to effect a relatively small group of people in a relatively small area.

It's not like if you go back in time and step on some minor emerging new species you wipe us all out or you change history by simply having gone back in time. That's my twp-cents worth on the subject anyway.

I agree!! You wouldn't be able to save the girl, the girl will still die. Maybe a little differently but she will die, You may come to find out that you are in part to blame for her death because you were trying to save her. Technically all this already happened but not for you, not yet. You are going back and reliving it now, it is her past but it is your present. You were there all along but in your timeline this is just now happening.

I can see where you're coming from on this, however one does have to consider that IF time travel does become possible at some point in the future, we might well have had researchers, scientists, historians already come back. I recall a conversation with a friend once where we wondered if maybe a number of UFO sightings weren't possibly time travel ships from our own future. Now anything did would have to careful so it didn't disrupt the current timeline, but I personally don't think the timeline is so fragile that just coming back and observing would create some sort of paradox.

As I recall from what I've seen on TV and read about, we really don't know how time works exactly. Parallel universes is the current mainstream thinking but really and truly it's just a guess made by very qualified scholars. Killing your parents would be like a preemptive abortion so to speak and might very well terminate you OR simply create a new parallel universe.........now my head is starting to ache a bit.

I follow what you're saying, but this is really in the context of a fictional story line. In other words it's like saying if you live on a river and build a boat then you can't take the boat any further up stream than the point at which you built the boat. You see what I'm trying to say? Time really doesn't care when you built a time machine, just as the river doesn't care where you built the river boat.

The real paradox here isn't the point at which the machine was built but rather saving his father from dying prematurely. There's no tell how his father living might or might no influence the current time line. Unless his father was saved and became a Global scale leader such as President of the US then caused a war or prevented one from happening. The time machine proper is not an anchor point in time other than at that point time travel became a reality. I'm not familiar with the story you're speaking of but the paradox was created in order to write a fictional story around. Now having said all that, I could be totally wrong about a time machine becoming a fixed anchor point in the fabric of time. I'm just offering up my two cents worth for your consideration really.

I believe this is known as the Grandfather Paradox.

I strongly believe nothing would be changed, the time traveler was already there. Like someone stated before I think there is no past or future just an everlasting now, time is in the eye of the beholder. The anchor is the person, it is your point of view that creates time. Even tough you are going into the past, it is your present.

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There is a current that suggests that what happens is that there are an infinite number of dimensions and that ever decision we and other make creates new dimensions and all of these dimension coexist at the same time. Which gives me a bit of a headache thinking about all the same and yet different things happening at once. So perhaps there is only the here and now.

I recall watching a TV show on PBS back in the eighties where they were talking about time and how different physicists thought it might work. I recall one fellow contended that we could never go forward in time because the future hadn't happened yet. He agreed with the separate dimensional break up, but he felt the the here and now was much like the bow of a boat cutting a path across an absolutely flat, smooth lake and the wake generated by our movement in time were the way the varying dimensions sort of peeled off one another.

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i think another problem in time travel is that the time machine is not only traveling in time, it would be traveling in space as well. It would have to isolate its own spacetime volume, and move this isolated volume of spacetime somehow to its new location into the past.

I say this because I don't think time and space can be separated. Traveling only in the time dimension, the spatial dimensions would disappear for the machine, so how could the time machine exist at all during its journey with no space for it to occupy?

If the time machine itself travels backward in space as well as in time, what happens when the volume of space it occupies suddenly disappears from its original position in space, then suddenly appears in its new location in space? Two powerful explosions, I imagine. Of course, there could be a buffering system insatlled allowing the machine to gradually change positions.

At any rate, would the energy the volume of space the machine occupies as it travels from one temporal location to another circumvent the law of conservation of energy? The energy contained in the volume of space the machine occupies would disappear from our present universe and appear in our past universe. As energy cannot be created or destroyed, can this energy of spacetime volume be re-located in this temporal way?

It seems to me this would leave a spacetime/energy hole in our present universe, and add the same to our past universe. What would be the consequences of this?

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Unfortunately, I haven't a clue.

There is no law of physics that I know of that says you can't travel in time, at least not yet. By the same token, no one has figured out what the actual mechanics of such an event would be, it's pretty much all theoretical. How other laws of physics would be effected or effect it is hard to say.

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There is a current that suggests that what happens is that there are an infinite number of dimensions and that ever decision we and other make creates new dimensions and all of these dimension coexist at the same time. Which gives me a bit of a headache thinking about all the same and yet different things happening at once. So perhaps there is only the here and now.

i have heared a lot about this and i believe that something olike this could be feesable. But it is honestly hard to comprehend. Just like any other paradox is. But maybe this is one that can also allow science to go back into time and research on anything without the possibly of injuring our current timeline. Problem is, how do we come back to our own timeline? YTou could easily get screwed up and messed up. Time travel should be not only though of as when and where, but as when where and (insert word here that describes both). This could be one of the directions that the fourth dimension holds. and dimension has left, right, forward, and backword. 3rd dimension has left, right, forward, backwords, up, and down, So in theory, the 4th dimmension would have left, right, forward, backword, up, down, and maybe time is actually a direstion? Somewhat like walking from one house to another in your neighborhood, They are similar, but not exact. So maybe in order to use time travel, we need to break into the 4th dimension?

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Just to cross your eyes a bit further.. if you think this through, then if time travel is possible we must be existing in pretty much the only timeline in which it hasn't happened. Because all of the others where it *has* would already know that time travel existed - as soon as a time traveler really appeared, our existence would diverge from this one where it is still being surmised/debated.

Thing is, all these paradoxes and problems with the Earth no longer being there, and you not being able to get back to where you came from, the need for multiple timelines so you could kill yourself, etc ad infinitum can be easily removed by just saying - maybe time travel (except to a limited degree forwards) isn't possible.

Problems all solved!

So I'm going with Ockham, until shown otherwise. And if ever shown otherwise, I shall be most interested to learn how these things all work.. :yes:

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In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac

hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

Anyone disagree???

I am born, I go to school, I get married, I have a kid, the kid grows up to be a genius, the kid invents a time machine, I get in it and go back and stop myself marrying my wife so the kid is never born. Some think this a paradox but I disagree.

They are totally looking over time loops. From the end if I run time backwards I would go back around the time loop I've created. There is no paradox.

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All these comments are interesting to me. I think there are two ways of looking at this. Is the time traveler when he goes back to his own wedding, as Mr. Right Wing has said, another 'himself' observing his wedding, or is the time traveler actually the groom?

In other words, is the time traveler becoming his younger and younger self as he travels backwards in time, or is he a separate self observing himself in earlier time frames?

If one is becoming one's younger and younger self, then I would think the person would not be able to change anything that he has already done in his life, as in the past time frames he would not know he is a time traveler.

If the above is true except that the time traveler retains his memories he has before he began his time travel, then I don't think this is true time travel, as the person he was in the past would not be the same person who is visiting his past. In this case, his past would not be his real past because, carrying his future memories with him, he would not be his real past self.

If the time traveler were a separate self observing his past self, I suppose he could sneak around unnoticed and change things that would effect his past self's behavior. That would lead to a paradox when the time traveler returned to his original time, but while the time traveler is in the past as a separate self observing, for him those changes would not have happened yet, because he is still in the past.

In this scenario, i think it would be impossible for the time traveler to predict the evolution of these changes he has made. For him, it may be better to just remain in the past and go from there. Especially if he had remembered a future winning lottery number in his current future.

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That's the thing really. If you managed to travel back to say.....high school and when you arrive you were back to being the same awkward kid you were and you lost all your previous life experience.......then all youy've done is created a second you with all the same issues and not only that but everyone is going to be noticing the second.......you. At this point you just sort of screwed up the time line because everyone is going to notice and people in high places are going to get involved.

Obviously one of the functions of said time machine will be to preserve your future selfs life experience and knowledge you've gained. All though, It sure would have been nice to have me pop in back in the day and offer some advice based on what had already happened. However then you'd be facing yourself and after hearing what you had to say you'd wonder if you'd lie to yourself. (yes, every pun intended) It is stating to sound like a scene from the first Bill and Ted movie.

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In this movie http://www.moviesdig...me-Machine.html

The guy can't save the lady from death by going back in time because he built the time mac

hine after her death.

But I believe if a real life time machine was built then he can save her because since the materials to make the time machine already existed before the machine itself, then why couldn't a person save a life, like RON MALLET is trying to do with the laser light gravity bending time machine he is working on to try and save his father from a heart attack.

Anyone disagree???

Some time some things are better to be left alone. I am not saying I didn't try what is hipoteticly. But butterfly effect is still in play. When you do that you actualy create another universe... so How would you find a way back to your original universe?

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Also......just sort of thinking out loud here.....but suppose that time travel is no so good for your health? Don't know if it is or not, but it could be you have limited travel or numbers of "trips" so to speak. Our bodies really are only design to move one way through time, then suddenly your back forty years....or a hundred years.....or whatever. I'm wondering if maybe we might incur some sort of matter instability? Psychological issues due to the shifting of your place on the old time line, maybe? You might go crazy or you might explode, or everything would be hunky-dory.

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In quantum physic, by just observing a subject, the outcome is modified

Time is like a flat string. No matter what you do, you'll make it "vibrates" if you interact with it. Image an electric cord, bend it, make it touches the other side of the cord => explosion

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