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How Should We Deal with Violent Anarchists?

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OWS gave us a sample of how legal and proper protesting can be infiltrated and turned into acts of anarchy and violence. With the external social pressures of unemployment, rising prices and overall fear of future trends, it seems a given that protesting will increase. As a country how should we respond when groups like the Anarchists push the protests over into violence? How can cities respond without becoming too heavy handed and making the problems worse while trying to keep the citizenry safe?

I'm curious especially of what OWS folks think of this.

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OWS gave us a sample of how legal and proper protesting can be infiltrated and turned into acts of anarchy and violence. With the external social pressures of unemployment, rising prices and overall fear of future trends, it seems a given that protesting will increase. As a country how should we respond when groups like the Anarchists push the protests over into violence? How can cities respond without becoming too heavy handed and making the problems worse while trying to keep the citizenry safe?

I'm curious especially of what OWS folks think of this.

In this day and age I guess it is a very tricky thing to do. We have to tip toe so much anymore. Now, I say if there is violence and people are going to get hurt because of some crazies. Take care of business and do what you need to do.

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As a country how should we respond when groups like the Anarchists push the protests over into violence? How can cities respond without becoming too heavy handed and making the problems worse while trying to keep the citizenry safe?

I'm curious especially of what OWS folks think of this.

"As a country" there should be no response as protests are a local issue. As local law enforcement, the response of say, Oakland, where the police violated local ordinances to provoke the protestors - was the wrong response. I would say some locations did better. Buffalo and some other cities, I think, talked to the protestors (what a concept - actually talking). They had a dialog about what was legal and what was not and when and how to report violence. Certainly police depts need to be vigilant and prepared (since WE've spent a ton of money doing that - no one should be concerned).

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OWS is the answer to the TEA PARTY. The Tea Party wants to abide strictly by the Constitution and cut the size of the Federal Govt. and giving more power to the State. OWS wants to tear up the Constitution and rewrite it. The OWS would like to make the Govt much larger and provide a means to redistribute wealth from the super rich to each person as he needs.

This next Presidential election will dictate which direction this country goes.

I think it would be really cool to stay at home everyday and rely on the Govt to give me enough money to pay my bills with maybe just a little left over at the end of the month, lol.

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Gee, with all the money you guys have been spending on UAVs, it should be pretty easy to identify the individual causing the virus and arrest him alone, leaving the rest of the protest untouched, no? :tu:

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OWS is the answer to the TEA PARTY. The Tea Party wants to abide strictly by the Constitution and cut the size of the Federal Govt. and giving more power to the State. OWS wants to tear up the Constitution and rewrite it. The OWS would like to make the Govt much larger and provide a means to redistribute wealth from the super rich to each person as he needs.

This is complete nonsense. You have no idea what these organizations are about. I have posted some of the OWS goals here on UM previously. "The movement's goals include a more balanced distribution of income, more and better jobs, bank reform, a reduction in the influence of corporations on politics, and forgiveness of student loan debt" from the Wiki. Please do some research before you post because nearly everything you said is provably false.

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Posted (edited)

Wow, Ninja, I wrote all of that with tongue in cheek. There are 2 sides to this story. You have identified yourself as an OWS supporter. I hope Obama is re-elected and your "reforms and ideas" are implemented. The items you posted I will not read, the titles speak volumns. The only thing I foresee with your scenario is 150 Trillion in debt, or we just crash before we even get close to that mark.

Obama has a vision for this country, let's follow him.

Back to the topic, I think violence should be met with law and justice. Long live free speech, to hell with violence.

Edited by Pyridium

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What should be the reaction by government agents to violent anarchists? I'd respond with less-than-lethal technologies combined with a Summer time desert tent city internment camp waiting on their federal trials in the Fall. Let them occupy the desert and not occupy the media.

Either that or draft them into a "volunteer" branch of the military like the French Foreign Legion, and send them off to Syria to work for the UN.

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Wow, Ninja, I wrote all of that with tongue in cheek. There are 2 sides to this story. You have identified yourself as an OWS supporter. I hope Obama is re-elected and your "reforms and ideas" are implemented. The items you posted I will not read, the titles speak volumns. The only thing I foresee with your scenario is 150 Trillion in debt, or we just crash before we even get close to that mark.

Obama has a vision for this country, let's follow him.

Ninja has repeatedly said that the country can NOT crash, and cannot go bankrupt, and will not go insolvant... regardless of the amount of Debt, the current Deficit, or how much money is being brought in with taxes. He apparently thinks that we can keep running up the credit card forever and never will reach the point where it will not work anymore.

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Posted (edited)

How about we, I don't know, work to resolve the root cause of the financial problems the majority faces so that we don't have occupy movements!

Edited by Spid3rCyd3
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Why should student loan debt be "forgiven"? I was young and naive when I signed the dotted line for mine. I though my school sucked a bit but I never faulted them or anyone for the debt I had taken on. I never got a job in my field of schooling either. Ended up working for myself. I went for graphic design, now I do construction. Sure I was better but I never once thought my debt should be erased. I've been paying for my loans and the loans my parents consigned for me every single month for the last ten+ years. The whole time I've never borrowed a penny from anyone to help out. Just doing what I gotta do. On the plus side, next month, after more than a decade, I make my final payment and those loans are history!!!

If education was free, then who would teach? Oh gee, would it be government? Lots of people are lazy and suck at school when they have to pay for it themselves, I know I was at times. Point is, free gov education would be a complete waste of tax payer money. If you want to go to school, you pay for it. I know most of us don't want to pay for a bunch of youngsters who will be partying or dropping out. Make your own choices and pay for your mistakes or benefit from your achievements. My wallet isn't going to help you make that choice.

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What should be the reaction by government agents to violent anarchists? I'd respond with less-than-lethal technologies combined with a Summer time desert tent city internment camp waiting on their federal trials in the Fall. Let them occupy the desert and not occupy the media.

Either that or draft them into a "volunteer" branch of the military like the French Foreign Legion, and send them off to Syria to work for the UN.

That seems a bit totalitarian doesn't it?

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If education was free, then who would teach?

I dont see why free education = lack of teachers. Just have the government pay the tuition from the taxes it receives from the people.

From http://www.census.gov/hhes/school/data/cps/2010/tables.html we see that there are approximately 12 million students between the ages of 15-24 enrolled in post secondary institutions. From http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=76 we see that the average yearly tuition for a 4-year public post-secondary institution is approximately $15 000. That means that under $190 billion is being spent on tuition annually.

The US defense expenditure is $672 billion alone. The country with the next highest military spending is China, at $143 billion dollars. Your defense budget alone could pay for the tuition, while still having a higher military expenditure than any other country.

Or perhaps take some money from the police forces, who seem to have money to spend on UAVs for policing...

Of course, if you have a free tuition, many more students will want post secondary education, thus skyrocketing the amount payed by the US, right? Well, you can simply increase the entry requirements so that *only the best* get in. This will increase the value of the post secondary education, it'll increase its importance and it'll encourage people to do well in high school. Furthermore, all those people who go to college, get drunk and barely pass, yet still get the degree, will probably not make the cut anyway. What's there to lose?

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I dont see why free education = lack of teachers. Just have the government pay the tuition from the taxes it receives from the people.

Furthermore, all those people who go to college, get drunk and barely pass, yet still get the degree, will probably not make the cut anyway. What's there to lose?

Problem one: I don't want the government deciding the curriculum.

Problem two: I don't want government involved in education because of problem one.

Problem three: What's there to lose? Tax payer money misused, misappropriated and wasted on mediocre education or likely indoctrination.

Problem four: Folks who believe free gov education is free and think it's good idea.

Problem five: Government just needs to stay the heck out of every facet of our lives and just pave our roads, deliver my mail, defend our borders and defend the fundamental ideas of which we were founded. We don't need or want a fundamental change with a false sense of hope. What we need is a restoration and a lot less give me give me free free I'm entitled let's not keep score and hurt feelings everyone wins PC hope and change crap.

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The US defense expenditure is $672 billion alone. The country with the next highest military spending is China, at $143 billion dollars. Your defense budget alone could pay for the tuition, while still having a higher military expenditure than any other country.

Of course, if you have a free tuition, many more students will want post secondary education, thus skyrocketing the amount payed by the US, right? Well, you can simply increase the entry requirements so that *only the best* get in. This will increase the value of the post secondary education, it'll increase its importance and it'll encourage people to do well in high school. Furthermore, all those people who go to college, get drunk and barely pass, yet still get the degree, will probably not make the cut anyway.

I'd like to add that I like the fact that our military out-spends and out-powers the rest of the civilized world.

Secondly, our government these days would rather not reward an achieve and succeed attitude these days. There is so much PC wimpyness that the "only the best" get in system would be so unfair and blasphemous in their eyes they could never consider making such "cruel" requirements.

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Problem one: I don't want the government deciding the curriculum.

Problem two: I don't want government involved in education because of problem one.

Problem three: What's there to lose? Tax payer money misused, misappropriated and wasted on mediocre education or likely indoctrination.

Problem four: Folks who believe free gov education is free and think it's good idea.

Problem five: Government just needs to stay the heck out of every facet of our lives and just pave our roads, deliver my mail, defend our borders and defend the fundamental ideas of which we were founded. We don't need or want a fundamental change with a false sense of hope. What we need is a restoration and a lot less give me give me free free I'm entitled let's not keep score and hurt feelings everyone wins PC hope and change crap.

Solution one: Why do you think the government paying the tuition gives it the right to change the curriculum? It wouldn't decide the curriculum any more than it does now.

Solution two: See solution one.

Solution three: The education wouldn't be any more mediocre than it already is. If anything, it would be better, since the pool of students would open up and there would be more competition.

Solution four: Why are these people a problem?

What would it take for you to accept the idea of free education?

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Posted (edited)

Problem one: I don't want the government deciding the curriculum.

Problem two: I don't want government involved in education because of problem one.

Problem three: What's there to lose? Tax payer money misused, misappropriated and wasted on mediocre education or likely indoctrination.

Problem four: Folks who believe free gov education is free and think it's good idea.

Problem five: Government just needs to stay the heck out of every facet of our lives and just pave our roads, deliver my mail, defend our borders and defend the fundamental ideas of which we were founded. We don't need or want a fundamental change with a false sense of hope. What we need is a restoration and a lot less give me give me free free I'm entitled let's not keep score and hurt feelings everyone wins PC hope and change crap.

What if 50% of people in the US don`t want to fund aka pay for a war they know is a lie. There would be far more oversight and accountability as far as any educational system goes vs military action.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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Posted (edited)

OWS gave us a sample of how legal and proper protesting can be infiltrated and turned into acts of anarchy and violence. With the external social pressures of unemployment, rising prices and overall fear of future trends, it seems a given that protesting will increase. As a country how should we respond when groups like the Anarchists push the protests over into violence? How can cities respond without becoming too heavy handed and making the problems worse while trying to keep the citizenry safe?

I'm curious especially of what OWS folks think of this.

The question should read what should we the people do about provocateurs hired by the government. Hell, Canada uses them more times then we can possibly know about. However we have two cases where it`s proven with out a doubt we used them.

http://en.wikipedia....ent_provocateur

Edited by The Silver Thong

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Posted (edited)

The below description of anarchy reminds me of the current state of affairs and condition of the U.S.

As described below, I contend that we are in " a state of disorder due to the absence or nonrecognition of authority." We the people are becoming the absent and unrecognized authority. Governmental policy seems to be dictated by powerful " individuals", and collectives, outside of government . Not with "absolute freedom", because of the struggles between factions, and not without help from cooperatives within government.

But individual, and small collective, power has indeed become the "political ideal". Violent anarchy can manifest in unexpected and unrecognized forms!

anarchy |ˈanərkē|

noun

a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority : he must ensure public order in a country threatened with anarchy.

• absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

ORIGIN mid 16th cent.: via medieval Latin from Greek anarkhia, from anarkhos, from an- ‘without’ + arkhos ‘chief, ruler.’

Thesaurus

anarchy

noun

conditions are dangerously ripe for anarchy lawlessness, nihilism, mobocracy, revolution, insurrection, disorder, chaos, mayhem, tumult, turmoil. antonym government, order.

. . . . . As for the more familiar type of violent "anarchist" .... there are laws in place to deal with criminal and civil disruptions.

Edited by lightly

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Solution one: Why do you think the government paying the tuition gives it the right to change the curriculum? It wouldn't decide the curriculum any more than it does now.

Solution two: See solution one.

Solution three: The education wouldn't be any more mediocre than it already is. If anything, it would be better, since the pool of students would open up and there would be more competition.

Solution four: Why are these people a problem?

What would it take for you to accept the idea of free education?

To rhetorically answer your first question, what gives the government the right to provide free education? If they're 'providing' the funds you can bet they'll be setting all the rules, writing the text books and therefore setting the curriculum.

The next question is too hypothetical but I disagree with the outcome of classroom quality.

They're a problem because it's not just education they want free. They want houses free too. They dont believe in foreclosures. If they cant ay their bills they blame those theyre in debt to as if they had a gun to their head. They have a unrealistic sense of entitlement. Life isn't fair and they can't accept that.

What would it take? Private funding from individuals or organizations who willingly want to provide their money to people they feel are deserving of a prepaid education. Like scholarships. If I were wealthy enough I'd do something like that. I do not need the gov taking more money from my paycheck to educate people whom I can not afford to help. Basically, besides force, nothing will get me to accept the idea.

What if 50% of people in the US don`t want to fund aka pay for a war they know is a lie. There would be far more oversight and accountability as far as any educational system goes vs military action.

Just because I love and support our bloated bada$$ military doesn't mean I support every order they're given to execute. Be against a war if you like but support our troops and technology. Without them we may be speaking German or Japanese or burning alive in the name of Allah on our homeland.

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Just because I love and support our bloated bada$$ military doesn't mean I support every order they're given to execute. Be against a war if you like but support our troops and technology. Without them we may be speaking German or Japanese or burning alive in the name of Allah on our homeland.

Not this again pls. You guys showed up how many years late for WW I and II. You sat back while the world burned and only got involved over self interest. Damn your nation has never even won a war ever. The Canadians even burned your white house to the ground. Ok enough of that but how does it feel to think your all that and a hamsandwich to only discover your a 3 day old eggsalad sammy.

Damn rights support the troops no doubt there but don`t blindly support the government you so worship as this great military god that has done more harm then good. Your fear tactics are old and pretty much laughed at in this day and age. Go save a country thats needs saving for cryin out loud. Don`t talk to me about Afganistan and an army the US created, nore a war fought for strategic mineral rights and oil and as far as America goes, you have no footing as far as religious agendas go.

Just sayin.

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To rhetorically answer your first question, what gives the government the right to provide free education?

The nice thing about providing something for free would be that if you insist, you could still pay for tuition. The universities wont mind.

If they're 'providing' the funds you can bet they'll be setting all the rules, writing the text books and therefore setting the curriculum.

That is not necessarily the case. If thats what you oppose, then protest that. Don't object to something separate. The US government has all the power it needs to set the rules, write the textbooks and set the curriculum right now. Do you really think that the only thing stopping it from doing that is paying tuition?

I do not need the gov taking more money from my paycheck to educate people whom I can not afford to help.

The beauty of what I suggested is that the government wouldnt take any more money from your paycheck.

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Posted (edited)

Not this again pls. You guys showed up how many years late for WW I and II.

And ended it.

You sat back while the world burned and only got involved over self interest.

Everybodies always telling us to mind our own business these days. We tried.

Damn your nation has never even won a war ever.

Uhm, really? I bet your majesty would disagree. Oh, sorry, you've been independent from her for a whole 30 years.

We've won them alone and with allies.

The Canadians even burned your white house to the ground.

I hope your proud. Why such vitriol towards towards my awsome nation? You don't like when I boast about my country. Well too bad, it's awsome!

Ok enough of that but how does it feel to think your all that and a hamsandwich to only discover your a 3 day old eggsalad sammy.

That was lame.

Damn rights support the troops no doubt there but don`t blindly support the government you so worship

I don't. I said this…

Just because I love and support our bloated bada$$ military doesn't mean I support every order they're given to execute. Be against a war if you like but support our troops and technology. Without them we may be speaking German or Japanese or burning alive in the name of Allah on our homeland.

as this great military god that has done more harm then good. Your fear tactics are old and pretty much laughed at in this day and age.

So the Japanese, the Germans, Al-Queda would not have taken over our country in the absence of a great military?

Go save a country thats needs saving for cryin out loud.

The world wants to know Canada, What have you done for me lately?!

Don`t talk to me about Afganistan and an army the US created, nore a war fought for strategic mineral rights and oil and as far as America goes, you have no footing as far as religious agendas go.

Don’t talk to me about anything until you can answer the above. And it better be a heck of a lot more than what we have done.

Otherwise, what’s your beef? I don’t take issue with Canada, I’ve been to Niagra on your side, it’s nice, but you started this. Too bad you don’t like proud Americans, no apologies here. There are many of us.

Edited by Is it for real
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The nice thing about providing something for free would be that if you insist, you could still pay for tuition. The universities wont mind.

That is not necessarily the case. If thats what you oppose, then protest that. Don't object to something separate. The US government has all the power it needs to set the rules, write the textbooks and set the curriculum right now. Do you really think that the only thing stopping it from doing that is paying tuition?

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The beauty of what I suggested is that the government wouldnt take any more money from your paycheck.

Listen, the gov can't appropriate out tax funds responsibly as it is. We don't need it. Sorry if I feel accomplishment in earning and paying my own way. Actually, I'm not sorry.

No our gov doesn't have the power. Ok, I guess guns drawn any gov can do anything. But our Constitution grants no powers or authority to the federal gov when it comes to education. Education is a local and parental decision.

See my first sentence.

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Your constitution grants no power or authority when it comes to education. That wouldn't change if the government payed for education.

I agree with you that the government can't spend the tax funds responsibly as it is. That is not being debated. Infact, that's the very basis of my point. If the government is intent on taxing people the way they are, I'd like the tax funds to be put to better use and more responsibly.

Hopefully my font doesn't shrink for some reason this time.

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