Look Mama, no diamond saw

[questionmark]

And for those who rather want a logical explanation then nibblers and voodoo magic:

http://www.oocities.org/unforbidden_geology/ancient_egyptian_copper_coring_drills.html

[lilthor]

Well, as per usual, we see a lot of pointing in all directions at everything except irrefutable evidence.

The oocities site is classic with its cartoons showing hypothetical tools used but photographs showing only real ancient artifacts. How about some contemporary results to go along with those tools? Y'know...something a little more proof-ish?

Like one of these:

...only, about 5,000 years newer, please.

Edited October 4, 2013 by lilthor

[questionmark]

Well, as per usual, we see a lot of pointing in all directions at everything except irrefutable evidence.

The oocities site is classic with its cartoons showing hypothetical tools used but photographs showing only real ancient artifacts. How about some contemporary results to go along with those tools? Y'know...something a little more proof-ish?

Like one of these:

...only, about 5,000 years newer, please.

You mean like this comic ?

[lilthor]

You mean like this comic ?

Sigh. Not really.

But nevertheless, I will accept it as best effort.

[lilthor]

Egyptian reliefs show this being done, BTW.

Coring drills used by Egyptians (again, shown in actual reliefs from the AE's) can be powered with bows or by hand, depending on how much weight (again, shown in artwork) is placed on the top.

Harte

If such artwork is an accurate depiction, then it seems to me we could make, and would have made, plenty of replicas to demonstrate the technique, no? Yet there are NONE.

Heck, for all we know, those reliefs were just an earlier version of the same damn argument we're having right now...a bunch of AE squabbling about 'how the hell did a bunch of earlier AE manage to do that stuff?'

Anyhow, I'm out...have a great weekend.

[Harte]

I believe Chris Dunn did a proper demo using a copper tube drill and a piece of granite and using the sand etc that is said to have been used. Unfortunately the marks left behind where totally different, i forget the name of the program though that it was shown in.

Shame those that like to take snide pops at Mr Dunn don't have the gumption to try it themselves.

Dunn did this on "Ancient Aliens."

But... I thought you couldn't saw through granite by hand using copper? LOL

Now, according to Lithor, the fact that he can't google up a bunch of copies of AE artwork means that they couldn't have drilled granite by hand.

Harte

Edited October 4, 2013 by Harte

[Banksy Boy]

Dunn did this on "Ancient Aliens."

But... I thought you couldn't saw through granite by hand using copper? LOL

Now, according to Lithor, the fact that he can't google up a bunch of copies of AE artwork means that they couldn't have drilled granite by hand.

Harte

Who said you couldn't saw through granite by hand using copper ?

Stop making things up and skewing things to fit with what you want to read, the last 20 or so posts have said nothing or implied as such !

The experiment as well as seeing if hand tube drilling was possible, was to check the tooling marks afterwards. As you remember the program you will know full well the tooling makes left within the worked pieces where not comparable.

Anyway, that art work could be dipicting anything, who's to say what type of stone they're working on.

[kmt_sesh]

Who said you couldn't saw through granite by hand using copper ?

Stop making things up and skewing things to fit with what you want to read, the last 20 or so posts have said nothing or implied as such !

The experiment as well as seeing if hand tube drilling was possible, was to check the tooling marks afterwards. As you remember the program you will know full well the tooling makes left within the worked pieces where not comparable.

Anyway, that art work could be dipicting anything, who's to say what type of stone they're working on.

I'd have to agree with Harte, here. It was you who brought up Chris Dunn, so the response was inevitable. I have much the same reaction. Chris Dunn is on the far fringe and possesses little working understanding of ancient engineering techniques. Appearances on Ancient Aliens and similar shows should make that abundantly clear.

I mean, the man thinks the pyramids were power plants. This goes to credibility.

That's how I look at it.

[jmccr8]

Over the years that I have been a member here,it has been argued that art IS NOT a factual representation of its subject,it is art nothing more.In 3,000 yrs from now when our language is dead and people are arguing about what those odd characters mean.Will they find photos of a group of men in suits with gold spades digging a hole and think that all construction workers were well dressed and wealthy?

jmccr8

[Harte]

Who said you couldn't saw through granite by hand using copper ?

Stop making things up and skewing things to fit with what you want to read, the last 20 or so posts have said nothing or implied as such !

The experiment as well as seeing if hand tube drilling was possible, was to check the tooling marks afterwards. As you remember the program you will know full well the tooling makes left within the worked pieces where not comparable.

Anyway, that art work could be dipicting anything, who's to say what type of stone they're working on.

You only have a charlatan's word for the idea that the marks left on cores representg feed rates you know.

Core drills were filled with sand and were turned in both directions over a long period of time. Straitions on the sides of the cores represent marks left by grains of sand, not high speed drills.

Any idiot can wrap a thread around one and say "See? High feed rates!!"

Harte

[Abramelin]

Then you missed the beginning,they were using rocks.

Maybe you missed the rest. They did use steel hammerheads and steel pliers. It's part of the whole process, you cannot simply ignore it.

[questionmark]

Maybe you missed the rest. They did use steel hammerheads and steel pliers. It's part of the whole process, you cannot simply ignore it.

I did not miss the rest, and if I had to do it I would have exchanged the rocks for hammers as soon as I could too. You don't burn yourself so much.

[Abramelin]

Look, I am not a believer in AA or Cayce or Von Däniken, but when you claim you know how it was done, then show us in a video.

I DO believe it was done using socalled 'primitive' tools, but you will have to show us in some video .... to convince those 'others'.

You get my drift?

[lilthor]

Any idiot can wrap a thread around one and say "See? High feed rates!!"

Harte

This is perhaps true.

Yet I'm sure we also agree it's a very special sort of idiot who, for lack of better resources, will accept an ancient comic strip as scientific proof in lieu of physical samples.

Edited October 7, 2013 by lilthor

[jmccr8]

Hi Questionmark,

I watched the video that you provided in post #703,and the are a couple of things that don't sit right with me or maybe I'm just missing something.I don't see why they would use rocks to forge steel during the Bronze age.I have a couple of brass dead blow hammers that I use for installing or removing parts from machines.From what I understand their bronze tools were of an acceptable quality for beating/cutting and shaping rock and ore is in rock.

I could see them using a rock as an anvil, however, I am inclined to think that they may have had anvils of bronze as well due to the quality of the examples of their work that have seen in posts in this forum.

jmccr8

Hominids have bee using fire for a million years,I find it somewhat difficult to believe that it took 999,996 thousand years before thinking about personal protective equipment like leather aprons or gloves,they were at that time in history making armor for men and their horses.

[questionmark]

Hi Questionmark,

I watched the video that you provided in post #703,and the are a couple of things that don't sit right with me or maybe I'm just missing something.I don't see why they would use rocks to forge steel during the Bronze age.I have a couple of brass dead blow hammers that I use for installing or removing parts from machines.From what I understand their bronze tools were of an acceptable quality for beating/cutting and shaping rock and ore is in rock.

I could see them using a rock as an anvil, however, I am inclined to think that they may have had anvils of bronze as well due to the quality of the examples of their work that have seen in posts in this forum.

jmccr8

Hominids have bee using fire for a million years,I find it somewhat difficult to believe that it took 999,996 thousand years before thinking about personal protective equipment like leather aprons or gloves,they were at that time in history making armor for men and their horses.

The knowledge that certain rocks melt or even burn (i.e. coal) could have been around for a long time without anybody seeing a practical application for it. A good example is machines moved by steam. That it was possible was known since Heron of Alexandria built his aeropile, it took another 1700 years before somebody saw a practical application for it (Denis Papin).

Advances don't come from knowledge, they come from need, or at least that is how it was until the second half of the 20th century (since then we are doing things just because we can).

[jmccr8]

Questionmark,

Thanks for the reply,yes I agree that need is a motivator for change or development.The same can be said for protective apparel,which is why I posted my earlier comment.We can see that they were making protective armor for soldiers,and in my mind I am not convinced that they would have worked any heat treated ore bare handed as the video showed.They were already working with alloys and were familiar with the consequences of getting burnt.

With respect to using a rock to form heated ore when metal tools were already available seems a little backwards as they were not using rocks to form bronze tools were they?The quality of their worked metals doesn't support using rocks for metal work,they would not be able to achieve the same finish with rock pounders for shaping the intricate works that have been found.

jmccr8

[questionmark]

Questionmark,

Thanks for the reply,yes I agree that need is a motivator for change or development.The same can be said for protective apparel,which is why I posted my earlier comment.We can see that they were making protective armor for soldiers,and in my mind I am not convinced that they would have worked any heat treated ore bare handed as the video showed.They were already working with alloys and were familiar with the consequences of getting burnt.

With respect to using a rock to form heated ore when metal tools were already available seems a little backwards as they were not using rocks to form bronze tools were they?The quality of their worked metals doesn't support using rocks for metal work,they would not be able to achieve the same finish with rock pounders for shaping the intricate works that have been found.

jmccr8

Metal was initially worked more or less the same way they worked wood and stone before. The specific techniques evolved over time. The Can Hasan maze (probably the oldest manufactured metal find to this day dating from 5000 BC) was not even forged, it was just cast to form. Forging was not developed until about 2000 years later.

And I don't doubt that you can work heated metal with a stone as well as with an anvil, provided it is somewhat flat. Just not so frequently.

[Kahn]

At last! Sanity!

[jmccr8]

Hi Questionmark,

I took a bit of a look to see if there was some information available that would give me a better picture of how these people worked metal.I found this link and thought that I would add it to the discussion.Yes you are right in that they cast both copper and bronze,however with bronze in order to make swords or knives with bronze,after it was cast it was heated and hammered in order to harden the metal by extracting the impurities from casting.

this link also discusses stone and iron tools from Egypt

Composition and development of ancient Egyptian tools

I am adding this link just for background info on the Bronze Age.

Bronze Age -- Ancient History Encyclopedia

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I forgot to add that if you scroll down the page on the first link I gave in the previous there are other linked articles that add to the information.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

This link is one on that page it discusses alloys and working with other metals like gold and silver.

Ancient Egyptian raw materials: metals - copper, bronze, iron, gold, silver, lead

jmccr8

[questionmark]

Hi Questionmark,

I took a bit of a look to see if there was some information available that would give me a better picture of how these people worked metal.I found this link and thought that I would add it to the discussion.Yes you are right in that they cast both copper and bronze,however with bronze in order to make swords or knives with bronze,after it was cast it was heated and hammered in order to harden the metal by extracting the impurities from casting.

this link also discusses stone and iron tools from Egypt

Composition and development of ancient Egyptian tools

I am adding this link just for background info on the Bronze Age.

Bronze Age -- Ancient History Encyclopedia

jmccr8

By the time the Ancient Egyptians could be identified as such, metallurgy was way advanced already. If you hear something about "copper tools" and ancient Egypt they don't really mean copper (except some fringies who claim that contrary to the truth), they mean copper alloys (i.e. bronze, antimony copper and so on). The copper age was well over in ancient Egypt by the time the first dynasty appeared on the scene. It is even doubtful that they had a copper age (from ~7000 BC to 3500 BC in Serbia, Indus Valley and Mesopotamia) in the Egyptian culture but more likely that metal working started with bronze alloys there. Bronze alloys can be improved by forging, which, except in a few very special cases, is not true for copper.

In any case, bronze was being worked for 500 years at the time of the first dynasty and therefore well advanced. Wherein, the Egyptians were not the most advanced at the time.

[questionmark]

Viking iron production:

[jmccr8]

Hi Questionmark,

I have been busy and haven't had time to respond.Yes I agree that technology spread with the shipments of ore and alloys.I don't know how to copy and link exerts from links so I will writ down as close to possible some high-lights.

Until the New Kingdom most copper used in Egypt was seemingly minded in the eastern desert or Sinai.Country of Atika with it's great copper mines has been variously identified as the region of the Sinai Dessert(Wadi Araisah is mentioned),or the Negev(the Tinna copper mines).

Mentioned in the link the I am quoting from there is an inscription about a shipment of 12.5 tons of copper ingots.

Oldest copper in Egypt-beads and tools dating to the 4th millennium fashioned from native copper.

As for bronze the oldest artifacts date to the old kingdom,produced some copper-arsenic alloy of it's own,began to import significant amounts of bronze from Syria during the middle kingdom which reduced the amount of copper-arsenic alloy bronze and eventually replaced it.Bronze was used until well into the first millennium.

jmccr8