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danbell06

Do you believe The Bible 100%?

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Posted (edited)

If so, what lesson does this teach and what is the moral of this story?

Not only is this story utterly bizarre, but it is also absolutely disgusting. A man and his concubine are wandering the streets when they decide to seek shelter for the night, and find a man kind enough to let them stay. That night however, a group of men turn up at the door and demand to see the guest so that they may have sex with him. The owner is unwilling to let his male lodger be raped and so offers up his virgin daughter instead. However, this is still not good enough for the men, so the owner offers them his guest’s concubine and the men accept. The men brutally rape the woman and leave her on the doorstep where she bleeds to death. If that is not enough, when she is found by her husband, he chops her up into twelve pieces which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Source: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/07019.htm

Edited by danbell06

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I believe the bible zero percent. Interesting story still though.....kind of demented huh?

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Hi Alex, yeah its just one of many atrocities in The Bible, just curious as to who and how many actually follow the bible to the word.

Here's more that are probably more often, than not overlooked by a percentage of christians.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/page/bible-atrocities

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Posted (edited)

The Bible is not a credible document - not in the slightest. Anonymously edited and doctored by hundreds of individuals over the past two thousand years? Doesn't scream credibility to me.

I even made my own mother, a devout follower of the good book for years, question the bible last night with one simple question - if the bible preaches "Thou shalt not kill", then why did god convince Abraham to kill his son, Isaac, in order to prove his loyalty?

Doesn't make sense. The bible is a contradictory, demented, ill-written piece of trash that is only followed by the weak-minded. It reminds me of a Stephen King novel.

Edited by Alienated Being

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Except no-one thinks Stephen King novels are pieces of ultimate truth by which they should live their life. I hope.

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Posted (edited)

Except no-one thinks Stephen King novels are pieces of ultimate truth by which they should live their life. I hope.

Anybody who believes that they should live their life by a fact-less, base-less book should immediately consult a professional for a psychiatric evaluation.

Edited by Alienated Being

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Anybody who believes that they should live their life by a fact-less, base-less book should immediately consult a professional for a psychiatric evaluation.

The problem is that believers are not taught that it is fact-less or baseless. To them there are many "facts" in the bible. They are taught that it is wrong to second guess God in any way, so how can they ever objectively try to interpret the "facts" they believe in?

Like most things it is a cycle.

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The problem is that believers are not taught that it is fact-less or baseless. To them there are many "facts" in the bible. They are taught that it is wrong to second guess God in any way, so how can they ever objectively try to interpret the "facts" they believe in?

Like most things it is a cycle.

I am referring more-so to the believers who have completely blatant, logical scientific facts placed in front of them, but continue to deny it. It is those who need the help.

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I am referring more-so to the believers who have completely blatant, logical scientific facts placed in front of them, but continue to deny it. It is those who need the help.

I agree with you trust me.

My point though is people deny facts because their belief system is rooted so deeply into their being they tend to see facts as "tests" to their belief. That anything a non-believer says is a lie meant to take them away from their faith or in extreme cases devils work.

They definitely do need help, it comes from a childhood of being lied to in my opinion. In most cases, not all.

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Posted (edited)

Anybody who believes that they should live their life by a fact-less, base-less book should immediately consult a professional for a psychiatric evaluation.

THAT'S IT..!!!!! Now I remember who it is that you've reminded me of for so long....The SK character in The Stand..Harold Lauder :whistle: AB you are too funny when you get all serious in denouncing other people's beliefs. I respect your right to believe any way you want but man you shouldn't let it age you. Erry ting bee airee mon.... :w00t:

Edited by and then
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i do not believe the bible is factual at all,

i do however think it's an excellent book of lessons for being human

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i do not believe the bible is factual at all,

i do however think it's an excellent book of lessons for being human

If you want to pick and choose, sure. If you were to take it in it's entirety however I don't think that statement applies. If someone took everything in the bible, sucked it up and lived by it down to the letter....that person would be seriously messed up.

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THAT'S IT..!!!!! Now I remember who it is that you've reminded me of for so long....The SK character in The Stand..Harold Lauder :whistle: AB you are too funny when you get all serious in denouncing other people's beliefs. I respect your right to believe any way you want but man you shouldn't let it age you. Erry ting bee airee mon.... :w00t:

I don't know whether to feel insulted, or complimented. I feel I have learned more lessons from watching Jeopardy than I did from reading a silly book.

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Posted (edited)

Well, that particular story is fairly straightforward. It's political propaganda. The title of the book, Judges, refers to the form of intertribal political organization before the institution of the monarchy. God, as you may recall, is not too keen that there be a monarchy (1 Samuel 8:7) , but this story straightens Him out in the first line, 19: 1:

In those days, when there was no king in Israel, ...

Judges could not maintain civil order. A strong hand is needed.

However, there are kings and there are kings. The mythically significant royal house is, of course, David's. David is not the first king. He, is fact, a bandit chieftain who rises to the top of his tribe, and then seizes to the throne from Saul's successor. Which, of course, he's entitled to do, because that first king, Saul, is corrupt and illegitimate.

So, where is the rape of this story set? Gibeah. Where would Saul rule for almost four decades? Why, Gibea (1 Samuel 8:31). David ruled from down the road a piece in Jerusalem.

So, the victim who gets raped, where is she from? Bethlehem. Who else is from Bethlehem? (If you said "Jesus," OK, then why is Jesus said to have been born in Bethlehem?) David is from Bethlehem (1Samuel 17:12).

Who are the rapists? The same people who violated the sacred duty of hospitality, and refused the victim and her party refuge, Benjaminites. And Saul is... ? A Benjaminite. David was from the tribe of Judah.

So where have we heard this story before? Recall especially the detail of the man from somewhere else who offers his virgin daughter and a second woman in order to avoid violating the sacred duty of hospitality. Genesis 19: 4ff. Sodom. Lot offers his two virgin daughters. Lot's not a local boy either. The point of the Genesis story was? The destruction of Sodom was the right thing to do.

The Judges story could hardly be mistaken for a factual narrative. It repeats a story which has already been told in the Pentateuch, which story itself is an instance of a folktale motif, the outsider offering hospitality to the visitor with the locals being hostile. It is plainly political propaganda, and would have been recognized as such by its original readers, in my opinion.

Anyway, there is no global Jewish commitment to Biblical literalism, nor is there for a majority of living Christians, either. So, I suppose the answer to the thread-title question is Irish (or rabbinical), "Believe what about the Bible 100%?"

For those who are committed to Biblical literalism, this is a problem story. The problem is not, however, moral instruction, since that isn't the point of the story, even if it were taken as being a factual narrative.

Edited by eight bits
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If you want to pick and choose, sure. If you were to take it in it's entirety however I don't think that statement applies. If someone took everything in the bible, sucked it up and lived by it down to the letter....that person would be seriously messed up.

i'm not suggesting someone should do that. that's not about learning lessons, that's about obedience and fear.

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I don't know whether to feel insulted, or complimented. I feel I have learned more lessons from watching Jeopardy than I did from reading a silly book.

No, no..it's not meant as an insult. It's just that you seem really enraged almost in discussions about faith and I'm the religious one....

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WOW! Eight bits - That was good.

Hebrews 6:18 says -- God does everything twice for a strong consolation --- that's why I believe the story is real. There has to have been a real event just like it tells. But since everything is twice, it has to have a double meaning, which looks like you figured it out pretty good.

And again, since God does everything twice in the Bible -- there had to be another event where another riot crowd of homosexuals wanted a traveling male guest; but family females were offered instead. No hodge-podge collection of human storytelling stretched out and added to the previous collection through thousands of years could ever have achieved such unity and balance. Man is so egotistical he could not help but contradict the previous manuscripts. But God dictated the book. He knows He must do everything twice for our strong consolation that the story is true.

"Everything twice for a strong consolation" is one of the strongest tools of discernment God has given to His children.

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Posted (edited)

What I would like to know is this.

When something is quoted from the bible which portrays horrific behaviour either by god or by humans, we are told we must read between the lines. That it didnt really happen, that it is political propoganda, it's a made up story.

Yet,. when something apparently good occurs like a miracle, jesus healing the sick, or a virgin birth, or jesus rising from the dead, all of which are far less believable, we are told that this is the word of god and is the gospel truth therefore it must have happened!

The worst people for twisting the facts in their favour are the believers. (the word 'facts' may be inappropriate in this case as nothing in that book is fact imo)

edit....after reading Copen's post (above) I suddenly feel the need to post this one twice.......but I won't :innocent:

Edited by Englishgent
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I'm not going to say the bible is factless and baseless but it has been translated so many times and inaccurately, things left out. Then there's the fact it was written by men hundreds of years after Jesus died so how accurate could that be. I respect religious people, their choice, I'm not denying Jesus or God, I am religious, just don't go to church, I'm just saying men wrote it well after the fact.

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Read the final verse of the book of Judges, that's Chapter 21 verse 25.

The whole purpose of the Book of Judges is to the illustrate the lack of civil government and national unity and spiritual fidelity to the Lord. And that story in chapter 19, didnt you notice that there is not one innocent individual involved. The concubine is an adultress, the Levite is a drunkard and slept through her raping til dawn, etc, etc.

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I don't believe the Bible 100%. It was written by men, men who perhaps didn't have the proper vocabulary to express what it was they were trying in detail to say. I do believe in Heaven, Hell, angels and other spiritual beings. Satan, for example. And his minions. But 100% of the Bible, in my humble opinion just cannot be accurate. Plus, there are hundreds of books left over that were originally suppose to be part of the book that were left out. Why is that?

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I believe the Bible to be true. However, some of the Bible is written in poetic form, some is allegorical, there are parables, there are prophesies, there are summaries, there are forms of speech, etc. and a careful student must be aware of these literary forms so as to insure proper understanding. Context is of paramount importance in understanding any form of communication, including Scripture.

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If so, what lesson does this teach and what is the moral of this story?

Not only is this story utterly bizarre, but it is also absolutely disgusting. A man and his concubine are wandering the streets when they decide to seek shelter for the night, and find a man kind enough to let them stay. That night however, a group of men turn up at the door and demand to see the guest so that they may have sex with him. The owner is unwilling to let his male lodger be raped and so offers up his virgin daughter instead. However, this is still not good enough for the men, so the owner offers them his guest’s concubine and the men accept. The men brutally rape the woman and leave her on the doorstep where she bleeds to death. If that is not enough, when she is found by her husband, he chops her up into twelve pieces which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Source: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/07019.htm

I knew of a girl who was gang raped, so the account here doesn't seem implausible at all to me. People were in crisis and danger and did what desperate people do in desperate situtations. The idea that her husband sent her brutalized body parts to the tribes, so that they could see for themselves the injuries infliected upon her when alive, is just his way of presenting the proof of the crime before the age of cameras and mass media. He was demanding and making a call to justice for this gang rape and murder of his concubine, to which, understandably, the good men of all the communities responded to. From a cultural critical point of view, the account is very plausible and not bizarre at all.

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If so, what lesson does this teach and what is the moral of this story?

Not only is this story utterly bizarre, but it is also absolutely disgusting. A man and his concubine are wandering the streets when they decide to seek shelter for the night, and find a man kind enough to let them stay. That night however, a group of men turn up at the door and demand to see the guest so that they may have sex with him. The owner is unwilling to let his male lodger be raped and so offers up his virgin daughter instead. However, this is still not good enough for the men, so the owner offers them his guest’s concubine and the men accept. The men brutally rape the woman and leave her on the doorstep where she bleeds to death. If that is not enough, when she is found by her husband, he chops her up into twelve pieces which he sends to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Source: http://www.drbo.org/chapter/07019.htm

Of course the bible is not literal but its full of cool stories like this one. That is one of the reasons I love it. No one complains about a person reading the bible, even a child, and its full of sex violence and suggestive poetry. :whistle:

Seriously though, this is a morality tale told for a specific teaching purpose. Modern tastes are so patheticly wussy that we even edit grimms stories for children, which were also originally teaching tales designed to warn children of dangers and evils, the need to live a moral life, stick to the path of right living, and not go into the deep dark woods of humanity.

The story is not bizaare, it is just that, apparently, you are not really familiar, either with its actual content, or its context. It's not disgusting either. Unless you think that how people lived for twenty or thirty millenia was disgusting. Humanity has not had the luxury of life as you know today, for more than a few decades out of its 100000 year existence. You are not qualified to judge human behaviour from 100 years ago, let alone 5000.

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Posted (edited)

double post But just to add. i think someone was a bit harsh on steven king's writing. It is actually very good and directed very well at its target audience. Not as well written as the bible, but very stylistic, especially the tower series.Im a bit over him now, but still very much into dean koontz.

Edited by Mr Walker

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