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Waspie_Dwarf

[Merged] Did we land on the moon?

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The anti-Apollo case, on the other hand, is laughably inconsistent.

Yep.

On the one hand, you've got the necessity to have a secret programme of robotic landers that returned 300 kg off moon rocks.

Laughably inconsistent indeed when you consider that one of the major arguments used by hoax believers is that '60s technology wasn't sufficiently advance for Apollo.

Their view would make sense if we lived in a world where piloted planes were just beginning to take over from unmanned drones, where automotive technology was researching cars with drivers to take over from all those driver-less cars on the roads, and where the London Underground was seriously considering their next generation of trains having human drivers to replace the unmanned trains they currently use.

The reality is, of course, the exact opposite.

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Reality is indeed sometimes stranger than Fiction.Like the People that Believe we Hoaxed the Moon Landings pure Fiction !

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So you guys know how Neil Armstrong messed up his speech and said "one small step for man" instead of "one small step for a man"? Well if the moon landing was fake, that would mean that audio was pre recorded, so why wouldn't they have just re done that part? The fact that there are mistakes like that means that it was live and there's no way they would have risked live broadcasting something like a fake moon landing in case something went wrong. So to me that proves we really were on the moon at that time.

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turbonium you are being dishonest here. You said the following:

Apollo astronauts didn't mention the stars at all. This is simply impossible - if they had actually flown to the moon it would have been mentioned repeatedly. There were (supposedly) nine flights to the moon, but not even one reported the incredible stars?? Not a chance.

It's a huge red flag - it signals a hoax.

It doesn't matter what modifier they used. You made a claim, that claim has been proven wrong, plain and simple.

Now as for your new claim that they didn't use the correct words to describe the stars, that is really the worst case you have ever put forward.

I know your knowledge is lacking, but I would have thought even you would have realised that astronauts were selected for their flying skills and engineering/scientific capabilities NOT for their poetic abilities.

You are claiming that because not all the astronauts used the same subjective terms that this is somehow evidence. That is total nonsense. A subjective description is precisely that. If an Apollo astronaut had said "the sky is full of those hideous stars I despise so much" it would be no less a valid description of stars that another man describing them as beautiful.

You choose to emphasize "didn't mention the stars at all"

However, you don't emphasize "not even one reported the incredible stars"

So who is actually being dishonest here?

Once again, it seems I have to clarify my position for you, post by post.

My first post on it... ..

Stars would be the most amazing spectacle to see beyond our atmosphere, and beyond LEO. Billions of stars would virtually 'blanket the skies', so to speak. So to not even mention stars they are really exposing the fact that they were not there!. It's utterly ridiculous to not mention the stars.

I've been in the Nevada deserts at night, and it was one of the most magnificent, utterly beautiful moments of my entire life. I will never forget it.

Anyone who's seen it knows exactly what I'm talking about here. It's stunning.

And - this point is very important - I TOLD EVERYONE I KNEW ABOUT IT!!

Nobody could see this and not speak about it

I can only imagine just how much more incredible, how much more beautiful, the stars must appear from space.

So when I hear all of those Apollo astronauts babble on about going to the moon, without a word about the amazing stars they'd see....then I know for sure that they're lying.

My second post...

No - I'm specifically talking about the amazing stars they'd be able to see during their flight(s) to the moon and back . No sunlight, no glaring reflections to obscure one's sight. The view would be absolutely stunning.....even through a small window. That's what I compared to my experience of the countless stars in a desert sky, Or at least try to compare to.

Not mentioning the stars isn't proof of a hoax, but it reveals it as a hoax - it is that damaging to the Apollo story. And it's not like three absent-minded guys had gone on a moon mission, and somehow just forgot to mention all the stars they'd seen. Apollo had nine moon missions, (supposedly).

My third post...

What did a nameless shuttle astronaut say about stars?? Could you be any more vague? Just get to the point, if you have one..

And these quotes destroy your argument...

"Seeing the bright blue sky turning pitch-black and seeing stars appear while it is daytime is absolutely mind-blowing." - Mike Melvill, Spaceship One pilot.

http://www.iol.co.za...e-trip-1.237528

"The coolest thing for me is the experience of floating around, not feeling my weight, and hanging by a window just after sunset and WATCH THE STARS in the big black dome of the sky as the Earth moves underneath. I somehow try to find 10-15 minutes every day to do that. I think most mornings I try to continue to postpone my meals so I can do that. It's kind of fun because I have to watch where the food is going because my eyes are really glued to the outside, It is just absolutely amazing, magical, wonderful feeling to do that." - Kalpana Chawla, (on Columbia's fatal mission).

Others have made similar comments, btw.

Now, do you recall my comments about seeing stars in the desert? Much the same, yes? Yes.

Apollo didn't mention the stars, Which exposes it as a hoax. No other conclusion fits.

And my fourth post...

A view of stars () from the lunar surface is not relevant to my point. It has absolutely nothing to do with my comparison. So drop it already.

Again, people can see 'amazing' stars while in space....

Seeing the bright blue sky turning pitch-black and seeing stars appear while it is daytime is absolutely mind-blowing." - Mike Melvill, Spaceship One pilot.

http://www.iol.co.za...e-trip-1.237528

"The coolest thing for me is the experience of floating around, not feeling my weight, and hanging by a window just after sunset and WATCH THE STARS in the big black dome of the sky as the Earth moves underneath. I somehow try to find 10-15 minutes every day to do that. I think most mornings I try to continue to postpone my meals so I can do that. It's kind of fun because I have to watch where the food is going because my eyes are really glued to the outside, It is just absolutely amazing, magical, wonderful feeling to do that." - Kalpana Chawla, (on Columbia's fatal mission).

Apollo is being compared while in LEO, and while en route to the moon, and during its return to Earth NOT FROM THE LUNAR SURFACE!!

Apollo astronauts didn't mention the stars at all. This is simply impossible - if they had actually flown to the moon it would have been mentioned repeatedly. There were (supposedly) nine flights to the moon, but not even one reported the incredible stars?? Not a chance.

It's a huge red flag - it signals a hoax.

MY FIRST SENTENCE: "Stars would be the most amazing spectacle to see"

Amazing spectacle.

I

"There's a couple of nice stars out here" - not amazing

"There's a lot of stars out there right now" - not amazing

"Oh, beautiful, beautiful. Look at all those white stars" - so far, it's the only one even close to amazing,

As for being subjective,

I like to see a beautiful sunset. But perhaps a sunset is feared, or considered to be ugly ..say, in Pygmy culture, It is a subjective matter.

Same as your Apollo guy seeing billions of stars as grotesque, ugly. It's one's personal view.

But nobody would ignore or shrug off seeing the countless stars.

Apollo fails a reality check, as usual.

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Apollo fails a reality check, as usual.

Like your claim that no one can bend their knees in a pressurized spacesuit. :lol: Reality is, you have been proven wrong time after time after time and to sum that up, you have no case. :no:

Edited by skyeagle409

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Reality is indeed sometimes stranger than Fiction.Like the People that Believe we Hoaxed the Moon Landings pure Fiction !

The claims of the moon hoax folks are based on pure fiction.

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Hoaxers use what I call "heads I win / tails you lose" logic:

No errors - "It's too perfect! It's faked!"

Errors - "They put them in to fool everyone. It's faked!"

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You choose to emphasize "didn't mention the stars at all"

However, you don't emphasize "not even one reported the incredible stars"

I didn't need. You have made two different claims here. There is no ambiguity in "no stars at all". You have been proven wrong on that claim, your failure to acknowledge that is dishonest.

Given that the stars WERE mentioned then HOW they were described remains purely subjective. They saw stars, they described stars but they didn't describe them the way you think they should have done. It's a non-argument. The only thing failing the reality test is you.

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Whats that old saying ?" Those that know need not explain to Those that Think they Know everything" ITs Always those that THink they know that never really know. So much for thinking too much !

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And these quotes destroy your argument...

"The coolest thing for me is the experience of floating around, not feeling my weight, and hanging by a window just after sunset and WATCH THE STARS in the big black dome of the sky as the Earth moves underneath. I somehow try to find 10-15 minutes every day to do that. I think most mornings I try to continue to postpone my meals so I can do that. It's kind of fun because I have to watch where the food is going because my eyes are really glued to the outside, It is just absolutely amazing, magical, wonderful feeling to do that." - Kalpana Chawla, (on Columbia's fatal mission).

(Around 1:17 mark of video link..)

"Just after sunset", huh? So he couldn't see them except in the shadow of the Earth? I think that proves our point that stars couldn't be readily seen on the dayside or during the translunar coast.

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You choose to emphasize "didn't mention the stars at all"

However, you don't emphasize "not even one reported the incredible stars"

So who is actually being dishonest here?

Once again, it seems I have to clarify my position for you, post by post.

My first post on it... ..

My second post...

My third post...

And my fourth post...

MY FIRST SENTENCE: "Stars would be the most amazing spectacle to see"

Amazing spectacle.

I

"There's a couple of nice stars out here" - not amazing

"There's a lot of stars out there right now" - not amazing

"Oh, beautiful, beautiful. Look at all those white stars" - so far, it's the only one even close to amazing,

As for being subjective,

I like to see a beautiful sunset. But perhaps a sunset is feared, or considered to be ugly ..say, in Pygmy culture, It is a subjective matter.

Same as your Apollo guy seeing billions of stars as grotesque, ugly. It's one's personal view.

But nobody would ignore or shrug off seeing the countless stars.

Apollo fails a reality check, as usual.

You do realise that Apollo was preceded by Gemini and Mercury. And that many people were involved in all programs. Buzz Aldrin was instrumental in making the moon landing possible with his effortless EVA. They had seen this before you know.

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Oh, I see. Turbo bases his "FAKED!" claim on the fact that trained test pilots, focused on mission objectives and getting home safely, said "Wow - great view" instead of "OMFG! Look at it! IT'S &*#$$$ AMAZING! It the greatest thing anyone has ever seen!!!!!!".

Maybe Turbs should be reminded that Frank Borman, when the Apollo 8 crew were going around the Moon for the first time, told his crewmates to stop looking out the window and get back to work.

Or geologist 'Jack' Schmitt, when told by Apollo 17 commander to "... take a minute and look at the Earth..."from the lunar surface because he owed it to himself after all the hard work, replied: "If you've seen one Earth, you've seen 'em all" because he wanted to concentrate on the reason he was up there for... lunar geology.

Still, Turbs never lets facts get in the way of their arguements.

Edited by Obviousman
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I didn't need. You have made two different claims here. There is no ambiguity in "no stars at all". You have been proven wrong on that claim, your failure to acknowledge that is dishonest.

Given that the stars WERE mentioned then HOW they were described remains purely subjective. They saw stars, they described stars but they didn't describe them the way you think they should have done. It's a non-argument. The only thing failing the reality test is you.

I've explained what I meant, and shown you my posts to back it up. And, if you really think I made two different claims, then you I could say you're being 'dishonest' by not mentioning it ever before!

Can we just deal with the specific issue I've raised, and drop the bs accusations?

It's hardly a "non-argument".

They are first-hand accounts of Apollo crew, ISS/Shuttle crew, SpaceShipOne crew. They are reliable witnesses, surely!

When they describe something, they are considered to be accurate, valid accounts.

It's not that "they didn't describe them the way" I "think they should have". they didn't describe them anything like the way non-Apollo crews did!/b].

Describing it with superlatives (ie: amazing, incredible), with awe and wonder. The unforgettable experience.

Like going to the Grand Canyon, and the best description of it is "I see a few big rocks down there"

.

Or like describing Niagara Falls with 'It's...it's full of water"

Get the point here?

To view countless stars would be like viewing the Grand Canyon and Niagara Falls at the same time. It is jaw-dropping, a spectacular experience. Even words like 'amazing', or 'incredible'' can't do justice to such an expereince. But it's the closest we have to it.

If a group of people describe the Grand Canyon as 'some big rocks', would you believe they were really there? If it was the only description of it, perhaps you would. But if many others all described the Grand Canyon as incredible, spectacular, an unforgettable experience....you'd know something smells fishy.

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Oh, I see. Turbo bases his "FAKED!" claim on the fact that trained test pilots, focused on mission objectives and getting home safely, said "Wow - great view" instead of "OMFG! Look at it! IT'S &*#$$$ AMAZING! It the greatest thing anyone has ever seen!!!!!!".

Maybe Turbs should be reminded that Frank Borman, when the Apollo 8 crew were going around the Moon for the first time, told his crewmates to stop looking out the window and get back to work.

Or geologist 'Jack' Schmitt, when told by Apollo 17 commander to "... take a minute and look at the Earth..."from the lunar surface because he owed it to himself after all the hard work, replied: "If you've seen one Earth, you've seen 'em all" because he wanted to concentrate on the reason he was up there for... lunar geology.

Still, Turbs never lets facts get in the way of their arguements.

Yes, all the Apollo crews were so completely focused on their tasks, they didn't have a few seconds to waste on looking out the windows! Good one.

I guess they did on Apollo 8, right? So they must have all sorts of reports about seeing all the amazing stars?

And the other guy who sees the Earth? So what?

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They are first-hand accounts of Apollo crew, ISS/Shuttle crew, SpaceShipOne crew. They are reliable witnesses, surely!

There also reliable accounts of Apollo astronauts walking and driving on the moon.

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There also reliable accounts of Apollo astronauts walking and driving on the moon.

A reliable witness would be a person who reports seeing a few stars. It is also a reliable indicator of a witness who is not beyond LEO..

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A reliable witness would be a person who reports seeing a few stars. It is also a reliable indicator of a witness who is not beyond LEO..

The Apollo astronauts were reliable witnesses.

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Wow, had to catch up on this one while I was away on a mission for the Army.

I mean really, were the stars the actual reason why we went to the moon and not the moon itself? The astronauts were experts at their particular job, not expert astronomers. Their mission was the moon for heavens sakes. I don't blame them for not being able to describe how the stars look in space, as it is not a priority.

Jesus Turbs, this must be the most ignorant topic you have brought up yet.

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Jesus Turbs, this must be the most ignorant topic you have brought up yet.

Oh just you wait... it goes in cycles with him. He's discussed this before, and will discuss it again after he figures enough time has passed that people have forgotten when he posted these ludicrous ideas this time around.

Cz

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Yes we seem to have a few peep`s in the Good Old U of M now days ! I can just hear Mid right now Screaming at the Top of his lungs from the Out there in Star Land ! He wound no doubt be trying as only Mid could do to relate the importance of our Great Space program NASA. ANd all the wonderful men& Women that make and made NASA what it was,and still can be today!

People Like BabeRuth,Zoser,Turb`s, not to mention any names. Will always be looking for the easy explanation and way outta a good discussion !

I for one know for a fact that Man did walk upon the Moon and Will Indeed go back to the Moon someday ! ANd really dont need to show or prove it to anyone. Its just Knowledge ! Actual Knowledge,and Facts. So All you C.T`s and Skeptics Go buy some Land in Florida I hear theres a few good lots left to Sink into ! :tu::whistle:

Edited by DONTEATUS
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Jesus Turbs, this must be the most ignorant topic you have brought up yet.

And actually, to be clear, the most ignorant topic turbs has brought up in the past was the "I can see the director's chair, guy with a beard, and crew person's shirt sleeve peeking out from behind a curtain in the video clip of the side of Apollo 12 LEM"... at least I think it was Apollo 12. It hurts my head to think down to the level needed to actually believe that tripe of his, so I try not to do it very often, or at all...

Regardless, that one is, to my knowledge, quite rightly the single most ignorant thing he's brought up, at least on this board....

Cz

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A reliable witness would be a person who reports seeing a few stars. It is also a reliable indicator of a witness who is not beyond LEO..

They did report stars, you feel the descriptions were not flamboyant enough.

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They did report stars, you feel the descriptions were not flamboyant enough.

A large hammer can be used to make anyone see stars, even astronauts.

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This idea that there was a massive US conspiracy to make it look like men had gone to the moon was new to me and when I saw it I ignored it and didn't follow the thread. I did get caught up in it once on another thread and I fear got a little rude about it when I saw where he was going.

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A large hammer can be used to make anyone see stars, even astronauts.

I bet it would be handy helping cure CT'ers as well! :w00t:

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