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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

Thread continued from: Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood (Original)

About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

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I think this is an interesting post too:

See my note about this from earlier, we're in the process of archiving topics that are too large as it looks like these are the main cause of the server load issues responsible for the delays you are describing.

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Posted (edited)

I think the closest Dutch word to BISÁWD is 'bezwijken' or 'to succumb'.

... you'll notice - and I think even understandable for those who can't read Dutch - that all forms in Old nordic languages have a -K- at the end, not a -D- or a -T- .

No, (be-) zwijken is a totally different word.

It appears in OLB too.

THA MODELÁSA SKILUN ÀMMAR SWIKA VNDER HJAR ÀJN LÉD.

The D at the end of BISAWD is because it is past tense.

Edited by Otharus

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Posted (edited)

Oh boy, we have discussed about Delahaye alright!

But you should not forget that this Lumka-makia is supposed to be located in East Flyland.

And if "Albis" is the original or older name of the French river Aa, then I think we can forget about it.

I know Otharus has Joël Vandemaele's book about the OLB, and Vandemaele based his interpretation of the OLB on Delahaye's theories.

Do you have this book, Van Gorp, and does he say where East Flyland is located? Or Lumka-makia?

.

No, I don't have that book of Vandemaele. I don't know what is written there.

But I just wanted to mention that the etymology of the word 'Flanders' is coming from Flie-landern, and we also have West and East Flie-landers.

Vleteren the same, and in the middle you have Linde and above Oeren. So for me it isn't that strange to mention.

Off course not having said that those terms are equal to the West- and East Flylands of OLB, but same terminology is being used.

I feel I don't have to mention Delahaye to much, so I won't. What I just described is not related to him.

But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'. In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.

Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?

Lumka makes me think of Loo-meke, small Loo. So Lumka-makia -> place of a small forest on an emerged sand-hill.

To stay in the area -> Looberghe could be a candidate :-) We can be inventive to amuse ourselves no?

Cheers.

Edited by Van Gorp

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Posted (edited)

I think this is an interesting post too:

In your post #11638 you quoted much more than needed.

You could save server space and scrolling time by cutting those quotes.

Edited by Otharus

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Posted (edited)

In your post #11638 you quoted much more than needed.

You could save server space and scrolling time by cutting those quotes.

You are right, but it was a 'hit and run' post (like many of mine).

Someone banged at my door, and so I posted without editing out the unnecessary stuff.

Be glad you now live in that tiny village in Friesland.

Man, I wish I was back in the Peruvian jungle.

You hunt for food, and that is your main concern.

For the rest, it was talking at campfires, listening to the most weird stories I ever heard, eying up the women loving your 'blue eyes', smoking scheise that made your brains melt, laughing at jokes or crazy stories, and so on.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'. In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.

Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?

Cheers.

Yes, good point Van Gorp - I have admitted defeat of an etymology I thought was better, based on the use of the word throughout the OLB in another etymology. It won't be both.

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About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

After the great flood of which my father wrote an account, there came many Jutlanders and Letlanders out of the Baltic, or bad sea.

Aftre grâte flod hwêr vr min tât skrêven heth, wêron fêlo Juttar aend Lêtne mith ebbe uta Balda jefta kvade sê fored

I imagine the Baltic was seen as horrendous after this massive flooding incident and may have been named the Balda Sea at that point if Otharus is right in connecting the words.

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Posted (edited)

I might have missed this previously but I only just realised that Leeuwarden was established and named c. 825.

I think this is where it's mentioned in the OLB: as Lindwerd.

My father has written how the Lindaoorden and Liudgaarden were destroyed. Lindahem is still lost, the Lindaoorden partially, and the north Lindgaarden are still concealed by the salt sea. The foaming sea washes the ramparts of the castle. As my father has mentioned, the people, being deprived of their harbour, went away and built houses inside the ramparts of the citadel; therefore that bastion is called Lindwerd. The sea-people say Linwerd, but that is nonsense.

The name "Leeuwarden" (or old spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove, the most important one of the three villages that later merged into one, in the early 9th century (Villa Lintarwrde' c. 825)

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

Original name was Nijehove - Nije is possible new and hove - maybe like lodge/place - haven

Old Frisian hovia=lodge

So, Lindwerd as Nijehove was really new lodgings - which actually fits the description given in the OLB very well, perfect actually - it was new lodge/home/haven after the flooding.

Leeuwarden's name therefore does not seem to have been Lindwerd or Lintarwrde until as said 825 although the name for it (Nijehove) does represent the description given in the OLB.

My feeling is constantly this:

The OLB is recently written, but compiled of information that is true but not original, so written in a form of later times.

Nothing says that they didn't move into Nijehove after the terrible flood in Frisia - the name though, would not have been Lindwerd until later, even though the information given by Konered is possibly correct. It's certainly an intriging puzzle.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Otharus, this one's for you...

The Hebrew etymology of balderdash is, of course, a bad joke, but it brings out the fact that in several languages words designating various undignified concepts begin with bal(d)-. In Dutch we see baldadig “wanton” (an adjective formed from the noun meaning “evil, baleful deed”). Slavic has a long list of such words, the most interesting of which is Russian balda “fool” (stress on the second syllable), because Pushkin wrote The Tale of the Priest and His Workman Balda (he wrote it in exile, in a place called Boldino — stress on the first syllable; music lovers may have heard Shostakovich’s early suite on this tale, an analog of Richard Strauss’s Till Eulenspiegel’s Merry Pranks). A folklore character called a fool always turns out to be exceptionally smart. In Pushkin’s tale, Balda (which is used as the workman’s proper name) outwits his greedy employer (the priest) and a whole family of devils. One gets the impression that the syllable bald serves more or less the same purpose all over the map. Many such words, including Balda, pose problems and have been with some hesitation referred to Turkic, but at least some of them may be native.

~~~

How can balderdash become a word of a “known” origin? This will happen if a document turns up in which a certain bartender tells a story about how he coined the name for the swill he served to his guests. Ideally the bartender’s own name should also be Balderdash. A story recounting the birth of Kladderdatsch exists, but a book titled The Balding Bartender’s Memoirs with the information we need has not been found. Another good thing would be to discover a local English verb balder.

http://blog.oup.com/2012/02/balderdash-word-origin-etymology/

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Posted (edited)

No, I don't have that book of Vandemaele. I don't know what is written there.

But I just wanted to mention that the etymology of the word 'Flanders' is coming from Flie-landern, and we also have West and East Flie-landers.

Vleteren the same, and in the middle you have Linde and above Oeren. So for me it isn't that strange to mention.

Off course not having said that those terms are equal to the West- and East Flylands of OLB, but same terminology is being used.

I feel I don't have to mention Delahaye to much, so I won't. What I just described is not related to him.

But what strikes me is that I haven't read about the second part of the assumed place name 'makia'. In OLB it is used often to describe to verb 'to make'/become.

Don't you think it has also a meaning in Lumka-makia?

Lumka makes me think of Loo-meke, small Loo. So Lumka-makia -> place of a small forest on an emerged sand-hill.

To stay in the area -> Looberghe could be a candidate :-) We can be inventive to amuse ourselves no?

Cheers.

From what I read "Vlaanderen" has a totally different etymology (see Wiki), and nothing like "Flielanden". I found "Flielanden" on exactly one site which has some other weird theories too.

And it strikes you you didn't read about "makia"??

Well, then you read too fast lol. It's either the Frisian "makia" meaning "to make" or it means "sword" (see Vimose, Fyn island, Denmark, close to Odense, the traditional birthplace of Odin/Wodan).

And Lemmer, which I think is Lumka-makia, means 'worker who helps with the slaughter of whales" / "part of a knife"/ "part of a sword" / "bare blade" / "wick of a lamp or candle".

I also posted about both a Danish and Frisian word "Lumsk" which means sly, cunning, treacherous.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

After the great flood of which my father wrote an account, there came many Jutlanders and Letlanders out of the Baltic, or bad sea.

Aftre grâte flod hwêr vr min tât skrêven heth, wêron fêlo Juttar aend Lêtne mith ebbe uta Balda jefta kvade sê fored

I imagine the Baltic was seen as horrendous after this massive flooding incident and may have been named the Balda Sea at that point if Otharus is right in connecting the words.

But that flood Konered talks about happened (also) in the North Sea:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW

(,,,)

This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Or should all these placenames be located at the coast of the Baltic?

=

It's the Cimbrian flood and it drove the inhabitants of Denmark to the south, and brought them in contact with the Romans.

Personally I think it happened in the North Sea, not the Baltic, and I know we have talked about this long a go.

++++

EDIT:

De zeventiende eeuwse Friese geschiedschrijver Chr. Schotanus schreef over de Kimbrische vloed;

“Omtrend den jare nae de scheppinghe der werelt 360 ofte 350 voor de geboorte Jesu Christi is door stormen en tempgeesten een schricklijke watervloed over alle zee-custen van Duytsland gelopen, die veel vee ende mensen heeft vernielt.Dit eerste en oudste vloet, daer men gedachtenis af kan hebben, die oock so men meent, alle eylanden, aan de Friessche custen , van’t vaste land afgescheurt en vele binnenwateren ende meeren gemaekt heeft, daer de monden van de rivieren, voorhenen, met enghe gaten in ze uitliepen.

The 17th century Frisian historian Chr. Schotanus wrote this about the Cymbrian Flood:

About the year 360 or 350 before the birth of Jesus Christ a terrible flood, caused by violent storms, hit all the sea coasts of Germany, a flood that destroyed many cattle and people. This first and oldest flood which can be remembered, could also have ripped all the islands on the Frisian coast from the mainland, and have created many inlets and lakes because formerly the mouths of the rivers ended up in them through narrow entrances.

http://www.lutebouwer.com/stormvloeden.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Be glad you now live in that tiny village in Friesland.

It was the best move I ever made.

You helped me make that decision end of december, remember?

If you want to escape the big city for a few days, you are welcome.

I have a guest-room.

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The name "Leeuwarden" (or old spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove...

The problem with statements like this, is that they are actually talking about the oldest known written record.

The name can be much older than that.

Imagine that in an area where many aboriginals live, they now decide to name a park or lake after an ancient story that was thus far only transmitted orally, generation to generation, and was never before written down. Suddenly the name appears on maps and on the internet. Did that name first came into use only now? No, we just don't know.

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Otharus, this one's for you...

... it brings out the fact that in several languages words designating various undignified concepts begin with bal(d)-.

... Slavic has a long list of such words, the most interesting of which is Russian balda “fool”

First thought I had when I read your post was

"Aha! That's why Brett Easton Ellis named the character of his American Psycho Christian Bale!"

But no, that's the name of the actor who played him (brilliantly).

The character's name was Patrick Bateman.

A folklore character called a fool always turns out to be exceptionally smart.

LOL that made my day.

Thanks!

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But that flood Konered talks about happened (also) in the North Sea:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW

(,,,)

This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Or should all these placenames be located at the coast of the Baltic?

=

It's the Cimbrian flood and it drove the inhabitants of Denmark to the south, and brought them in contact with the Romans.

Personally I think it happened in the North Sea, not the Baltic, and I know we have talked about this long a go.

++++

EDIT:

De zeventiende eeuwse Friese geschiedschrijver Chr. Schotanus schreef over de Kimbrische vloed;

“Omtrend den jare nae de scheppinghe der werelt 360 ofte 350 voor de geboorte Jesu Christi is door stormen en tempgeesten een schricklijke watervloed over alle zee-custen van Duytsland gelopen, die veel vee ende mensen heeft vernielt.Dit eerste en oudste vloet, daer men gedachtenis af kan hebben, die oock so men meent, alle eylanden, aan de Friessche custen , van’t vaste land afgescheurt en vele binnenwateren ende meeren gemaekt heeft, daer de monden van de rivieren, voorhenen, met enghe gaten in ze uitliepen.

The 17th century Frisian historian Chr. Schotanus wrote this about the Cymbrian Flood:

About the year 360 or 350 before the birth of Jesus Christ a terrible flood, caused by violent storms, hit all the sea coasts of Germany, a flood that destroyed many cattle and people. This first and oldest flood which can be remembered, could also have ripped all the islands on the Frisian coast from the mainland, and have created many inlets and lakes because formerly the mouths of the rivers ended up in them through narrow entrances.

http://www.lutebouwe...tormvloeden.htm

.

Right, so you think the Balda Sea translated as Baltic, where Jutlanders and Letlanders flee from, is not the Baltic?

I hardly think so.

Balda could be BOLD sea, not really bad, because bold can mean frightful, dangerous as well, which is what I think 'bad' could mean in the wording of the OLB.

[/i]bold (adj.) dictionary.gif O.E. beald (W.Saxon), bald (Anglian) "bold, brave, confident, strong," from P.Gmc. *balthaz (cf. O.H.G. bald "bold, swift," in names such as Archibald, Leopold, Theobald; Goth. balþei "boldness;" O.N. ballr "frightful, dangerous"), perhaps from PIE *bhol-to- suffixed form of *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell" (see bole). Old French and Provençal baut "bold," Italian baldo "bold, daring, fearless" are Germanic loan-words.[/i] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bold

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Posted (edited)

It was the best move I ever made.

You helped me make that decision end of december, remember?

If you want to escape the big city for a few days, you are welcome.

I have a guest-room.

Yes, I do remember.

Well,thanks, I will think about it. It's possible I'll have 'to run' soon....

--

Btw: I have the link to the now archived first part of this thread added to my signature for easy reference.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Right, so you think the Balda Sea translated as Baltic, where Jutlanders and Letlanders flee from, is not the Baltic?

I hardly think so.

Balda could be BOLD sea, not really bad, because bold can mean frightful, dangerous as well, which is what I think 'bad' could mean in the wording of the OLB.

[/i]bold (adj.) dictionary.gif O.E. beald (W.Saxon), bald (Anglian) "bold, brave, confident, strong," from P.Gmc. *balthaz (cf. O.H.G. bald "bold, swift," in names such as Archibald, Leopold, Theobald; Goth. balþei "boldness;" O.N. ballr "frightful, dangerous"), perhaps from PIE *bhol-to- suffixed form of *bhel- (2) "to blow, swell" (see bole). Old French and Provençal baut "bold," Italian baldo "bold, daring, fearless" are Germanic loan-words.[/i] http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=bold

No, I think they fled for the storms on the North Sea and the resulting floods on the Danish coast.

The storms, floods (and maybe earthquakes?) that Frethorik described happened in the North Sea area:

THE WRITINGS OF FRÊTHORIK AND WILJOW

This happened 1888 years after the submersion of Atland (= 306 BC)

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bo

Well, that would have included the sea between Denmark and Norway/Sweden.

Btw: that event also included erupting volcanos. Where are the volcanos in the Baltic area?

The only ones that could have erupted are in Iceland, but I really don't know if they erupted in 306 BC.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

Vaderlandsche geographie: of, Nieuwe tegenwoordige staat en hedendaagse historie der Nederlanden, Volume 1,Deel 2 - Willem Albert Bachiene / 1791

page 754

http://books.google....anderen&f=false

That page is about that same flood. What's interesting here is that according to the writer the MIDDELZEE is the sea that connects the North Sea with the Zuiderzee (now IJsselmeer), between West-Friesland (in the province of Noordholland) and the province of Friesland.

So now we have a three "Middle Seas" (OLB: Middel Se)... this one, the former one in the province of Friesland (reclaimed area), and the Mediterranean.

post-18246-0-28401500-1337242206_thumb.j

.

Edited by Abramelin

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... that tiny village in Friesland.

This 80s commercial was filmed here:

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Posted (edited)

With the flood Abe, it could be both, it obviously affected coastal Northern Germany and Frisia but also was very damaging in the Baltic, where the people fleed from, so I agree it was also in the North Sea but the statement in the OLB referring to the Balda Sea means the Baltic.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Vaderlandsche geographie: of, Nieuwe tegenwoordige staat en hedendaagse historie der Nederlanden, Volume 1,Deel 2 - Willem Albert Bachiene / 1791

page 754

http://books.google....anderen&f=false

That page is about that same flood. What's interesting here is that according to the writer the MIDDELZEE is the sea that connects the North Sea with the Zuiderzee (now IJsselmeer), between West-Friesland (in the province of Noordholland) and the province of Friesland.

So now we have a three "Middle Seas" (OLB: Middel Se)... this one, the former one in the province of Friesland (reclaimed area), and the Mediterranean.

post-18246-0-28401500-1337242206_thumb.j

.

So which one is this one? The reclaimed area one?

The Middelzee:

The Middelzee (Dutch for "middle sea"; West Frisian: Middelsee) was the estuary mouth of the River Boorn (West Frisian: Boarn) in the province of Friesland. It ran from as far south as Sneek northward to the Wadden Sea and marked the border between the main Frisian regions of Westergoa and Eastergoa. Other historical names for the Middelzee include Bordine, Bordaa, Borndiep, Boerdiep, and Bordena. Gradually the Middelzee silted up and the lands that were thus formed were called the nije lannen or "new lands". The fertile sea clay bottom is mostly used as meadow land. The border between Eastergoa and Westergoa in the former Middlezee is now drained by the River Zwette (West Frisian: Swette) which runs from Sneek to Ljouwert (Leeuwarden), but which once reached the southern edge of Het Bildt

http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/Places/District/812832

.

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So which one is this one? The reclaimed area one?

The Middelzee:

The Middelzee (Dutch for "middle sea"; West Frisian: Middelsee) was the estuary mouth of the River Boorn (West Frisian: Boarn) in the province of Friesland. It ran from as far south as Sneek northward to the Wadden Sea and marked the border between the main Frisian regions of Westergoa and Eastergoa. Other historical names for the Middelzee include Bordine, Bordaa, Borndiep, Boerdiep, and Bordena. Gradually the Middelzee silted up and the lands that were thus formed were called the nije lannen or "new lands". The fertile sea clay bottom is mostly used as meadow land. The border between Eastergoa and Westergoa in the former Middlezee is now drained by the River Zwette (West Frisian: Swette) which runs from Sneek to Ljouwert (Leeuwarden), but which once reached the southern edge of Het Bildt

http://www.ancientsi...District/812832

.

Wow! You post with "invisible ink"

With 'this one' I obviously meant the one I descrbed according to that 18th century book, and of which I attached a picture.

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With the flood Abe, it could be both, it obviously affected coastal Northern Germany and Frisia but also was very damaging in the Baltic, where the people fleed from, so I agree it was also in the North Sea but the statement in the OLB referring to the Balda Sea means the Baltic.

I have no problems at all with the Balda Sea being the Baltic Sea.

But the OLB suggests it's called 'bad' or 'angry' (BALDA, see Otharus' posts in part I of this thread) because of what happened in the Baltic.

But DID something happen in the Baltic Sea that caused it to get a new name?

Where are those volcanoes that erupted 306 BC?

Is there proof of massive flooding around the Baltic dating from 306 BC?

I think there is some sort of proof of flood happening around that time here in the Netherlands: it was formerly called the Dunkirk III Transgression (until the scientists dropped that theory, not the floodings).

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Posted (edited)

The OLB can be read in different ways, depending on one-his pre-assumptions.

We have seen how Alewyn found it hard to accept that the Fryan culture was matriarchal (led by mothers), because he had imagined differently.

Jensma at some point must have gotten the idea that OLB is actually about a 19th century religious conflict, and that much of it was ment to be funny. Many of his footnotes are: "grappig bedoeld" (pun intended).

Example (at page 146 line 12-13; my paraphrased translation):

"Kauch ... Kâp - not totally clear; possibly the (farfetched) joke is in the difference between the German 'kauf' = buy, purchase, deal (Dutch: koop) and Oldfrisian 'kâp' which means the same, and therefore the joke is, that the Chauci derive their name from the Frisian word for 'buy'."

People tend to see the things they want to see, and in extreme cases they even see things that are not there.

I ran into a hallucination or delusional perception (?) from Jensma that I want to point out, just for the record.

(I sometimes use this forum as a notebook, for future reference.)

In general, his transcription is an improvement to the one by Ottema, but in this case he has corrupted a word that was correct.

[page 146, line 17-27]

JUTTAR.jpg

ÀFRE GRÁTE FLOD HWÉR.VR MIN TÁT SKRÉVEN HETH.

WÉRON FÉLO JUTTAR ÀND LÉTNE

MITH EBBE UT.A BALDA JEFTA KWADE SÉ FORED.

BI KÁT HIS GAT DRÉVON HJA IN HJARA KÁNA

MITH ÍSE VPPA THA DÉNE.MARKA FÀST

ÀND THÉR.VP SEND HJA SITTEN BILÉWEN.

THÉR NÉRON NARNE NÉN MÀNNISKA AN.T SJOCHT.

THÉR VMBE HÀVON HJA THÀT LÁND INT.

NÉI HJARA NÔME HÀVON HJA THÀT LAND JUTTAR.LÁND HÉTEN.

Where the text clearly has "INT", Jensma transcribed "IVT", and he translated "gejut" (jutted = beach-combed).

"Daarom hebben zij het land gejut."

(Therefore they jutted/ beach-combed the land.)

In the fragment (see scan) "JUTTAR" is clearly both times spelled with an I-dot (J) and a round U, not a V.

Ottema's transcription and translation were correct:

"Thêrvmbe håvon hja thåt lând int"

"Daarom hebben zij het land in bezit genomen"

Sandbach:

"so they took possession of the land"

INT = geïnd = ingenomen = in bezit genomen; past perfect of verb 'innen' = to take possession of

Edited by Otharus

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