Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Abramelin]

Practically independent of Hebrew/Greek/Latin, the Dietsch (Tuytsch, Teuts) language has his own rich history and need to be studied accordingly as going further in time than Greek/Latin.

This is by many now approached as naïve. I think that can be pretty naïve also :-)

Then you should show us ancient sources at least as old as Roman or Greek sources that prove your point.

They have found Latin and Greek manuscripts/papyrusses dating to 2000 or more BP

You have nothing to show us that's that old.

.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Ok, a summary of my reasons why I think the OLB is not what it is supposed to be, an authentic MS of ancient European history.

Thank you for the list, Abe.

Can you point out the (max. 3) arguments that are most convincing in your opinion?

I will focus on commenting to them for now.

[Otharus]

So maybe a short description of some recent researchers...

That looks like an interesting source too.

Can you name the title, author and year of publication?

[Van Gorp]

That looks like an interesting source too.

Can you name the title, author and year of publication?

Hi Otharus,

From "Kelten En De Nederlanden Van Prehistorie Tot Heden", door Lauran Toorians.

Published by Peeters, Bondgenoten Laan 153, Leuven.

The version on google ebooks I googled on for the quote is not complete for all pages.

Maybe a full version is available on others places or even at the bookshop in Bondgenotenlaan? I don't know, the shop is the one with the low windows.

Abe,

You googled also on this one I think.

For you're previous posts: I don't feel I have to show you anything if you don't mind (and if you mind, i will not mind :-).

It's not that I am on a queste, so if you have your doubts: leave it as it is, else people can search further at own will.

I'm not asking you to show evidence of papyrus that is said to be from 2000 BC. That would be a joke. Because you have none.

About showing sources about a Diets origin older then Greek/Latin: written accounts are a relative recent phenomenon in the longer history and not wide spread.

It is known that our and other's early forefathers had mainly other things to do then writing stuff down, except when they felt the need for :-)

Secondly it is generally known that in Greek/Roman/Catholic time, original scriptures that did exist but contradicted the Catholic and dominating world view, were burned/corrupted on large scale.

You take Caesar's account for real? Then take OLB also, cuz you have no bigger proof for Caesar's/Tacitus/... accounts then authority of centuries of Catholic feeding. And that you take for granted?

Concerning supposed (linguistic) connections between our low lands and ancient Israel or the Hebrews. My idea: there are connections (like there are connections with practically all languages), but not in line.

Meaning, Hebrew does not need to be necessarely predating and being the motherlanguage of Diets. In fact Schrieck is rather moderate on this (compared to others), he does not really places Diets before Hebrew. I think the only reason why he didn't is the time where his (and Becanus' contemporaries) work is published: better not challenge Catholic/Hebrew predominating world view. And that's just my personal view.

It is rather curious that we can explain Latin/Hebrew words with our own language better than they can with theirs.

He points to the common ground (not necessarely coming from), and those Latin/Greek/Hebrew words seem to have a meaning in Dietsch unknown to many.

[NO-ID-EA]

It's always good to wander off to other threads:

(from Caesar's The Bello Gallico, Book 6) :

(14.1)--The Druids do not go to war, nor pay tribute together with the rest; they have an exemption from military service and a dispensation in all matters.

(14.2) Induced by such great advantages, many embrace this profession of their own accord, and [many] are sent to it by their parents and relations.

(14.3) They are said there to learn by heart a great number of verses; accordingly some remain in the course of training twenty years.

(14.4) Nor do they regard it lawful to commit these to writing, though in almost all other matters, in their public and private transactions, they use Greek characters.

http://www.unexplain...6

Now if we can find an ancient Greek text that says the Celts used characters similar to but not the same as their own, we will be getting somewhere....

.

Hi Vrank........Just dropped in to see what was happening on your thread, if you are looking for a book that talks about samaritan , persian , hebrew, Irish (beth-luis-nion) alphabets being very similar you cant do better than take a look at Celtic Druids by Godfrey Higgins (1827)

i found a copy on-line at Villanova digital library.edu in the joseph Mcgarrity collection.............if you find a copy skip the first 189 pages which are all about Avebury and Stonehenge, and start on page 190........which is where higgins starts talking about druids , and Cadmean systems of letters and alphabets.........there is also a lot of etymalogical stuff in there on persian , keltic druid, hebrew, and indian gods..........Puzzler should be interested i think !

......One of the interesting things he says , is that anciently religion and philosophy went together and were run by priests, and that there was an elite priesthood throughout the world which spoke virtually the same language between themselves , in later years as countries went to war against each other , or ideas of religion ,philosophy changed , individual philosopher/priests invented writting , not to preserve for the people their history and origins but so they could keep them secret, his theory seems to be that priests of different nations actually encoded their beliefs so other invading nations could not read or interfere with them ..............maybe this is why your nation invented their frisian alphabet............to hide it from the Magy.???

Edited October 14, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[Abramelin]

Hi Vrank........Just dropped in to see what was happening on your thread, if you are looking for a book that talks about samaritan , persian , hebrew, Irish (beth-luis-nion) alphabets being very similar you cant do better than take a look at Celtic Druids by Godfrey Higgins (1827)

i found a copy on-line at Villanova digital library.edu in the joseph Mcgarrity collection.............if you find a copy skip the first 189 pages which are all about Avebury and Stonehenge, and start on page 190........which is where higgins starts talking about druids , and Cadmean systems of letters and alphabets.........there is also a lot of etymological stuff in there on persian , keltic druid, hebrew, and indian gods..........Puzzler should be interested i think !

......One of the interesting things he says , is that anciently religion and philosophy went together and were run by priests, and that there was an elite priesthood throughout the world which spoke virtually the same language between themselves , in later years as countries went to war against each other , or ideas of religion ,philosophy changed , individual philosopher/priests invented writting , not to preserve for the people their history and origins but so they could keep them secret, his theory seems to be that priests of different nations actually encoded their beliefs so other invading nations could not read or interfere with them ..............maybe this is why your nation invented their frisian alphabet............to hide it from the Magy.???

Weclome to UM, NO-ID-EA.

Apparently you know me from the Historum site, but I don't know who you are (= 'no idea', lol. Ib_issi, maybe??)...

Anyway, I found the book online:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Oh, and it's not 'my' thread, the admins split the thread just before that first post of mine here. The rest is now called Part -1-, as you can see in my signature.

==

Finding connections between cultures based on nothing more than similarities in languages, names, words is always risky.

By that alone you could equate the Druids with Dravidians...

.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Thank you for the list, Abe.

Can you point out the (max. 3) arguments that are most convincing in your opinion?

I will focus on commenting to them for now.

You better pick 3 yourself you want to comment on.

[The Puzzler]

jæ-l-lik

, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. jõ-hwe-lik

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-J.pdf

jõl-lik = jã-hwe-lik

[Abramelin]

For you're previous posts: I don't feel I have to show you anything if you don't mind (and if you mind, i will not mind :-).

It's not that I am on a queste, so if you have your doubts: leave it as it is, else people can search further at own will.

I'm not asking you to show evidence of papyrus that is said to be from 2000 BC. That would be a joke. Because you have none.

About showing sources about a Diets origin older then Greek/Latin: written accounts are a relative recent phenomenon in the longer history and not wide spread.

It is known that our and other's early forefathers had mainly other things to do then writing stuff down, except when they felt the need for :-)

Secondly it is generally known that in Greek/Roman/Catholic time, original scriptures that did exist but contradicted the Catholic and dominating world view, were burned/corrupted on large scale.

You take Caesar's account for real? Then take OLB also, cuz you have no bigger proof for Caesar's/Tacitus/... accounts then authority of centuries of Catholic feeding. And that you take for granted?

The difference between an OLB and Caesars writings is that Caesar was being quoted by temporaries and people living a couple of centuries later.

The OLB is a unique document of which only one exists, and it is not quoted (nor its writers mentioned) by anyone.

Btw: I said 2000 BP (= before present), not 2000 BC. But go to some museum (Leiden for instance) to see those papyri (the Romans used papyrus too, for a long time). ***

And I am quite sure that if Caesar had said something like (see bolded part) :

"(14.3) They are said there to learn by heart a great number of verses; accordingly some remain in the course of training twenty years.

(14.4) Nor do they regard it lawful to commit these to writing, though in almost all other matters, in their public and private transactions, they use characters that look like the Greek ones, but somewhat different".....

....then you and others would have seen that as a confirmation of an existing alternative script among the Europeans.

But he didn't say that.

++++

EDIT:

*** Some recent finds:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/04/0425_050425_papyrus.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/02/100203-lost-codex-gregorianus-roman-law-book/

.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Alba Longa = long altar?. A mountain ridge where sacrifices were held to Jupiter. The t went to b and d in many words. Note lêt in OLB became lad-en (lead, weight, meaning loaded up, heavy). I think this allows for alba to derive from altar.

On the summit was the sanctuary of Jupiter Latiaris, in which the consuls celebrated the Feriae Latinae, and several generals celebrated victories here when they were not accorded regular triumphs in Rome. The temple has not survived, but the Via Triumphalis leading up to it may still be seen.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alban_Hills

Old Frisian

Noun

altāre m. and n.

1. altar
   

Swedish

Noun

altare n.

1. altar (flat-topped structure used for religious rites)
   

As a sideline but interesting: Volcanic activity under king Tullus Hostilius on the site was reported by Livy in his book of Roman history: "...there had been a shower of stones on the Alban Mount...".

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Monte_Cavo

He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa

If the Fryans were in Italy, they imo, were quite possibly the people of Latium.

I've never been to Scotland but it appears on maps to be made up of many long ridges in the North especially.

Edited October 15, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I don't think Scotland was so named because of anything white. But that white came from alba/altar because ridges/altars touched the clouds. This also transferred to alt=high.

The term first appears in classical texts as Ἀλβίων or Ἀλουΐων (in Ptolemy's writings), later as Albion in Latin documents. Historically, the term refers to Britain as a whole and is ultimately based on the Indo-European root for "white".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba

Indo-European root word for white - alba...where???

white O.E. hwit, from P.Gmc. *khwitaz (cf. O.S., O.Fris. hwit, O.N. hvitr, Du. wit, O.H.G. hwiz, Ger. weiß, Goth. hveits), from PIE *kwintos/*kwindos "bright" (cf. Skt. svetah "white;" O.C.S. sviteti "to shine," svetu "light;" Lith. sviesti "to shine," svaityti "to brighten"). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=white

[Otharus]

You better pick 3 yourself you want to comment on.

No, I think they are all weak.

A theory is as good as its best arguments.

A collection of many weak arguments don't make a good theory.

Besides, in the course of this thread I have refuted all of them already and as you very well know I am not here just to spend time or be a high-quantity poster.

Or do you think all of the arguments on your list are of the same quality?

Come on, make it more easy for newcomers.

What are your three best reasons to believe OLB is a hoax?

[Abramelin]

Alba Longa = long altar?. A mountain ridge where sacrifices were held to Jupiter. The t went to b and d in many words. Note lêt in OLB became lad-en (lead, weight, meaning loaded up, heavy). I think this allows for alba to derive from altar.

On the summit was the sanctuary of Jupiter Latiaris, in which the consuls celebrated the Feriae Latinae, and several generals celebrated victories here when they were not accorded regular triumphs in Rome. The temple has not survived, but the Via Triumphalis leading up to it may still be seen.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Alban_Hills

Old Frisian

Noun

altāre m. and n.

1. altar
   

Swedish

Noun

altare n.

1. altar (flat-topped structure used for religious rites)
   

As a sideline but interesting: Volcanic activity under king Tullus Hostilius on the site was reported by Livy in his book of Roman history: "...there had been a shower of stones on the Alban Mount...".

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Monte_Cavo

He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa

If the Fryans were in Italy, they imo, were quite possibly the people of Latium.

I've never been to Scotland but it appears on maps to be made up of many long ridges in the North especially.

So you think this is wrong:

Livy said of Alba Longa that it was founded by Ascanius to relieve crowding at Lavinium. He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge. Dionysius of Halicarnassus repeated the story, but added that Ascanius, following an oracle given to his father, collected other Latin populations as well. Noting that alba means "white" (and longa "long") he translated the name "long white town." Dionysius placed the town between the Alban Mount and the Alban Lake, thus beginning a long controversy about its location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa

[Abramelin]

No, I think they are all weak.

A theory is as good as its best arguments.

A collection of many weak arguments don't make a good theory.

Besides, in the course of this thread I have refuted all of them already and as you very well know I am not here just to spend time or be a high-quantity poster.

Or do you think all of the arguments on your list are of the same quality?

Come on, make it more easy for newcomers.

What are your three best reasons to believe OLB is a hoax?

You have tried to refute them, yes.

But you wanted a summary, and this is it.

[Abramelin]

and where is The Mule now? I see it as people thinking they have missed the conversation and don't feel like they can add anything, once it's been pointed out it's already been discussed. But anyone is free to do that of course.

Then you don't get my point:

Of course anyone is free to add anything they like. But wouldn't it be great if someone adds something new? A new insight, a new find? Or do you like to rekindle old discussions again, making this thread (= part 1 + 2) one of the true internet monsters?

Let's say someone starts about the Vikings in relation to the OLB, like 'Hey, did you know that...." , and so on. Most probably I will add links to posts and pages of this thread and the archived thread.

Or.... we could start all over again, and make this part 2 a copy of part 1.

[Otharus]

From "Kelten En De Nederlanden Van Prehistorie Tot Heden", door Lauran Toorians. Published by Peeters, Bondgenoten Laan 153, Leuven.

... shop is the one with the low windows.

Yes that is a beautiful shop. I will have a look.

http://www.peeters-leuven.be/boekoverz.asp?nr=6662

Secondly it is generally known that in Greek/Roman/Catholic time, original scriptures that did exist but contradicted the Catholic and dominating world view, were burned/corrupted on large scale.

[...]

I think the only reason why he didn't is the time where his (and Becanus' contemporaries) work is published: better not challenge Catholic/Hebrew predominating world view.

[...]

It is rather curious that we can explain Latin/Hebrew words with our own language better than they can with theirs.

Krek!

(correct, or: I agree!)

[The Puzzler]

So you think this is wrong:

Livy said of Alba Longa that it was founded by Ascanius to relieve crowding at Lavinium. He placed it at the foot of the Alban Mount and said that it took its name from being extended along a ridge. Dionysius of Halicarnassus repeated the story, but added that Ascanius, following an oracle given to his father, collected other Latin populations as well. Noting that alba means "white" (and longa "long") he translated the name "long white town." Dionysius placed the town between the Alban Mount and the Alban Lake, thus beginning a long controversy about its location.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Alba_Longa

It's a name given when alba had 'become' a meaning for white, but I don't think it's what it really means, as named by those who named it.

Find this alba as white in some kind of etymology then.

[Abramelin]

No, I think they are all weak.

Well, what about this one, about your, Puzzler's and Van Gorp's favorite 'hobby':

"- It has been said many times in this thread that linguistics is not an exact science, meaning: we all can have a shot at it. Heh, I agree, so why use it to prove the OLB? It won't prove anything. It's mere play with words."

I have been busy trying to find some sort of archeological proof, but there's not really anything.

Yep, Minoans showing up in the German Bight, even Minoan characters on amber seals. Minoan inscriptions on a rock in Scandinavia.... but nothing the other way round as proof of ancient Frisians/Fryans showing up in Crete and so on.

[Abramelin]

It's a name given when alba had 'become' a meaning for white, but I don't think it's what it really means, as named by those who named it.

Find this alba as white in some kind of etymology then.

The Albans eventually moved to Rome together with the famous Julii family (as you can read on those Wiki pages). I have little doubt they must have spoken Latin, or whatever it was called back then.

+++

EDIT:

alb (n.)

late O.E. albe, from L.L. alba (in tunica alba or vestis alba "white vestment"), fem. of albus "white," from PIE root *albho- "white" (cf. Gk. alphos "white leprosy," alphiton "barley meal;" O.H.G. albiz, O.E. elfet "swan," lit. "the white bird;" O.C.S., Rus. lebedi, Pol. łabędź "swan;" Hittite alpash "cloud").

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

The Alps:

The original meaning may be from "white" (in reference to the permanent snow. The term may be common to Italo-Celtic, because the Celtic languages have terms for high mountains derived from alp. German Alpen is the accusative in origin, but was made the nominative in Modern German, whence also Alm.

Another theory is that in Latin Alpes is a name of non-Indo-European origin (which is common for prominent mountains and mountain ranges in the Mediterranean region). According to the Old English Dictionary, the Latin Alpes might possibly derive from a pre-Indo-European word *alb "hill", with Albania being a related derivation. Interestingly, Albania (which is a foreign name for modern Albanians) has been used as a name for a number of mountainous areas across Europe. In Roman times, Albania was a name for the eastern Caucasus, while in the English language Albania (or Albany) was occasionally used as a name for Scotland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps#Etymology

.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[NO-ID-EA]

Weclome to UM, NO-ID-EA.

Apparently you know me from the Historum site, but I don't know who you are (= 'no idea', lol. Ib_issi, maybe??)...

Anyway, I found the book online:

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Oh, and it's not 'my' thread, the admins split the thread just before that first post of mine here. The rest is now called Part -1-, as you can see in my signature.

==

Finding connections between cultures based on nothing more than similarities in languages, names, words is always risky.

By that alone you could equate the Druids with Dravidians...

.

Ha...Ha... Your guess was as good as mine when you visited Historum ..Vrank,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Google copy of Celtic Druids misses out all the good stuff , you really need the villanova.edu copy..............Some of his 2nd book Anacalypsis is good , but his theories of how different nations took up writting , in order to conceal their genesis , not to just record it , is mostly in Celtic Druids.

Druids and Dravids is a possibility for me , as is the Drus .and how about King David while we are at it ?.......twice in his boook Higgins calls the Fir-bolg , the Fri-bolg , not sure if it was a typo though. .......Some bits on the god IAO or AIO , which i think is coded A-TEN ??

Edited October 15, 2012 by NO-ID-EA

[Otharus]

But you wanted a summary, and this is it.

If I pick three and refute them, you will say "but what about the other arguments?".

In the end I will be refuting all of them again.

This is not about entertaining each other, but to make it easier for newcomers catching up on the discussion.

[The Puzzler]

The Albans eventually moved to Rome together with the famous Julii family (as you can read on those Wiki pages). I have little doubt they must have spoken Latin, or whatever it was called back then.

+++

EDIT:

alb (n.)

late O.E. albe, from L.L. alba (in tunica alba or vestis alba "white vestment"), fem. of albus "white," from PIE root *albho- "white" (cf. Gk. alphos "white leprosy," alphiton "barley meal;" O.H.G. albiz, O.E. elfet "swan," lit. "the white bird;" O.C.S., Rus. lebedi, Pol. łabędź "swan;" Hittite alpash "cloud").

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

.

Hittite alpash - cloud, is the oldest form there, like I said:

"But that white came from alba/altar because ridges/altars touched the clouds."

[The Puzzler]

Gk alphos - should relate to alpha - meaning highest, top most - as the clouds were - alb/alt mean high because the clouds were high and they were white so this form spread to 'white' - and altars were at 'high places' too, so imo, altars were originally mountain ridges that reached into the sky, touching the clouds. This concept is ancient, with the mountain ridge actually holding UP the sky and the clouds, hence when it collapsed, the sky fell down.

[Abramelin]

Ha...Ha... Your guess was as good as mine when you visited Historum ..Vrank,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The Google copy of Celtic Druids misses out all the good stuff , you really need the villanova.edu copy..............Some of his 2nd book Anacalypsis is good , but his theories of how different nations took up writting , in order to conceal their genesis , not to just record it , is mostly in Celtic Druids.

Druids and Dravids is a possibility for me , as is the Drus .and how about King David while we are at it ?.......twice in his boook Higgins calls the Fir-bolg , the Fri-bolg , not sure if it was a typo though. .......Some bits on the god IAO or AIO , which i think is coded A-TEN ??

Heh, "your guess is as good as mine"... OK, but I will call you "No" here, lol. (like in Dr. No, and I think it was from the "Blake & Mortimer" comic. And yes, also from the James Bond movies).

==

You should not forget that in medieval times people did their utmost best to 'prove' descendance of (one of the twelve) Hebrew tribes.

==

The spelling of the tribe you mentioned is "Fir Bolg", and "fir" stands for 'man, people' in both Celtic and Germanic.

Btw, in ancient Ireland the Frisians were known as the "Fresen":

Now, just to show you and the others what I meant, enter "Fresen" in the search tool, top-right (and click the magnifying glass - this topic).

.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I don't think the people of Latium were speaking Hittite - until the Romans came in, then this language overtook most of the original Latium language (pre-archaic Latin), so there should be a language in Latium that precedes Roman, with Roman Late Latin being a straight connection to Hittite IE. Hittites may have spoken a form of Fryan that head down that south east direction, changing a bit, so the core words of Hittite may lie in Fryan also. But Latium people would not have spoken the same language as Hittites imo.

Edited October 15, 2012 by The Puzzler