Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Apol]

One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.

Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the souvereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.

Anyway, the fact is that the farther back in time we come, the fewer recordings we have - regardless of who wrote them down. Therefore we often see the remark: "...first mention around AD XXXX...".

[Abramelin]

One of the problems with our materialistic natural science, is, that it is near to 100% dependent on matter. Places don't exist before they are mentioned in some manuscript.

Often we read on the Wikipedia that a city was founded by this and that person in this and that year. But this doesn't necessarily mean that there didn't exist a place at the same site from before - and with even the same name if the souvereign didn't put his own to it. It's often the rulers who write history and who have the resources to do so, and their main reason for doing it, is often their urge to immortalize themselves so that they can surpass their predecessors in reputation.

Anyway, the fact is that the farther back in time we come, the fewer recordings we have - regardless of who wrote them down. Therefore we often see the remark: "...first mention around AD XXXX...".

OK, the first mention of a place in some record doesn't mean that that was the moment the place was settled. But we also use archeological evidence. and that is how we for instance know when Middelburg was settled (or the Hague for that matter) and that was more than 1000 years after the time the OLB said it existed.

.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

How about ?

hrenka - renka

hringdik - ringdik

hrvtar - rvtar

Tha Johniar sprêkath bêtre, thach hja swygath thi h aend hwêri navt nêsa mot, waerth er ûtekêth.

However OCKEN-BURG comes closer to AKEN than The Hague. maybe we should adopt OCKEN-BURG.

As a source of inspiration for the OLB "Aken", yes. And as I posted earlier, the German Aken was also pronounced as "Ochen" or "Oochen" in some dialects, so Ockenburg in The Hague kind of fits.

And there was a centuries older Ockenburg in Wateringen, which is close to The Hague.

--

hrenka (OLB) - renka

hringdik (OLB) - ringdik

hrvtar (OLB) - rvtar

With this you prove that the Fryans did not drop the initial -H- .

.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Even if I think your idea is interesting, I'm not willing to reject Liège as my principal option for the site of Ljvdburch yet. The idea was originally put forward by Overwijn (even a blind chicken may find a grain...). Ljvd/Ljud = people = 'Volksburcht'. And the city is situated in the right area, if Aken should happen to be Aachen - which still is my opinion. But I'm willing to change my opinion as soon as another idea is more convincing.

Here is what is written about the etymology of the name Liège on the English Wikipedia:

The name is Germanic in origin and is reconstructible as *liudik-, from the Germanic word *liudiz "people", which is found in for example Dutch lui(den), lieden, German Leute, Old English lēod and Icelandic lýður ("people"). It is found in Latin as Leodicum or Leodium, in Middle Dutch as ludic or ludeke.

http://en.wikipedia.....org/wiki/Liège

I agree that Ljud = people.

Quote from the OLB:

THE WRITING OF KONERÊD.

My forefathers have written this book in succession. I will do this, the more because there exists no longer in my state any citadel on which events are inscribed as used to be the case. My name is Konerêd. My father’s name was Frethorik, my mother’s name was Wiljow. After my father’s death I was chosen as his successor. When I was fifty years old I was chosen for chief Grevetman. My father has written how the Linda-wrda and Ljudgârdne were destroyed.Lindahêm is still lost, the Linda-wrda partially, and the north Ljudgârdne are still concealed by the salt sea.

I preserved the original spelling of "Ljudgârdne", which appears to mean nothing else but (DU) "volkstuinen", literally, "people's gardens" or allotments.

These gardens are still popular among people who live in cities here.

.

[Abramelin]

Ljvdburch = 'Volksburcht' ?

I just read the other day that farmers (the "volk") in NW Europe often erected a ringwall (with a moat) around their settlement to protect themselves against attacks (and not only against the Vikings).

So if Liège = Ljvdburch, did it once have such a ringwall? And was it once such a protected settlement without any king or lord or representative of the government?

[Abramelin]

Ringwal burgh of Zutphen ("South Fens"), near the IJssel river ("Isala") :

Zutphen is said to be one of the oldest cities in the Netherlands (1700 BP), but the ringwall shows up only after the first attacks of the Vikings.

[Abramelin]

Must be me, but it's kind of annoying to see people keep spreading a wrong translation/interpretation of the OLB. Like I have posted before, some keep repeating that the Fryans came from Aldland and even that this Aldland was located in the North Sea, but it only proves they never read the OLB themselves (the Fryans didn't come from Aldland, but the Finda did / Aldland was supposed to be far away from the Fryans who lived on mainland Europe and that rules out anything located in the North Sea).

This one is from a Dutch guy, Sura de Heer, and I think it was Otharus who once said he preferred this translation::

Such is the history:

101 year after Atland had sunk, a people came from the east: the Magyars.Their highest

priest and King is The Magy. We call them the Finen.

http://home.kpn.nl/ae.de.heer/IndexScript.htm

And like I showed, the OLB doesn't talk about a people called "Magyar", but a people the Fryans called "Finna" :

From the OLB:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East (2194-101=2093 BCE).

That people was driven by another.

Behind us, in Twiskland, they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way.

Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part.

Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it.

Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us.

They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their temples/churches.

The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magiara, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one.

The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finna, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect.

But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds.

They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing.

They have weapons of stone, the Magiara of copper.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#aw

[Abramelin]

Location Aken:

From the OLB:

Fon Texland gvngon hja nêi Westflyland en sa allingen tha sê nêi Walhallagâra hin. Fon Walhallagâra brûdon hja allingen thêra sûder Hrênum al ont hja mith grâta frêse boppa thêre Rêne bi tha Marsâta kêmon hwêrfon vsa Apollânja skrêven heth. Tho hja thêr en stût wêst hêde, gvngon hja wither nêi tha delta. As hja nw en tid lông nêi tha delta offâren wêron al ont hja inna strêk fon thêre alda burch Aken kêmon, sind thêr vnwarlinga fjuwer skalka morth and naked uteklât.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bv

My translation into Dutch:

Van Texland gingen zij naa Westflyland en zo langs de zee naa Walhallagara heen. Van Walhallagara trokken zij op langs de zuider Rijn totdat zij met grote vreze boven de Rijn bij de Marsata kwamen waarvan onze Apollânia (ge)schreven heeft. Toen zij daar een tijd (ge)weest hadden/waren, gingen zij weder naa de delta. Als zij nu een tijd lang naa de delta op(ge)varen waren totdat ze in een strekke van de oude burght Aken kwamen, zijn daar onverwacht vier knechten/slaven vermoord en naakt uit(ge)kleed.

My translation into English:

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

Is the present-day city of Aken/Aachen located in the delta (or lowlands as Sandbach translated the word)?

I didn't think so.

It's also not anywhere near the Rhine.

.

Wherever the OLB "Aken" is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

There are several old maps depicting the Netherlands during Roman times, and most if not all locate the Marsatii south and near Lake Flevo and above and near the Rhine.

This is a Dutch book from 1832 (and scroll down a bit):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VCJJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=marsatii+tacitus&source=bl&ots=fhv1FN_IgN&sig=MtFNZWJPUmLbDD1aCJdtrSUitMc&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=IRI3UerOLMSCOOKageAD&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=marsatii%20tacitus&f=false

Then you will read:

De Kaninefates woonden hoogstwaarschijnlijk aan de overs der noordzee, de Marsatii in de moerassige streken des lands, die naderhand door de zuiderzee zijn weggespoeld.

Translation:

The Cananefates probably lived on the shores of the North Sea, the Marsatii in the marshy areas of the country, which afterwards were washed away by the Zuiderzee.

And the Zuiderzee is nothing but an enlarged/grown Lake Flevo.

The map made by Jakob van Lennep shows the same:

His map suggests (??) that Lake Flevo is called "Meir", after which the Marsatii were called.

And even a century older book says the same:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=7965#entry4125987

Even Ottema's map (from before he translated the OLB) does:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/otharus/LandDerFriezen1851Ottema.jpg

Another couple of old maps:

Germaniae Cisrhenanae ut inter I Casesaris et Traiani fuit imperia Scaldis item Mosae ac Rheni ostiorum antiqua descriptio

http://cartweb.geography.ua.edu:9001/StyleServer/calcrgn?cat=Europe&item=/Europe1697a.sid&wid=500&hei=400&props=item(Name,Description),cat(Name,Description)&style=simple/view-dhtml.xsl

http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/europe/france_benelux/benelux_Before1775.html

Atlas Schotanus, 1664

http://www2.tresoar.nl/digicollectie/object.php?object=233&zveld=&volg=1

My point: they returned after spending some time with these Marsatii, who lived south of and near Lake Flevo, and on their way back along the Rhine (or Waal) and in the (Meuse/Rhine) delta, NEAR the Aken burgh, they were attacked and so on.

So wherever Aken is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

[Apol]

Wherever the OLB "Aken" is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

There are several old maps depicting the Netherlands during Roman times, and most if not all locate the Marsatii south and near Lake Flevo and above and near the Rhine.

This is a Dutch book from 1832 (and scroll down a bit):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VCJJAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA109&lpg=PA109&dq=marsatii+tacitus&source=bl&ots=fhv1FN_IgN&sig=MtFNZWJPUmLbDD1aCJdtrSUitMc&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=IRI3UerOLMSCOOKageAD&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=marsatii%20tacitus&f=false

Then you will read:

De Kaninefates woonden hoogstwaarschijnlijk aan de overs der noordzee, de Marsatii in de moerassige streken des lands, die naderhand door de zuiderzee zijn weggespoeld.

Translation:

The Cananefates probably lived on the shores of the North Sea, the Marsatii in the marshy areas of the country, which afterwards were washed away by the Zuiderzee.

And the Zuiderzee is nothing but an enlarged/grown Lake Flevo.

The map made by Jakob van Lennep shows the same:

His map suggests (??) that Lake Flevo is called "Meir", after which the Marsatii were called.

And even a century older book says the same:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=7965#entry4125987

Even Ottema's map (from before he translated the OLB) does:

http://i1197.photobucket.com/albums/aa436/otharus/LandDerFriezen1851Ottema.jpg

Another couple of old maps:

Germaniae Cisrhenanae ut inter I Casesaris et Traiani fuit imperia Scaldis item Mosae ac Rheni ostiorum antiqua descriptio

http://cartweb.geography.ua.edu:9001/StyleServer/calcrgn?cat=Europe&item=/Europe1697a.sid&wid=500&hei=400&props=item(Name,Description),cat(Name,Description)&style=simple/view-dhtml.xsl

http://alabamamaps.ua.edu/historicalmaps/europe/france_benelux/benelux_Before1775.html

Atlas Schotanus, 1664

http://www2.tresoar.nl/digicollectie/object.php?object=233&zveld=&volg=1

My point: they returned after spending some time with these Marsatii, who lived south of and near Lake Flevo, and on their way back along the Rhine (or Waal) and in the (Meuse/Rhine) delta, NEAR the Aken burgh, they were attacked and so on.

So wherever Aken is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

Marsatii means just "sea-dwellers", and we know there were sea-dwellers also in Lake Constance (Bodenzee) anciently. According to the text, Adel and Jfkja experienced the same sea-dwellers as those Apollânja wrote about:

Apollânja's travel:

Boppa ðêre Rêna twisk ðet berchta. ðêr hæv ik mâr.sâta sjan. ða mâr.sâta ðæt send mænniska ðêr invppa mâra hêma. hjara husa send vp pælum buwad. ðæt is vret wilde kwik ænd bose mænniska. ðêr send wolva. bâra ænd swârte grislika lâwa. ænd hja send ða swetsar jefða pælenggar fonda hêindekrêka lander ðêra Kælta folgar ænd ða vrwildere. twiskar.

My translation:

Above the Rêna [Rhine], between the mountains, there I have seen lake-dwellers [marsacii]. The lake-dwellers, that is people who live on the lakes. Their houses are built on piles. That is because of the wild beasts and evil people. There are wolves, bears and black, dreadful lions. And they are the neighbors, or adjacent ones of the Hêinde Krêkalandar [italians], the Kælta-followers and the savage Twiskers

Adel and Jfkja's travel:

fon Tex.lând gvngon hja nêi Westflíland ænd sâ alingen ða sê nêi Wal.halla.gâra hin. fon Wal.halla.gâra brûdon hja alingen ðêra Sûder Hrênum alont hja mið grâte frêse boppa ðêre Rêne by ða mârsata kêmon hwêrfon vsa A.pol.lânja skrêven heð. hja hêr en stût wêst hêde gvngon hja wiðer nê ða delta. as hja nw en tid lông nêi ða delta of.fâren wêron alont hja inna strêk fon ðêre alda burch Aken kêmon ða sind ðêr vnwarlinga fjuwer skalka morð ænd naked uteklât.

My translation:

From Texlând they went to Westyflíland [West Vlieland], and then along the sea to Walhallagâra [Middelburg]. From Walhallagâra they went along the Sûder Hrênum [south Rhine, Waal], till they with great danger came up the Rêne [Rhine] to the lake-dwellers, of whom our Apollânja has written. When they had been here for a while, they went on to the delta. Now, when they for a time had been on their way from the delta – before they came in the area of the ancient burgh of Aken [Aachen], four guys were then unexpectedly murdered and stripped naked.

Maybe I wrote "back to the delta" in a previous contribution. If so, I was wrong. The text says "...gvngon hja wiðer nê ða delta". The German 'wieder' means 'back', that's true, but in Norwegian the adverb 'videre' means 'forth', 'further', 'farther', 'on', 'forward'. In the Oera Linda Book you find the word 'wiðer/wider' in the following places:

3/22, 19/33, 22/22, 25/2, 25/19, 32/16, 37/5, 37/26, 42/8, 44/20, 54/28, 55/16, 60/7, 69/20, 73/28, 83/1, 84/8, 84/31, 94/2, 97/30, 98/17, 98/24, 98/26, (106/6), 110/16, 115/22, 116/7, 118/5, 118/12, 118/23, 119/9, 119/32, 120/21, 121/29, 123/19, 123/22, 125/10, 126/22, 129/27, 143/30, 152/9, 152/16, 153/8, 153/15, 154/3, 154/27, 156/3, 156/23, 161/20, 161/21, 162/9, 163/3, 192/11, 196/21, 197/7, 201/10, 202/22, 204/16, 205/25

...and it has several meanings: 'again', 'once more', 'back', 'forth', 'on', 'farther', 'further', 'anew', 'against'. In this connection it probably means 'on' or 'forth'. That's my opinion so far. I'm aware of the preposition 'nêi' in the next sentence, though, which may cause some trouble to my theory. I'll await your response, because you will certainly make up some thoughts about it...

Edited March 6, 2013 by Apol

[Abramelin]

But is their a 'delta' or 'lowland' near the German Aken? There is near (west of) the Dutch Marsatii, south of Lake Flevo.

And "gvngon hja wiðer nê ða delta" meant "gingen weer (weder) na de delta" according to me: wiðer= again. When a German asks you to "Komm bald wieder" he means, "Come back soon".

There may have been other lake dwellers that Apollonia met, but from the text and the maps I deduce it were the Dutch Marsatii.

Why were no other tribes mentioned from the moment they passed the mouth of the southern Rhine? I think it's because these Marsatii were the first they met on their route.

The German 'weiter' mean further, onwards, and so on.

.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I was thinking of the English word 'withershins/widdershins':

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=widdershins&searchmode=none

withers

1570s, probably from a dialectal survival of Old English wiðer "against, contrary, opposite" (see with) + plural suffix. Possibly so called because the withers are the parts of the animal that oppose the load. Cf. German Widerrist "withers," from wider "against" + Rist "wrist.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=withers&allowed_in_frame=0

[The Puzzler]

Wherever the OLB "Aken" is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

There are several old maps depicting the Netherlands during Roman times, and most if not all locate the Marsatii south and near Lake Flevo and above and near the Rhine.

This is a Dutch book from 1832 (and scroll down a bit):

http://books.google....tacitus&f=false

Then you will read:

De Kaninefates woonden hoogstwaarschijnlijk aan de overs der noordzee, de Marsatii in de moerassige streken des lands, die naderhand door de zuiderzee zijn weggespoeld.

Translation:

The Cananefates probably lived on the shores of the North Sea, the Marsatii in the marshy areas of the country, which afterwards were washed away by the Zuiderzee.

And the Zuiderzee is nothing but an enlarged/grown Lake Flevo.

The map made by Jakob van Lennep shows the same:

His map suggests (??) that Lake Flevo is called "Meir", after which the Marsatii were called.

And even a century older book says the same:

http://www.unexplain...65#entry4125987

Even Ottema's map (from before he translated the OLB) does:

http://i1197.photobu...n1851Ottema.jpg

Another couple of old maps:

Germaniae Cisrhenanae ut inter I Casesaris et Traiani fuit imperia Scaldis item Mosae ac Rheni ostiorum antiqua descriptio

http://cartweb.geogr...ame,Description),cat(Name,Description)&style=simple/view-dhtml.xsl

http://alabamamaps.u...Before1775.html

Atlas Schotanus, 1664

http://www2.tresoar....3&zveld=&volg=1

My point: they returned after spending some time with these Marsatii, who lived south of and near Lake Flevo, and on their way back along the Rhine (or Waal) and in the (Meuse/Rhine) delta, NEAR the Aken burgh, they were attacked and so on.

So wherever Aken is located, it cannot be the German Aken.

But the Marzaten in the map are no where near the Swiss border, like the Marsaten described in the OLB. From this direction (from Swiss Alps to Holland) you would pass German Aachen, wouldn't you? Looks that way on my map. They also pulled up along the SOUTH Rhine before heading to above the Rhine - toward Switzerland.

This was the way that I did. My journey was along the Rhine—on this side up, and on the other side down. The higher I went, the poorer the people seemed to be. Everywhere about the Rhine the people dug holes, and the sand that was got out was poured with water over fleeces to get the gold, but the girls did not wear golden crowns of it. Formerly they were more numerous, but since we lost Schoonland they have gone up to the mountains. There they dig ore and make iron. Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are, built upon piles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the distant Italians, the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty. The Marsaten gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman’s skin. The Burgtmaagd at Fryasburgt (Freiburg) told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya’s people, they looked so impudent. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rhine people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains.

Apollonia describes the above area as being ABOVE the Rhine.

This below describes an area ABOVE the Rhine.

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

German Aachen is even earlier than Bronze Age and imo suits it being the old burg of Aken.

Flint quarries on the Lousberg, Schneeberg, and Königshügel, first used during Neolithic times (3,000-2,500 b.c.), attest to the long occupation of the site of Aachen, as do recent finds under the modern city's Elisengarten pointing to a former settlement from the same period. Bronze Age (ca. 1600 b.c.) settlement is evidenced by the remains of barrows (burial mounds) found, for example, on the Klausberg. During the Iron Age, the area was settled by Celtic peoples^[6] who were perhaps drawn by the marshy Aachen basin's hot sulphur springs where they worshiped Grannus, god of light and healing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen

In fact, the Angelfire version in English says this: (DESCENDING to the lowlands). They weren't sailing in the delta, they were descending to the lowlands/delta, passing Aachen/Aken on the way.

When they had stayed there a little time, they returned to the lowlands. When they had been some time descending towards the lowlands, and had reached about the old citadel of Aken, four of their servants were suddenly murdered and stripped.

Edited March 6, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Down the Waal/Sth Rhine, to above the Rhine, near Switzerland, descending back towards the delta, they "reached about the old citadel of Aken".

http://en.wikipedia....te_Rhein_03.jpg

Edited March 6, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Just to elaborate a bit more on this 'old citadel of Aken':

Flint quarries on the Lousberg, Schneeberg, and Königshügel, first used during Neolithic times (3,000-2,500 b.c.), attest to the long occupation of the site of Aachen, as do recent finds under the modern city's Elisengarten pointing to a former settlement from the same period. Bronze Age (ca. 1600 b.c.) settlement is evidenced by the remains of barrows (burial mounds) found, for example, on the Klausberg. During the Iron Age, the area was settled by Celtic peoples^[6] who were perhaps drawn by the marshy Aachen basin's hot sulphur springs where they worshiped Grannus, god of light and healing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen

Who exactly was inhabiting Aken in the Bronze Age, I'd like any more info on that excavation if anyone comes across any, under the Elisengarten.

Grannus:

In the Celtic polytheism of classical antiquity, Grannus (also Granus Mogounus Amarcolitanus) was a deity associated with spas, healing thermal and mineral springs, and the sun. He was regularly identified with Apollo as Apollo Grannus. He was worshipped chiefly in northern Gaul, in what by the 1st century AD were the Roman province of Gallia Belgica, Germania Superior and Germania Inferior, but also as far afield as Sarmizegetusa (Romania) and Fycklinge (Sweden).

A healing Sun God, alot like Apollo, I see.

Grannus' name?: Derivation from a Proto-Celtic root *granno- ‘beard’ (cf. Middle Welsh grann ‘chin; beard, hairs’ and Old Irish grend ‘beard, hairs’) has enjoyed some scholarly support,

gra-n-o

1 und häufiger?, lat.-afries.?, Sb.: nhd. Bart; ne. beard (N.); E.: germ.

*granæ (1), st. F. (æ), Granne, Barthaar; s. idg. *g

her- (3), *ghrÐ-, V.,

hervorstechen, Pokorny 440; L.: LF 22, 17

A beard is hairy. Like grain...

In the early twentieth century, the god was said to have still been remembered in a chant sung round bonfires in Auvergne, in which a grain sheaf is set on fire, and called Granno mio, while the people sing, “Granno, my friend; Granno, my father; Granno, my mother”.^[2] However, granno may simply be a derivative of an Occitan word of Latin origin meaning "grain" (compare Auvergnat gran "grain", grana "seed" and Languedocien grano, from Latin grānum "grain").

Grain and beard seem associated imo. Grannus - Cronus, sounds very alike.

One of the god’s most famous cult centres was at Aquae Granni (now Aachen, Germany). Aachen means ‘water’ in Old High German, a calque of the Roman name of "Aquae Granni".^[6] The town’s hot springs with temperatures between 45 °C and 75 °C lay in the somewhat inhospitably marshy area around Aachen's basin-shaped valley region.^[6] Aachen first became a curative centre in Hallstatt times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grannus

[Apol]

Down the Waal/Sth Rhine, to above the Rhine, near Switzerland, descending back towards the delta, they "reached about the old citadel of Aken".

http://en.wikipedia....te_Rhein_03.jpg

Yes, I can see it now. I've made it all more difficult than it is. In reality it is very simple. It is the way I imagined it to be from the beginning. Later I have messed it up.

Adel and Jfkja travelled up the Rhine to the sea-dwellers (the same sea-dwellers as the ones Apollânja wrote about - in Bodenzee).

After staying there for a while they returned to the Rhine-Maas delta.

On their way - in the area of the old burgh of Aken - which must mean a short distance before Bonn - their servants were murdered by savage Twisklanders.

Konerêd writes that it happened "in the area of" Aken, because they didn't pass close by the burgh - the burgh was situated some 60 km west of the Rhine.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Apol

[Abramelin]

But the Marzaten in the map are no where near the Swiss border, like the Marsaten described in the OLB. From this direction (from Swiss Alps to Holland) you would pass German Aachen, wouldn't you? Looks that way on my map. They also pulled up along the SOUTH Rhine before heading to above the Rhine - toward Switzerland.

This was the way that I did. My journey was along the Rhine—on this side up, and on the other side down. The higher I went, the poorer the people seemed to be. Everywhere about the Rhine the people dug holes, and the sand that was got out was poured with water over fleeces to get the gold, but the girls did not wear golden crowns of it. Formerly they were more numerous, but since we lost Schoonland they have gone up to the mountains. There they dig ore and make iron. Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are, built upon piles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the distant Italians, the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty. The Marsaten gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman’s skin. The Burgtmaagd at Fryasburgt (Freiburg) told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya’s people, they looked so impudent. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rhine people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains.

Apollonia describes the above area as being ABOVE the Rhine.

This below describes an area ABOVE the Rhine.

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

German Aachen is even earlier than Bronze Age and imo suits it being the old burg of Aken.

Flint quarries on the Lousberg, Schneeberg, and Königshügel, first used during Neolithic times (3,000-2,500 b.c.), attest to the long occupation of the site of Aachen, as do recent finds under the modern city's Elisengarten pointing to a former settlement from the same period. Bronze Age (ca. 1600 b.c.) settlement is evidenced by the remains of barrows (burial mounds) found, for example, on the Klausberg. During the Iron Age, the area was settled by Celtic peoples^[6] who were perhaps drawn by the marshy Aachen basin's hot sulphur springs where they worshiped Grannus, god of light and healing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aachen

In fact, the Angelfire version in English says this: (DESCENDING to the lowlands). They weren't sailing in the delta, they were descending to the lowlands/delta, passing Aachen/Aken on the way.

When they had stayed there a little time, they returned to the lowlands. When they had been some time descending towards the lowlands, and had reached about the old citadel of Aken, four of their servants were suddenly murdered and stripped.

To start with the Angelfire/Sandbach translation: it has been wrong so many times, it is just incredible.

It's not "towards the lowlands/delta" but "back to the lowlands/delta" or "returned to the lowlands/delta"

Second: you can find archeological evidence of human occupation in the area of The Hague of many millennia ago.

Third: the name of the Marsatii is supposed to mean 'people living on lakes/marshes'. So they could be those living directly south of Lake Flevo, or those near Switzerland. It's much like saying their name was "Farmers".

Fourth: they pulled up along the South Rhine, which is most probably the Waal river. Just another name a of branch of the river Rhine in the Netherlands.

Fifth: show me a delta/lowland near Aken, Germany. The German Aken is located at the foothills of the Ardennes, it's a mountainous area, not much of a delta or lowland there.

The area of The Hague was near the Meuse/Rhine delta.

.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

The story of The Hague is one of sea and dunes. People have been attracted by its favourable location for thousands of years.

At first the sea’s impact was strong and parts of the area were regularly flooded. That stopped 6,000 years ago, when a range of dunes formed. Its higher parts were ideal places for Stone Age people to hunt, live and till their fields.

The coastline slowly moved westwards, and people have lived in this land of sandbars and dunes ever since.

The first settlers

The first people to live in what is now The Hague settled on a dune near Ypenburg between ca. 3800 and 3400 BC. Their houses, the oldest in The Hague, have been excavated there together with one of the largest prehistoric cemeteries in the Netherlands: 31 graves containing the remains of 42 people.

A smaller Iron Age cemetery was discovered near the Hubertustunnel, at the entrance to the Oude Waalsdorperweg. Recognisable traces of fields from the Bronze and Iron Ages were found at the site of the World Forum, and some of the most beautiful middle Bronze Age pottery ever found was discovered during excavations near Bronovo Hospital.

A Stone Age settlement was found on top of The Hague’s oldest coastal barrier, in Wateringse Veld near the Rhijenhof sport and housing development. An interesting site from the Iron Age was discovered in the nearby Boezemland and Noordhof housing developments. It contained small pottery trays used to extract salt from seawater.

http://www.denhaag.n...n-The-Hague.htm

+++

EDIT:

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Damn, I should have added that the small red epileps near the North Sea coast is The Hague, or "Den Haag".

[Abramelin]

Yes, I can see it now. I've made it all more difficult than it is. In reality it is very simple. It is the way I imagined it to be from the beginning. Later I have messed it up.

Adel and Jfkja travelled up the Rhine to the sea-dwellers (the same sea-dwellers as the ones Apollânja wrote about - in Bodenzee).

After staying there for a while they returned to the Rhine-Maas delta.

On their way - in the area of the old burgh of Aken - which must mean a short distance before Bonn - their servants were murdered by savage Twisklanders.

Konerêd writes that it happened "in the area of" Aken, because they didn't pass close by the burgh - the burgh was situated some 60 km west of the Rhine.

This is not about some sea, it is about a lake and/or moors, bogs.

Jesus, Apol, where is that 'sea'?

And where did you get the "60 km west of the Rhine" from?

,.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

He's talking about the Bodenzee, called Lake Constance, at the foot of the Rhine near the Alps.

http://en.wikipedia..../Lake_Constance

It is like saying farmers but we already know it's the same ones Apollonia wrote about - and that is the near the Swiss Marsaten. Marsh dwellers or as mare, meer, see, se, zee - all lake, sea, water dwellers.

arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written.

Here we have Aachen, a well know city in the area as you would come back from visiting the Marsaten on the Bodensee/Lake Constance, foot of the Rhine.

Seems fairly straightforward to me, without having to make up any names at all.

I also don't think they were killed in the relatively stable delta area - but further upstream where the people were a bit wilder.

Well actually, it tells us who killed them, Twisklanders.

they arrived beyond the Rhine at the Marsaten of whom our Apollonia has written. When they had stayed there a little time, they returned to the lowlands. When they had been some time descending towards the lowlands, and had reached about the old citadel of Aken, four of their servants were suddenly murdered and stripped. They had loitered a little behind. My brother, who was always on the alert, had forbidden them to do so, but they did not listen to him. The murderers that had committed this crime were Twisklanders, who had at that time audaciously crossed the Rhine to murder and to steal.

Edited March 7, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Yes, I can see it now. I've made it all more difficult than it is. In reality it is very simple. It is the way I imagined it to be from the beginning. Later I have messed it up.

Adel and Jfkja travelled up the Rhine to the sea-dwellers (the same sea-dwellers as the ones Apollânja wrote about - in Bodenzee).

After staying there for a while they returned to the Rhine-Maas delta.

On their way - in the area of the old burgh of Aken - which must mean a short distance before Bonn - their servants were murdered by savage Twisklanders.

Konerêd writes that it happened "in the area of" Aken, because they didn't pass close by the burgh - the burgh was situated some 60 km west of the Rhine.

Yes. I only just saw about the Twisklanders. They had crossed the Rhine, on to the Aachen side.

Yes, 'about' the area too. Near Bonn I agree.

and had reached about the old citadel of Aken.

And Abe, they didn't just pull up along the South Rhine, they went down it (followed it) to get to the Marsaten.

From Texland they went to Westflyland, and so along the cost to Walhallagara; thence they followed the Zuiderryn (the Waal), till,

Edited March 7, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Yes. I only just saw about the Twisklanders. They had crossed the Rhine, on to the Aachen side.

Yes, 'about' the area too. Near Bonn I agree.

and had reached about the old citadel of Aken.

And Abe, they didn't just pull up along the South Rhine, they went down it (followed it) to get to the Marsaten.

From Texland they went to Westflyland, and so along the cost to Walhallagara; thence they followed the Zuiderryn (the Waal), till,

The Twisklanders who had done the wicked deed called themselves Frijen or Franken.

-

In the same way as Apollonia, they visited Lydasburgt and the Alderga. Afterwards they made a tour of all the neighbourhood of Stavera.

This is not about 600 BCE, this is about the Franks who showed up more than a millennium later in the area.

And the area is the south of the Netherlands (the province of Gelderland and Brabant), not the area around the German Aken.

The South Rhine is the river Waal. and that's where the Dutch Marsatii lived, south of Lake Flevo.

.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

OK, if it is the German Aken, then please explain to me what the name means.

The name is of Roman origin (Aquae Granni), and not from 600 BCE.

De vroege Middeleeuwen van 500 tot 1000

The early middle ages from 500 - 1000 AD

http://www.stellingw...iddeleeuwen.htm

The green area is occupied by the Franks.In the Netherlands that is the area of Gelderland, Utrecht and Brabant.

Got ya,

.

Edited March 7, 2013 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The Franks moved into that area by crossing the Rhine. From Twiskland, to Aachen, then spread more as they took over more.

It's in the time of Adel accordingly in the OLB.

Who is 'they'? You think it's the Franks? I think it's Adel and Ifkja. That's what the whole chapter is about. The tour of duty they did, like Apollonia did.

In the same way as Apollonia, they visited Lydasburgt and the Alderga. Afterwards they made a tour of all the neighbourhood of Stavera. They behaved with so much amiability, that everywhere the people wished to keep them. Three months later, Adel sent messengers to all the friends that he had made, requesting them to send to him their “wise men” in the month of May

I understand your point, it seems like it's the Franks but on reading it over, I don't think it is.

The Franken crossed the Rhine, yes, into the area of Aachen and spread from there, but not in the mention in that above paragraph.

Edited March 7, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

aqua-

word-forming element meaning "water," from Latin aqua "water; the sea; rain," cognate with Proto-Germanic *akhwo, source of Old English ea "river," Gothic ahua "river, waters," Old Norse Ægir, name of the sea-god, Old English ieg "island;" all from PIE *akwa- "water" (cf. Sanskrit ap "water," Hittite akwanzi "they drink," Lithuanian uppe "a river").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=aqua-

A Proto-Germanic word too. Depends if you think Latin was the first to have this meaning and word.