Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Knul]

Yes, the complete word, but in a juridical context with an other meaning something like ownership. I found three or four occasions in the 1820's, but I was not interested in them.

Opzoeken: propriėteit

1. 
   Propriëteit
   Let op: Spelling (deels) uit 1864: v. (-en), eigendom, eigendommelijkheid, eigenschap.
   Gevonden op http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/cali003nieu01/cali003nieu01_0019.htm
   
2. 
   PROPRIËTEIT
   1) Bezitting 2) Bezit 3) Eigendomsrecht 4) Eigendom 5) Eigenschap 6) Have
   Gevonden op http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/puzzelwoordenboek/PROPRIËTEIT/1
   
3. 
   PROPRIETEIT
   1) Zindelijkheid
   Gevonden op http://www.mijnwoordenboek.nl/puzzelwoordenboek/PROPRIETEIT/1
   

Tip: dubbelklik op een woord om de definities daarvan te zien.

[The_Spartan]

The names Alexander and Chandragupta have two different origins and meanings.

Alexandros = "Αλέξανδρος = "ἀλέξω + ἀνδρός = Alexos + Andros, ἀλέξω meaning to protect/ward off and ἀνδρός meaning "Men", essentially Alexnderros means Protector of Men.

whereas Chandragupta = Chandra + Gupta, Chandra meaning the Moon and Gupta meaning Commander/Military Governor/Leader.

The andros in Alexander and andra of the chandra are two different words with two different meanings.

Word play doesnt make facts often, it becomes linguistics gymnastics.

[NO-ID-EA]

Thanks Spartan , but the appelation that i was wondering about was Sandrocottus , not the other name Chandragupta which is obviously very different ,

we know that these kings were given many titles , Nanda was called Mahapadma , mahapadmapati , Aggramen (Agrammes ), Ugrasena , Mudra Rakshasa as far as i can see ,

so i dont suppose that Sandracottus means Moon - Commander .

i thought that Chandra was supposed to have come from a Solar Clan, rather than a Moon Clan.

If the Nanda ( of which Chandra was said to be a remote Scion ) were foreigners , then this could be why they were classified as low caste , and foreigners

would not have necessarily gone along with the caste system , meaning that it would not have the same meaning to them , and they would not worry about

taking a Sudra as a wife for a King . ( as Chandra's father was said to have done )

Many of the ancient Buddhist and Jain writing completely ignore some of the offspring of the Nandas , as if they do not consider them legitimate Kings, for

instance there is no mention of Darsaka's reign , he can only be verified by an inscription in the Nagarjuni hill caves , and some of ( Sri-Lankan) Ceylons Buddhist

literature .

[The_Spartan]

Thanks Spartan , but the appelation that i was wondering about was Sandrocottus , not the other name Chandragupta which is obviously very different ,

we know that these kings were given many titles , Nanda was called Mahapadma , mahapadmapati , Aggramen (Agrammes ), Ugrasena , Mudra Rakshasa as far as i can see ,

so i dont suppose that Sandracottus means Moon - Commander .

i thought that Chandra was supposed to have come from a Solar Clan, rather than a Moon Clan.

If the Nanda ( of which Chandra was said to be a remote Scion ) were foreigners , then this could be why they were classified as low caste , and foreigners

would not have necessarily gone along with the caste system , meaning that it would not have the same meaning to them , and they would not worry about

taking a Sudra as a wife for a King . ( as Chandra's father was said to have done )

Many of the ancient Buddhist and Jain writing completely ignore some of the offspring of the Nandas , as if they do not consider them legitimate Kings, for

instance there is no mention of Darsaka's reign , he can only be verified by an inscription in the Nagarjuni hill caves , and some of ( Sri-Lankan) Ceylons Buddhist

literature .

Snadra is how the Greeks would ahve pronounced the name Chandra.

This cottus would have been a corruption of the name or how they would have heard Gupta.

Chandra means The Moon and Gupta means Commander. No doubts about it.

Sandracottus is the corruption of the name Chandragupta . how the greeks heard and understood the name.

Nanda Dynasty ruled over Magadha which is not in western India but in Eastern India, covering present day states of Bihar, Jharkhand, West Bengal, Odisha and parts of Madhya pradesh. This is INSIDE India and Not Outside India. So, the concept of Outsider doesnt stand.

the concept of Foreigners being low caste, didnt exist at that time.

the concept of Foreigners being Mlechhas or Barbarians did exist.

Now, can you give me some evidence /documentation/reference that The Nanda Dynasty were foreigners.

The Assumption that the Nandas were foreginers because All Foreigners were low castes and Nandas were Low caste, doesnt stand.

Foreigners can be low caste , but all foreigners need not be low caste and Low caste can be Foreigners, but all low caste need not be Foreigners. Simple Logic.

And what is the essense of stating matters about Darska in regards to Chandrgupta Maurya?

Your thought process is not linear. it branches off widly and I am not able to understand the sequence and matter.

Dont jump off into another subject right in middle of explaining something. stay in the flow.

Be legible.

It is better to start a different thread for your doubts, views on Ancient India ather than derail a topic on the OLB and the Flood.

[Abramelin]

Have we got any idea what time frame Friso was alive , and did i read , or did i dream it , that Friso could have been in Alexanders Army ?

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

The Friso of old Frisian legend did serve in Alexander's army.

.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[NO-ID-EA]

Snadra is how the Greeks would ahve pronounced the name Chandra.

This cottus would have been a corruption of the name or how they would have heard Gupta.

Chandra means The Moon and Gupta means Commander. No doubts about it.

Sandracottus is the corruption of the name Chandragupta . how the greeks heard and understood the name.

Nanda Dynasty ruled over Magadha which is not in western India but in Eastern India, covering present day states of Bihar, Jharkhand, West Bengal, Odisha and parts of Madhya pradesh. This is INSIDE India and Not Outside India. So, the concept of Outsider doesnt stand.

the concept of Foreigners being low caste, didnt exist at that time.

the concept of Foreigners being Mlechhas or Barbarians did exist.

Now, can you give me some evidence /documentation/reference that The Nanda Dynasty were foreigners.

The Assumption that the Nandas were foreginers because All Foreigners were low castes and Nandas were Low caste, doesnt stand.

Foreigners can be low caste , but all foreigners need not be low caste and Low caste can be Foreigners, but all low caste need not be Foreigners. Simple Logic.

And what is the essense of stating matters about Darska in regards to Chandrgupta Maurya?

Your thought process is not linear. it branches off widly and I am not able to understand the sequence and matter.

Dont jump off into another subject right in middle of explaining something. stay in the flow.

Be legible.

It is better to start a different thread for your doubts, views on Ancient India ather than derail a topic on the OLB and the Flood.

You are right it needs a different thread , is that easy to do ? what forum should it go in do you think...........

[The_Spartan]

Ancient Mysteries itself or a History sub forum, i suppose.

[Abramelin]

Much of the discussion concerning the OLB is also about 'fossilized' historians unwilling to accept an alternative history, or historians ridiculing the OLB for it, and so on.

I said - in this and in other threads - that it is not a typical Frisian thing, creating a grand history out of nowhere; you see it in many other nations. There are Turks, Macedonians, Albanians, Indians (from India that is), Tamil, Jews, all claiming that their language and culture is the oldest and that it spread around the world.

And then there are Hungarians, Magyar, claiming the same. Now I don't want to go off topic again, but read the next about the 'true' history of the Magyar:

Today it is an open secret that the Western Press has accepted the Hungarian sources which purposefully distort Hungarian History and silence research in the field of Hungarian linguistics. Based on this information, the West makes a judgment about Hungarian culture from the past to the present day. The silencing and distortion of the Hungarian culture is not a new development. On November 6, 1858, Count István Széchenyi, who was the founder of the Hungarian Academy of Science, in theory, withdrew his support of the Academy because, at that time, the Academy supported the Hapsburg politics, which caused enormous damage to the nation and the national identity.

Since that time, the stance of the Hungarian government and the Hungarian Academy of Science has not changed. Therefore, many emigrant Hungarians have become linguists and historians, in order to present a true picture of Hungarian culture and language, hoping to change the distorted opinion of the West. In spite of enormous difficulties, the Hungarian Press in the West has supported this cause. It should be noted that, for many years, the Hungarian Government has not supported national interests, either during the Hapsburg era or after World War II., not even since the fall of Communism in 1990. The Hungarian Academy of Science has not changed its position either. Hungarian researchers who are members of the Hungarian Academy of Science cannot openly present their research because of the hostile and stifling atmosphere of the Academy. Even if, on a rare occasion, they do publish their work, it is never accepted into the school books and can never become public knowledge among the Hungarian people. The silenced and distorted history is the grave of the Hungarian identity. Without its identity, the nation loses the desire to live which is the cause of the population decline. This is why it is necessary that the role of the Hungarian Academy of Science be taken over by an independent organization which is truly Hungarian and scientific.

http://www.magtudin.org/About%20us.htm

The articles (many in English):

http://www.magtudin.org/Articles.htm

+++

EDIT:

Forgot this one:

http://www.schonwald...ut_the_huns.htm

http://ttzlibrary.yu...ry#.UY-780rT6Vs

And this one:

http://ttzlibrary.yuku.com/reply/189/Hunin-Munin-Hungary#reply-189

.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

From the last link in my former post :

The name of Árpád, the founder of the modern Hungary, can be found in ancient records, from Egypt to Northern Mesopotamia. According to the Hungarian legend of the Turul Hawk (a mythical bird which corresponds to the Sumerian "Dugud"), Ügyek, the descendant of king Magog (the Scythian king Magog lived in Northern Mesopotamia, according to Assyrian records) and a royal leader of the land of Scythia, married the daughter of Ened-Belia, whose name was Emeshe (a word that means "priestess" in Sumerian language). From her was born their first son Álmos. Álmos, who was Árpád's father, is said to be a descendant of Attila the Hun.

Just to show you all how desperate people can become to prove they are the one and true origin of civilization.

[jaylemurph]

The names Alexander and Chandragupta have two different origins and meanings.

Alexandros = "Αλέξανδρος = "ἀλέξω + ἀνδρός = Alexos + Andros, ἀλέξω meaning to protect/ward off and ἀνδρός meaning "Men", essentially Alexnderros means Protector of Men.

whereas Chandragupta = Chandra + Gupta, Chandra meaning the Moon and Gupta meaning Commander/Military Governor/Leader.

The andros in Alexander and andra of the chandra are two different words with two different meanings.

Word play doesnt make facts often, it becomes linguistics gymnastics.

That's amusing: Alexander was particularly bad at warding off Hephaestion.

--Jaylemurph

[NO-ID-EA]

Abe i tried to PM you but it says you cant receive mssgs ?

Was going to ask if a couple of these posts could be copied to new thread....Poss my 3902 , 3953.....Spartans 3903,3905,3952, 3954 and your 3904 plus any others of yours or anyone elses that may be relative /useful ...is it poss to do or not ?.... if it is poss , keep it simple , i am a complete technophobe , give me a book rather than a computer anyday ......Thks

[Abramelin]

Abe i tried to PM you but it says you cant receive mssgs ?

Was going to ask if a couple of these posts could be copied to new thread....Poss my 3902 , 3953.....Spartans 3903,3905,3952, 3954 and your 3904 plus any others of yours or anyone elses that may be relative /useful ...is it poss to do or not ?.... if it is poss , keep it simple , i am a complete technophobe , give me a book rather than a computer anyday ......Thks

Maybe my inbox is full?

-

To start a new thread using these posts is easy: go to a post, and click on "quote". Then copy everything you see into Notepad. Do that with every post you want for that new thread.

Then copy the whole lot and paste it into a new thread/opening post.

That should work.

And maybe you can ask Saru to do it for you.

.

Edited May 12, 2013 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Btw, where are you, Apol? And Gestur? And Puzzler? And Alewyn?

.

Nice to be missed I must say.

OK, so what are we up to? Give me something I can chew on, I'm desperate for a Google Search hit.

Oh right, I see, since when was jay invited to this thread? Yeah yeah I know, you can go wherever...actually I'm glad you turned up and I forgive you for any past annoyances, kiss your as.s and all that, I've turned over a new leaf mate, I've really enjoyed your intelligent, sarcastic posts that have made me chuckle these last few days reading your witty and amusing advice for newbie UMer's, who were once like me, and be under no illusions mr bassett hound, my brain evolved ten-fold thanks to you and your bum-buddies.

[The Puzzler]

From the last link in my former post :

The name of Árpád, the founder of the modern Hungary, can be found in ancient records, from Egypt to Northern Mesopotamia. According to the Hungarian legend of the Turul Hawk (a mythical bird which corresponds to the Sumerian "Dugud"), Ügyek, the descendant of king Magog (the Scythian king Magog lived in Northern Mesopotamia, according to Assyrian records) and a royal leader of the land of Scythia, married the daughter of Ened-Belia, whose name was Emeshe (a word that means "priestess" in Sumerian language). From her was born their first son Álmos. Álmos, who was Árpád's father, is said to be a descendant of Attila the Hun.

Just to show you all how desperate people can become to prove they are the one and true origin of civilization.

Y'know, I agree, but at the same time, something says it could be possible and we are missing it or it has not been revealed.

I haven't dissected this legend properly to Attila the Hun yet but on what you say above, if indeed the Gutians were actually a Goth type who has been misplaced from Scandinavia and ended up in theZagros Mountains, then took over Sumeria, are mentioned in the King List, very Nordic names like Tirrigan (he reigned for 40 days, I love that one), people who didn't know Marduk, were ignorant of any Meospotamian ways, complete foreigners, they entered Sumeria c. 2200BC, I see no reason this couldn't have passed into Greek or Armenian areas, Thrace, where did the Gutians go when they were ejected from Sumeria? Disappear, I don't think so. Giants in the Levant more likely.

A Scythian King Magog in Scythia, in the North of Mesopotamia, what's so weird or unusual about that?

Scythia went down to North Meso. Again, Greek myth mentions a son of Priam, Tithonius (edit) as being a King of Susa. He married Eos (East), in Babylon basically.

To Hungary, why not? A very simple journey to Thrace, mentioned left, right and centre throughout myth too. Romania, a place of the Vinca culture, these areas are most rich in ancient culture and I see absolutely no reason to think true connections were not really behind them.

Magi being Scythians I could even see, very clearly through the smoky haze. When I read history there was certainly no body who created ' finer' sacrifice ceremonies than them, also Herodotus has been shown to be right through archaeological finds (up to 50 youths and horses sacrificed at once, in a circle, propped up on sticks), even though his description was deemed way too barbaric to be believed, they took the cake imo. (Magog)

Edited May 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Otharus and I once discussed the OLB T-ANFANG and the goddess TANFANA:

http://www.unexplain...00#entry4145295

and read the subsequent posts.

And you all will remember our recent discussion concerning T-ANFANG, TBIJIN, and so on

Here you will see TANFANA spelled like t'ANFANA, page xii (Simon Abbes Gabbema in):

Friesche Rymlerye: In trye dielen forschaet/ 1684 Gysbert Japicx

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

An old post of mine about the goddess TANFANA:

http://www.unexplain...90#entry4252155

++++

EDIT:

My point: why would Gabbema spell Tacitus' TAMFANA/TANFANA like he did, t'ANFANA ?

And did he inspire someone with that way of spelling?

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Puzz, instead of dissecting that particular legend, you may better first wade through those artcles on that Hungarian site to get an idea what it's all about.

Example:

http://www.magtudin.org/Barath_Tibor_The_Early_Hungarians.pdf

The other articles in English:

http://www.magtudin.org/English%20Index.htm

[Abramelin]

Knul once mentioned the use of herbal medicine amongst the Frisians and amongst the Fryans in the OLB

I found something in Pliny's "The natural history", or "Historia Naturalis"

(3.) It is not, however, the animals only that are endowed

with certain baneful and noxious properties, but, sometimes,

waters- even, and localities as well. Upon one occasion, in his

German campaign, Germanicus Caesar had pitched his camp

beyond the river Rhenus ; the only fresh water to be obtained

being that of a single spring in the vicinity of the sea-shore.

It was found, however, that within two years the habitual use

of this water was productive of loss of the teeth and a total

relaxation of the joints of the knees : the names given to

these maladies, by medical men, were " stomacace"'' and

'* sceloturbe." A remedy for them was discovered, however,

in the plant known as the " britannica," which is good, not

only for diseases of the sinews and mouth, but for quinzy- also,

and injuries inflicted by serpents. This plant has dark oblong

leaves and a swarthy root : the name given to the flower of it

is " vibones," and if it is gathered and eaten before thunder

has been heard, it will ensure safety in every respect. The

Frisii, a nation then on terms of friendship with us, (and within

whose territories the Eoman arm(y??) was encamped), pointed out

this plant to our soldiers : the name* given to it, however,

rather surprises me, though possibly it may have been so

called because the shores of Britannia are in the vicinity, and

only separated by the ocean. At all events, it was not called

by this name from the fact of its growing there in any great

abundance, that is quite certain, for at the time I am speaking

of, Britannia was still independent.

http://archive.org/s...05plin_djvu.txt

20

Nec bestiarum solum ad nocendum scelera sunt, sed interim aquarum quoque ac locorum. in Germania trans Rhenum castris a Germanico Caesare promotis maritimo tractu fons erat aquae dulcis solus, qua pota intra biennium dentes deciderent compagesque in genibus solverentur. stomacacen medici vocabant et scelotryben ea mala. reperta auxilio est herba, quae appellatur Britannica, non nervis modo et oris malis salutaris, sed contra anginas quoque et contra serpentes. folia habet oblonga nigra, radicem nigram

21

sucus eius exprimitur et e radice. florem vibones vocant, qui collectus, priusquam tonitrum audiatur, et devoratus securos in totum annum a metu anginae praestat. Frisi, gens tum fida, in qua castra erant, monstravere illam. mirorque nominis causam, nisi forte confines oceano Britanniae veluti propinquae dicavere. non enim inde appellatam, quoniam ibi plurima nasceretur, certum est etiam tum Britannia libera.

http://penelope.uchi..._Elder/25*.html

.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Abramelin

[LazzaV]

I stumbled across the OLB and this site while doing genealogical research. Having done a quick assessment on the expert opinions it appears to me that the OLB is a fake with a purpose.

I believe it was written to undermine the Bible and the status of the Jewish "chosen people" with the purpose of replacing that myth with this Aryan myth and Aryan "bible" (OLB).

The serendipitous "finding" of the book coincides with a surge of nationalism in Europe. This era is even historically known as the "Golden Age" of nationalism. And indeed links between India, the source of the sanskrit word "aryan" are even stated. As you would expect the book is littered with enough other historical and mythological icons and events to give it credibility.

For me this is a massive disappointment, for I am looking to indulge in the ancient lore of my ancestors. While I appreciate the intrigue of a good mystery, to me this is not one.

[Abramelin]

I stumbled across the OLB and this site while doing genealogical research. Having done a quick assessment on the expert opinions it appears to me that the OLB is a fake with a purpose.

I believe it was written to undermine the Bible and the status of the Jewish "chosen people" with the purpose of replacing that myth with this Aryan myth and Aryan "bible" (OLB).

The serendipitous "finding" of the book coincides with a surge of nationalism in Europe. This era is even historically known as the "Golden Age" of nationalism. And indeed links between India, the source of the sanskrit word "aryan" are even stated. As you would expect the book is littered with enough other historical and mythological icons and events to give it credibility.

For me this is a massive disappointment, for I am looking to indulge in the ancient lore of my ancestors. While I appreciate the intrigue of a good mystery, to me this is not one.

Hi LazzaV, welcome to UM !

I agree with you that the OLB has a strong religious undertone. The Hebrews do show up in the OLB as the GOLA, who were missionary priests from Sidon. GOLA is a Hebrew word for 'exiles'. The Gola (as a people later on) became the enemies of the Fryans.

Then there are passages in the OLB that resemble parts of the Old Testament, or hint at the OT.

Btw, you said you were doing genealogical research; may I ask where you come from?

.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Abramelin

[LazzaV]

Hi Abramelin,

I live in New Zealand. But my family goes back hundreds of years to Waddinxveen, which I believe is Cannanefate territory.

[Abramelin]

Hi Abramelin,

I live in New Zealand. But my family goes back hundreds of years to Waddinxveen, which I believe is Cannanefate territory.

Yep, Cananefate territory alright.

You (still) speak Dutch? That would be of great help because there's a lot of translating going on in this thread.

[LazzaV]

Yep, Cananefate territory alright.

You (still) speak Dutch? That would be of great help because there's a lot of translating going on in this thread.

No sorry. Our family actually came here to NZ from Indonesia.

[Abramelin]

So let us go back to the situation that Apol, Otharus/Gestur, you and me are involved in discussions on the OLB. There is much to be investigated yet, e.g. the relation between the juridical texts in OLB as compared to the Oldfrisian texts like the Asega book. Did the author fancy the juridical texts or can we find similar Oldfrisian texts ? Who dares ?

Let me start with a quote from the OLB:

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

(...)

From the other Greeks you will have heard a great deal of bad about Cecrops, because he was not in good repute; but I dare affirm that be was an enlightened man; very renowned both among the inhabitants and among us, for he was against oppression, unlike the other priests, and was virtuous, and knew how to value the wisdom of distant nations. Knowing that, he permitted us to live according to our own Asegaboek. There was a story current that he was favourable to us because he was the son of a Frisian girl and an Egyptian priest: the reason of this was that he had blue eyes, and that many of our girls had been stolen and sold to Egypt, but he never confirmed this. However it may have been, certain it is that he showed us more friendship than all the other priests together. When he died, his successors soon began to tear up our charters, and gradually to enact so many unsuitable statutes that at long last nothing remained of liberty but the shadow and the name. Besides, they would not allow the laws to be written, so that the knowledge of them was hidden from us. Formerly all the cases in Athens were pleaded in our language, but afterwards in both languages, and at last in the native language only.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

The OLB doesn't use the word "Asegabook", but Sêgabok.

.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, instead of dissecting that particular legend, you may better first wade through those artcles on that Hungarian site to get an idea what it's all about.

Example:

http://www.magtudin...._Hungarians.pdf

The other articles in English:

http://www.magtudin....glish Index.htm

I have an idea - and that's it.

Edited May 14, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Let me start with a quote from the OLB:

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.

(...)

From the other Greeks you will have heard a great deal of bad about Cecrops, because he was not in good repute; but I dare affirm that be was an enlightened man; very renowned both among the inhabitants and among us, for he was against oppression, unlike the other priests, and was virtuous, and knew how to value the wisdom of distant nations. Knowing that, he permitted us to live according to our own Asegaboek. There was a story current that he was favourable to us because he was the son of a Frisian girl and an Egyptian priest: the reason of this was that he had blue eyes, and that many of our girls had been stolen and sold to Egypt, but he never confirmed this. However it may have been, certain it is that he showed us more friendship than all the other priests together. When he died, his successors soon began to tear up our charters, and gradually to enact so many unsuitable statutes that at long last nothing remained of liberty but the shadow and the name. Besides, they would not allow the laws to be written, so that the knowledge of them was hidden from us. Formerly all the cases in Athens were pleaded in our language, but afterwards in both languages, and at last in the native language only.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bd

The OLB doesn't use the word "Asegabook", but Sêgabok.

.

There's a lot of sega and seka words in the Frisian dictionary.

What are you making of Sêgabok?

The only one I can see however, with the same kind of e is

sê-g-e

murder... or

sê-ga-ng tidal wave.

seems to be referencing sea unless it just goes to a se word.

-------------------------------------

Edit: Found some answers.

The Asega-bôk, the name literally translating as "Book of the Judges", was part of the legal code for the Rustringian Frisians.^[1][2] The oldest known manuscript version of it, the First Riustring Manuscript (now in Oldenburg) is, besides the oldest extant text in Frisian, one of the oldest remaining continental codes of Germanic law.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Asega-bôk

Edited May 14, 2013 by The Puzzler