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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

That's your opinion only.

Magyars when they moved south mixed with the Andronovo culture. These people have a long history, way prior to any mention of Persian Magi.

In fact, later on in Viking times, the Magyars moved to the area of the Don, where is placed Asaland and where Odin came from, a great centre of sacrifice.

Magyars and Finns mentioned in the OLB, co-incidently both Uralic language speakers and both mentioned as leaders and followers in the OLB and you think there's no connection??

It's not confusing: Magyar are the priests but the head priest is the Magy, the regular people are nobodies, then become Finns.

That's my opinion indeed, but based on what the OLB itself tells us.

I actually quoted the part that says that their priests (their = FINNA) were called 'Magjar' and the headmen Magy. So we have a people of whom the OLB says had no name, so the Fryans called them FINNA, and with priests called Magjar. The Finna were the common people of that tribe, and carried stone weapons, while their priests, the Magiar carried copper weapons.

These Finna had temples/churches with statues, 'just like the Egyptians'..... and so nothing like the MagYar people/tribe we know of.

It is indeed like Goffe Jensma said in his book: the writers of the OLB just tossed similar sounding names on one heap, not caring whether it was all anachronistic, and created a new people.

And Willem van Haren called them Mager, Persian followers of Zoroaster.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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In Ugric Magy can mean 'those who speak' - Magyar = men of those who speak. http://en.wikipedia....rian_prehistory

Badly chosen, I don't think so.

Also I just showed the original Hungarian Magyar moved to the Don and Snorri has that area as where Odin came from, not hard to then connect the mention of them by him as being at Ragnorok.

Just look at the timeline (your link) :

Hungarian prehistory (Hungarian: magyar őstörténet) refers to the prehistoric Magyars (Hungarians), from the time when they separated from Common Ugric (estimated to correspond to the early 1st millennium BC) until their conquest of the Carpathian Basin in the late 9th century (known as Honfoglalás "Landtaking" in Hungarian historiography).

-

Climate changes around 1300 BC resulted in the northward expansion of the steppes which compelled several groups within the proto-Ugric people to turn to the nomadic lifestyle. This change was strengthened by the several proto-Iranian groups living south of them who had been practicing pastoral nomadism and whose influence on the proto-Ugric people can be proven by several loanwords in their languages. The formation of the Hungarian language occurred around this time (between 1000 BC and 500 BC) and can be localized to the southern regions of the Ural Mountains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory

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From the OLB:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East (2194-101=2093 BCE).

That people was driven by another.

Behind us, in Twiskland, they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way.

Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part.

Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it.

Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us.

They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their temples/churches.

The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magiara, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one.

The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finna, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect.

But still they are not to be envied, because they are slaves to their priests, and still more to their creeds.

They believe that evil spirits abound everywhere, and enter into men and beasts, but of Wr-alda’s spirit they know nothing.

They have weapons of stone, the Magiara of copper.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#aw

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Now why were these people called FINNA by the Fryans? They were not portrayed as a very happy people: they were slaves to their priests and even more to their creeds, melancholic, very formal....

This is from a book about the island of Texel:

Zo was het dorp Oosterend in twee kampen verdeeld - en het is dat tot op zekere hoogte nog wel - , te weten in het kamp van de 'fijnen' en in dat van de 'groven'. De 'fijnen' zijn de gereformeerden en orthodox hervormden, de 'groven' bestaan uit vrijzinnig hervormden, katholieken, doopsgezinden en onkerkelijken.

Such was the village Oosterend divided into two camps - and it is to some extent still -, namely in the camp of the 'fine (delicate)' and that of the 'rude'. The 'fine' are the Reformed and Orthodox Reformed, the 'rude' consist of liberal reformers, Catholics, Mennonites and unchurched.

http://books.google....ligieus&f=false

We still call certain strictly religious people 'Fijnen' (they mainly live in the Dutch 'Bible Belt'): they are not allowed to dance or listen to popular music, they are not allowed to watch television, they are not allowed to go out and have fun, go to a cinema or theater, they wear only or mainly black clothes, women are not allowed to wear pants, they are not allowed to do anything resembling work on Sundays, many walk with their heads bent down in submission, they follow the Bible to the letter, think that humans are basically sinners with little hope of salvation, their minister ("voorganger") is boss, vaccinations are forbidden, insurance is forbidden, the devil is everywhere and in everything, and so on.

In short, a 'happy lot'.... these 'Fijnen'.

And then we have the Fryans... Fry, like in 'free' (that's how you pronounce 'Fry'), they are NOT slaves to their priests and creed, they are 'liberal'.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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This sounds like the early splitting of the Jews , where half of them stood on a mountain and shouted across the valley all the blessings of God, and the other half stood on another mountain shouting back all the curses of God to the others.

why do we think the magi , and the majiar are different people they are more likely different branches of the same people, the Volga was a natural highway for the Rus in one direction , and so would be for people from the East in the other.

do you not see any probable connections with the Rus and CyRus , with the Yren , and the isles of Erin , the book called the lebor gabala Eren , the old irish book of the taling of Eren, the town of Budapest which was divided into two communities those of Pest (of - Est(a)) and those of Buda , dont you look at names like Gaumata and see Gautama Buda.

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This sounds like the early splitting of the Jews , where half of them stood on a mountain and shouted across the valley all the blessings of God, and the other half stood on another mountain shouting back all the curses of God to the others.

why do we think the magi , and the majiar are different people they are more likely different branches of the same people, the Volga was a natural highway for the Rus in one direction , and so would be for people from the East in the other.

do you not see any probable connections with the Rus and CyRus , with the Yren , and the isles of Erin , the book called the lebor gabala Eren , the old irish book of the taling of Eren, the town of Budapest which was divided into two communities those of Pest (of - Est(a)) and those of Buda , dont you look at names like Gaumata and see Gautama Buda.

I look at what the OLB tells us: there was no people called the 'Magiara', but there was a people called Finna. It's only their priests who were called Magiara and the headman of this caste of priests was called Magy.

And these Finna arrived in 2093 BCE, long before any MagYar showed up in Europe.

But to me it's really all poppycock. Just read what I posted about the "Fijnen": they fit the picture of the Finna like a glove.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I can hardly believe that, because the whole of the OLB describes the Celtic time before the Romans. Besides OLB states, that the Saxman [saks] Storo reigned over the haga fenna [Hoge Venen] and walda [Friese Wouden} and took care of Buda [?] and Mannagardaforda [?]. Ottema identified Mannagardaforda as Munster, but I would rather identify it as Munksgaard in Danmark. In that case Buda (Beuten ?) should be in Danmark as well. Both Buda and Mannagardaforda were Frisian setlements beyond the territory of Haga Fenna [Hogeveen in Drente, not in Belgium] and Walda, governed by a Saxman. The Haga Fenna and Walda make me think of the territory south of Groningen.

The ancient Frisian name may have been Bvda, and then the Romans came and wrote Bata - from what it sounded like to them.

I agree in that it would have been a liberating thing if we were able to link Hâga Fênna and Walda to the neighbouring communities Hoogeveen and De Wolden. I have found no reason to doubt that Mannagardaforda is Münster, though. But who knows, maybe we have been wrong all the time? Mannagardaforda could not be in Denmark, though - of the simple reason that it is written that it was in Saxanamarka [sachsen].

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.

Still, though, 'Abramelin's theory that Bvda may have been situated in the area of Bodensee may be of some interest - there you have the burg Bodman, the Altbodman burgh ruins and Burg Hals in close proximity to each other. But if we should look at names, the Bodenburg in Bad Salzdetfurth in Niedersachsen, and the burg Bodenlaube in Bad Kissingen in Bayern might be worth taking a look at also. There is a historical neighbourhood named Buda in the Belgian city of Courtray, but it is in a wrong place.

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<snip>

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.

<snip>

The Sûdar Flílânda cannot possibly be where you think it is (area around Aachen, Luik and Kassel) because there is no river called Fly/Vlie. Flyland is the area directly left, right and south of of this (former) river.

Ljvdburch = Leidse Burgh (in Leiden)

Kâtsburch = Kattenburg (in Amsterdam, Knul's idea)

Aken = ? I thought Ockenburg (in The Hague)

On this old map of the Netherlands you can see the Flie/Vlie river in the top-left corner of the country:

LandDerFriezen1851Ottema.jpg

Click thumbnail to enlarge:

post-18246-0-57383000-1362048616_thumb.j

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Location Aken:

From the OLB:

Fon Texland gvngon hja nêi Westflyland en sa allingen tha sê nêi Walhallagâra hin. Fon Walhallagâra brûdon hja allingen thêra sûder Hrênum al ont hja mith grâta frêse boppa thêre Rêne bi tha Marsâta kêmon hwêrfon vsa Apollânja skrêven heth. Tho hja thêr en stût wêst hêde, gvngon hja wither nêi tha delta. As hja nw en tid lông nêi tha delta offâren wêron al ont hja inna strêk fon thêre alda burch Aken kêmon, sind thêr vnwarlinga fjuwer skalka morth and naked uteklât.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bv

My translation into Dutch:

Van Texland gingen zij naa Westflyland en zo langs de zee naa Walhallagara heen. Van Walhallagara trokken zij op langs de zuider Rijn totdat zij met grote vreze boven de Rijn bij de Marsata kwamen waarvan onze Apollânia (ge)schreven heeft. Toen zij daar een tijd (ge)weest hadden/waren, gingen zij weder naa de delta. Als zij nu een tijd lang naa de delta op(ge)varen waren totdat ze in een strekke van de oude burght Aken kwamen, zijn daar onverwacht vier knechten/slaven vermoord en naakt uit(ge)kleed.

My translation into English:

From Texland they went to Westflyland and so along the sea to Walhallagara. From Walhallagara they pulled up along the South Rhine (the Waal?) until they - with great fear - arrived above the Rhine at the Marsata of whom our Apollânia has written. When they had stayed there some time, they returned to the delta. After sailing up the delta for a while and were within reach of the old burgh of Aken, four servants/slaves were murdered unawares and stripped naked.

Is the present-day city of Aken/Aachen located in the delta (or lowlands as Sandbach translated the word)?

I didn't think so.

It's also not anywhere near the Rhine.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Now why were these people called FINNA by the Fryans? They were not portrayed as a very happy people: they were slaves to their priests and even more to their creeds, melancholic, very formal....

This is from a book about the island of Texel:

Zo was het dorp Oosterend in twee kampen verdeeld - en het is dat tot op zekere hoogte nog wel - , te weten in het kamp van de 'fijnen' en in dat van de 'groven'. De 'fijnen' zijn de gereformeerden en orthodox hervormden, de 'groven' bestaan uit vrijzinnig hervormden, katholieken, doopsgezinden en onkerkelijken.

Such was the village Oosterend divided into two camps - and it is to some extent still -, namely in the camp of the 'fine (delicate)' and that of the 'rude'. The 'fine' are the Reformed and Orthodox Reformed, the 'rude' consist of liberal reformers, Catholics, Mennonites and unchurched.

http://books.google....ligieus&f=false

We still call certain strictly religious people 'Fijnen' (they mainly live in the Dutch 'Bible Belt'): they are not allowed to dance or listen to popular music, they are not allowed to watch television, they are not allowed to go out and have fun, go to a cinema or theater, they wear only or mainly black clothes, women are not allowed to wear pants, they are not allowed to do anything resembling work on Sundays, many walk with their heads bent down in submission, they follow the Bible to the letter, think that humans are basically sinners with little hope of salvation, their minister ("voorganger") is boss, vaccinations are forbidden, insurance is forbidden, the devil is everywhere and in everything, and so on.

In short, a 'happy lot'.... these 'Fijnen'.

And then we have the Fryans... Fry, like in 'free' (that's how you pronounce 'Fry'), they are NOT slaves to their priests and creed, they are 'liberal'.

.

That's all fine and dandy they have a similar name but it doesn't explain the existance of actual people called Finns and what the etymology of their name is, which could very well be just the same.

The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

Edited by The Puzzler

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The ancient Frisian name may have been Bvda, and then the Romans came and wrote Bata - from what it sounded like to them.

I agree in that it would have been a liberating thing if we were able to link Hâga Fênna and Walda to the neighbouring communities Hoogeveen and De Wolden. I have found no reason to doubt that Mannagardaforda is Münster, though. But who knows, maybe we have been wrong all the time? Mannagardaforda could not be in Denmark, though - of the simple reason that it is written that it was in Saxanamarka [sachsen].

Hâga Fênna cannot be the Hoge Venen in Belgium - that's right, because in that area you have the burghs Aken [Aachen], Ljvdburch [Liège] and Kâtsburch [Kassel] which all belonged to Sûdar Flílânda.

Still, though, 'Abramelin's theory that Bvda may have been situated in the area of Bodensee may be of some interest - there you have the burg Bodman, the Altbodman burgh ruins and Burg Hals in close proximity to each other. But if we should look at names, the Bodenburg in Bad Salzdetfurth in Niedersachsen, and the burg Bodenlaube in Bad Kissingen in Bayern might be worth taking a look at also. There is a historical neighbourhood named Buda in the Belgian city of Courtray, but it is in a wrong place.

However,

Ljudburg has been identified as Leyden, not as Liege.

Aken is not on the Rhine river. I have discussed earlier, that Aken could be The Hague, where the Dutch counts in the time of Hidde built a new castle. Ockenburg (The Hague) is a good alternative.

Katsburg could be identified as Katwijk (Brittenburg), which is more appropriate than Kattenburg (Amsterdam). Kassel is too far away.

The places you mention are in the area of the Twisklandar (Teutons).The Frisians had friendly relations with the Saxons. Friso and Saxo were partners in warfare. Hals (Holstein) is mentioned as friendly people as well.

The general idea behind this, is that you try to locate the places too far away from the Frisian homeland. We better concentrate on Saxony and Holstein.

By the way Munster is in Rhineland-Westfalen, not in Saxony.

Edited by Knul

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That's all fine and dandy they have a similar name but it doesn't explain the existance of actual people called Finns and what the etymology of their name is, which could very well be just the same.

The Icelandic Eddas and Norse sagas (11th to 14th centuries), some of the oldest written sources probably originating from the closest proximity, use words like finnr and finnas inconsistently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns

This is the etymology of "Finn" according to your link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#Etymology

It has no relationship with the explanation given in the OLB.

But the explanation I posted (the "Fijnen") fits perfectly.

Someone has been playing with names (Finn, Fijn), that's all.

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Ockenburg instead of Aken is indeed better, and it's perhaps much older than initially thought:

This is about the German Aachen:

De naam is afkomstig van van het Latijnse Aquisgranum dat in het Oudgermaanse Ahha werd. Aken heet in het Duits: Aachen, in het Frans Aix-la-Chapelle, in het Limburgs Aoke/Oche en in het Luxemburgs Oochen.

The name comes from the Latin Aquisgranum which became Ahha in Old Germanic. Aken is called Aachen in German, in French Aix-la-Chapelle, in the dialect of the province of Limburg Aoke/Oche and in Luxembourgish Oochen.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Aken_(stad)

http://en.wikipedia....acob_Westerbaen

http://www.haagsepoe...-en-ockenburgh/

Waar de naam Ockenburgh vandaan komt is niet bekend. Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd.

Het huidige Landgoed Ockenburg is omstreeks 1650 aangelegd in opdracht van de dichter en medicus Jacob Westerbaen. Wegen en groen werden in Classicistische landschapsstijl ontworpen. Het is goed mogelijk dat Westerbaen de naam van het verdwenen landgoed heeft overgenomen.

Na de dood van Westerbaen kwam Ockenburgh in handen van Maarten Pauw, bewindhebber van de V.O.C. en burgemeester van Delft. Zijn kleinkinderen lieten het Kleyne Paleis omstreeks 1720 afbreken en een nieuw landhuis bouwen. Dat landhuis bestaat nog steeds. Het is in 1845 verbouwd in (laat) Neo-Classicistische stijl en in die vorm is het tot op heden bewaard gebleven.

-

Where the name Ockenburgh comes from is not known. Some sources speak of an estate "Ockenberghe" in the 15th century that would have been near Wateringen, but was cleared at the beginning of the 80 years war.

The current Estate Ockenburg was built in 1650 by order of the poet and physician Jacob Westerbaen. Roads and greenery were in classicist style landscape design. It is possible that Westerbaen took over the name of the disappeared estate.

After the death of Westerbaen Ockenburgh came into the hands of Martin Peacock, governor of the Dutch United East India Company and Mayor of Delft. Around 1720 his grandchildren had the Kleyne Paleis (Small Palace) demolished and had a new house built. This house still exists. It was rebuilt in 1845 in the (late) Neo-Classicist style and in that form it is preserved to this day.

http://historie.hdpnet.nl/ock.htm

This "Ockenberghe" must have existed in the 14th century:

Dieric van Ockenberghe - 1329

http://www.historici...oorkonde/NH_406

Coat of Arms:

http://www.heraldica...ockenberghe.htm

Translated:

http://translate.goo...ockenberghe.htm

http://www.benwilbri...ogie/hoeven.htm

oudkaartjeockenburg.gif

http://bugs.ptenb.nl...et-landgoed.php

.

Edited by Abramelin

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<snip>

The general idea behind this, is that you try to locate the places too far away from the Frisian homeland. We better concentrate on Saxony and Holstein.

By the way Munster is in Rhineland-Westfalen, not in Saxony.

Quote from the OLB:

Ther Saxman Storo, Sytjas man, grêvetman ovir-a hâga fenna aend walda. Njvgun wâra is-er to hêrtoga, thaet is to hyrman, kêren. Tha burga Bvda aend Manna-gârda-forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the high fens and woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman . The burghs Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

The High Fens (French: Hautes Fagnes; German: Hohes Venn; Dutch: Hoge Venen), which were declared a nature reserve in 1957, are an upland area, a plateau region in the province of Liège, in the east of Belgium and adjoining parts of Germany, between the Ardennes and the Eifel highlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fens

http://www.naturpark...ohesvenn_eifel/

Manna-gârda-forda = Münster

Mimigernaford

http://de.wikipedia....ter_(Westfalen)

Mimigernaford - Mimegardeford. Die ursprünglichen Namen der Stadt Münster

(The original name of the city of Münster)

http://epub.uni-regensburg.de/24584/

<snip>

Menno, Münster is not at all that far away from Frisia:

In 1663 a conflict about the border between the (Catholic) Princebishopric of Münster and the (Calvinist) Principality of East Frisia (in German : Ostfriesland) turned violent; Princebishop Christoph Bernhard von Galen had the Hampoel and the Dieler Schanze occupied and the latter fortified.

In 1664, Dutch troops, supporting Prince Georg Christian of East Frisia, took the Dieler Schanze and restored her to the Prince.

No border treaty was concluded; when Münsteran Bailiff Alexander von Velen in 1710 had a house built on the Hampoel, East Frisian troops in 1712 destroyed it. In 1717 Münsteran and East Frisian regiments faced each other, ready to strike. As late as 1796, the border dispute was still regarded unresolved.

http://www.zum.de/wh...el16631664.html

=

And the borders between the Saxenmarken and Frisia shifted throughout the ages.

This is a map (Taaldacht site) I once posted:

saksemarken.jpg?w=300&h=230

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Sûdar Flílânda cannot possibly be where you think it is (area around Aachen, Luik and Kassel) because there is no river called Fly/Vlie. Flyland is the area directly left, right and south of of this (former) river.

Ljvdburch = Leidse Burgh (in Leiden)

Kâtsburch = Kattenburg (in Amsterdam, Knul's idea)

Aken = ? I thought Ockenburg (in The Hague)

On this old map of the Netherlands you can see the Flie/Vlie river in the top-left corner of the country:

LandDerFriezen1851Ottema.jpg

Click thumbnail to enlarge:

post-18246-0-57383000-1362048616_thumb.j

.

.

I have always thought of Westflílând, Âstflíland and Sûdar Flílânda as being the areas to the west, east and south of Flí and Flímâr, respectively.

Moreover, unlike the states to the west and to the east, Sûdar Flílanda is written in plural - which makes me think of separated areas, maybe areas between river streams.

Here is a map that probably is more reliable:

http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg - developed for the Nationale Onderzoeksagenda Archeologie.

Your theory is interesting, and should be investigated further, though.

From the context I regard 'the delta' as being the delta formed by the Alp Rhine as it flows into the Bodensee:

http://de.wikipedia....delta_(Bodensee)

And I think Leiden is Lydasburch, and not Ljvdburch.

Edited by Apol

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The Englsih Wiki doesn't explain much about this name, Mimigernaford/Mimigardeford, but the German one does:

Altsächsische Siedlung

Schätzungsweise seit dem 6. Jahrhundert lag im Bereich des Domplatzes die kleine sächsische Siedlung Mimigernaford. Die Sachsen, ursprünglich beheimatet im Raum Holstein, breiteten sich im 3. und 4. Jahrhundert über das Elbe-Weser-Dreieck in Richtung England und nach Süden aus. Die Herkunft des Stammesnamens westfalai, wie die westlichen Sachsen in den fränkischen Annalen bezeichnet werden, und sie sich auch wohl selbst bezeichnet haben, ist nicht genau geklärt. Eine Deutung verbindet den Wortstamm fal mit fahl, flachsfarben und bezieht ihn auf die Haarfarbe. Für die Namen der Siedlung Mimigernaford gibt es auch verschiedene Deutungen. Nach neueren Untersuchungen ist die Siedlung an der Furt über die Aa nach den Mimigernen benannt, den Sippenangehörigen eines Stammvaters namens Mimigern. Der Name wurde bis ins 10. Jahrhundert benutzt, allerdings häufig in der abgewandelten Form Mimigardeford.

Old Saxon settlement

It is estimated that since the 6th Century within the range of Domplatz/Cathedral Square there was the small Saxon settlement Mimigernaford. The Saxons, originally living in the Holstein area, spread, in the 3rd and 4 Century, across the Elbe-Weser triangle towards England and the south. The origin of the tribal name 'westfalai', as the Western Saxons were known in the Frankish annals and like they may have also called themselves, is not clearly understood. One interpretation connects the stem 'fal' with 'fahl' (= pale), flat, pale colors and relates it to their hair color. For the name of the settlement Mimigernaford there are different interpretations. According to recent studies, the village at the ford over the Aa was named after the Mimigerns, the family members of a patriarch named Mimigern. The name was used until the 10th century, though often in the modified form Mimigardeford

http://de.wikipedia...._Stadt_Münster

English Wiki:

In 793 Charlemagne sent out as missionary the Frisian Liudger (later canonized) to convert the Saxons with whom he had been battling, offering as headquarters his recently demolished Frankish stronghold of Mimigernaford ("ford over the Aa river"), at the crossroads of the road from Cologne and the road to Frisia. Liudger was a product of Utrecht and the York school of Ethelbert, which produced many of the clerics who served in Charlemagne's chancelry. He built his church and cloister on the right bank of the Aa, on the height called the Horsteberg: it was the monastery ("monasterium") from which Münster derives its name.

http://en.wikipedia....ory_of_Münster

.

Edited by Abramelin

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-1- I have always thought of Westflílând, Âstflíland and Sûdar Flílânda as being the areas to the west, east and south of Flí and Flímâr, respectively.

-2- Moreover, unlike the states to the west and to the east, Sûdar Flílanda is written in plural - which makes me think of separated areas, maybe areas between river streams.

Here is a map that probably is more reliable:

http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg - developed for the Nationale Onderzoeksagenda Archeologie.

Your theory is interesting, and should be investigated further, though.

-3- From the context I regard 'the delta' as being the delta formed by the Alp Rhine as it flows into the Bodensee:

http://de.wikipedia....delta_(Bodensee)

-4- And I think Leiden is Lydasburch, and not Ljvdburch.

-1- I always thought the same, and it is kind of logical.

-2- Could be, but they still should be located close to the other two and close to the Fly river, just like the Rhineland is near the Rhine.

-3- The delta is the lowlands lying between the rivers Rhine/Waal/Lek and the North Sea coast. If we are still talking about the Aken story, that is. As you know the whole of the Netherlands is nothing but a large delta, but Aken is in the foothills of the Ardennen, ie. not much lowland or delta.

-4- Let me ponder about that one, lol.

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You don't believe what exactly about the wheelbarrow?

I think it is funny - he, he... but of course, it's some sort of idea.

Quote from the OLB:

Ther Saxman Storo, Sytjas man, grêvetman ovir-a hâga fenna aend walda. Njvgun wâra is-er to hêrtoga, thaet is to hyrman, kêren. Tha burga Bvda aend Manna-gârda-forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the high fens and woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman . The burghs Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

The High Fens (French: Hautes Fagnes; German: Hohes Venn; Dutch: Hoge Venen), which were declared a nature reserve in 1957, are an upland area, a plateau region in the province of Liège, in the east of Belgium and adjoining parts of Germany, between the Ardennes and the Eifel highlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Fens

http://www.naturpark...ohesvenn_eifel/

Manna-gârda-forda = Münster

Mimigernaford

http://de.wikipedia....ter_(Westfalen)

Mimigernaford - Mimegardeford. Die ursprünglichen Namen der Stadt Münster

(The original name of the city of Münster)

http://epub.uni-regensburg.de/24584/

Bvda:

It's not just Bvda/Buda, it's the burgh of Buda or the Budaburgh.

It's the place after which the Bodensee is named.

Aus der Völkerwanderungszeit stammt nordöstlich des Dorfes auf halber Bergeshöhe bei der „Bodenburg“ ein alemannisches Reihengräberfeld

From the migration period northeast of the village at half height in the mountains near the "Bodenburg" originates an Alemannic cemetery

http://de.wikipedia....an-Ludwigshafen

http://en.wikipedia..../Lake_Constance

.

After all I think that Bvda couldn't have been in the Bodensee area, because when Apollânja visited there, it was the burgh-femme in New Freyjasburgh (NY.FRYA.S.BURCH) who informed her about the sea-dwellers there. Had there been a burgh in the Bodensee area, she would have heard it from the burgh-femme there; but we don't hear about another burgh-femme nor burgh in the area.

The site of New Freyjasburch was certainly Freiburg im Breisgau. It is conspicuous that the burgh isn't mentioned in the grietmen's list of states and burghs in Freyjasland (p. 5/10-28), while every single one of the other burghs are mentioned - except from Lydasburgh, which wasn't a femme-burgh, but a shelter for the hired African rowers. Accordingly, the original Freyjasburgh is called ALD.FRYASBURCH (Old Freyjasburgh) in the same list.

The reason for this was certainly that the Frisians were quite sure that the Magí would conquer their country after he had killed Adela. If, or when, that happened, their plan was to retreat to New Freyjasburgh and make it their new capital. Freiburg has a very specific position between the Rhine and the source of the Danube river; those two rivers are just a few miles apart in exactly that location. The Rhine flows to the North Sea, and the Danube to the Black Sea which leads to the Mediterranean Sea.

The plan of the Frisians was wise, because by moving there they were able to continue their indispensable sea trade. ("In.t fon ænd omme fâra lêid vs held" - "In the sailing to and from our prosperity lies" (pp. 112/32 - 113/1).)

New Freyjasburgh and Old Freyjasburgh are mentioned only those two times. In fact, what the Frisians feared didn't happen - the Magí infiltrated the Frisian population instead. And later writers are once more referring to the burgh at Texland as Fryasburch.

Edited by Apol

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A bit more info about the original name of Münster, Mimigernaford/Mimigardeford :

Teutonic Mythology Vol. 4 - Jacob W. Grimm

http://books.google....n -ebay&f=false

Muumlnster_zps4a0a3b13.jpg

That is a very interesting clip, 'Abramelin'. I'll study it tomorrow.

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I think it is funny - he, he... but of course, it's some sort of idea.

Kroder is an old Dutch/Frisian word for carrier/wheelbarrow.

The Little Dipper is also seen as a wheelbarrow, and Polaris is part of that constellation. And its rotation was used as a measure of time, like the OLB Kroder.

The Fryans were stargazers, as you will know when you read the description of the largest burgh/citadel, the one in Texland.

The OLB also mentions 'watchstars', another hint that they - or better, the one who wrote the OLB - were stargazers.

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Let us have a look at the OLB text once more. The author mentions five reeves (grêvetmanna), three of them are former sêkeningar (sea-kings), two of them were former hermana (hêrtoga) (commanders). The logic of this is, that the sea-kings come from areas adjacent to the sea and the commanders come from inland areas.

The sea-kings are:

1. Apol – Astflyland and Oviralindawrda + Ljvdgarda [Leeuwarden], Lindahem [Wolvega] and Stavja [stavoren] = modern Friesland.

2. Enoch – Westflyland and Texland + Waraburch, Medeasblik and Forana = modern West-Friesland

3. Foppo – Sjugun êlânda. = modern Zeeland

The inland-kings are:

4. Storo (Saxman) – Haga Fenna and Walda + Buda, Mannagardaforda (later in the book it is said to be a mistake for Mannagardawrda). = Overijssel, Drente, Achterhoek (Dutch Saxonian area)

5. Abelo – Suderflylanda + Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg = must be modern Zuid-Holland (South-Holland). Though the area is adjacent to the sea the people are no more sea-farers, because the Rhine was blocked by Dunes.

The story of the OLB deals with Astflyland and Westflyland, mainly Stavia and Medeasblik. The other areas east and south of Astflyland and Westflyland are less important.

+ indicates the main places in that area. So Ljvdgarda, Lindahem and Stavja in the area of Astflyland and Oviralindawrda, Waraburch, Medeasblik and Forana in the area of Westflyland and Texel. We know about the Domburg (Walhallagara) in Sealand. Following this line we should look for Buda and Mannagardaforda in the area of the Haga Fenna and Walda and we should look for Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg in the area of Syderflylanda.

So, I have to revise my views.

Edited by Knul

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Menno, Mannagardaforda could be Münster:

ÉR HÉDIK ANDA SÁXANA MARKA. TO THÉRE BURCH MÀNNA.GÁRDA.FORDA WÉST

I had been before in the Saxenmarken, at the Mannagardaforda burgh/citadel.

As I showed you, the Saxenmarken included Münster. And the old name for Münster, Mimigernaford / Mimegardeford, is too close to the OLB name, Mannagardaforda, to just forget about it.

map-oldsaxon.jpg

"5. Abelo – Suderflylanda + Aken, Ljvdburg and Katsburg = must be modern Zuid-Holland (South-Holland). Though the area is adjacent to the sea the people are no more sea-farers, because the Rhine was blocked by Dunes."

You seem to forget about villages like Scheveningen and Katwijk (Kadik) which were and still are fishing villages, ie: seafarers.

"Let us have a look at the OLB text once more. The author mentions five reeves (grêvetmanna), three of them are former sêkeningar (sea-kings), two of them were former hermana (hêrtoga) (commanders). The logic of this is, that the sea-kings come from areas adjacent to the sea and the commanders come from inland areas."

Remember where the Vikings, the real 'sea-kings', settled? Not just on the coasts, but far inland.

They followed the rivers.

And where is "Oviralindawrda" ? I haven't read that word in the OLB

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Fon sin êrosta wif hêder twên sviaringa bihalda, thêr sêr klok wêron. Hetto, that is hête, thene jongste skikt er as senda boda nêi Kattaburch thaet djap inna Saxanamarka lêid.

Of his first wife he still had two brothers-in-law, who were very daring. Hetto—that is, heat—the youngest, he sent as messenger to Kattaburgt, which lies far in the Saxsenmarken.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bu

So Apol may be right after all. He suggested "Kassel" in Germany.

Kassel:

The city's name is derived from the ancient Castellum Cattorum, a castle of the Chatti (a "Chattiburgh"), a German tribe that had lived in the area since Roman times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kassel

<snip>

Katsburg could be identified as Katwijk (Brittenburg), which is more appropriate than Kattenburg (Amsterdam). Kassel is too far away.

<>snip

Apparently it should be far away.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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And Menno, if you still have me put on ignore because I registered on a site of White Nationalists, don't worry: they have banned me already because I was 'too Jewish' to their taste (I told them who my grandfather - mother's side - was or might have been) and because I called them adolescents in battle with acne and frustrated because of lack of sex.

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