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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

That is not the right direction. They followed the Rhine untill the mouth at Leyden [Lydasburg] and from there north to Westflyland. Your idea is right, but the theory is, dat only in Roman times the Rhine and IJssel were connected by a Drusus-canal. This proofs that it was a boat-trip.

OK, I've spent the afternoon studying maps in the area, sorry I am not as familiar with them as you guys. I've got more information on them now.

I see the Oude Rhine, that comes out at Katwjik, past Leyden.

So they went up the Waal, from Wallahallagara/ entrance near Dordrecht - it goes past Tiel and joins the main Rhine at Emmerich, then head up past Bonn to the headwaters.

Then BACK - they come down towards the German Plain at Bonn, this is the beginning of the lowlands, pass Aachen 60km to the West of the Rhine, not exactly passing it directly but 'about' where it was - they then head back up the Old Rhine section past Leiden and out at Katwijk aan Zee (on my modern atlas map) - then head along the coast up to the Fly entrance (near Texel) past the Waraburgt to Alderga.

Also:

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

The whole area of the South Flyland (southern area of Zuiderzee)was Abelos juristiction - it included Aken, Luidberg (Leiden) and Katsburg - you think Katsburg is Katwjik?

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OK, I've spent the afternoon studying maps in the area, sorry I am not as familiar with them as you guys. I've got more information on them now.

I see the Oude Rhine, that comes out at Katwjik, past Leyden.

So they went up the Waal, from Wallahallagara/ entrance near Dordrecht - it goes past Tiel and joins the main Rhine at Emmerich, then head up past Bonn to the headwaters.

Then BACK - they come down towards the German Plain at Bonn, this is the beginning of the lowlands, pass Aachen 60km to the West of the Rhine, not exactly passing it directly but 'about' where it was - they then head back up the Old Rhine section past Leiden and out at Katwijk aan Zee (on my modern atlas map) - then head along the coast up to the Fly entrance (near Texel) past the Waraburgt to Alderga.

Also:

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

The whole area of the South Flyland (southern area of Zuiderzee)was Abelos juristiction - it included Aken, Luidberg (Leiden) and Katsburg - you think Katsburg is Katwjik?

Well done Puzzler. Just a minor detail you could not know: The Old Rhine at Katwijk was blocked by sand dunes. So, on the way down to the Rhine they traveled as far as Walhallagara and from there to the lower Rhine, called Waal. Similarly on the way back they could not leave the Rhine at Katwijk because of the sand dunes, but had to travel on inland waterways to the north. So they did not get to the Fly mouth, but to Forana (Vroonen, which is a lost city near Alkmarum-Alkmaar) and from there to Medeasblik (Medemblik) and crossing the Fly river to Stavere (Stavoren).

Well, at Katwijk was an old castle Brittenburg. This castle has disappeared, whether in sea or under the sand dunes. See my website: http://www.rodinbook.nl/indexbrittenburg.html .

In Leyden (where passes the Old Rhine) there is an old castle too, which still exists. s. http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burcht_van_Leiden . In OLB Leyden is called Ljudburg, but is also indicated as Lyda's burg because of the black rowers, that live there. As the Old Rhine was blocked by sand dunes at Katwijk they could no more reach the sea and stayed in the place. By the way, the same happened at Alkmarum, where the former river Hegge was blocked by sand dunes at Egmond (Hegge mouth). There too the black rowers could not return to sea and stayed there.

Now we discuss here, if the third castle Aken is in the same area of Katwijk and Leyden or all the way down to the Rhine area in Germany. Both Abramelin and me think of Ocken-burg, where in Roman times existed a strenghold like the one at Katwijk (Brittenburg). In 1650 they built a new castle or house at Ockenburg, but that castle or house has been broken down. Now it is a golfer's place. Anyway Ocken-burg in Southern Flyland is a good alternative for Aachen in Germany. By the way from the above story you see that they traveled by boat over rivers and inland waterways.

As OLB speaks of pre-Roman times, the three canals that Drusus digged did not yet exist. One canal connected the middle Rhine at Leyden with the Helinium at Rotterdam, the second canal connected the Rhine with the IJssel and (according to Ottema) a third canal connected the IJssel with the Flie river as is indicated on his map).

Edited by Knul
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"Vroonen, which is a lost city near Alkmarum-Alkmaar"

It isn't lost at all:

Sint-Pancras, dat vroeger Vroonen heette

St. Pancras, formerly called Vroonen

http://www.westfriesgenootschap.nl/archivering/themas/langedijk/langedijk_historie.php

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Ockenburg is not from Roman times but maybe from the 14th century:

Ockenburg instead of Aken is indeed better, and it's perhaps much older than initially thought:

This is about the German Aachen:

De naam is afkomstig van van het Latijnse Aquisgranum dat in het Oudgermaanse Ahha werd. Aken heet in het Duits: Aachen, in het Frans Aix-la-Chapelle, in het Limburgs Aoke/Oche en in het Luxemburgs Oochen.

The name comes from the Latin Aquisgranum which became Ahha in Old Germanic. Aken is called Aachen in German, in French Aix-la-Chapelle, in the dialect of the province of Limburg Aoke/Oche and in Luxembourgish Oochen.

http://nl.wikipedia....iki/Aken_(stad)

http://en.wikipedia....acob_Westerbaen

http://www.haagsepoe...-en-ockenburgh/

Waar de naam Ockenburgh vandaan komt is niet bekend. Sommige bronnen spreken van een landgoed "Ockenberghe" dat in de 15e eeuw in de buurt van Wateringen zou hebben gelegen, maar aan het begin van de 80 jarige oorlog is ontruimd.

Het huidige Landgoed Ockenburg is omstreeks 1650 aangelegd in opdracht van de dichter en medicus Jacob Westerbaen. Wegen en groen werden in Classicistische landschapsstijl ontworpen. Het is goed mogelijk dat Westerbaen de naam van het verdwenen landgoed heeft overgenomen.

Na de dood van Westerbaen kwam Ockenburgh in handen van Maarten Pauw, bewindhebber van de V.O.C. en burgemeester van Delft. Zijn kleinkinderen lieten het Kleyne Paleis omstreeks 1720 afbreken en een nieuw landhuis bouwen. Dat landhuis bestaat nog steeds. Het is in 1845 verbouwd in (laat) Neo-Classicistische stijl en in die vorm is het tot op heden bewaard gebleven.

-

Where the name Ockenburgh comes from is not known. Some sources speak of an estate "Ockenberghe" in the 15th century that would have been near Wateringen, but was cleared at the beginning of the 80 years war.

The current Estate Ockenburg was built in 1650 by order of the poet and physician Jacob Westerbaen. Roads and greenery were in classicist style landscape design. It is possible that Westerbaen took over the name of the disappeared estate.

After the death of Westerbaen Ockenburgh came into the hands of Martin Peacock, governor of the Dutch United East India Company and Mayor of Delft. Around 1720 his grandchildren had the Kleyne Paleis (Small Palace) demolished and had a new house built. This house still exists. It was rebuilt in 1845 in the (late) Neo-Classicist style and in that form it is preserved to this day.

http://historie.hdpnet.nl/ock.htm

This "Ockenberghe" must have existed in the 14th century:

Dieric van Ockenberghe - 1329

http://www.historici...oorkonde/NH_406

Coat of Arms:

http://www.heraldica...ockenberghe.htm

Translated:

http://translate.goo...ockenberghe.htm

http://www.benwilbri...ogie/hoeven.htm

oudkaartjeockenburg.gif

http://bugs.ptenb.nl...et-landgoed.php

.

Edited by Abramelin

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About where Aldland was located and when it was destroyed:

Ottema assumed that Aldland went down during the Cimbrian Flood, and he thought that was in 2194 BCE.

He also said that a large stretch of land extended west of Denmark, across the North Sea.

He was right, but that was thousands of years before the 2194 BCE event described in the OLB.

Doggerland got catastrophically flooded around 6150 BCE (a tsunami that lasted for maybe 2 days), and all that was left after that was Dogger Island, the later Doggers Bank.

Dogger Island existed until 5000 BCE.

What never fails to amaze me is that Overwijn (the third Dutch translator of the OLB, after Ottema and Wirth) assumed a date of 6250 BCE for the submergence of Doggerland.

He guessed it or what?? Radiocarbon dating didn't even exist back then, or when he wrote his book about the OLB, it was still in its infancy.

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OK, I've spent the afternoon studying maps in the area, sorry I am not as familiar with them as you guys. I've got more information on them now.

<snip>

You look at old Dutch/Belgium maps with "foreign eyes", and so, maybe, you notice something we Dutch/Belgians/South-Africans (Knul, Otharus, Van Gorp, Alewyn, whoever, and me) fail to notice.

That's why I asked you to study them.

Jeesh, I sound like a teacher now, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Where was this Ockenburg Abe speaks of?

I found Hagenvorde nearby on that Ijssel route back to the Fly - could be Aken-vorde Aken-ford or something, the old map has a cross there, like a citadel was there. http://upload.wikime...nheirs-1748.jpg

But the Twisklanders had crossed the Rhine and so sounds as if they were near Aachen - just coming into the lowlands, in the journey back from seeing the Marsaten.

Wijchen, where Batenburg is sounds somewhat like Aken. It's probably not on the right route but I have no idea where you guys are going quite frankly...

Ockenburg is nothing but a few centuries old estate in The Hague, Puzz.

And the one who built/designed (?? what's the word) it was a poet who probably derived the name from an older (14th century) estate with the same name in Wateringen (village near The Hague).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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This sounds like the early splitting of the Jews , where half of them stood on a mountain and shouted across the valley all the blessings of God, and the other half stood on another mountain shouting back all the curses of God to the others.

why do we think the magi , and the majiar are different people they are more likely different branches of the same people, the Volga was a natural highway for the Rus in one direction , and so would be for people from the East in the other.

do you not see any probable connections with the Rus and CyRus , with the Yren , and the isles of Erin , the book called the lebor gabala Eren , the old irish book of the taling of Eren, the town of Budapest which was divided into two communities those of Pest (of - Est(a)) and those of Buda , dont you look at names like Gaumata and see Gautama Buda.

No Dr. NO, I don't see any connection between Rus and Cyrus, except for part of the latter name.

The Japanese people have a word, "so", and it means exactly the same as the English "so". They say "Hay", and Scots say "Aye"

Now what does that mean?

That people from Britain/ Scotland and Japan were in contact many ages ago??

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You look at old Dutch/Belgium maps with "foreign eyes", and so, maybe, you notice something we Dutch/Belgians/South-Africans (Knul, Otharus, Van Gorp, Alewyn, whoever, and me) fail to notice.

That's why I asked you to study them.

Jeesh, I sound like a teacher now, lol.

.

That's OK, it's good advice and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I found Wyringen on the island above Medeasblik, so that area must be the old Almanaland and noticed that at Alkmaer it has KEN, maybe a form of Aken?

wieringe.jpg

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt.

I'm not sure if this is right link to that map, sorry: http://upload.wikime...sonius_1658.jpg

Here's Vroonen/Forana and I followed how Knul has given the route back to the Flymeer.

vroonen.jpg

Does anyone know where Alderga would be? Amsterdam/Amster River looks too big to not be something...?

Edited by The Puzzler

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About where Aldland was located and when it was destroyed:

Ottema assumed that Aldland went down during the Cimbrian Flood, and he thought that was in 2194 BCE.

He also said that a large stretch of land extended west of Denmark, across the North Sea.

He was right, but that was thousands of years before the 2194 BCE event described in the OLB.

Doggerland got catastrophically flooded around 6150 BCE (a tsunami that lasted for maybe 2 days), and all that was left after that was Dogger Island, the later Doggers Bank.

Dogger Island existed until 5000 BCE.

What never fails to amaze me is that Overwijn (the third Dutch translator of the OLB, after Ottema and Wirth) assumed a date of 6250 BCE for the submergence of Doggerland.

He guessed it or what?? Radiocarbon dating didn't even exist back then, or when he wrote his book about the OLB, it was still in its infancy.

The submersion of Âtland happened in the year 2193 BC - not in 2194 BC. By utilizing our current Gregorian Calendar the division 'before' and 'after' Christ or Our Time creates an extra year 0 when calculating mathematically from one side to the other, using the numbering at each side. It is because the Gregorian Calendar starts with year 1 instead of year 0. The Julian Calendar, which was the one in use when Hidde Oera Linda wrote his letter in AD 1256, didn't do that, it started with year 0 - and that calendar was utilized until AD 1582.

Accordingly, Hidde wrote his letter in AD 1255 according to our Gregorian Calendar - not in AD 1256; and Liko Ovira Linda wrote his letter in the year AD 802 - not in AD 803.

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"Vroonen, which is a lost city near Alkmarum-Alkmaar"

It isn't lost at all:

Sint-Pancras, dat vroeger Vroonen heette

St. Pancras, formerly called Vroonen

http://www.westfries...jk_historie.php

Well, maybe it was kinda lost....

The village was founded in the 14th century, after the village of Vronen was destroyed in a battle between Holland and West Friesland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sint_Pancras

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The submersion of Âtland happened in the year 2193 BC - not in 2194 BC. By utilizing our current Gregorian Calendar the division 'before' and 'after' Christ or Our Time creates an extra year 0 when calculating mathematically from one side to the other, using the numbering at each side. It is because the Gregorian Calendar starts with year 1 instead of year 0. The Julian Calendar, which was the one in use when Hidde Oera Linda wrote his letter in AD 1256, didn't do that, it started with year 0 - and that calendar was utilized until AD 1582.

Accordingly, Hidde wrote his letter in AD 1255 according to our Gregorian Calendar - not in AD 1256; and Liko Ovira Linda wrote his letter in the year AD 802 - not in AD 803.

That's true when you believe the OLB is as ancient as it purports to be.

I don't believe that at all.

The 2194 BCE date is copied from 19th century, Frisian Volks-almanacs, based on Biblical chronology.

+++

EDIT:

This is from the "Friesche Volksalmanak" from 1839:

2193BC-FriescheVolksalmanak-1839.jpg

The first underlined line says: "The year after the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1839"

The second underlined line says: "Since the Flood: 4032"

1839-4032=2193 / no year zero, so it becomes 2194 BC

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Well, maybe it was kinda lost....

The village was founded in the 14th century, after the village of Vronen was destroyed in a battle between Holland and West Friesland.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Sint_Pancras

Dresden was bombed to smithereens at the end of WWII, but we still know where it is, lol.

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That's OK, it's good advice and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I found Wyringen on the island above Medeasblik, so that area must be the old Almanaland and noticed that at Alkmaer it has KEN, maybe a form of Aken?

It's not KEN, but KEN-NEMERLAND.

Too tired to reply to the rest of your post.

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'Abramelin' had an idea that the burgh of Bvda might have been situated in the Bodensee area (Boden = Bvda). A good idea. I said that the burgh couldn't have been that high up the Rhine, because it was the burgh-femme of New Freyjasburgh [Freyburg] who told Apollânja about the the lake-dwellers when she made her visit there. And New Freyjasburgh was a bright new burgh at that time.

But 'Abramelin' gave me an idea. I have always wondered why the Frisians regarded the whole stretch of the Rhine as their domain, but at the same time don't mention it among their grietenies. In a sudden I saw it clearly, though. Of course it is mentioned! And Boden has to do with Bvda.

Earlier I have exhibited in this blog my opinion that the Bvda People were the Batavians. We have their name from the Romans only - who wrote Bata- instead of Bvda-, according to how they apprehended the name, and to their pronounciation. I then suggested that the area of the Bvda People/Batavians stretched some way up the Rhine and its adjoining rivers. Now it struck me that the administrative area of the burgh of Bvda of course reached all the way up to the Bodensee - it's the grieteni of Walda!

This made me want to search for more Büderichs, Bodenburgs and Büdingens along the Rhine and its tributaries. I have used a couple of days for for that search, and i have made a map. Here it is:

http://i1305.photobucket.com/albums/s543/holavli/rhineIho_zpsc51e8aae.jpg

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It's not KEN, but KEN-NEMERLAND.

Too tired to reply to the rest of your post.

Yes, I see it now, gosh I'm blind.

Not that I thought it was 'the' Aken anyway but just thought I'd point it out - now I know, the leek masters.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I'm thinking something - Storo is a Saxman.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the Hoogefennen and Wouden. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman (commander). The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

The lands towards Saxony are not covered by the Grevetmen (you have around Flyland) and Munster is in an eastward direction so I'm actually thinking Buda might be towards Denmark, nearer Saxon lands, above Munster - Eastern Frisia area.

The land of the Saxons is quite wild, I'm sure there would be woods and it is in the higher marches/fens, I recall and that area seems more likely to have had a Grevetman.

Does anyone know off-hand the mentions of Buda in the OLB to save me having to scroll through it for the 4697th time?

Edited by The Puzzler

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The submersion of Âtland happened in the year 2193 BC - not in 2194 BC. By utilizing our current Gregorian Calendar the division 'before' and 'after' Christ or Our Time creates an extra year 0 when calculating mathematically from one side to the other, using the numbering at each side. It is because the Gregorian Calendar starts with year 1 instead of year 0. The Julian Calendar, which was the one in use when Hidde Oera Linda wrote his letter in AD 1256, didn't do that, it started with year 0 - and that calendar was utilized until AD 1582.

Accordingly, Hidde wrote his letter in AD 1255 according to our Gregorian Calendar - not in AD 1256; and Liko Ovira Linda wrote his letter in the year AD 802 - not in AD 803.

Accordingly you live in 2012, we in 2013.

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That's OK, it's good advice and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I found Wyringen on the island above Medeasblik, so that area must be the old Almanaland and noticed that at Alkmaer it has KEN, maybe a form of Aken?

wieringe.jpg

Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure, which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland that he induced Teunis to build a warehouse at the mouth of the Flymeer. Afterwards this place was called Almanaland, and the market where they traded at Wyringen was called Toelaatmarkt.

I'm not sure if this is right link to that map, sorry: http://upload.wikime...sonius_1658.jpg

Here's Vroonen/Forana and I followed how Knul has given the route back to the Flymeer.

vroonen.jpg

Does anyone know where Alderga would be? Amsterdam/Amster River looks too big to not be something...?

Almanaland = Almenum (nowadays part of Harlingen), just opposite of Wieringen. s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almenum . Alderga is a river, which ends in Hoorn. s. http://home.tiscali.nl/~wr2777/Hoorn-Geschiedenis.html

Velius (1740) schrijft op p. 9: "….Hoorn ook geen dorp, maer alleenlijk slechts een sluise met een overtoom, daerdeur het lant sijn binnen-water plach te lossen…." "Daer was eertijds (soo geseyd is) in den dijk een groote sluyse met een overtoom; aen d'oostsijde van den Roode-steen (so onse markt tegenwoordelijk genoemt werd) dienende den landlieden om het binnen water uyt te lossen, en ook dagelijks voor een in en uytvaert tot de zee. Binnen liep de Tocht daer op, die doen de Gou genoemt werd, en noch heden by de Koepoort is….."

Edited by Knul
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Accordingly you live in 2012, we in 2013.

Yes, I'm a little slow

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I'm thinking something - Storo is a Saxman.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the Hoogefennen and Wouden. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman (commander). The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

The lands towards Saxony are not covered by the Grevetmen (you have around Flyland) and Munster is in an eastward direction so I'm actually thinking Buda might be towards Denmark, nearer Saxon lands, above Munster - Eastern Frisia area.

The land of the Saxons is quite wild, I'm sure there would be woods and it is in the higher marches/fens, I recall and that area seems more likely to have had a Grevetman.

Does anyone know off-hand the mentions of Buda in the OLB to save me having to scroll through it for the 4697th time?

To which grietenij should then the Upper Rhine belong? It was a part of Freyjasland, because Apollânja "travelled through the land" for a year, like her fellow burgh-femmes when they were installed into their positions. The Bvdavians controlled the Rhine and its tributaries.

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I'm thinking something - Storo is a Saxman.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the Hoogefennen and Wouden. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman (commander). The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

The lands towards Saxony are not covered by the Grevetmen (you have around Flyland) and Munster is in an eastward direction so I'm actually thinking Buda might be towards Denmark, nearer Saxon lands, above Munster - Eastern Frisia area.

The land of the Saxons is quite wild, I'm sure there would be woods and it is in the higher marches/fens, I recall and that area seems more likely to have had a Grevetman.

Does anyone know off-hand the mentions of Buda in the OLB to save me having to scroll through it for the 4697th time?

The grietenies are all mentioned on page 5 in the manuscript.

Here are the lines about Bvda:

ðer sax.man. Storo Sytja.s man. grêvetman ovir.a Hâga Fênna ænd Walda. njvgun wâra is.er to hêrtoga. ðæt is to hyr.man kêren. ða burga Bvda ænd Manna.garda.forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxon Storo, Sytja’s husband – grietman of the Hâga fênna ['The High Moors'] and Walda ['The Woods']. Nine times he was elected to duke – that is to army-leader. The burghs Bvda and Mannagardaforda are under his care.

Edited by Apol

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This was one of the best posts in this thread.

(Made me want to finally join.)

It is worth reading again.

Thank you, 'Otharus', for your nice words, and welcome back to the site.

I remember your comment when I joined it for the first time - you said that my name Apol was good chosen. It warmed my heart at that time,

and I remember it very well.

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However,

Ljudburg has been identified as Leyden, not as Liege.

Aken is not on the Rhine river. I have discussed earlier, that Aken could be The Hague, where the Dutch counts in the time of Hidde built a new castle. Ockenburg (The Hague) is a good alternative.

Katsburg could be identified as Katwijk (Brittenburg), which is more appropriate than Kattenburg (Amsterdam). Kassel is too far away.

The places you mention are in the area of the Twisklandar (Teutons).The Frisians had friendly relations with the Saxons. Friso and Saxo were partners in warfare. Hals (Holstein) is mentioned as friendly people as well.

The general idea behind this, is that you try to locate the places too far away from the Frisian homeland. We better concentrate on Saxony and Holstein.

By the way Munster is in Rhineland-Westfalen, not in Saxony.

I found this post when I Googled something so will just respond here to say that Abe meant that Munster was in Saxonmarken in the OLB. Saxonmarken starts at Groningen and appears to encompass down to Munster and above Twiskland, but still are Fryans lands.

I had been before in the Saxenmarken, at the Mannagardaforde castle (Munster).

You also said in another recent post in reply to me:

Almanaland = Almenum (nowadays part of Harlingen), just opposite of Wieringen. s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almenum . Alderga is a river, which ends in Hoorn. s. http://home.tiscali....s.html</span>

That's great, thanks, it does seem where they'd be.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The grietenies are all mentioned on page 5 in the manuscript.

Here are the lines about Bvda:

ðer sax.man. Storo Sytja.s man. grêvetman ovir.a Hâga Fênna ænd Walda. njvgun wâra is.er to hêrtoga. ðæt is to hyr.man kêren. ða burga Bvda ænd Manna.garda.forda send vnder sin hod.

The Saxon Storo, Sytja’s husband – grietman of the Hâga fênna ['The High Moors'] and Walda ['The Woods']. Nine times he was elected to duke – that is to army-leader. The burghs Bvda and Mannagardaforda are under his care.

I know about that line - wondered if there was any more but I'll check anyway - apart from Buda/Jessos part.

I think your idea is very valid and I checked your map you made - but at the same time it seems a bit logical, as Abe already noticed - that Buda might be around the Saxenmarken, where Munster also is described as being.

I like to check everything.

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