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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

It is right that the book is about a declining civilization or culture, but it was doomed to decline because it missed something, which the invaders provided - first and foremost the Christian doctrines of "turning of the other cheek", which at last stopped the internal wars, and of humanitarianism.

More specific: the decline of matriarchal civilisation.

I'm not sure if they missed something before the arrival of the Magy.

It is clear that there were at times conflicts between the various female leaders.

As for Christian doctrines, let's have a look at some bible quotes below.

This OLB fragment is significant IMO.

Manuscript page 153 (What Friso did further):

INNA BOSM THES FOLKIS ANTSTONDON NW TWA PARTIJA.

THA ALDA AND ARMA WILDON WITHER ÉNE MODER HA.

MEN THAT JONGK.FOLK THAT FVL STRIDLUST WÉRE.

WILDE.NE TAT JEFHA KANING HA.

THA ÉROSTA HÉTO HJARA SELVA MODER HIS SVNA

AND THA OTHERA HÉTON HJARA SELVA TAT.HIS SVNA.

MEN THA MODER.HIS SVNA NE WRDE NAVT NI MELD.

My translation:

In the folkbosom, two parties now arose.

The old and poor wanted to have a mother again,

but the youngfolk that was militant,

wanted to have a dad or king.

The first named themselves mother-his sons,

and the other named themselves dad-his suns.

But the mother's suns were ignored (or: stood no chance).

Sandbach p. 207:

Among the people there now existed two parties.

The old and the poor wished to have the mother again,

but the young and the warlike

wished for a father and a king.

The first called themselves mother's sons,

the others father's sons,

but the mother's sons did not count for much;

=======

I have often wondered why the Judeochristian bible contains such nasty anti-women propaganda.

Personally at this point, I believe that the Abrahamic religions were created, partly to destroy the pre-judean matriarchal tradition.

In any case, it looks like there was a problem with women. Did they have to be tamed?

I am still researching and learning.

Some bible-quotes about the position of women, to illustrate this.

Old Testament

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

New Testament (letters from Apostle Paul)

1 Timothy 2:8

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control,

not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Ephesians 5:22

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Corinthians 11

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short.

But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

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More specific: the decline of matriarchal civilisation.

I'm not sure if they missed something before the arrival of the Magy.

It is clear that there were at times conflicts between the various female leaders.

As for Christian doctrines, let's have a look at some bible quotes below.

This OLB fragment is significant IMO.

Manuscript page 153 (What Friso did further):

INNA BOSM THES FOLKIS ANTSTONDON NW TWA PARTIJA.

THA ALDA AND ARMA WILDON WITHER ÉNE MODER HA.

MEN THAT JONGK.FOLK THAT FVL STRIDLUST WÉRE.

WILDE.NE TAT JEFHA KANING HA.

THA ÉROSTA HÉTO HJARA SELVA MODER HIS SVNA

AND THA OTHERA HÉTON HJARA SELVA TAT.HIS SVNA.

MEN THA MODER.HIS SVNA NE WRDE NAVT NI MELD.

My translation:

In the folkbosom, two parties now arose.

The old and poor wanted to have a mother again,

but the youngfolk that was militant,

wanted to have a dad or king.

The first named themselves mother-his sons,

and the other named themselves dad-his suns.

But the mother's suns were ignored (or: stood no chance).

Sandbach p. 207:

Among the people there now existed two parties.

The old and the poor wished to have the mother again,

but the young and the warlike

wished for a father and a king.

The first called themselves mother's sons,

the others father's sons,

but the mother's sons did not count for much;

=======

I have often wondered why the Judeochristian bible contains such nasty anti-women propaganda.

Personally at this point, I believe that the Abrahamic religions were created, partly to destroy the pre-judean matriarchal tradition.

In any case, it looks like there was a problem with women. Did they have to be tamed?

I am still researching and learning.

Some bible-quotes about the position of women, to illustrate this.

Old Testament

Genesis 3:16

To the woman he said,

“I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing;

in pain you shall bring forth children.

Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

New Testament (letters from Apostle Paul)

1 Timothy 2:8

I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling;

likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control,

not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Ephesians 5:22

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

1 Corinthians 11

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven.

For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short.

But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

For man was not made from woman, but woman from man.

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Yes, 'gestur', it is surely a lot of things to be said about this.

I recommend that we are discussing the OLB not in terms of religion but in an unbiased - as far as it is possible - scientific way.

That's much more interesting, and if we mean that the manuscript is telling an authentic history or if we mean that it is a hoax, is of less importance.

My contribution was a sort of offspring from the path. Sorry for that.

I really enjoy this site, and the differences between the various persons contributing is only a plus - it gives the possibility to look at things from different angles.

But what you say:

"I have often wondered why the Judeochristian bible contains such nasty anti-women propaganda.

Personally at this point, I believe that the Abrahamic religions were created, partly to destroy the pre-judean matriarchal tradition.

In any case, it looks like there was a problem with women. Did they have to be tamed?"

...is really an interesting question. I think you are into something here. Anyway it is about power.

Edited by Apol

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Father's sons is interesting - even though Thioth is in the OLB - the other thing is Father is actually 'tat'. Which really then sounds like a very basic form of teut.

When, in consequence, quarrels and disputes arose in the households, and complaints were made about it, they said every man is the father (feeder) of his household, therefore he shall be master and judge over it. Thus arose arbitrariness, and as the men ruled over their households the kings would do over their people. When the kings had accomplished that, they should be called fathers of the people, they had statues of themselves made, and erected in the churches beside the statues of the idols, and those who would not bow down to them were either killed or put in chains. Your forefathers and the Twisklanders had intercourse with the kings, and learned these follies from them. But it is not only that some of your men have been guilty of stealing titles, I have also much to complain of against your wives. If there are men among you who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda, there are also women who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya. Because they have borne children, they call themselves mothers; but they forget that Frya bore children without having intercourse with a man. Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders of their honourable title (with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality), but they do the same with the honourable titles of their fellow-creatures. There are women who allow themselves to be called ladies, although they know that that only belongs to the wives of princes. They also let their daughters be called maagden, although they know that no young girls are so called unless they belong to a citadel. Yon all fancy that you are the better for this name-stealing, but you forget that jealousy clings to it, and that every wrong sows the seed of its own rod. If you do not alter your course, in time it will grow so strong that you cannot see what will be the end. Your descendants will be flogged by it, and will not know whence the stripes come

Man-power: It kinda answers itself here:

The first called themselves mother’s sons, the others father’s sons, but the mother’s sons did not count for much; because there were many ships to build, there was a good time for all kinds of workmen. Moreover, the sea-rovers brought all sorts of treasures, with which the maidens were pleased, the girls were pleased, and their relations and friends.

Men became important. They could build ships and do heavy labour, which needed doing at the time, they sailed and sailing was bringing in treasures that enchanted the maidens as well as everyone else, Friso was being a good, but typically sly King, who was ruling over his people and becoming more important than the folk mothers, whose grip was being lost also by the new Kings associations with the powerful priests, a male dominated area.

The Greeks also contributed to the loss of a womans place in society. Rome accepted Christianity eventually and the Mother's role, even there, was made redundant.

Males dominated society at the time. I think the folk-mothers lost their ruling power of intelligence, freedom and fair but ancient laws by Kings and priests who powered their rule by greed, lies, deception, slavery and making their own rules. Being fair and wise doesn't make you rich and powerful.

In the Levant the cult of Asherah was competition and also a threat to those wishing to worship just the male God - even Fryans had Wralda.

Fryans would not turn Mothers into Goddesses, as the Nyhellenia/Athena example shows.

Let's not forget the part we should give out best attention to.

What do you think the priests did then? That I must tell you, and you must give your best attention to it. Moreover, you must keep guard against their acts and their tricks with all the strength that Wr-alda has given you.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Thinking more on Munster and it being a fairly recent town, I'm trying to think of some other candidates for Mannagardawrda.

Mannheim? It might not be old enough either but it is recorded from 766. It's in the Baden Rhine area.

Early history

The name of the city was first recorded as Mannenheim in a legal transaction in 766, surviving in a twelfth-century copy in the Codex Laureshamensis from Lorsch Abbey. The name is interpreted as "the home of Manno", a short form of a Germanic name such as Hartmann or Hermann.[2] Mannheim remained a mere village throughout the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim

But it's near to the Neckar River and Ludwigshafen, which is older.

Early history

In antiquity, Celtic and Germanic tribes settled in the Rhine Neckar area. During the 1st century B.C. the Romans conquered the region, and a Roman auxiliary fort was constructed near the present suburb of Rheingönheim.

The Middle Ages saw the foundation of some of Ludwigshafen's future suburbs, including Oggersheim, Maudach, Oppau and Mundenheim; most of the area, however, remained swampland, its development hindered by seasonal flooding of the Rhine river.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ludwigshafen

Swampland would be fens.

Munster might be earlier than I thought and maybe another early Saxon town Paderborn is Bvda. It goes against what I thought would work linguistically with bvda being purse. Pader might be path (from pad) the river path. It's still hard to get pad to bud - so unless the v indicates a letter a in Bvda....I dunno.

In 690, two priests called Ewald the Black and Ewald the Fair set out from Northumbria to convert their distant kin in Old Saxony to Christianity. It is recorded that at this time Old Saxony was divided into the ancient dioceses of Münster, Osnabrück, and Paderborn. However, by 695 the pagan Saxons had become extremely hostile to the Christian priests and missionaries in their midst and began to realize that their aim was to convert their over-lord and destroy their temples and religion

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Old_Saxony

I think Abe's Budesheim is a very good candidate for Bvda otherwise. Hard to get much info on it though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCdesheim

Edited by The Puzzler

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Thinking more on Munster and it being a fairly recent town, I'm trying to think of some other candidates for Mannagardawrda.

Mannheim? It might not be old enough either but it is recorded from 766. It's in the Baden Rhine area.

Early history

The name of the city was first recorded as Mannenheim in a legal transaction in 766, surviving in a twelfth-century copy in the Codex Laureshamensis from Lorsch Abbey. The name is interpreted as "the home of Manno", a short form of a Germanic name such as Hartmann or Hermann.[2] Mannheim remained a mere village throughout the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim

But it's near to the Neckar River and Ludwigshafen, which is older.

Early history

In antiquity, Celtic and Germanic tribes settled in the Rhine Neckar area. During the 1st century B.C. the Romans conquered the region, and a Roman auxiliary fort was constructed near the present suburb of Rheingönheim.

The Middle Ages saw the foundation of some of Ludwigshafen's future suburbs, including Oggersheim, Maudach, Oppau and Mundenheim; most of the area, however, remained swampland, its development hindered by seasonal flooding of the Rhine river.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ludwigshafen

Swampland would be fens.

Munster might be earlier than I thought and maybe another early Saxon town Paderborn is Bvda. It goes against what I thought would work linguistically with bvda being purse. Pader might be path (from pad) the river path. It's still hard to get pad to bud - so unless the v indicates a letter a in Bvda....I dunno.

In 690, two priests called Ewald the Black and Ewald the Fair set out from Northumbria to convert their distant kin in Old Saxony to Christianity. It is recorded that at this time Old Saxony was divided into the ancient dioceses of Münster, Osnabrück, and Paderborn. However, by 695 the pagan Saxons had become extremely hostile to the Christian priests and missionaries in their midst and began to realize that their aim was to convert their over-lord and destroy their temples and religion

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Old_Saxony

I think Abe's Budesheim is a very good candidate for Bvda otherwise. Hard to get much info on it though.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Büdesheim

Now this is coincidence: i was reflecting on Buda (historic part) of city Kortrijk (mentionned earlier by Apol and Abe) and the etymologic link with the 'buidel' (purse) meaning in OLB.

It is said Buda in Kortrijk is derived from Buda like in Budapest (more like the out(er) side). But for me Buda in Kortrijk is really in the meaning of buidel (enclosed by the water in this case).

What then (just hypothesis) could be a possible Mannagardawrda in the neighbourhood? About the city Menen is said one possible origine:

  • volgens Kan. Desmet (1864): Menheim: onder Frankische invloed, een Germaanse nederzetting langs de Leie (cfr. Manheim in Duitsland)

And when reflecting all this, Puzzler is posting about Manheim :-)

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Now this is coincidence: i was reflecting on Buda (historic part) of city Kortrijk (mentionned earlier by Apol and Abe) and the etymologic link with the 'buidel' (purse) meaning in OLB.

It is said Buda in Kortrijk is derived from Buda like in Budapest (more like the out(er) side). But for me Buda in Kortrijk is really in the meaning of buidel (enclosed by the water in this case).

What then (just hypothesis) could be a possible Mannagardawrda in the neighbourhood? About the city Menen is said one possible origine:

  • volgens Kan. Desmet (1864): Menheim: onder Frankische invloed, een Germaanse nederzetting langs de Leie (cfr. Manheim in Duitsland)

And when reflecting all this, Puzzler is posting about Manheim :-)

Interesting but I'd think wherever Mannagardawrde is, it would be in the Saxenmarken.

How about some of these Iron Age Saxon settlements?

http://archaeology.about.com/cs/ironagesites/a/feddersen.htm

Maybe not early enough again for that particular one.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Thanks for your opinion Apol.

I like the Batavian idea but somehow the words aren't working for me. batavian is said to come from 'bad/bat'=good to better - in Frisian bet or betera:

bet-er-a

19, afries., Adj.: nhd. bessere; ne. better

This is just not going through to Buda imo. But I'm certainly open to trying some more.

What I did find was Bautzen area, with a BUD sound. In Saxony. But maybe it's too far East...

Bautzen (German pronunciation: [ˈbaʊtsən] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); Upper Sorbian: Budy¨in [ˈbudɨʃin] (13px-Speaker_Icon.svg.png listen); Lower Sorbian: Budy¨yn [ˈbudɨʃɨn], Czech: Budy¨ín, Polish: Budziszyn) is a hill-top town in eastern Saxony, Germany,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bautzen

Goda is also a place in the same area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6da

Then I'm thinking of Gotland (again) - maybe even it could be a related name. Godasburgh.

Yes, one theory says that Batavi is a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water").

But nobody really knows.

The Old Frisian bod means 'possession'. The Norwegian word bosted means a 'place of living'. In Norwegian the related word by means 'city', in Swedish it means 'a small place'. The Roman word Batavi is not reliable as a real source, because it might be a distortion.

Edited by Apol

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Yes, one theory says that Batavi is a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water").

But nobody really knows.

The Old Frisian bod means 'possession'. The Norwegian word bosted means a 'place of living'. In Norwegian the related word by means 'city', in Swedish it means 'a small place'. The Roman word Batavi is not reliable as a real source, because it might be a distortion.

bod is a good find - they lead to buda words. Like bode that I said before. Note bodel is much like budel and it's the o/u/V that is different - so Bvda could imo be based in this word.

bod

40, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Gebot, Angebot, Aufgebot; ne. order (N.), offer

(N.); Vw.: s. go-d-es-, lan-d-, -skip, -strÆ-d, -thing; Hw.: vgl. an. boOE, ae. bod, ahd.

bot*; Q.: S, R, H, W, E, Jur, AA 203; E.: germ. *buda-, *budam, st. N. (a),

Gebot; s. idg. *b

heudh-, V., wach sein (V.), wecken, beobachten, erkennen,

erkennen machen, Pokorny 150; W.: saterl. bad; L.: Hh 10b, Hh 136a, Hh 154, Rh

655b, AA 203

bod-a

18, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Bote, Beauftragter; ne. messenger; Vw.: s.

deken-, go-d-es-, se-nd-e-; Hw.: s. un-bod-ad; vgl. an. boOEi (1), ae. boda, anfrk.

bodo, as. bodo, ahd. boto; Q.: R, E, H, W; E.: germ. *budæ-, *budæn, *buda-,

*budan, sw. M. (n), Bote, Verkünder; s. idg. *b

heudh-, V., wach sein (V.), wecken,

beobachten, erkennen, erkennen machen, Pokorny 150; W.: nfries. bode, baade,

M., Bote; L.: Hh 10b, Rh 136a, Rh 656a

*bod-ad

, afries., Adj.: Vw.: s. un-; E.: s. biõd-a

bæ-del

19, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. bewegliche Habe, Vermögen, Erbschaft, Bodel;

ne. property (N.), heritage (N.), movables (N. Pl.); Vw.: s. in-, mê-n-, -âs-k-e, -dê-l,

-ê-th, -riuch-t, -thing, -thing-ia; Hw.: vgl. as. bædal*, mnd. bodel, plattd. bödel,

böel; Q.: W; E.: germ. *budla-, *budlam, *buþla-, *buþlam, st. N. (a), Haus,

Wohnung, Hof; s. idg. *b

heu-, *bheøý-, *bhøõ-, *bhøÐ-, *bhÅu-, *bhð-, *bheøh2-, V.,

schwellen, wachsen (V.) (1), gedeihen, sein (V.), werden, wohnen, Pokorny 146;

W.: nostfries. budel, bodel; L.: Hh 10b, Rh 656a

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Thinking more on Munster and it being a fairly recent town, I'm trying to think of some other candidates for Mannagardawrda.

Mannheim? It might not be old enough either but it is recorded from 766. It's in the Baden Rhine area.

Early history

The name of the city was first recorded as Mannenheim in a legal transaction in 766, surviving in a twelfth-century copy in the Codex Laureshamensis from Lorsch Abbey. The name is interpreted as "the home of Manno", a short form of a Germanic name such as Hartmann or Hermann.[2] Mannheim remained a mere village throughout the Middle Ages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim

But it's near to the Neckar River and Ludwigshafen, which is older.

Early history

In antiquity, Celtic and Germanic tribes settled in the Rhine Neckar area. During the 1st century B.C. the Romans conquered the region, and a Roman auxiliary fort was constructed near the present suburb of Rheingönheim.

The Middle Ages saw the foundation of some of Ludwigshafen's future suburbs, including Oggersheim, Maudach, Oppau and Mundenheim; most of the area, however, remained swampland, its development hindered by seasonal flooding of the Rhine river.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Ludwigshafen

Swampland would be fens.

Munster might be earlier than I thought and maybe another early Saxon town Paderborn is Bvda. It goes against what I thought would work linguistically with bvda being purse. Pader might be path (from pad) the river path. It's still hard to get pad to bud - so unless the v indicates a letter a in Bvda....I dunno.

In 690, two priests called Ewald the Black and Ewald the Fair set out from Northumbria to convert their distant kin in Old Saxony to Christianity. It is recorded that at this time Old Saxony was divided into the ancient dioceses of Münster, Osnabrück, and Paderborn. However, by 695 the pagan Saxons had become extremely hostile to the Christian priests and missionaries in their midst and began to realize that their aim was to convert their over-lord and destroy their temples and religion

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Old_Saxony

I think Abe's Budesheim is a very good candidate for Bvda otherwise. Hard to get much info on it though.

http://en.wikipedia....¼desheim

There are a lot of candidates for Bvda if one shall look at the name only:

Büderich in Wesel

Büderich in Meerbusch near Düsseldorf

Büderich in Werl

Büderich (Péry) in Switzerland

Büecke at Möhnesee

Budingswolde (Dijkhuizen) in Drenthe

Bodman at the Bodensee

Bodolz at the Bodensee

Bodenburg near Bad Salzdetfurth

Botenlauben, Bad Kissingen

Bodendorf (now Bad Bodendorf), Sinzig, Rheinland-Pfalz

Bodenheim, Mainz-Bingen, Rheinland-Pfalz

Budenheim, Mainz-Bingen, Rheinland-Pfalz

Büdesheim (Biddesem), Bingen am Rhein

Büdesheim, Schöneck in Hessen

Bodersweiler, Baden-Württemberg

Bodenberg, Schladern, Windeck

Büdenholz, Brachbach

Bodenthal north of Bingen, Rheinland-Pfalz

Buding in Moselle, France

Budersberg, Luxembourg

Büdingen in Hessen

The densest concentration of Büde-, Bode-, Bude- names is in the Bingen area of Rheinland-Pfalz

rhineIho_zpsc51e8aae.jpg

Edited by Apol
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There are a lot of candidates for Bvda if one shall look at the name only:

The densest concentration of Büde-, Bode-, Bude- names is in the Bingen area of Rheinland-Pfalz

However, which of these Buda''s or Boden's belongs to the Frisian grieteny called Haga Fenna and Walda, listed between Eastflyland and Southflyland ? West-Flyland + Texel contains ca. 1000km2, East-Flyland ca. 5.800 km2, Zeeland 3.000 km2. Your area of Haga Fenna and Walda + Southflyland ca. 180.000 km2. Rather disproportionate, I think. The whole of the Frisian area was ca. 16.000 km2.

Edited by Knul

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No, this is what the OLB tells us:

These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Eastflyland ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ("ovir-a") the Lindaoords. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the High Fenns and Woods. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman. The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the South Flylands. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

Enoch, Dywcke’s husband; Grevetman over Westflyland and Texel. He was chosen nine times for sea-king. Waraburg, Medeasblik, Forana, and Fryasburg are under his care.

Foppe, Dunros' husband; Grevetman over the Seven islands. He was five times sea-king. The town Walhallagara is under his care.

It never says in that area.

Yes, I am not crazy, I know that is how one should maybe interpret it, but that is not what it has to mean.

And look at how I translated the part of Apol, Adela's husband; I wonder how you would translate "ovir-a".

.

Apol, Adelas man, Thria iser sêkening wêsen, nw is-er grêvetman over Ast-flylând aend ovir-a Linda-wrda. Tha bvrga Ljvdgârda, Lindahêm, aend Stâvja send vnder sin hod.

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Eastflyland ON THE OTHER SIDE OF ("ovir-a") the Lindaoords. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

OK, that was wrong: it's simply "grevetman of Ast-flylând AND OF the Linda-wrda".

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Frans Burman: Eenige Nieuwe Aenmerkingen, page 31:

BOUD. Men zegt boudspreeken voor stout, onbeschroomd spreeken, en het wordt veel gezegd van die geene die hoog opheffen en laeg lacten vallen: dit komt van het oud Fransch woord Baud, welk vrolyk beteekende, en ook stout en onversaegd. Froissart Liv. III. ch. 72. p. 192.

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However, which of these Buda''s or Boden's belongs to the Frisian grieteny called Haga Fenna and Walda, listed between Eastflyland and Southflyland ? West-Flyland + Texel contains ca. 1000km2, East-Flyland ca. 5.800 km2, Zeeland 3.000 km2. Your area of Haga Fenna and Walda + Southflyland ca. 180.000 km2. Rather disproportionate, I think. The whole of the Frisian area was ca. 16.000 km2.

I ask again:

Why should Apollânja go all the way to the Bodensee while travelling through the Land?

I would suppose that the Land means Fryaslând.

Edited by Apol

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I ask again:

Why should Apollânja go all the way to the Bodensee while travelling through the Land?

Because the Frisians owned the Rhine and adjacent land, but this ownership did not belong to one grieteny in particular, but to all of the grietenies together. Similarly the colonies in Denmark, England and in the Mediterranean belonged to the Frisian state (so to say).

MS47-49: 4. . Tha owira thissar rin strama wrdon tomet algadur thrvch vs folk bisêton , ak tha fjelda an thju Rêne fon t êna enda alon et ôre ende thâ .

Edited by Knul

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Apol, I'd really like to know where you think the OLB "Lumka-makia" is located.

Knul thought it was Helgoland (or one of its cliffs), I thought it might be Lemster in Friesland.

Of all the place names mentioned in the OLB, this one is most difficult to locate.

We have discussed this many pages on end (part -1-) but I don't think we were able to pin it down.

+++

EDIT:

Four old posts of mine from part -1- :

http://www.unexplain...95#entry4175716

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175853

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175934

http://www.unexplain...50#entry4159651

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Apol, I'd really like to know where you think the OLB "Lumka-makia" is located.

Knul thought it was Helgoland (or one of its cliffs), I thought it might be Lemster in Friesland.

Of all the place names mentioned in the OLB, this one is most difficult to locate.

We have discussed this many pages on end (part -1-) but I don't think we were able to pin it down.

+++

EDIT:

Four old posts of mine from part -1- :

http://www.unexplain...95#entry4175716

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175853

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4175934

http://www.unexplain...50#entry4159651

.

You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

Edited by Knul

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You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

Guess I haven't any startling new ideas to put forward. My opinion is that Lumkamâkja was in or near Emden. If Âst-Flílând stretched all the way to Weser at that time, it may have been in Emden. If it stretched only to Ems, it may have been in Westeremden, which is situated at the eastern side of the river mouth, barely 10 km west of Delfzijl. This area was settled far back in time. The dolmen (hunebed) of ca. 3400 BC which was found in Heveskesklooster near Delfzijl attests to that:

hevekeskloosterhunebed_zps156629fd.jpg

Westeremden was variously called Emutha, Emetha, Amuthon, Emethe and Emedun anciently. The prefix Wester- was added at a later time to separate the place from Emden. It has been named Westeremden since AD 1379. One knows that Emden has existed since the 8th century AD, and that it at this early stage was a small settlement on a werf. But Westeremden is also an ancient site, though the oldest written evidence for its existence is from AD 944. Gozewijn Acker Stratingh et al (1869) writes that one will have it that the village of Westeremden is the ancient harbour and market place of Amisia (lit. "Emsia") which Ptolemy mentions in his Geography (2:10). They write that what is certain, is that Westeremden was a foremost, prospering place in ancient times. But it lost its former prosperity completely as a result of catastrophes of different sorts, and that it through the growth of Emden on the other side of Ems as a reward now must be content with calling itself Westeremden.

I know that the site of Lutkemūte on Jacob van Deventer’s map of Groningen (1558) once was mentioned as a possible site for Lumkamâkja at this blog. I had detected the same place myself and made the same thoughts. I dont know.

nederlandgroningenjacobvandeventer1558ho_zps3340ba77.jpg

Lutkemūte was a terp near Baamsum in the present village of Termunten, which on this map is named Grote Mute. The name possibly means 'Little Mute'.

Edited by Apol

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You explained Lumkamakia=Lemster because you supposed the E-mude in that regio instead of E-mude at Embden. We discussed the rivers Linde and Tjonger in that area, not a supposed river Ee. Maybe Apol can find the birthplace of Wodin / Wodan / Odin in North mythology. I only know that Wodin was honoured on Helgoland, but Helgoland is not exactly the E-mude at Embden.

I already posted about Odin's birthplace : it's Odense in Denmark.

And there WAS a little river Ee near Lemster. It's gone now, but you can still find it on ancient maps.

AND we did discuss it.

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Guess I haven't any startling new ideas to put forward. My opinion is that Lumkamâkja was in or near Emden. If Âst-Flílând stretched all the way to Weser at that time, it may have been in Emden. If it stretched only to Ems, it may have been in Westeremden, which is situated at the eastern side of the river mouth, barely 10 km west of Delfzijl. This area was settled far back in time. The dolmen (hunebed) of ca. 3400 BC which was found in Heveskesklooster near Delfzijl attests to that:

hevekeskloosterhunebed_zps156629fd.jpg

Westeremden was variously called Emutha, Emetha, Amuthon, Emethe and Emedun anciently. The prefix Wester- was added at a later time to separate the place from Emden. It has been named Westeremden since AD 1379. One knows that Emden has existed since the 8th century AD, and that it at this early stage was a small settlement on a werf. But Westeremden is also an ancient site, though the oldest written evidence for its existence is from AD 944. Gozewijn Acker Stratingh et al (1869) writes that one will have it that the village of Westeremden is the ancient harbour and market place of Amisia (lit. "Emsia") which Ptolemy mentions in his Geography (2:10). They write that what is certain, is that Westeremden was a foremost, prospering place in ancient times. But it lost its former prosperity completely as a result of catastrophes of different sorts, and that it through the growth of Emden on the other side of Ems as a reward now must be content with calling itself Westeremden.

I know that the site of Lutkemūte on Jacob van Deventer’s map of Groningen (1558) once was mentioned as a possible site for Lumkamâkja at this blog. I had detected the same place myself and made the same thoughts. I dont know.

nederlandgroningenjacobvandeventer1558ho_zps3340ba77.jpg

Lutkemūte was a terp near Baamsum in the present village of Termunten, which on this map is named Grote Mute. The name possibly means 'Little Mute'.

Yes, Lutkemūte was another possibility, near Westeremden.

But all the discussed possible locations have names that are not easily or not at all derivable from Lumka-makia.

Like I once said: it looks like a pun on a real name or a nickname. Here we sometimes jokingly call Rotterdam "Rotjeknor", but you will have a hard time finding that nickname in a document.

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North of the city of Norden, just southeast of the Norden-Norddeich airport, there is an area named Lintelermarsch - a possible candidate for Lumka.mâkja?

Many places have disappeared in these areas. My suggestion is that the site of Lumkamâkja now lies underwater.

'Abramelin' has suggested that the suffix -mâkja might be a variant of the Old Frisian mēta, meytya or meythia - which is an old variant of the English meet and the Norwegian møte. Combined with Goffe Jensma's remark that the word 'Lumkamâkja' sounds like Luimpjemakum (2006, p. 177), the etymology might be "a merry meeting place (tradepost)", which may be a good and proper name for a place.

Edited by Apol

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I already posted about Odin's birthplace : it's Odense in Denmark.

And there WAS a little river Ee near Lemster. It's gone now, but you can still find it on ancient maps.

AND we did discuss it.

I regard the title 'Odin' as being a sort of invention.

Wodin had become very popular among the Frisians after the raid against the Magí. The super-sly Magí wanted to make use of this popularity for his own goal, and suggested Wodin to be their own king as well as the king of the Frisians. It was a trick, of course. After he had used Wodin as a sperm donor for getting a grandson - who then would be of a Frisian royal lineage, he placed himself as a "bailiff and guardian or cousellor" over him (→ power!), and did away with Wodin - saying to the people that Wodin "was taken up among their gods, and that he from there ruled over them". The Magí's grandson was certainly named Wodin (Odin) - and possibly a whole line of Magís. The name was used in an attempt of getting political confidence with the Frisiands, because it sounded good in their ears.

The mythological Odin came from the southeast - the sagas says from Tracia, and he was of Trojan ancestry. In other words, he was a Magí. All Magís were, or became, 'Odins', because the name was used so often that it simply became a title.

Edited by Apol

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Interesting observation, it sounds true to me.

In relation to the name "Wodin":

8. Ambiguous "WOOD": timber, forest and fury???

The following shows how "wood" (in OLB: "WOD") was ambiguous and must have been the root of the name "WODIN".

In fragments 1 and 4, "WOD" refers to wood/ forest (Dutch: woud, German: Wald).

In fragments 6, 9, 10, 11 and 12, it means wood/ timber (Dutch: hout, German: Holtz).

In fragments 2, 3, 5, 7 and 8, the word WODIN or WODAN (that are most probably derived from WOD) refers to anger, rage or fury (Dutch: woede, German: Wut)

1. [049/09]

THÉR TO BOPPA HÉDON WI THA NÔMA. LAND.SÁTON MÁR.SATA ÀND HOLT JEFTA WOD.SÁTA

[O+S p.71]

Daarenboven [71]hadden wij de namen Landzaten, Marzaten en Hout- of Woudzaten

Besides these we had the names Landzaten (natives of the land), Marzaten (natives of the fens), and Woud or Hout zaten (natives of the woods)

2. [074/06]

BIFIRA SÉKROPS WODIN WRDE ÀND OVERS BIGVNDE

[O+S p.103]

voor dat Cecrops woedend werd en anders begon

before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind

3. [085/03]

ÉL WEL SÉIDE THENE MAGÍ MITH VRBORGNE WODIN

[O+S p.103]

Heel goed [wel], zeide de Magy met verkropte [verborgen] woede

Very good [well], said the Magy, swelling with [hidden] rage

4. [096/29]

THÉR HIPTH HJA NÉI.T KRÍL.WOD. GRIPT ELSNE TRÉON

[O+S p.135]

Daarop ijlt zij naar het Krijlwoud , grijpt elzentakken

Then she ran to the Krylwood and got some elder branches

5. [104/26]

STORNE WIND KÉM TO BEK JETA WODANDER AS TO FORA

[O+S p.145]

De stormwind kwam terug, woedender als te voren

The [storm-] wind grew stronger [came back, more raging than before]

6. [107/20]

KRÁN.BOGA. TODEKTH MITH WOD ÀND LÉTHER

[O+S p.147]

kraanbogen, gedekt met hout en leder

crossbows [?] covered with wood and leather

7. [120/24]

THA ALEXANDRE FORNOM

THÀT IM SÁN.E GRÁTE FLÁTE VNTFÁRA WAS.

WÀRTH ER WODIN.LIK.

TO SWÉRANDE HI SKOLDE ALLE THORPA AN LOGHA OFFERJA

JEF WI NAVT TO BEK KVMA NILDE.

[O+S p.165]

Toen Alexander vernam

dat zulk eene groote vloot hem ontvaren was,

werd hij als woedend,

zweerende dat hij alle dorpen aan de vlam zoude offeren,

zoo wij niet wilden terug komen

When Alexander heard

that such a large fleet had escaped him,

he became furious,

and swore that he would burn [offer] all the villages [to flames]

if we did not come back

8. [122/19]

MEN ALEXANDER WÉRE WODIN

[O+S p.167]

Maar Alexander was woedend

but Alexander was furious

9. [124/01]

TWA.HONDRED ÉLEPHANTA. THVSEND KÉMLUN.

TOLÉDEN MITH WODEN BALKUM.

RÁPUM ÀND ALLERLÉJA ARK

[O+S p.169]

200 olifanten, 1000 kameelen,

[beladen] met houten balken,

roopen (touwen) en allerlei gereedschap

200 elephants, 1000 camels,

[loaded with] a quantity of timber,

ropes, and all kinds of implements

10. [148/14]

HWAND TO STÁVEREN ÀND ALLINGEN THÀT ALDER.GÁ

THÉR WRDON THA BESTA WÉRSKÉPA MAKED.

FON HERDE ÉKEN WOD THÉR NIMMERTHE NÉN ROT AN NE KVM

[O+S p.201]

Want te Staveren en langs het Alderga,

daar werden de beste oorlogschepen gemaakt

van hard eiken hout, daar nimmer verrotting in komt

because at Stavere, [and] along the Alberga,

the best ships of war were built

of hard oak which never rots

11. [150/02]

BURCH.WÉPNE. WOD. HIRBAKEN STÉN.

TIMBER.LJUD MIRTSELÉRA ÀND SMÉDA

[O+S p.203]

burgtwapenen, hout, hardgebakken steenen,

timmerlieden, metselaren, en smeden

weapons for wall defences, wood, [hardbaked] bricks,

carpenters, masons, and smiths

12. [198/30]

HJARA WÉPNE SEND WODEN BOGA

[O+S p.239]

hunne wapenen zijn houten bogen

Their arms are wooden bows

Source: http://fryskednis.bl...01_archive.html

Edited by gestur

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"Odin" seems to be derived from "OD":

(page 6, Forma Skédnise)

RING AS HJA RIP WÉRON KRÉJON HJA FRUCHDA AND NOCHTA ANDA DRAMA.

WR.ALDA.S OD TRAD TO RA BINNA.

AND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA AND TWILIF TOGETHERA.

This word is associated to life-force or fertility, as discussed before.

so, originally Odin and Wodin may have been diferent names with different meanings.

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Yes, Lutkemūte was another possibility, near Westeremden.

But all the discussed possible locations have names that are not easily or not at all derivable from Lumka-makia.

Like I once said: it looks like a pun on a real name or a nickname. Here we sometimes jokingly call Rotterdam "Rotjeknor", but you will have a hard time finding that nickname in a document.

Your idea that Lumkamâkja could have been just on the opposite side of the Flímâr is very interesting. One has swallowed Ottema's translation and the place-names with it. The clue is of course that the text says that Wodin lived in Lumkjamâkja at the rivermouth in Âst-Flílând - like there was only one rivermouth there, while Tünis and Inka lived by their paternal uncle in Aldergâmvde.

As said before, I have placed Aldergâmvde in Hoorn, among other things because from the 500 BC palaeographical map - if it is right - Enkhuizen (proposed by Jensma) may have been situated in the middle of a long peninsula stretching eastwards into the Flímâr at that time.

http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg

http://commons.wikim...ex_leg_copy.jpg

(Wish they had made maps of 2000 BC and 1000 BC also)

I have found a small river named De Ie on the Google map - is it that one you mean?

Yes, Lumkamâkja is truly the most difficult place to locate.

Edited by Apol

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