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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

The OLB word for "naked" is....."nâked".

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs (?) grew fruits and nuts (Dutch: vruchten en noten)

But the two words are also used in a metaphorical sense in the OLB, and then they mean "vreugde en ge-neugten" or "joy and pleasures".

+++

EDIT:

Personally I think that those "nochta" growing on trees and shrubs should be "nota". No old Germanic word has a -CH- or - K- in it. Only in Latin we have "nux".

.

Another word for 'naked', used in the OLB, is blât (Dutch: bloot)

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No, he claimed it was located in Belgium.

But his etymology..... well, I don't agree with it.

Here is a Dutch Wiki page about him (and I hope you can read Dutch) :

http://nl.wikipedia....Albert_Delahaye

But like I told Otharus. long ago, he was someone to be reckoned with, He was no idiot.

.

Delahaye based his theory on the transgression and moved everything to northern France, mainly Picardie. However, the transgression theory has been modified by geologists. Besides Delahaye did not explain why everything had been moved to the northern France and not to the higher areas of the Netherlands and/or Germany.

Edited by Knul

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Delahaye based his theory on the transgression and moved everything to northern France, mainly Picardie. However, the transgression theory has been modified by geologists.

That's what I said:

Hmmm.... do you know of Delahaye's theories?

The Nifterlake site Knul registered on is all about Delahaye.

One of Delahaye's claims is that much of the Netherlands didn't even exist between 200 and 1000 CE, based on the now discarded theory of the Dunkirk Transgressions.

According to Delahaye half of the Netherlands was flooded, uninhabitable.

But it has no relevance to the OLB. The OLB narrative is about a period long before 200 CE.

That is, of course, if you believe the OLB narrative to be a true account of the history of ancient Europe...

I don't.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Another word for 'naked', used in the OLB, is blât (Dutch: bloot)

You also said this:

Personally I think that those "nochta" growing on trees and shrubs should be "nota". No old Germanic word has a -CH- or - K- in it. Only in Latin we have "nux".

I tend to agree. There is nòch as 'enough' though. I am aware nochte is still/night in the dictionary. Maybe it's not fruit and nuts but an 'abundance of fruit' ...? There is no line over the o in the OLB word transliteration though...

næch

, afries., Adv.: nhd. genug; ne. enough (Adv.); Vw.: s. e-; E.: germ. *næga-,

*nægaz, Adj.: nhd. genug; s. idg. *ene¨-, *ne¨-, *en¨-, *¤¨-, *h

1ne¨-, V., reichen

----------------------------------------

How are they getting nuts from nochta anyway?

Edited by The Puzzler

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I remembered that Knul once said that "vruchten en genoegens" ("fruits and delights") is a Biblical expression

http://www.unexplain...35#entry4197419

++

EDIT:

Well, it's not in the Bible itself (I think), but it appears to be a Dutch explanation of an episode in the Bible.

From the pdf Knul linked to:

3e. Met het verlies van dit leven werd Adam gedreigd

ingeval van ongehoorzaamheid, als het grootste verlies en

de vreeselijkste ellende die hem ooit overkomen kon. Adam

verloor vele dingen, namelijk het geheele beeld Gods, vereeniging

met God, gerechtigheid, vrede, troost, het paradijs

en al de vruchten en genoegens van hetzelve.

English:

3rd. With the loss of this life Adam was threatened in

case of disobedience, as the greatest loss and

the most terrible misery that could ever happen to him. Adam

lost many things, namely the whole image of God, union

with God, righteousness, peace, comfort, paradise

and the same with all the fruits and delights..

.

Maybe that word could also be translated as 'abundance'. As in a cornucopia.

genoegens

enough

enough (adj.) dictionary.gif c.1300, from Old English genog, a common Germanic formation (cf. Old Saxon ginog, Old Frisian enoch, Dutch genoeg, Old High German ginuog, German genug, Old Norse gnogr, Gothic ganohs). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=enough

Edited by The Puzzler

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Delahaye based his theory on the transgression and moved everything to northern France, mainly Picardie. However, the transgression theory has been modified by geologists. Besides Delahaye did not explain why everything had been moved to the northern France and not to the higher areas of the Netherlands and/or Germany.

Delahaye did explain many of his views, at least I could find some: roughly (you can agree or disagree, but saying he didn't try to explain is not correct)

  • an elaborate studie on sources where it became clear that much of northern France history recordings seemed to be equal with Dutch/German history.
  • Delahaye did explain why in his eyes many of these tales originated and should be placed in Pas-De-Calais and Picardië (same as Saxonia: original not in Germany, but where the Litus Saxonicum was):
  • the conquest between Romans on the border of Gaul and Germania took place where still the language border is: northern France.
  • there was no reason to defend Gaul from incoming Germans in the middle of Germany (sic!), this was needed where the Germans lived nearest Gaul: see Roman-Germanic language border
  • The Franks (stronghold in northern France Noyon) did not need to fight Frisians some hundred kilometres north but right where they lived:
  • There is not much of Roman and Frankish archeoligical evidence in Germany
  • Charlemagne kind of forced the conquered people in those areas to cultivate new land won on the sea in northern Germany (not the other way around).

In that sens: much to discuss and against common views but explained: ->no Germanic migration from north to south, but from south to the new land in the north.

There are still some discussions on the transgressions but they don't change the conclusion of habitabillity: not continous. Seems hard to accept for some.

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Delahaye did explain many of his views, at least I could find some: roughly (you can agree or disagree, but saying he didn't try to explain is not correct)

  • an elaborate studie on sources where it became clear that much of northern France history recordings seemed to be equal with Dutch/German history.
  • Delahaye did explain why in his eyes many of these tales originated and should be placed in Pas-De-Calais and Picardië (same as Saxonia: original not in Germany, but where the Litus Saxonicum was):
  • the conquest between Romans on the border of Gaul and Germania took place where still the language border is: northern France.
  • there was no reason to defend Gaul from incoming Germans in the middle of Germany (sic!), this was needed where the Germans lived nearest Gaul: see Roman-Germanic language border
  • The Franks (stronghold in northern France Noyon) did not need to fight Frisians some hundred kilometres north but right where they lived:
  • There is not much of Roman and Frankish archeoligical evidence in Germany
  • Charlemagne kind of forced the conquered people in those areas to cultivate new land won on the sea in northern Germany (not the other way around).

In that sens: much to discuss and against common views but explained: ->no Germanic migration from north to south, but from south to the new land in the north.

There are still some discussions on the transgressions but they don't change the conclusion of habitabillity: not continous. Seems hard to accept for some.

9200000009598943.jpg

http://www.boekenroute.nl/gasten/gtn1Boek.aspx?BoekID=32356

Edited by Knul

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Maybe that word could also be translated as 'abundance'. As in a cornucopia.

genoegens

enough

enough (adj.) dictionary.gif c.1300, from Old English genog, a common Germanic formation (cf. Old Saxon ginog, Old Frisian enoch, Dutch genoeg, Old High German ginuog, German genug, Old Norse gnogr, Gothic ganohs). http://www.etymonlin...php?term=enough

But then It doesn't fit in the sentence.

You also said this:

I tend to agree. There is nòch as 'enough' though. I am aware nochte is still/night in the dictionary. Maybe it's not fruit and nuts but an 'abundance of fruit' ...? There is no line over the o in the OLB word transliteration though...

næch

, afries., Adv.: nhd. genug; ne. enough (Adv.); Vw.: s. e-; E.: germ. *næga-,

*nægaz, Adj.: nhd. genug; s. idg. *ene¨-, *ne¨-, *en¨-, *¤¨-, *h

1ne¨-, V., reichen

----------------------------------------

How are they getting nuts from nochta anyway?

From Latin "nux".

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But then It doesn't fit in the sentence.

From Latin "nux".

It fits and I showed Dutch genoeg is enough so it must fit cause that's the word. The trouble is you are now seeing this word as 'delights' but it's really 'enough'.

This meaning is not unusual imo and if you look at it as abundance and fruits of abundance, cornucopia it all fits very neat and nicely.

God didn't give us delights, God gave us abundance. An abundance of stuff is however, very delightful.

I don't buy the Frisian/Fryan word is nux/nochta/nuts at all. Not one little bit.

Edited by The Puzzler

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What I find interesting is that Fryans were in Italy, their language could have been spoken in the area, meaning, many Latin words might themselves derive from Fryan ones.

night/nocturnal/nox and nut/nux are very alike, what is also interesting there is that the moon makes you mad, the night can make you nuts, literally - these words imo may derive from a same root meaning.

Like loon or loony (crazy/mad), a word based in luna, moon.

Edited by The Puzzler

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It fits and I showed Dutch genoeg is enough so it must fit cause that's the word. The trouble is you are now seeing this word as 'delights' but it's really 'enough'.

This meaning is not unusual imo and if you look at it as abundance and fruits of abundance, cornucopia it all fits very neat and nicely.

God didn't give us delights, God gave us abundance. An abundance of stuff is however, very delightful.

I don't buy the Frisian/Fryan word is nux/nochta/nuts at all. Not one little bit.

Its literal meaning is 'nuts', its metaphorical meaning is 'delights'.

Here it can not mean 'enough':

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts.

According to you it should be:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and enough.

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Correction: I said I believed the 'nochta' in that sentence should have been 'nota'.

So nothing to do with literal or metaphorical, it's probably a typo in the OLB.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The funny thing is that the old Dutch word "geneugte" is derived from 'enough', or in Dutch: 'genoeg'.

Look at some old spellings here: genugde, genuchde, genuogte, genochte, genuchte, gnoechten and remember that the Frisians always dropped the GE- prefix (or that other germanic peoples added it).

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/geneugte

It did indeed mean 'abundance', but later on shifted to the meaning of 'delight' and 'pleasure'.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/geneugte

But it still doesn't fit in that sentence about the trees and shrubs.

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The funny thing is that the old Dutch word "geneugte" is derived from 'enough', or in Dutch: 'genoeg'.

Look at some old spellings here: genugde, genuchde, genuogte, genochte, genuchte, gnoechten and remember that the Frisians always dropped the GE- prefix (or that other germanic peoples added it).

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte

It did indeed mean 'abundance', but later on shifted to the meaning of 'delight' and 'pleasure'.

http://www.etymologi...fwoord/geneugte

But it still doesn't fit in that sentence about the trees and shrubs.

''geneugte'' en 'genoegens' are derived from 'genot', 'genieten'. Maybe we should look at MS 006:

RING AS HJA RIP WЄRON

KRЄJON HJA FRŮCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRÆMA .

WRALDAS OD TRAD TORA BINNA - ÆND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÆND TWILIF TOGAÐERA

Looks like puberty of young girls and their phantasies. Here fruchda and nochta should be translated as joy (vreugde) and fun (genoegens). No fruits and nuts to dream about, I guess.

The third line about Wralda's od has been discussed here.

Edited by Knul

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Its literal meaning is 'nuts', its metaphorical meaning is 'delights'.

Here it can not mean 'enough':

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts.

According to you it should be:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and enough.

Here's etymology of nocht - from naked to night to West Frisian enough and also fun, pleasure.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nocht

No nuts but enough fun, pleasure and nakedness at night.

I'm not sure how I'd phrase it exactly yet.

Edited by The Puzzler

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''geneugte'' en 'genoegens' are derived from 'genot', 'genieten'. Maybe we should look at MS 006:

RING AS HJA RIP WЄRON

KRЄJON HJA FRŮCHDA ÆND NOCHTA ANDA DRÆMA .

WRALDAS OD TRAD TORA BINNA - ÆND NW BARDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÆND TWILIF TOGAÐERA

Looks like puberty of young girls and their phantasies. Here fruchda and nochta should be translated as joy (vreugde) and fun (genoegens). No fruits and nuts to dream about, I guess.

The third line about Wralda's od has been discussed here.

Sorry Knul, I changed my mind on my answer to you so edited it out.

What word is joy in Frisian Knul?

I found this word somewhat like FRŮCHDA

frið-del

5, frið-del-f, frð-del-f, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Geliebter, Gatte; ne. beloved

(M.), husband; Hw.: vgl. an. friOEill, anfrk. friuthil, as. friuthil*, ahd. friudil*, mhd.

friedel; Q.: H; E.: germ. *fridila-, *fridilaz, st. M. (a), Geliebter; s. idg. *prõi-,

*prýi-, *prÂ-, V., Adj., gern haben, schonen, lieben, friedlich, froh, Pokorny 844; L.:

Hh 32a, Rh 767b

Edited by The Puzzler

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Here's etymology of nocht - from naked to night to West Frisian enough and also fun, pleasure.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nocht

No nuts but enough fun, pleasure and nakedness at night.

I'm not sure how I'd phrase it exactly yet.

Sure, and it grows on trees.

So now we're throwing Celtic into the equation?

From Old Irish nocht ("naked, bare, uncovered"), from Proto-Celtic *nokʷto- (“naked”) (compare Welsh noeth).

I think we can all agree that the "nochta" in the sentence about the trees and shrubs is a typo.

Or a hint, of course....

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta.

I think the symbolical meaning lies in the first part.

"Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton" -> aan de bomen groeien as an expression of abundance or being evident.

Example: 'Jij denkt zeker dat het geld aan de bomen groeit?" Money growing from the trees doesn't fit either but is used as an expression.

Vreugde en geneugden groeiden er aan de bomen. (Joy and pleasure was evident, not hard to find).

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Its probably just one of those words that has more than one meaning ......say yellow , we could say its the colour , its un-ripe/ or new to something , un-trained, in-experienced , its scared or frightened or cowardly etc..

What is Waxton , is it like when something is waxed , it becomes free and easy , then maybe you are supposed to read into the whole sentence a meaning something like , in the early times after creation in the garden , everything was easy , and we always had enough .

even genughde could look like get naked , or rather get nude , as another meaning of the word .

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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OK, I agree with you all: it's a metaphor.

thessa byldon jâvon hja antha vnaerg thaenkanda ljuda, to longa lersta sêidon hja thaet Jes-us en drochten wêre, thaet-i thaet selva an hjam bilêden hêde, aend thaet alle thêr an him aend an sina lêra lâwa wilde, nêimels in sin kêningkrik kvme skolde, hwêr frü is aend nochta send.

deze beelden gaven zij aan de onerg ("argeloos") denkende lieden, te lange leste zeiden zij dat Jes-us een Heer ware, dat-ie dat zelve aan hen belijd had, ende dat alle die aan hem ende zijn leer ge-loven wilden, namaals in zijn koninkrijk komen zulden, waar vreugde is en ge-neugten zijn.

They gave these statues to simple/guileless people, and at last they said that Jes-us was a god (Lord), that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and pleasure/delight

=

Yes, 'waxton' is waxed, but you can forget about the 'genughde' being 'get naked', lol.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Not being stubborn here, but now again I have my doubts about the sentence being a metaphor, but that's because i didn't quote the whole paragraph:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

"which are now lost".... it really does look like the writer is talking about actual stuff growing on trees, and certainly when you read what comes right after it (barley, oats, rye, wheat ).

+++++++

EDIT:

And because it is about actual stuff growing on the trees and in the fields, then, in case of "nochta", the Latin 'nux' shows up again:

nougat (n.)

"sweetmeat of almonds and other nuts," 1827, from French nougat (18c.), from Provençal nougat "cake made with almonds," from Old Provençal nogat "nutcake," from noga, nuga "nut," from Vulgar Latin *nucatum (nominative *nuca), from Latin nux (genitive nucis) "nut," from PIE *kneu- "nut" (see nucleus).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=nougat&searchmode=none

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Sorry Knul, I changed my mind on my answer to you so edited it out.

What word is joy in Frisian Knul?

Hh 32a, Rh 767b

freugde, blidskip

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freugde, blidskip

According to the online Old Frisian dictionary :

frou-d-e 1, afries., F.: nhd. Freude; ne. delight (N.); Hw.: vgl. ahd. frouwida*,

mnd. vröude, mnl. vroude, mhd. vröude; Q.: AA 129; I.: Lw. mnd. vroude; E.: s.

mnd. vroude; s. germ. *frawa-, *frawaz, Adj., rasch, hurtig, froh, fröhlich; vgl. idg.

*preu-, V., springen, hüpfen, Pokorny 845

Dutch: vreugde

fræ-lik-hê-d 1, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Fröhlichkeit, Freude; ne. joy (N.), happiness;

Hw.: vgl. mnd. vrölichêit, mnl. frolicheit, mhd. vrÏlicheit; Q.: AA 178; I.: Lw. mnl.

frolicheit; E.: s. frÐ, -lik

Dutch: vrolijkheid

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-F.pdf

niõt-a 7, afries., st. V. (2): nhd. genießen; ne. enjoy; Vw.: s. bi-, und-; Hw.: s. nât

(2); Hw.: vgl. got. niutan, an. njæta, ae. néotan, anfrk. nietan, as. niotan, ahd.

niozan; Q.: S, W, B, E; E.: germ. *neutan, st. V., einfangen, genießen, nutzen; idg.

*neud-?, V., greifen, nutzen, ergreifen, Pokorny 768?; W.: s. genietjen, V.,

genießen; L.

Dutch: ge-nieten

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-N.pdf

bli-th-skip 4, bli-d-skip, afries., st. F. (i): nhd. Freude, Fröhlichkeit; ne. joy (V.);

Hw.: vgl. an. blithskapr, mnl. bliskap, plattd. bliscop; Q.: AA 203; E.: germ.

*bleiþaskapi-, *bleiþaskapiz, st. F. (i), Freude; s. idg. *bhlÁi- (1), *bhlýi-, *bhlÆ-, V.,

glänzen, Pokorny 155; vgl. idg. *bhel- (1), *bhelý-, Adj., V., glänzend, weiß,

glänzen, Pokorny 118; idg. *skÀp-, *kÀp-, V., schneiden, spalten, Pokorny 930; W.:

nfries. blydschap; W.: saterl. blidskop; W.: nnordfries. blidschip;

Dutch: blijdschap

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-B.pdf

.

Edited by Abramelin

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vreugden en geneugten, vruchten en genugten is a standard idiomatic expression. Just type the words on internet and you find many examples. Standard expression means: if you say vreugden or vruchten automatically follows geneugten or genugten without special meaning. There are other expresions like kaatjes en praatjes, moord en brand, lasten en lusten, te pas en te onpas. I would not know, if English has such variants too. In fact the combination of vreugden en geneugten you find in the protestant catechismus on the subject of marriage like: Waarom zijn door de Schepper alle vreugden en geneugten, van de eerst tot de laatste, in de echtelijke liefde bijeenvergaderd? s. http://www.swedenbor...echismus-h9-v18 . Such expressions belonged to the standard repertoire of the protestant ministers like Halbertsma.

Edited by Knul

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vreugden en geneugten, vruchten en genugten is a standard expression. Just type the words on internet and you find many examples. Standard expression means: if you say vreugden or vruchten automatically follows geneugten or genugten without special meaning. There are other expresions like kaatjes en praatjes, moord en brand. I would not know, if English has such variants too. In fact the combination of vreugden en geneugten you find in the protestant catechismus on the subject of marriage like: Waarom zijn door de Schepper alle vreugden en geneugten, van de eerst tot de laatste, in de echtelijke liefde bijeenvergaderd? s. http://www.swedenbor...echismus-h9-v18 .

But how does that fit into this paragraph which is obviously about a list of things growing on trees and in the fields:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

+++

EDIT:

In the next quote it is obvious that something Biblical was meant:

thessa byldon jâvon hja antha vnaerg thaenkanda ljuda, to longa lersta sêidon hja thaet Jes-us en drochten wêre, thaet-i thaet selva an hjam bilêden hêde, aend thaet alle thêr an him aend an sina lêra lâwa wilde, nêimels in sin kêningkrik kvme skolde, hwêr frü is aend nochta send.

deze beelden gaven zij aan de onerg ("argeloos") denkende lieden, te lange leste zeiden zij dat Jes-us een Heer ware, dat-ie dat zelve aan hen belijd had, ende dat alle die aan hem ende zijn leer ge-loven wilden, namaals in zijn koninkrijk komen zulden, waar vreugde is en ge-neugten zijn.

They gave these statues to simple/guileless people, and at last they said that Jes-us was a god (Lord), that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and pleasure/delight.

Ottema changed Jes-us into Jessos. Why? I think I know why: because if you didn't know any better, you'd think you were reading about Jesus/Christianity, and he wanted that similarity to be less obvious.

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Edited by Abramelin

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