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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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And all this mixing of Jesus and Buddha, Christianity ,Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, made me think of this:

According to pastor Halbertsma Buddha was a reformer of Hinduism who campaigned against the Brahmins (priests), statues, rituals and sacrifices. Poorthuis: "He compared Hinduism with the Roman Catholic Church . Many Dutch still strongly feel that Buddhism is a kind of pure reform, also of the Christianity with its power and institutions. With this they unconsciously create a sort of Calvinistic Buddhism, which claims to fight against hierarchy, rituals and institutions. "

____

Believe it or not, Buddhism in our country began with a pastor. It was the Frisian Mennonite pastor Joast Hiddes Halbertsma who in 1843 wrote the booklet "The Buddhism and its founder. He had previously written about "witte wieven", earrings and Easter eggs, and it was thus ok to add something extra exotic. So it was Buddhism, which in terms of language, Sanskrit, even would have been akin to the Hindelopense dialect according to the minister.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=5580#entry3954584

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And all this mixing of Jesus and Buddha, Christianity ,Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, made me think of this:

According to pastor Halbertsma Buddha was a reformer of Hinduism who campaigned against the Brahmins (priests), statues, rituals and sacrifices. Poorthuis: "He compared Hinduism with the Roman Catholic Church . Many Dutch still strongly feel that Buddhism is a kind of pure reform, also of the Christianity with its power and institutions. With this they unconsciously create a sort of Calvinistic Buddhism, which claims to fight against hierarchy, rituals and institutions. "

____

Believe it or not, Buddhism in our country began with a pastor. It was the Frisian Mennonite pastor Joast Hiddes Halbertsma who in 1843 wrote the booklet "The Buddhism and its founder. He had previously written about "witte wieven", earrings and Easter eggs, and it was thus ok to add something extra exotic. So it was Buddhism, which in terms of language, Sanskrit, even would have been akin to the Hindelopense dialect according to the minister.

http://www.unexplain...80#entry3954584

Interesting. Some have doubted about the time Jesus shows up in the OLB. Wouldn't you think that it is a matter of reincarnation Buddha, Krishna and Jesus ?

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Interesting. Some have doubted about the time Jesus shows up in the OLB. Wouldn't you think that it is a matter of reincarnation Buddha, Krishna and Jesus ?

That is what many people already thought in the 19th century.

And for me there is no doubt about when he showed up according to the OLB: it's around 2200 BCE.

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But how does that fit into this paragraph which is obviously about a list of things growing on trees and in the fields:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

+++

EDIT:

In the next quote it is obvious that something Biblical was meant:

thessa byldon jâvon hja antha vnaerg thaenkanda ljuda, to longa lersta sêidon hja thaet Jes-us en drochten wêre, thaet-i thaet selva an hjam bilêden hêde, aend thaet alle thêr an him aend an sina lêra lâwa wilde, nêimels in sin kêningkrik kvme skolde, hwêr frü is aend nochta send.

deze beelden gaven zij aan de onerg ("argeloos") denkende lieden, te lange leste zeiden zij dat Jes-us een Heer ware, dat-ie dat zelve aan hen belijd had, ende dat alle die aan hem ende zijn leer ge-loven wilden, namaals in zijn koninkrijk komen zulden, waar vreugde is en ge-neugten zijn.

They gave these statues to simple/guileless people, and at last they said that Jes-us was a god (Lord), that he had declared this himself to them, and that all those who followed his doctrine should enter his kingdom hereafter, where all was joy and pleasure/delight.

Ottema changed Jes-us into Jessos. Why? I think I know why: because if you didn't know any better, you'd think you were reading about Jesus/Christianity, and he wanted that similarity to be less obvious.

.

enter his kindom is obviously taken from the Our Lord's prayer 'thou kingdom will come'.

I think you should leave the idiomatic expression as it is: vruchten en genugten and not try to explain genugten, because it has no specific meaning of some sort of fruit. I understand, that it is hard to translate. In OLB you see what happens when one tries to translate the Dutch 'hoezee' in something like hoe een zee, which of course is meaningless. Idiomatic expressions belong to the literary side of the OLB.

Edited by Knul

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enter his kindom is obviously taken from the Our Lord's prayer 'thou kingdom will come'.

I think you should leave the idiomatic expression as it is: vruchten en genugten and not try to explain genugten, because it has no specific meaning of some sort of fruit. I understand, that it is hard to translate. In OLB you see what happens when one tries to translate the Dutch 'hoezee' in something like hoe een zee, which of course is meaningless. Idiomatic expressions belong to the literary side of the OLB.

Bolded part: yes, that is ok for the quote about Jes-us, but I still have some problems using the 'vruchten en geneugten' for the quote about the trees and fields because it is obvious that in that quote they are summing up what grew on trees and in the fields.

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Its literal meaning is 'nuts', its metaphorical meaning is 'delights'.

Here it can not mean 'enough':

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta,

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and nuts.

According to you it should be:

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. On the trees and shrubs grew fruits and enough.

On the trees grew pleasures and delights!

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On the trees grew pleasures and delights!

Then how about the full quote:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

Like I told Knul, it's a list of things that grew on trees and in the fields.

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Then how about the full quote:

That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven.

Êr thêre aerge tid kêm was vs lând thaet skênnéste in wr.alda. Svnne rês hager aend thêr was sjelden frost. Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send. Among tha gaers-sêdum hedon wi navt alena kêren, ljaver aend blyde, men âk swete thêr lik gold blikte aend thaet maen vndera svnnastrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne telath, hwand thaet êne jêr was alsa blyd as et ôthera.

Sandbach:

THIS STANDS INSCRIBED UPON ALL CITADELS.

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#au

Like I told Knul, it's a list of things that grew on trees and in the fields.

"Pleasures and delights" there also. 'Fruits' and 'nuts' are also pleasures and delights. It isn't a list, because 'fruits' is not a species - and why mention 'nuts'? The corns are listed, because they were important for life-support. "Pleasures and delights" is a saying.

Edited by Apol

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"Pleasures and delights" there also. 'Fruits' and 'nuts' are also pleasures and delights. It isn't a list, because 'fruits' is not a species - and why mention 'nuts'? The corns are listed, because they were important for life-support. "Pleasures and delights" is a saying.

I do know it is a saying, but then, right after those 'pleasures and delights', you get this:

thêr nw vrlêren send - which are now lost

That's another reason I thought the writer was talking about real fruit and nuts, not some metaphor.

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The whole problem with these 'nochta' being 'nuts' is that I can only find the Latin 'nux' as a possible source.

And what I suggested earlier, "nougat" is very probably simply a too recent word to show up in the OLB:

Willem Stuvé ontdekte de nougat in 1870 om precies te zijn. Hij noemde zijn ontdekking ‘noix-gâteau' (nootkoekje), later bij afkorting ‘noix-gat', dat tenslotte verbasterd werd tot nougat en noga.

William Stuve discovered the nougat in 1870 to be exact. He called his discovery 'noix-gâteau' (nut cake), later abbreviated 'noix-gat', which was eventually corrupted to nougat and nougat.

http://www.bakkerijmuseum.nl/kalwiblo/index.php?t=3&h=75&s=286

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What about nocta being nectar ? the food of the gods

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And all this mixing of Jesus and Buddha, Christianity ,Hinduism, Buddhism and so on, made me think of this:

According to pastor Halbertsma Buddha was a reformer of Hinduism who campaigned against the Brahmins (priests), statues, rituals and sacrifices. Poorthuis: "He compared Hinduism with the Roman Catholic Church . Many Dutch still strongly feel that Buddhism is a kind of pure reform, also of the Christianity with its power and institutions. With this they unconsciously create a sort of Calvinistic Buddhism, which claims to fight against hierarchy, rituals and institutions. "

____

Believe it or not, Buddhism in our country began with a pastor. It was the Frisian Mennonite pastor Joast Hiddes Halbertsma who in 1843 wrote the booklet "The Buddhism and its founder. He had previously written about "witte wieven", earrings and Easter eggs, and it was thus ok to add something extra exotic. So it was Buddhism, which in terms of language, Sanskrit, even would have been akin to the Hindelopense dialect according to the minister.

http://www.unexplain...80#entry3954584

This is where i think while the Frisians were in India , they may have taken their religion with them , and it was them that became the Brahmen ,or learned the Krishnan religion from the Brahmen, if you google the Brahmen you will find that the first Brahmen came from Gouda , (they were actually called the Gouda Brahmen (sounds pretty Dutch to me ) and if becoming a brahman meant you had to attend a university for a few years like Texila ( note similarity to Texel ) then this would be akin to the years it took to become a druid ,

According to Arrian Alexander made a point of going to Texila to meet them , and according to Richard Williams Morgan in St Paul , and the early British christian church (as opposed to the Popish Roman Christianity ) said " when St.Paul said ""i turn henceforth to the Gentiles ( Genus of the Isles ?? ) he was about to turn to a religion already possessing much more in common than either Judaism or the New Roman Christianity"" does Morgan mean here St.Paul was turning to the Celtic church version of Christianity , rather than the Roman version ?? and is that why they imprisoned and killed him .

Taliesin ( who Morgan calls the Prince Druid , and Bard ) says " Christ was the word from the beginning, and from the beginning was our teacher, we as a people never lost or forgot his teachings , Christianity became a new thing in Asia , but there was never a time when the Druids of Britain held not his doctrines ".

If the Druids had been created on Christs Doctrines then because they were formed well before Jesus Christ , the druids cant mean Jesus , so they are likely to have got their doctrines from Krishen ,/Krishna , so could they have got these while they were in India

Even the Roman Church has agreed officially that Britain recieved Christianity before Rome ,which is why our churches always said from the start our churches would not be dominated by the Pope , and because of our Aryan ( note i wonder if this was an Indian Aryan version of Christianity which became a heresy, but was changed to the Arrian Heresy , to hide the reason )version of Christianity was the reason the Romans had to destroy the Druids , and why the Romans needed to lose so many men conquering the British Version.

Here then you would get a very good reason why the OLB can never be officially acknowledged as not a fake !

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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I do know it is a saying, but then, right after those 'pleasures and delights', you get this:

thêr nw vrlêren send - which are now lost

That's another reason I thought the writer was talking about real fruit and nuts, not some metaphor.

I find no problems with that. They simply call what were growing on the trees and shrubs (which certainly for the most were fruits) 'pleasures and delights'.

Now a lot of these 'pleasures and delights' had become lost.

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I find no problems with that. They simply call what were growing on the trees and shrubs (which certainly for the most were fruits) 'pleasures and delights'.

Now a lot of these 'pleasures and delights' had become lost.

This was simply before a name had formed for 'fruits'. Douglas Harper writes:

Fruit (n.) late 12c., from Old French fruit "fruit, fruit eaten as dessert; harvest; virtuous action" (12c.), from Latin fructus "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction; proceeds, produce, fruit, crops," from frug-, stem of frui "to use, enjoy," from PIE *bhrug- "agricultural produce," also "to enjoy" (see brook (v.)).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Ljudgêrt relates from his homeland Sindh that "by us are berry trees like your linden trees" (168/4-5), which shows that they could use the designation 'berries' for fruit.

There exists, however, a word for 'nuts' in the book - on 167/29-30 we read: "nuts as large as children’s heads". It is obviously derived from nochta, which means 'delights'. The experts have a little more clumsy explanation for the etymology of the word 'nut', though.

Edited by Apol

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What about nocta being nectar ? the food of the gods

Yes, it comes quite close to "nochta", but it is even a more recent borrowing from Latin/Greek, and as late as the 16th century.

And I think nectar is always associated with flowers, not trees or shrubs, though I do know trees and shrubs can carry flowers.

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This was simply before a name had formed for 'fruits'. Douglas Harper writes:

Fruit (n.) late 12c., from Old French fruit "fruit, fruit eaten as dessert; harvest; virtuous action" (12c.), from Latin fructus "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction; proceeds, produce, fruit, crops," from frug-, stem of frui "to use, enjoy," from PIE *bhrug- "agricultural produce," also "to enjoy" (see brook (v.)).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Ljudgêrt relates from his homeland Sindh that "by us are berry trees like your linden trees" (168/4-5), which shows that they could use the designation 'berries' for fruit.

There exists, however, a word for 'nuts' in the book - on 167/29-30 we read: "nuts as large as children’s heads". It is obviously derived from nochta, which means 'delights'. The experts have a little more clumsy explanation for the etymology of the word 'nut', though.

Maybe the experts are clumsy explaining the etymology of the word 'nut', but you won't find on any (Dutch or English) online etymology site a word like "nochta" as explanation, and you can't expect they are all blind, lol.

You use the word "crops" as one of the words explaining "fruit". Now look at this quote from the OLB:

Hyr is nv min rêd.

(...)

An tha westsyde fon Pangab, wânâ wi wech kvme aend hwer ik bern ben, thêr blojath aend waxath tha selva frûchta aend nochta as an tha âstsyde.

Dutch:

Hier is nu mijn raad.

(...)

Aan de westzijde van Panjab, waar wij weg komen en waar ik ge-boren ben, daar bloeiden en wasten de zelfde vruchten en noten (?) als aan de oostzijde.

Sandbach:

HERE IS MY COUNSEL.

(...)

On the west of the Punjab where we come from, and where I was born, the same fruits and crops grow as on the east side.

Apparaently they are all guessing.

And this is what you mentioned already:

(From the same chapter:)

By vs werthat nochta fonden lik bern-hâveda sâ grât, thêr sit tsys aend melok in, werthat se ald sâ mâkt man ther ôlja fon, fon tha bastum mâkt maen tâw aend fon tha kernum mâkt maen chelka aend ôr gerâd.

Dutch:

Bij ons worden noten gevonden ge-lijk kinder-hoofden zo groot, daar zit kaas ende melk in, worden zij oud zo maakt men er olie van, van de bast maakt men touw ende van de kernen maakt men kelken ende ander geraad.

Sandbach:

In our country there are nuts as large as a child’s head. They contain cheese and milk. When they are old oil is made from them. Of the husks ropes are made, and of the shells cups and other household utensils are made.

From that quote it's obvious "nochta" can only mean 'nut' (in this case it's a coconut).

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This is where i think while the Frisians were in India , they may have taken their religion with them , and it was them that became the Brahmen ,or learned the Krishnan religion from the Brahmen, if you google the Brahmen you will find that the first Brahmen came from Gouda , (they were actually called the Gouda Brahmen (sounds pretty Dutch to me ) and if becoming a brahman meant you had to attend a university for a few years like Texila ( note similarity to Texel ) then this would be akin to the years it took to become a druid ,

According to Arrian Alexander made a point of going to Texila to meet them , and according to Richard Williams Morgan in St Paul , and the early British christian church (as opposed to the Popish Roman Christianity ) said " when St.Paul said ""i turn henceforth to the Gentiles ( Genus of the Isles ?? ) he was about to turn to a religion already possessing much more in common than either Judaism or the New Roman Christianity"" does Morgan mean here St.Paul was turning to the Celtic church version of Christianity , rather than the Roman version ?? and is that why they imprisoned and killed him .

Taliesin ( who Morgan calls the Prince Druid , and Bard ) says " Christ was the word from the beginning, and from the beginning was our teacher, we as a people never lost or forgot his teachings , Christianity became a new thing in Asia , but there was never a time when the Druids of Britain held not his doctrines ".

If the Druids had been created on Christs Doctrines then because they were formed well before Jesus Christ , the druids cant mean Jesus , so they are likely to have got their doctrines from Krishen ,/Krishna , so could they have got these while they were in India

Even the Roman Church has agreed officially that Britain recieved Christianity before Rome ,which is why our churches always said from the start our churches would not be dominated by the Pope , and because of our Aryan ( note i wonder if this was an Indian Aryan version of Christianity which became a heresy, but was changed to the Arrian Heresy , to hide the reason )version of Christianity was the reason the Romans had to destroy the Druids , and why the Romans needed to lose so many men conquering the British Version.

Here then you would get a very good reason why the OLB can never be officially acknowledged as not a fake !

"Gouda" may sound Dutch to you, but the oldest name for Gouda was "Golde":

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouda

-

And I know about "Texila"; it's also not just the name, but also that the function of the city was similar to Texland/Texel (administration, jurisdiction).

-

When Friso returned with his people to his ancestral homeland after living for many ages in the far east, he didn't introduce Druidism or something.

-

For the rest of your post, I must admit, you lost me.

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And I know about "Taxila"; it's also not just the name, but also that the function of the city was similar to Texland/Texel (administration, jurisdiction).

An old post of mine:

http://www.unexplain...10#entry4331893

.

Edited by Abramelin

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An tha westsyde fon Pangab, wânâ wi wech kvme aend hwer ik bern ben, thêr blojath aend waxath tha selva frûchta aend nochta as an tha âstsyde.

Aan de westzijde van Panjab, waar wij weg komen en waar ik ge-boren ben, daar bloeiden en wasten de zelfde vruchten en noten (?) als aan de oostzijde.

On the west of the Punjab where we come from, and where I was born, the same fruits and crops grow as on the east side.

Here is my translation of that sentence:

On the west side of Punjab, from where we come and where I was born, there the same pleasures and delights flourish and grow as on the east side.

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Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send.

On the trees and trees grew fruits and nuts, which are now lost.

I translated it like I did on purpose for both words, "bâma" and "trêjon", mean 'trees'. Many times 'trêjon' is being translated as (DU) 'heesters' or 'shrubs', but that's mainly - I think - because it should mean something else than 'tree'.

But the plural "trêjon" could also originally have meant oak:

tree (n.)

Old English treo, treow "tree" (also "wood"), from Proto-Germanic *trewan (cf. Old Frisian tre, Old Saxon trio, Old Norse tre, Gothic triu), from PIE *deru- "oak" (cf. Sanskrit dru "tree, wood," daru "wood, log;" Greek drys "oak," doru "spear;" Old Church Slavonic drievo "tree, wood;" Serbian drvo "tree," drva "wood;" Russian drevo "tree, wood;" Czech drva; Polish drwa "wood;" Lithuanian derva "pine wood;" Old Irish daur, Welsh derwen "oak," Albanian drusk "oak").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tree&allowed_in_frame=0

I thought that maybe "bâma" (DU: bomen) stands for fruit carrying trees, and "trêjon" for nut carrying trees, like the oak.

But in Old Frisian the word for oak is "ek"... sigh.

Does any of you have a better idea about why the OLB uses two words for "trees" in that sentence?

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Here is my translation of that sentence:

On the west side of Punjab, from where we come and where I was born, there the same pleasures and delights flourish and grow as on the east side.

Sorry, but that looks silly.

They are talking matter of fact: this is here, overthere is that, we also have this, and so on.

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By vs werthat nochta fonden lik bern-hâveda sâ grât, thêr sit tsys aend melok in, werthat se ald sâ mâkt man ther ôlja fon, fon tha bastum mâkt maen tâw aend fon tha kernum mâkt maen chelka aend ôr gerâd.

Dutch:

Bij ons worden noten gevonden ge-lijk kinder-hoofden zo groot, daar zit kaas ende melk in, worden zij oud zo maakt men er olie van, van de bast maakt men touw ende van de kernen maakt men kelken ende ander geraad.

Sandbach:

In our country there are nuts as large as a child’s head. They contain cheese and milk. When they are old oil is made from them. Of the husks ropes are made, and of the shells cups and other household utensils are made.

From that quote it's obvious "nochta" can only mean 'nut' (in this case it's a coconut).

Yes, I agree in that.

Frügda and nochta means 'pleasures and delights', and the two sorts of seeds growing on trees are named from this saying.

Edited by Apol

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Yes, I agree in that.

Frügda and nochta means 'pleasures and delights', and the two sorts of seeds growing on trees are named from this saying.

OK, so we agree that "nochta" means 'nuts', and that it may have been derived from a word meaning 'delight ('ge-nochten', 'ge-neugten', and so on).

What we don't agree on is how it is used in some sentences, like in Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send.

For me it is clear the writer talks about fruits and nuts that no longer grow in the area because of some climate change.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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OK, so we agree that "nochta" means 'nuts', and that it may have been derived from a word meaning 'delight ('ge-nochten', 'ge-neugten', and so on).

What we don't agree on is how it is used in some sentences, like in Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send.

For me it is clear the writer talks about fruits and nuts that no longer grow in the area because of some climate change.

.

My translation:

On the trees and shrubs grew pleasures and delights which are now lost.

They hadn't any collective word for what grew on threes and shrubs, that's my opinion.

And we don't need to agree. Disagreement is a good thing, because then we can move forward.

Edited by Apol

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Have you thought about the bâma aend trêjon?

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