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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Maybe the experts are clumsy explaining the etymology of the word 'nut', but you won't find on any (Dutch or English) online etymology site a word like "nochta" as explanation, and you can't expect they are all blind, lol.

You use the word "crops" as one of the words explaining "fruit". Now look at this quote from the OLB:

Hyr is nv min rêd.

(...)

An tha westsyde fon Pangab, wânâ wi wech kvme aend hwer ik bern ben, thêr blojath aend waxath tha selva frûchta aend nochta as an tha âstsyde.

Dutch:

Hier is nu mijn raad.

(...)

Aan de westzijde van Panjab, waar wij weg komen en waar ik ge-boren ben, daar bloeiden en wasten de zelfde vruchten en noten (?) als aan de oostzijde.

Sandbach:

HERE IS MY COUNSEL.

(...)

On the west of the Punjab where we come from, and where I was born, the same fruits and crops grow as on the east side.

Apparaently they are all guessing.

And this is what you mentioned already:

(From the same chapter:)

By vs werthat nochta fonden lik bern-hâveda sâ grât, thêr sit tsys aend melok in, werthat se ald sâ mâkt man ther ôlja fon, fon tha bastum mâkt maen tâw aend fon tha kernum mâkt maen chelka aend ôr gerâd.

Dutch:

Bij ons worden noten gevonden ge-lijk kinder-hoofden zo groot, daar zit kaas ende melk in, worden zij oud zo maakt men er olie van, van de bast maakt men touw ende van de kernen maakt men kelken ende ander geraad.

Sandbach:

In our country there are nuts as large as a child’s head. They contain cheese and milk. When they are old oil is made from them. Of the husks ropes are made, and of the shells cups and other household utensils are made.

From that quote it's obvious "nochta" can only mean 'nut' (in this case it's a coconut).

It does appear that way.

You also made the observation that nochta goes to nut nowhere in any etymology.

There is another word I'm thinking of that does sound like nochta and reminds me of nuts - that is knock.

Why is a nut so named? How did the word come about?

The word knuckle comes from the same as knock - noka in Norse.

It means, to hit - what? The ground?

For all we know, the word might not be nut (from Latin nux), but noka's - meaning the things that knock (on the ground when they fall) = description of a nut

Ever seen Castaway with Tom Hanks?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yellow-Coconuts1-360x270.jpg

Knockers or nuts?

:blush:

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For the rest of your post, I must admit, you lost me.

Thats a shame ! i have had 3 messages to say some people liked it , so at least some people got my drift .

The "nuts" of it was ..... The i think the goths , Frisians , Brits , Bretons , Irish were all one people who either took or brought their religion from India ,As per Taliesin they had their christian doctrines when the Druids were formed , centuries before the Roman version of Christianity adopted and twisted Jesus teachings,

St.Paul and the Apostles , Jesus' Disciples had seen according to Morgan that the Keltic/Druid religion was closest to Jesus' teachings , and had started moving away from the Romans , and started preaching in the centre of the Druid faith , which was at the time in Britain........The Romans did not want this , they wanted Jesus' allied with a roman/papal version , So the Apostles Peter and Paul were executed , the Druids were destroyed , King Caradoc (caratacus ) was taken with his family and kept in Rome in for 7 years .....While they sent Augustine among others to evangelize the Roman version , which being the power they were at the time, they mostly achieved .

So what we got is a Romanised version of Christianity.....Which left to its own devices , could probably have become much more of a pagan, Druidic ,Celtic Christian and maybe Magian religion which as morgan says was more common with what Jesus was preaching.

In Hindi Sasana is the name of a teaching for a way of life .for instance you would follow the Buddha Sasana , which was the teachings of Buddha (but there was not an overall God , just teachings of a way to lead your life) This teaching can change with the times and customs , and is supposed to be forever being assesed for suitability for the best life of Dhama.........Sasana reminds me of Sassan (Saxon) To Hindu's when any two people want to get married , the most important thing the parents want to know is the others Sasana , and their Gotra .

In Hindu Gotra , is the name of your Clan, your ancestry in an unbroken line from a common ancestor .all the Brahmins , claim to be descended from one of 7 of the first teachers , Gautama (Gauda-ma ) Bharadvaja (Bharat as in Mahabarata - Higgins thinks maybe were Britons ) , Visva-Mitra,( Mithra ? ) Jamadagni ( Agni the fire God ) Vasistha , Kasyapa , Atri , these are the 7 Saptarishi , and they are called GotraKarins (chosen Ancestors ? ).......Gotra reminds me of the Goths , Clans

Another Hindu word for Origins, family , ancestors, Clan is Gent ,( you also have Ghent) the Romans used the word originally as nomem Gentilicium ( original ancestor name ) shortened it to Gentes , and shortened it again to Gens , The oldest Roman Patrician families allegedly trace their Gens back to the Trojan Wars .

Gauda in India was founded by a Bengali King , Sasanka it reached from Bengal to Kashmir in the Himmel-laias ( Heaven Mtns ) Gau = Cow , da = land ,( the Frisians burnt all the scrubland killing all the small rodents , and snakes ......to produce grazing lands for Gau's ?.)....Sasanka's Kingdom produced the Pala Empire , and Pala means Protector in Hindi, the Palas remind me of the Pallas Athena , the Frisians who went to found Athens as friends , not conquerors.

According to Wiki.."History of Bengal " the name came from the Bangla ( B- Angles ?) who settled the area around 1000 BC , they were not vedic Aryans , but are thought to have spoken an Austro-asiatic dialect , which among others the Pulinda people who live there still speak today

The original Gaudian Brahmins were calle Adi( Adi means first , original , from creation ) Brahmins , they were called Adi-Gauda Brahmins , Adi-Gau reminds me of Attica , where Jon and Minerva went .

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Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send.

On the trees and trees grew fruits and nuts, which are now lost.

I translated it like I did on purpose for both words, "bâma" and "trêjon", mean 'trees'. Many times 'trêjon' is being translated as (DU) 'heesters' or 'shrubs', but that's mainly - I think - because it should mean something else than 'tree'.

But the plural "trêjon" could also originally have meant oak:

tree (n.)

Old English treo, treow "tree" (also "wood"), from Proto-Germanic *trewan (cf. Old Frisian tre, Old Saxon trio, Old Norse tre, Gothic triu), from PIE *deru- "oak" (cf. Sanskrit dru "tree, wood," daru "wood, log;" Greek drys "oak," doru "spear;" Old Church Slavonic drievo "tree, wood;" Serbian drvo "tree," drva "wood;" Russian drevo "tree, wood;" Czech drva; Polish drwa "wood;" Lithuanian derva "pine wood;" Old Irish daur, Welsh derwen "oak," Albanian drusk "oak").

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

I thought that maybe "bâma" (DU: bomen) stands for fruit carrying trees, and "trêjon" for nut carrying trees, like the oak.

But in Old Frisian the word for oak is "ek"... sigh.

Does any of you have a better idea about why the OLB uses two words for "trees" in that sentence?

Could it be it does not mean a specific tree , but one means coppice , or grove , and the other means woods , or forest or orchard or plantation

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OK, so we agree that "nochta" means 'nuts', and that it may have been derived from a word meaning 'delight ('ge-nochten', 'ge-neugten', and so on).

What we don't agree on is how it is used in some sentences, like in Anda bâma aend trêjon waxton frügda ând nochta, thêr nw vrlêren send.

For me it is clear the writer talks about fruits and nuts that no longer grow in the area because of some climate change.

.

In english we have a saying " to wax lyrical " or be waxing lyrical about something , and it means to be profuse , come out in speech with an abundance of words about things that you like ,or admire ,so the lyrical would be the speech , and wax, waxing , waxton would be the abundance part

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Have you thought about the bâma aend trêjon?

Yes, I have.

But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:

a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:

She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.

When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.

A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.

I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.

In other words it must be a 'shrub'.

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Could it be it does not mean a specific tree , but one means coppice , or grove , and the other means woods , or forest or orchard or plantation

bâma might be beam, which could mean the branches, or the trunk.

On the branches on trees grew...

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In english we have a saying " to wax lyrical " or be waxing lyrical about something , and it means to be profuse , come out in speech with an abundance of words about things that you like ,or admire ,so the lyrical would be the speech , and wax, waxing , waxton would be the abundance part

A waxing moon is a moon that is growing. (The white gets bigger)

Yes, I have.

But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:

a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:

She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.

When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.

A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.

I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.

In other words it must be a 'shrub'.

A beam, a branch or trunk.

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The Bema is what the judgement seat of Christ is called , but that does not really seem to fit ? unless it has something to do with why the bad times came , and the years of abundance went ?

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The Bema is what the judgement seat of Christ is called , but that does not really seem to fit ? unless it has something to do with why the bad times came , and the years of abundance went ?

bam in Frisian will take you to seat, but it's still beam/tree.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/beam

Etymology 2

West Frisian

Etymology

From Old Frisian bām, from Proto-Germanic *baumaz

http://en.wiktionary...bam#Old_Frisian

Old Frisian

Etymology

From Proto-Germanic *baumaz.

Noun

bām m

  1. tree
  2. bench
  3. seat

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes, I have.

But I haven't found anything to refer to for proving my translation.

I just compared to the mythology, where it is written about Lyda:

a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet.

A little further down the story continues with Finda:

She could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, she killed there rather ten.

A bâm must be the same as the German Baum, which means a tree.

When bâm is a tree, what is then a ðrê? Even in Norway we say tre, which means the very same as in English - a tree.

A tree should have been the same as the German Baum, but here it is obviously somewhat else, but still a tree.

I read between the lines that Finda could not bend EVEN a ðrê, so, I reasoned that a ðrê must be of a lesser size than a bâm.

In other words it must be a 'shrub'.

bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.

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bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.

Gerhard Köbler: Altfriesisches Wörterbuch:

[p. 21] Bâm 26, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Baum, Stammbaum, Galgen, Stange; ne. tree (N.), familiy tree, gallows (N.), beam (N.); ÜG.: lat. arbor L 2, (fūstis) L 8; Vw.: s. pal-m-, *stal-l-es-, up-stal-l-es-; Hw.: vgl. an. baðmr, ae. béam (1), as. bôm, ahd. boum; Q.: S, H, B, E, F, W, Jur, L 2, L 8; E.: germ. *bagma-, *bagmaz, *bauma-, *baumaz, *bazma-, *bazmaz, st. M. (a), Baum; W.: nfries. baem, beamme, bjemme; W.: saterl. bame; L.: Hh 5a, Rh 618a.

[p. 266]Trē 11, afries., st. N. (wa): nhd. Baum; ne. tree; Hw.: vgl. got. triu*, an. tre, ae. tréo, as. trio*; Q.: H, E; E.: germ. *trewa-, *trewam, st. N. (a), Baum, Holz; idg. *deru-, *dreu-, *drū-, Sb., Baum, Pokorny 214; W.: nnordfries. tre, trä; L.: Hh 115b, Rh 1093b.

Yes, from Köbler's dictionary the two words are synonyms - bâm means 'tree', and ðrê means 'tree'.

but it will not give any solution to the sentence:

anda bâma ænd trêjon waxton frügda and nochta ðêr nw vr lêren send

Edited by Apol

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From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.

[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

Edited by Apol

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From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.

[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

Maybe but the word derives with oak, and oaks are not known as small. Of course, it doesn't mean Fryans saw a tree as an oak but this description would have been contributing to the meaning of tree, imo - it was also 'wood', meaning the tre was useful to use as wood, which oak is and generally large trees.

The Alder tree doesn't look all that small.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alder

220px-Alder_trees_by_the_Beaulieu_River_at_Longwater_Lawn.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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bâm and ðrê can easily be synonyms without difference in meaning. In fact ðrê is English tree. OLB contains many English words used to indicate the proto Frisian-English substrate.

Btw, it's not bâm and ðrê, but bâm and trê .

ðrê means 'three' everywhere in the OLB.

It only shows up meaning 'tree' in the description of Finda's characteristics, but that ðrê is obviously a typo.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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From this sentence it seems like ðrê/trê must have been the smallest of bâm and ðrê/trê:

[96/32] ðêr hipð hju nêi.t kríl.wod. gripð elsne trêon tragd en breg tomakjande.

[96/32] There she leapt towards the bog wood, grabbed alder bushes, tried to make a bridge.

It seems to me that a ðrê is a small tree.

You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.

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This was simply before a name had formed for 'fruits'. Douglas Harper writes:

Fruit (n.) late 12c., from Old French fruit "fruit, fruit eaten as dessert; harvest; virtuous action" (12c.), from Latin fructus "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction; proceeds, produce, fruit, crops," from frug-, stem of frui "to use, enjoy," from PIE *bhrug- "agricultural produce," also "to enjoy" (see brook (v.)).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Ljudgêrt relates from his homeland Sindh that "by us are berry trees like your linden trees" (168/4-5), which shows that they could use the designation 'berries' for fruit.

There exists, however, a word for 'nuts' in the book - on 167/29-30 we read: "nuts as large as children’s heads". It is obviously derived from nochta, which means 'delights'. The experts have a little more clumsy explanation for the etymology of the word 'nut', though.

I have to correct myself regarding what I have written:

The OLB has a word for 'fruits': 9/15, 12/16, 104/4, 166/24, 167/23 and 207/6 talk about früchda/fruchta in contexts where it obviously means 'fruits' and not 'pleasures'. The word is also used figuratively, like 'fruits of bad work' or the like.

This means that they had words both for fruits and for nuts contemporary with the saying früchda änd nochta.

Still I hold that früchda änd nochta must be translated into 'pleasures and delights' though, because the saying must have a unity, and this is the only way it can have that. But it is obviously an equivocation - at the same time it means 'fruits and nuts'.

Like I've said before, Douglas Harper writes that the English word fruit stems from the Latin fructus, which means "an enjoyment, delight, satisfaction”...

Edited by Apol

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You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.

Wiarda, Richthofen, Hettema and Köbler all state that both bam and thre (tre, dre) mean 'tree' in Old Frisian. Wiarda even says that thre explicitly is called bam in the Hunsinger Landrecht”. In the OLB, however, there is in fact a difference between bâm and ðrê/trê. It says:

On ða bâma and ða trêjon grew pleasures and delights which are now lost (47/9-11).

I have reasoned: what does the difference between ðrê and bâm imply - is it about species, deciduous versus coniferous trees, size?

It is obvious not about species, because it says:

"...there are many foreign ðrê and flowers brought along by the steersmen" (107/31-33),

"...he [Alexander] had let his soldiers cut bâma and make planks (of them) [in Pangab]" (122/5-6), and in the laws:

…ða bâma, these ones no one can fell without common deliberation, and without the knowledge of the forester" (20/9-11).

In other words, it is obviously about trees in general.

It cannot be about deciduous versus coniferous trees either, because, as just mentioned, it grew 'pleasures and delights' on them - which it doesn't do on coniferous trees to a normal extent.

Then it is quite unavoidable that the difference should be about size. When Adela tried to come to the aid of three children who had rescued themselves upon a gravestone during a peat fire, she grabbed some elsne ('alder-') trêon and tried to make a bridge of them (95/32). To be sure, Adela was two meters tall, and surey as strong as an ox, but she would have had to go a long way in moving big trees; it's also doubtful how practical it would have been in the situation.

And the mythology says about Lyda that "...a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet" (7/10-12), while it is said about Finda that "...she could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, there she killed rather ten" (7/32-8/2).

In other words, it looks like a ðrê/trê is a small tree, while bâm is a big tree. That a bâm is a big tree, is ascertained in the relation about Alexander the Great above, who let his soldiers cut bâma for making planks of them. One doesn't make planks from shrubs or bushes for the building of ships.

Edited by Apol
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I noticed that the sentence about the trees and flowers brought along by the steersmen is the second instance the OLB word for 'tree' is misspelled, or three/ðrê instead of trê .

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You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one.

It says kril.wod and later and in English Krylinger Wood.

How is krìl = bog? and then I don't think it's bog tree, it's bog-wood but it might not be bog - it might be small woods or curling woods, an arc shaped woods. It's elder or alder tree.

I'm only finding krìl as either small/tiny as per krill or curl. I understand it is in the marshes so could see it being a bog wood but what word are you using for krìl/bog?

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"kril" doesn't mean 'bog', but 'small' and so on.

It's just that these kind of shrubs/small trees happen to live in bogs.

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Wiarda, Richthofen, Hettema and Köbler all state that both bam and thre (tre, dre) mean 'tree' in Old Frisian. Wiarda even says that thre explicitly is called bam in the Hunsinger Landrecht”. In the OLB, however, there is in fact a difference between bâm and ðrê/trê. It says:

On ða bâma and ða trêjon grew pleasures and delights which are now lost (47/9-11).

I have reasoned: what does the difference between ðrê and bâm imply - is it about species, deciduous versus coniferous trees, size?

It is obvious not about species, because it says:

"...there are many foreign ðrê and flowers brought along by the steersmen" (107/31-33),

"...he [Alexander] had let his soldiers cut bâma and make planks (of them) [in Pangab]" (122/5-6), and in the laws:

…ða bâma, these ones no one can fell without common deliberation, and without the knowledge of the forester" (20/9-11).

In other words, it is obviously about trees in general.

It cannot be about deciduous versus coniferous trees either, because, as just mentioned, it grew 'pleasures and delights' on them - which it doesn't do on coniferous trees to a normal extent.

Then it is quite unavoidable that the difference should be about size. When Adela tried to come to the aid of three children who had rescued themselves upon a gravestone during a peat fire, she grabbed some elsne ('alder-') trêon and tried to make a bridge of them (95/32). To be sure, Adela was two meters tall, and surey as strong as an ox, but she would have had to go a long way in moving big trees; it's also doubtful how practical it would have been in the situation.

And the mythology says about Lyda that "...a large bâm she could bend, and when she walked no flower-stalk broke under her feet" (7/10-12), while it is said about Finda that "...she could not bend a ðrê, but where Lyda would kill a lion, there she killed rather ten" (7/32-8/2).

In other words, it looks like a ðrê/trê is a small tree, while bâm is a big tree. That a bâm is a big tree, is ascertained in the relation about Alexander the Great above, who let his soldiers cut bâma for making planks of them. One doesn't make planks from shrubs or bushes for the building of ships.

Lyda was bending a large beam - beam for the 3rd time, but whatever.

Maybe you don't use this word much, it's very common in English.

A beam is a structural element that is capable of withstanding load primarily by resisting bending. The bending force induced into the material of the beam as a result of the external loads, own weight, span and external reactions to these loads is called a bending moment.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam_(structure)


bâm

26, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Baum, Stammbaum, Galgen, Stange; ne. tree (N.),

familiy tree, gallows (N.), beam

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"kril" doesn't mean 'bog', but 'small' and so on.

It's just that these kind of shrubs/small trees happen to live in bogs.

"You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one"

OK good, cause you were totally confusing me.

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"You say bog wood, but actually it isbog tree, so still a tree. But yes, apparently a small one"

OK good, cause you were totally confusing me.

I was responding to Apol's translation.

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Lyda was bending a large beam - beam for the 3rd time, but whatever.

Maybe you don't use this word much, it's very common in English.

A beam is a structural element that is capable of withstanding load primarily by resisting bending. The bending force induced into the material of the beam as a result of the external loads, own weight, span and external reactions to these loads is called a bending moment.

http://en.wikipedia....Beam_(structure)

bâm

26, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Baum, Stammbaum, Galgen, Stange; ne. tree (N.),

familiy tree, gallows (N.), beam

And we still use "boom" (pronounced 'bohm'), meaning "tree".

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