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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Both bed and room are very old words - I know that this word hasn't been found in written form very earlier but see no reason to doubt it's use, it probably just got replaced with a fancy French word like boudoir but it's simply a bed space.

What's interesting, everyone has rum for room/roomy then Latin have rus - which is in the word Et rus cans - could be people of the fields, farmers, (which they were, their sage popped up from a field) an early version of Latin language Romans, same word really. Funny how both arrive in the same area coming from the same area (Anatolia apparently) I always found that in itself an unexplained mystery....

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/room

Edited by The Puzzler

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Both bed and room are very old words - I know that this word hasn't been found in written form very earlier but see no reason to doubt it's use, it probably just got replaced with a fancy French word like boudoir but it's simply a bed space.

What's interesting, everyone has rum for room/roomy then Latin have rus - which is in the word Et rus cans - could be people of the fields, farmers, (which they were, their sage popped up from a field) an early version of Latin language Romans, same word really. Funny how both arrive in the same area coming from the same area (Anatolia apparently) I always found that in itself an unexplained mystery....

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/room

My trouble is since reading OLB and hearing about the Rus and the Magi , .......now i keep thinking i see them everwhere.......eg .. on this same verse 27 ,

Many Amazons were buried in Athens , some who were injured were taken secretly to Chalcis to be nursed , and the Megarians too show places in their country where Amazons were buried , on the market place by the Rhus ( a stream ).........and i am thinking here they are again Magiara and the Rus ??

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If Bill Gates decides to walk stark naked in the middle of New york...

We were talking extremely rich, right?

When *I* am talking extremely rich and powerful, I don't mean puppets like Billyboy Gates.

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Abe ....I know you are not a fan of the word ...Bedrum in the OLB....... how about it was a shortening of the word Boedromia ?

plutarch......parallel lives.........Life of Theseus.......verse 27... re the attack of the Amazons.

.. Theseus sacrificed to fear , in obedience to an oracle , then joined battle with the Amazons , this battle was joined on the day of the month Boedromion , on which , down to the present time , the Athenians celebrate the Boedromia .

havent been able to find out what this was , some festival or sacrificial day ?? but as it is Athenians celebrating it , then presumably Minerva-Nyhellenia could have brought it from Frisia , and it would be a well known Frisian event.......

Oh, I do like the word. It means what it is supposed to mean: BEDROOM. And a word not older than the 16th century.

But I don't think "the month Boedromion" has much to do with it...

Hwil that alrek drok to kaempane wêre, was thêr en wla Fin to thêre flête jefta bedrum fon thêre Moder inglupth, ând wilde hja nêdgja.

Sandbach:

While the fight was going on, a rascally Finn stole into the chamber of the mother, and would have done her violence.

alr-ek, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. all-er-a-ek

al-l-er-a-ek 83, al-l-er-ek, al-r-Ðk, afries., Pron.: nhd. jeder; ne. every (Pron.); ÜG.:

lat. quÆlibet AB (88, 17); Hw.: s. el-lik, man-n-ik; Q.: R, F, B, E, H, W, AB (88,

17); E.: s. al-l, el-lik; L.: Hh 2b, Rh 599b

drok = DU: "druk", EN: busy.

fle-t-t-a?, afries., sw. V. (1): Vw.: s. fle-t-e

fle-t-t 6, fle-t, afries., Sb.: nhd. Haus, Ehe; ne. house (N.), matrimony; Vw.: s. fora-,

-jef-t-ich, -jev-e; Hw.: vgl. an. flet, ae. fl’tt, as. fl’t*; Q.: W, Jur; E.: germ.

*flatja-, *flatjam, st. N. (a), Hausflur, Fleet; s. idg. *plÀt-, (*plÀd-), *plÁt-, *plÅt-,

*plýt-, Adj., breit, flach, Pokorny 833; vgl. idg. *pelý-, *plõ-, *p¢h2i-, Adj., V., breit,

flach, breiten, schlagen, klatschen, Pokorny 805; L.: Hh 28b, Rh 746a

nê-d-ig-ia 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. nötigen, notzüchtigen,

vergewaltigen; ne. force (V.), rape (V.); Hw.: vgl. ahd. nætagæn*; Q.: E, H, W, R;

E.: s. nê-d; L.: Hh 75b, Rh 946

http://koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html

nêdgja: DU: neuken

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/neuken

My translation:

While everyone was busy fighting, there was a dirty Fin who had sneaked into the house, or bedroom, of the Mother and wanted to f_ her.

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When *I* am talking extremely rich and powerful, I don't mean puppets like Billyboy Gates.

Yeah, I think what you're getting at: those you think are behind it all are those who wandered in a desert thousands of years ago before settling down and write a 'holy book', and then "took over the world".

But I think you're wrong although I also know whole 'hate sites' thrive on that nonsense.

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Some notes to the existing translations

OLB (original manuscript) page 4, line 25 to page 5, line 7;

followed by the Dutch and English translations from Ottema and Sandbach (1876, page 9-11).

SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE [1]

NÀMMER TO WINNADE [2]

HOR HRVCH [=> THRVCH] LESA [=> LESTA] NER THRVCH WÉPNE [3]

SA HAGATH J TO NVDANDE [4]

HAT [=> THAT] JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE. [5]

bijaldien gij echte Fryas kinderen wilt zijn,

nimmer te overwinnen

noch door list noch door wapenen,

zoo behoort gij er voor te waken,

dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden.

if you wish to remain true children of Frya,

never to be vanquished

by fraud or arms,

you must take care

to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters.

BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA. [6]

HO GRAT VS LÁND ÉR WÉSEN SÍ.

HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON. [7]

HO GRÁT WI JETA SEND

SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA. [8]

Den kinderen moet men leeren,

hoe groot ons land weleer geweest is,

hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren,

hoe groot wij nog zijn,

zoo wij ons neder liggen (vergelijken) bij anderen:

You must teach the children

how great our country has been,

what great men our forefathers were,

how great we still are,

if we compare ourselves to others.

MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM [9]

FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM. [10]

ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA. [11]

men moet hun vertellen

van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden,

ook over de verre zeetochten.

You must tell them

of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds

and distant voyages.

AL THISSA TÀLLINGA [12]

HAGATH DÉN TO WERTHANDE BY THÉRE HÉRD. [13]

VPPA HÉM ÀND HWÉR.ET WÉSA MÉI.

SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM. [14]

Alle deze verhalen

behooren gedaan te worden bij den haard,

op het hiem, en waar het wezen moge,

zoo in blijdschap, als bij tranen.

All these stories

must be told by the fireside

and in the field, wherever it may be,

in times of joy or sorrow;

MEM [=> MEN] SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA [15]

AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA. [16]

THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA [17]

OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA.

Maar zal het standhoudend komen

in het brein en in het hart,

dan moeten alle leeringen

over de lippen uwer vrouwen en dochteren daarin vloeijen.

and if you wish to impress it

on the brains and the hearts of your sons,

you must let it flow

through the lips of your wives and your daughters.

Notes

[1] SAWERSA J ÀFTA FRYA.S.BÀRN WILLE

Ottema translated "WILLE" as "wilt zijn" (wish to be), Sandbach as "wish to remain". Jensma assumes that the word "BILYWA" was forgotten by the copyist and translates "wilt blijven" (wish to remain).

These are all interpretations, assuming that the Fryas believed in a sort of reincanation; that they would live forth in their children. Ofcourse this is possible, but the text literally says: "if you want real Fryas-children" (indien u echte Fryaskinderen wilt), in other words: if you want your offspring to be real children of Frya. This is not the same as "if you want to be" or "to remain", unless one assumes that parents live forth in their descendants.

[2] NÀMMER TO WINNADE

Sandbach has "never to be vanquished". I'd suggest "never to be won".

[3] HOR THRVCH LESTA NER THRVCH WÉPNE

S: (never) by fraud or arms => nor through sleight, nor through weapons

[4] HAGATH J TO NVDANDE

This is a good example to show that the OLB language is not a simple one-on-one translation from 19th century Dutch into Oldfrisian, as Knul claims.

O: behoort gij er voor te waken

S: you must take care

Literally it would be "acht u te noden" (you ought to need), which sounds absurd.

[5] THAT JVWE TOGHATERA ÀFTA FRYA WIVA WRDE

O: dat uwe dochters echte Fryas vrouwen worden

S: to bring up your daughters as true Frya's daughters

"FRYA WIVA" can be translated as "Frya wives" or "free wives". Sandbach's translation is not good IMO. I'd suggest: "that your daughters become true free (Frya) wives".

[6] BÀRN MOT MÀN LÉRA

S: You must teach the children => One must teach children (likewise [9])

[7] HOKKE GRATE MÀNNISKA VSA ÉTHLA WÉRON

Both Ottema and Sandbach are wrong.

O: hoe groote mannen onze voorvaderen waren

S: what great men our forefathers were

"MÀNNISKA" is "people" (Dutch/ German: mensen/ menschen) and "ÉTHLA" is ancestors, so this fragment is sex-neutral.

[8] SA WI VS DÀL LEDSATH BY ORA

S: if we compare ourselves to others

Literally: "as we lay us down by others".

[9] MÀN MOT TÁLA HJAM

S: "You must tell them" => "One must tell them" (as [6])

[10] FON THA WICHARDA ÀND FON HJARA WICHANDLIKA DÉDUM

O: van de zeehelden en van hunne heldhaftige daden

S: of the sea-heroes, of their mighty deeds

"WICHARDA" simply means "heroes". I'd change "mighty" into "heroic".

[11] ÀK WRA FÀRA SÉ.TOCHTA

S: and distant voyages => also of distant sea-voyages

[12] AL THISSA TÀLLINGA

O: Alle deze verhalen => vertellingen

S: All these stories => tales

[13] BY THÉRE HÉRD

S: by the fireside => hearth

[14] SÁ BY BLÍSKIP AS BÍ TARUM

S: in times of joy or sorrow => tears

[15] MEN SKIL.ET STANDFÀST KVMA

S: and if you wish to impress it

=> but shall it come standing-fast (permanent)

[16] AN DET BRYN ÀND AN DÀT HIRTA

S: on the brains and the hearts of your sons

=> on the brain and on the heart

[17] THÀN MOTON ALLE LÉRINGA

OVERA WÉRA JVWERA WIVA ÀND TOGHATERA THÉR.IN STRÁMA

S: you must let it flow

through the lips of your wives and your daughters

=> then all teachings must

stream over the lips of your wives and daughters

=====

It is striking how Ottema and Sandbach have changed this fragment into something more male-dominant.

Now I'd like to ask a native English speaker (Puzzler?) to summarise the meaning of this fragment, in your own words, as I think it explains very well why the enemies of the Fryas would have wanted to destroy the old indigenous written and oral traditions.

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... if a newspaper publishes something he really doesn't like, he'll buy the newspaper.

Bravo!

Who owns the mass-media?

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You mean the [...] Frisians [...] would start a revolution or something?

No.

Women.

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I don't see any "pre-christian sentiment" here.

LOL - why do you think it is named the BATAVIAN revolution?

Mind the symbolism (women, fasces, etc):

Bataafsche_Vrijheid_H_Roosing.jpg

Het_wapen_de_geus_op_de_Bataafse_vlag.jpg

bataafse_republiek_model_vlag.jpg

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Tha wepmen weren iwaxen..........................The men were numerous

and tha heore nutene....................................and the cattle abundant....................nutene = abundant so maybe a nuts connection ??

"wepmen - iwaxen" => weapon-men (warriers) grown (in number)?

"nutene" seems indeed connected to enough (Dutch: genoeg / genoegen / geneugte / genoten)

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Not scared at all.

There is no reason to be scared.

But there are very good reasons to not believe everything one learns at school and from mass media.

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Concerning the sensitivity of the info in the OLB, and earlier attempts to intimidate its advocates, some relevant fragments.

Cornelis Over de Linden to Dr. Ottema, 16-11-1871:

I don't have the slightest doubts that one day the truth will come float to the surface, but now that I have studied your translation, I figure that the laws described in it are very radical, and that when the theology it teaches would become that of the people again, all sorts of clergymen would have to find a new job. That is why I think they will oppose it as much as is in their power.

Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 24-06-1876:

I wish someone would act who is courageous enough to defend the OLB in public, without fear for the systematic intimidation.

Because all the howling is intimidation, started by Spectator magazine and systematically sustained.

There are enough proponents, but they dare not speak, out of fear of being declared fool or villain.

Source: fryskednis/letters-ottema-over-de-linden

.

Fragment of "Het Oera-Linda-Boek in Duitschland en hier" (The OLB in Germany and here), by Dr. Murk de Jong (1939), about the way Herman Wirth was silenced by Nazi-'scientists'.

Door een (gekortwiekte) vertaling had hij het voor het Duitsche volk toegankelijk gemaakt. Het sloeg in. Onderwijzers namen het mee naar school om er de jeugd uit voor te lezen, zoo goed als Wirth het op den katheder den studenten deed. Een Oera-Linda-cultus dreigde, met Wirth als profeet.

Maar ook een crisis in de Duitsche wetenschap. [...]

In koortsachtige opwinding werd alles in het werk gesteld om Wirth of het O.L.B., dat kwam vrijwel op het zelfde neer, tegen de vlakte te slaan. [...]

Er is tenslotte op den 4den Mei 1934 een groote demonstratie van Duitsche geleerden noodig geweest, om Wirth voorlopig het zwijgen op te leggen. Een demonstratie was het, meer dan een wetenschappelijk debat [...]

Translation:

With a (shortened) translation he had made it accessible for the German people. It was a smasher. Teachers took it to school to read it to the youth, like Wirth did for his students at university. An Oera-Linda-cult impended, with Wirth as its prophet.

But also a crisis in German science. [...]

In feverish fuss all was done to crush Wirth or the OLB, that was virtually the same. [...]

Finnally on the 4th of May 1934, it took a great demonstration of German scientists, to silence Wirth for the time being. A demonstartion (show) it was, more than a scientific debate [...]

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No.

Women.

Jeesh, is this about women demanding equal rights or something? Or acknowledgement for their role in European prehistory?

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LOL - why do you think it is named the BATAVIAN revolution?

Mind the symbolism (women, fasces, etc):

Bataafsche_Vrijheid_H_Roosing.jpg

Het_wapen_de_geus_op_de_Bataafse_vlag.jpg

bataafse_republiek_model_vlag.jpg

I had a bit of a different idea about what you may have meant with those 'pre-christian sentiments'.

This is nothing but romanticism.

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There is no reason to be scared.

But there are very good reasons to not believe everything one learns at school and from mass media.

That's because Puzz quoted Mario Dantas who said this:

I really am ridiculously scared to talk about this. I find that the grave accusations made here, reflect all the psychological weight of the subject, so no need to say more.

-

What is being learned about history at school often differs from country to country. When you are aware of that, you can start connecting the dots..... and still find nothing about the OLB or an unknown and ancient European civilization.

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Jeesh, is this about women demanding equal rights or something? Or acknowledgement for their role in European prehistory?

Though their ideas met with a lot of criticism, the views of the next two people were not swept under the carpet:

Marija Gimbutas

http://en.wikipedia....Marija_Gimbutas

Robert Graves.

http://en.wikipedia....e_White_Goddess

The White Goddess has been seen as a poetic work where Graves gives his notion of man's subjection to women in love an "anthropological grandeur" and further mythologises all women in general (and several of Graves's lovers in specific) into a three-faced moon goddess model. Graves's value as a poet aside, flaws in his scholarship such as poor philology, use of inadequate texts and out-dated archaeology have been criticised. Some scholars, particularly archaeologists, historians and folklorists have not received the work favourably. Graves was disappointed that his work was "loudly ignored" by many Celtic scholars; however, it was accepted as history by many non-scholarly readers and, according to Ronald Hutton, The White Goddess remains a major source of confusion about the ancient Celts and influences many un-scholarly views of Celtic paganism. Hilda Ellis Davidson criticized Graves as having "misled many innocent readers with his eloquent but deceptive statements about a nebulous goddess in early Celtic literature", and stated that he was "no authority" on the subject matter he presented. While Graves made the association between Goddesses and the moon appear "natural," it was not so to the Celts or some other ancient peoples. Some Neopagans have been bemused and upset by the scholarly criticism that The White Goddess has received in recent years, while others have appreciated its poetic insight but never accepted it as a work of historical veracity.

Michael W. Pharand, though quoting earlier criticisms, rebutted, "Graves's theories and conclusions, outlandish as they seemed to his contemporaries (or may appear to us), were the result of careful observation."

In response to critics, Graves has accused literary scholars of being psychologically incapable of interpreting myth or too concerned with maintaining their perquisites to go against the majority view. (See Frazer quote.)

http://en.wikipedia....ddess#Criticism

Graves' book online:

http://72.52.202.216/~fenderse/The-White-Goddess.pdf

An analysis:

http://rogerbourke.iinet.net.au/QUARTO-MISTRESS.pdf

Triple Goddess:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_%28Neopaganism%29

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_%28Neopaganism%29

Edited by Abramelin

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Oh, I do like the word. It means what it is supposed to mean: BEDROOM. And a word not older than the 16th century.

But I don't think "the month Boedromion" has much to do with it...

Hwil that alrek drok to kaempane wêre, was thêr en wla Fin to thêre flête jefta bedrum fon thêre Moder inglupth, ând wilde hja nêdgja.

Sandbach:

While the fight was going on, a rascally Finn stole into the chamber of the mother, and would have done her violence.

alr-ek, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. all-er-a-ek

al-l-er-a-ek 83, al-l-er-ek, al-r-Ðk, afries., Pron.: nhd. jeder; ne. every (Pron.); ÜG.:

lat. quÆlibet AB (88, 17); Hw.: s. el-lik, man-n-ik; Q.: R, F, B, E, H, W, AB (88,

17); E.: s. al-l, el-lik; L.: Hh 2b, Rh 599b

drok = DU: "druk", EN: busy.

fle-t-t-a?, afries., sw. V. (1): Vw.: s. fle-t-e

fle-t-t 6, fle-t, afries., Sb.: nhd. Haus, Ehe; ne. house (N.), matrimony; Vw.: s. fora-,

-jef-t-ich, -jev-e; Hw.: vgl. an. flet, ae. fl’tt, as. fl’t*; Q.: W, Jur; E.: germ.

*flatja-, *flatjam, st. N. (a), Hausflur, Fleet; s. idg. *plÀt-, (*plÀd-), *plÁt-, *plÅt-,

*plýt-, Adj., breit, flach, Pokorny 833; vgl. idg. *pelý-, *plõ-, *p¢h2i-, Adj., V., breit,

flach, breiten, schlagen, klatschen, Pokorny 805; L.: Hh 28b, Rh 746a

nê-d-ig-ia 1 und häufiger?, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. nötigen, notzüchtigen,

vergewaltigen; ne. force (V.), rape (V.); Hw.: vgl. ahd. nætagæn*; Q.: E, H, W, R;

E.: s. nê-d; L.: Hh 75b, Rh 946

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

nêdgja: DU: neuken

http://www.etymologi...refwoord/neuken

My translation:

While everyone was busy fighting, there was a dirty Fin who had sneaked into the house, or bedroom, of the Mother and wanted to f_ her.

Ok and not , while everyone was fighting drunk , after the bedromia (ie the celebrations they had all come for ) a drunken Finn sneaked into the mothers house , to have his way with her .

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No.

On that site you linked to, it does not say "neuken" is related to "nêdgja" or "nêdigia".

NÉDGJA => nodigen, noden, noodzaken, dwingen (to force someone)

source: gtb.inl.nl/nodigen

Oldfrisian dictionary - Hettema (1832):

nedga, neda, nedera, nednima; naeedje, naeerje, naeednimje; schaken verkrachten (to rape)

(I think "neuken" is related to geneugte, genot, NOCHTA => pleasure, but oldschool etymology does not agree yet.)

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Ok and not , while everyone was fighting drunk , after the bedromia (ie the celebrations they had all come for ) a drunken Finn sneaked into the mothers house , to have his way with her .

"Drok" doesn't mean 'drunk', but "busy" or "druk" in Dutch. An older form is "drock(e)" :

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=07869

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/druk1

-

LOL, what celebrations?? The word is not 'bedromia', but simply "bedrvm" or ''bedroom".

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=07869

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/druk1

"Jefta" means "or", not "after"

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No.

On that site you linked to, it does not say "neuken" is related to "nêdgja" or "nêdigia".

NÉDGJA => nodigen, noden, noodzaken, dwingen (to force someone)

source: gtb.inl.nl/nodigen

Oldfrisian dictionary - Hettema (1832):

nedga, neda, nedera, nednima; naeedje, naeerje, naeednimje; schaken verkrachten (to rape)

(I think "neuken" is related to geneugte, genot, NOCHTA => pleasure, but oldschool etymology does not agree yet.)

This is what it also says: on.(old Norse): hnykkja

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This is what it also says: on.(old Norse): hnykkja

So "neuken" has an oldnorse equivalent.

That does not mean "neuken" is related to Oldfrisian NÉDGJA (nedga, neda, etc.)

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Ok and not , while everyone was fighting drunk , after the bedromia (ie the celebrations they had all come for ) a drunken Finn sneaked into the mothers house , to have his way with her .

Ok then we are not allowed by your reckoning to play around with the meaning behind the words.. so by your way what does that sentence say , word for word ?

Hwil that alrek drok to Kaempane were................................You say it says

while that every or to .............................what did the whole of the sentence say word for word.. and does it make sense , or do you need to interpret it ??

what is the (or to ) doing there it does not help make sense of the sentence ?? alrek means every , drok means or .

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Just going back to 'tohnekka' and hnekka/neck

The word tunic is of possible Etruscan origin - so if Fryans were in Near Krekaland it's possible they shared this word - then it passed into Latin as a clothing item that went to your/around your neck - most clothing that is, togas etc.

If it means 'to the neck' it is quite possibly an IE word and makes perfect sense in Fryan of the meaning and spelling in the OLB word used. The word also led me to think the word 'knickers' might be connected - which means 'an undergarment' - either way - I do not think the word is from Latin into Fryan OLB.

I did a Google and looks like one of Tony Steele's? fam's has given this tidbit about her outfit: The tohnekka (a word that is apparently related to "tunic", but which literally means "to the neck") is shown in my avatar picture. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/41876-special-religious-garments.html

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No.

On that site you linked to, it does not say "neuken" is related to "nêdgja" or "nêdigia".

NÉDGJA => nodigen, noden, noodzaken, dwingen (to force someone)

source: gtb.inl.nl/nodigen

Oldfrisian dictionary - Hettema (1832):

nedga, neda, nedera, nednima; naeedje, naeerje, naeednimje; schaken verkrachten (to rape)

(I think "neuken" is related to geneugte, genot, NOCHTA => pleasure, but oldschool etymology does not agree yet.)

Ya reckon?

Interesting. I could get back to a PIE type word meaning 'to be exhausted' - which could possibly be a root for 'enough' - ie; I've had enough = I'm exhausted.

I can see PIE doesn't give it, but when 2 PIE words can have the same meaning, it gives me cause to think they could share a root - so, yeah, could be.

Edited by The Puzzler

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