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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Btw, every time Sandbach uses "neck" in his translation, the original says "hals".

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

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The OLB says a troop of Far Krekalanders who had taken Troy came and settled Rum, spacious. This word appears as a general IE word for roomy. The Fryans did not name Rome, the Greeks did, using a word that was also in the Fryan language - so the Greeks who named it must have spoken a same/similar language - which is probably many of the IE roots, which could have went into Greek, Athens, Attica, where the Fryans were, then passed back along, so, the same in Italy, the Fryans would have passed on many words with etymological meanings only found in Fryan/Frisian then they appear in written Latin and we know of them there first, but from where did they arrive into these languages? Sure some Hittite, some Phoenician in Greek, which as the OLB has it, might be Fryan influenced too - so there is good explanations for how words of Frisian descent ended up in Latin as unknown meanings of words they then used.

It's a chicken or the egg scenario really and no real winner, I could argue that for every word, but concentrating just on words that have a clear etymologically meaning in Frisian or older Fryan against one whose etymology is unknown is worth a little effort imo.

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The images I posted are examples of ancient and modern times, and as you can see, not reaching up to the neck.

And I said that the Semitic etymology is a probable one, even though based on 'cotton', but the Latin word 'tunica' is very probably the source of the OLB word tohnekka.

See my answer in post #3402 - chicken or the egg until I can find more info for now.

hals...it never ends, lol - I'll check it out more.

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Btw, every time Sandbach uses "neck" in his translation, the original says "hals".

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

hals might mean 'head'.

heil-a

3, *hagila?, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Kopf; ne. head

Edited by The Puzzler

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hals might mean 'head'.

Lol, no, it's very Dutch and Frisian or Germanic for neck/throat.

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See my answer in post #3402 - chicken or the egg until I can find more info for now.

hals...it never ends, lol - I'll check it out more.

You know who started the "to hnekka" instead of "tohnekka" thing?

Ottema, and Sandbach dutifully copied it.

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hal-s 50 und häufiger?, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Hals, Halsbuße, Leben, Mensch;

ne. neck (N.), loss of neck, life; ÜG.: lat. (collum) K 16; Vw.: s. frÆ-*, -bæt-e, -dæk,

-fa-n-g, -frÆ-a-inge, -gol-d, -kna-p-p*, -krÆg-a, -krÆg-e, -lam-ithe, -râ-f, -si-n-e, -si-n-ekerf,

-slêk, -wer-d-ene; Hw.: s. hal-s-e; vgl. got. hals*, an. hals, ae. heals, as. *hals?,

ahd. hals (1); Q.: H, W, R, B, S, F, E, K 16; E.: germ. *halsa-, *halsaz, st. M. (a),

Hals; idg. *kÝolso-, Sb., Hals, Pokorny 639; s. idg. *kÝel- (1), *kÝelý-, *kÝelh1-, V.,

drehen, sich drehen, sich bewegen, wohnen, Pokorny 639; vgl. idg. *kel- (1),

*kelý-, V., Adj., ragen, hoch, Falk/Torp 82, Pokorny 544?; W.: nfries. hals; W.:

saterl. hals;

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

You will see another old word for 'hals' show up, and it's 'keel' (pronounced 'keyhl' ).

We still use both words. We use 'nek' for the part under-behind your ears.

'Hals/keel' is the part below your chin.

(jeesh, lol).

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:

O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

Puzz, as you can see, "hals" must mean 'neck' here.

=

And NO-ID-EA, here "slâvona" obviously means 'slaves'.

So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".

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On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:

It's remarkable that one-and-the-same word (undigerhéd) was translated in different ways (four by Sandbach, three by Ottema and Jensma):

...........Ottema (1872)......Jensma (2006)......Sandbach (1872)

p.099/04...zorgeloosheid......onzorgvuldigheid...carelessness

p.152/11...onvoorzichtigheid..onvoorzichtigheid..imprudence

p.161/02...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....inconsiderateness

p.203/19...onbezonnenheid.....onoplettendheid....thoughtlessness

Does anyone know a word from another language (English, German, Scandinavian?) that is moren similar to "undigerhéd"?

The word "DIGER" is used three times in the OLB, but the meaning does not become very clear.

[093/20]

ALLERA MÀNNELIK JEF TO AN MERY FRU ÀND BLÍDE

ÀND NINMAN NÉDE DIGER THAN TO ÁKANE SINA NOCHT.

[O+S p.131]

Iedereen gaf toe aan lustige vreugde en blijdschap,

en niemand had zorg dan zijn vermaak [genoegen] na te jagen.

everybody gave himself up to pleasure and merry-making,

and no one thought of anything but diversion

or more litterally:

All people gave in to merry frolic and bliss (or joy),

and no-one had care about anything but to seek pleasure.

[143/25]

MEN FRYA.S FOLK IS DIGER ÀND FLITICH.

HJA WRDON MOD NER WIRG

THRVCHDAM HJARA DOL TO THA BESTA LÉIDE.

[O+S p.195]

Maar Fryas volk is wakker en vlijtig,

zij werden moede noch mat,

omdat hun doel ten beste geleidde.

but Frya's people [are careful and diligent]

[they] were neither tired nor exhausted

when [since] they had a good object in view.

[154/27]

THACH SAND HI A.DEL NÉI THÉRE BURCH ET TEX.LAND

TIL THJU HI DIGER BI DIGER KVD WERTHA MACHTA.

MITH ELLA HWAT TO VSA ÉWA TÁLE ÀND SEDUM HÉRETH.

[O+S p.209]

[toch] zond hij toch Adel naar de burgt te Texland,

opdat hij hoe eer hoe beter bekend worden mocht

met alles wat tot onze wetten, taal en zeden behoort.

Jensma: "door en door zorgvuldig"; very carefully

[yet] he sent Adel to the citadel of Texland

in order to make himself better acquainted

with our laws, language, and customs.

This is yet another example of how - even in Dutch - translation is not always easy.

It shows that Knul's statement, that OLB is just a word-for-word translation of a Dutch text, can not be right.

Richthofen (1840)

diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2

gtb.inl.nl/terdege

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hal-s 50 und häufiger?, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Hals, Halsbuße, Leben, Mensch;

ne. neck (N.), loss of neck, life; ÜG.: lat. (collum) K 16; Vw.: s. frÆ-*, -bæt-e, -dæk,

-fa-n-g, -frÆ-a-inge, -gol-d, -kna-p-p*, -krÆg-a, -krÆg-e, -lam-ithe, -râ-f, -si-n-e, -si-n-ekerf,

-slêk, -wer-d-ene; Hw.: s. hal-s-e; vgl. got. hals*, an. hals, ae. heals, as. *hals?,

ahd. hals (1); Q.: H, W, R, B, S, F, E, K 16; E.: germ. *halsa-, *halsaz, st. M. (a),

Hals; idg. *kÝolso-, Sb., Hals, Pokorny 639; s. idg. *kÝel- (1), *kÝelý-, *kÝelh1-, V.,

drehen, sich drehen, sich bewegen, wohnen, Pokorny 639; vgl. idg. *kel- (1),

*kelý-, V., Adj., ragen, hoch, Falk/Torp 82, Pokorny 544?; W.: nfries. hals; W.:

saterl. hals;

http://koeblergerhar...rieswbhinw.html

You will see another old word for 'hals' show up, and it's 'keel' (pronounced 'keyhl' ).

We still use both words. We use 'nek' for the part under-behind your ears.

'Hals/keel' is the part below your chin.

(jeesh, lol).

.

OK fair enough - I missed that somehow - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

I see the difference - hals is your THROAT part of your neck and hnekka is your NAPE (back of your neck) - so really describing parts of your neck.

Edited by The Puzzler

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OK fair enough - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

Indeed, there are many examples of different words having (almost) the same meaning in OLB, as in any language.

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OK fair enough - hals is neck, but that doesn't mean hnekka isn't also neck, used in different context maybe.

But the word is used nowhere in the OLB, only in a combination (if that's what it really is): tohnekka.

And that was Ottema's idea, probably based on the old form "hnekka" for neck he had read in an Old Frisian dictionary.

I can imagine that TOHNEKKA is nothing but the way they pronounced TUNICA ("tonekka").

.

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On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:

Richthofen (1840)

diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2

gtb.inl.nl/terdege

I think I said 'undignified' at the time but that was only based on the sound of the word.

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But the word is used nowhere in the OLB, only in a combination (if that's what it really is): tohnekka.

And that was Ottema's idea, probably based on the old form "hnekka" for neck he had read in an Old Frisian dictionary.

I can imagine that TOHNEKKA is nothing but the way they pronounced TUNICA ("tonekka").

.

Could be the context of your NAPE of your neck was less common that the use in context of your THROAT, which alluded to death, end of life, slit your throat. Nape may have only been used in a few words, maybe only one, to-hnekka Therefore it became common usage to use hals for your neck, rather than nape, even though the word neck stems from the nape meaning. English language doesn't use it although it was heals but we use neck and nape.

In neck I noticed this meaning: The part of a shirt, dress etc., which fits a person's neck.

tohnekka may have to do with going over ones head, around your neck, rather than being a length meaning.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Could be the context of your NAPE of your neck was less common that the use in context of your THROAT, which alluded to death, end of life, slit your throat. Nape may have only been used in a few words, maybe only one, to-hnekka Therefore it became common usage to use hals for your neck, rather than nape, even though the word neck stems from the nape meaning. English language doesn't use it although it was heals but we use neck and nape.

In neck I noticed this meaning: The part of a shirt, dress etc., which fits a person's neck.

tohnekka may have to do with going over ones head, around your neck, rather than being a length meaning.

I think I'm going to dream of 'tohnekkas' tonight , lol.

-

But Ottema (and thus Sandbach) suggested it meant something like "to(wards) the neck", not around the neck.

Anyway, i have tried to find what 'tunica' is in other languages, but they all use 'tunica' or 'tunika' or a very similar form.

Only the Italians have another form: "tonaca" :

tonaca f (plural tonache)

habit (monk's clothing)

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tonaca#Italian

This is what Google images gives me for 'tonaca':

prete%20tonaca.jpg

Doesn't look much like monk's clothing.

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Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:

O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

Puzz, as you can see, "hals" must mean 'neck' here.

=

And NO-ID-EA, here "slâvona" obviously means 'slaves'.

So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".

skalk is more like skulk, which is a person who is doing a bad thing, skulking around, lurking - a servant waiting in the shadows... but I see slave there in the Frisian dictionary.

Then I was thinking of another word, that might sound like slave but not be slave, thinking of slovenly. The associated words bring to mind words that might be used for slaves. Nothing solid but just a thought.

slovenly (adj.) dictionary.gif 1510s, "low, base, lewd," later "untidy, dirty" (1560s), from sloven + -ly (1).

sloven (n.) dictionary.gif mid-15c., "immoral woman," later also "rascal, knave" (regardless of gender); probably from Middle Flemish sloovin "a scold," related to sloef "untidy, shabby," from Proto-Germanic *slup- (cf. Dutch slof "careless, negligent") http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

Another example where the word slave might have a different root meaning to what we know - so it could be a meaning for slave - but not connect to what we know as slave etymology.

Anyway, slaves and tohnekkas, I'm probably gonna have some scary Planet of the Apes dream or something, must sleep, goodnight.

Edited by The Puzzler
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LOL, good night, Puzz.

I think the next is the post plausible origin of the word "slave" (and take note of the bolded dates):

slave (n.)

late 13c., "person who is the property of another," from Old French esclave (13c.), from Medieval Latin Sclavus "slave" (cf. Italian schiavo, French esclave, Spanish esclavo), originally "Slav" (see Slav), so called because of the many Slavs sold into slavery by conquering peoples.

"This sense development arose in the consequence of the wars waged by Otto the Great and his successors against the Slavs, a great number of whom they took captive and sold into slavery. [Klein]"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=slave

Slav

late 14c., Sclave, from Medieval Latin Sclavus (c.800), from Byzantine Greek Sklabos (c.580), from Old Church Slavonic Sloveninu "a Slav," probably related to slovo "word, speech," which suggests the name originally meant member of a speech community (cf. Old Church Slavonic Nemici "Germans," related to nemu "dumb;" and cf. Old English þeode, which meant both "race" and "language").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Slav&allowed_in_frame=0

The final copy of the OLB was supposedly written in 1256 CE.

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Like Puzz, I have read here and there that the Latin "tunica" is probably a loanword from the Etruscan language.

But I couldn't find anything more about it.

Is it just based on some Etruscan wall painting of clothing resembling a Roman tunica, or is it based on some word in the Etruscan language?

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On 25 October 2011, Poltergeist said:

Richthofen (1840)

diger (treu, sorgsam): 'ende by da lena ursumeth, dat hi ne naet dygher urwerrie, also dygher so dy mynscha selm pligit to bywarien' Jur.2,28 und 'hweerso een wyff her kynd naet habbe bywareth myt aller digerheyt' (sorgsamkeit) Jur.2,168. Isl. dygger (fidus). Vgl. te deghe (integre) bei Kilian 103.

Related to DIGER are the Dutch words "degelijk" and "terdege".

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 1

gtb.inl.nl/degelijk 2

gtb.inl.nl/terdege

If i could have read Poltergeists post in 2011 , i would have replied the word undigerhed reminds me of undignified same as puzzler , i was also into Sumerian transcriptions at the time , and may have mentioned the sumerian word Dinger , for Royalty or nobility . maybe same conotation ? un-noble,

from the etymology text i read Hals means more specifically Collar , still relating to neck , as in collar bone , and collar of a shirt , but also poss as an iron collar for a slave , and therfore poss related to a tourniquet , cable-tow ( freemasons still wear one at an initiation by the way ) or a noose .

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Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:

O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

Puzz, as you can see, "hals" must mean 'neck' here.

=

And NO-ID-EA, here "slâvona" obviously means 'slaves'.

So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".

Thanks Abe , what is your opinion that the Slavs got their name then because they were slaves ? and is Boppa the Pope ?

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Men, o dvmhêd. Dâhwila wi to dvande send ekkorum to skâdane, kvmth-et nidige folk Findas mith hjara falska presterum jvw hâva to râwande, jvwa toghatera to skaendane, jvwa sêda to vrdva aend to tha lesta klaeppath hja slâvona banda om jahwelikes frya hals.

Sandbach:

O foolish people! while you are injuring each other the spiteful Finda’s people with their false priests come and attack your ports, ravish your daughters, corrupt your morals, and at last throw the bonds of slavery over every freeman’s neck.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#an

jvw hâva to râwande - wrong translation 'ports'. hâva means goods, possesions (Dutch: have).

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If i could have read Poltergeists post in 2011 , i would have replied the word undigerhed reminds me of undignified same as puzzler , i was also into Sumerian transcriptions at the time , and may have mentioned the sumerian word Dinger , for Royalty or nobility . maybe same conotation ? un-noble,

from the etymology text i read Hals means more specifically Collar , still relating to neck , as in collar bone , and collar of a shirt , but also poss as an iron collar for a slave , and therfore poss related to a tourniquet , cable-tow ( freemasons still wear one at an initiation by the way ) or a noose .

Yes, got it, like a HALter - halter neck shirt - I couldn't think of an English word that kept the hals meaning but halter would be one.

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Thanks Abe , what is your opinion that the Slavs got their name then because they were slaves ? and is Boppa the Pope ?

It certainly looks like the Slavs got their name for being slaves; look at post #3418

"boppa" is 'boven' or up, above.

++++

EDIT:

Lol, it's the other way round of course: slaves got their 'name' for often being Slavs who were captured and forced to serve a master.

EDIT:

It appears to be a bit complicated:

The Slavic autonym is reconstructed in Proto-Slavic as Slověninъ. The oldest documents written in Old Church Slavonic and dating from the 9th century attest Словѣне Slověne to describe the Slavs. Other early Slavic attestations include Old East Slavic Словѣнѣ Slověně for "an East Slavic group near Novgorod." However, the earliest written references to the Slavs under this name are in other languages. In the 6th century CE Procopius, writing in Byzantine Greek, refers to the Σκλάβοι Sklaboi, Σκλαβηνοί Sklabēnoi, Σκλαυηνοί Sklauenoi, Σθλαβηνοί Sthlauenoi, or Σκλαβῖνοι Sklabinoi, while his contemporary Jordanes refers to the Sclaveni in Latin.

The Slavic autonym Slověninъ is usually considered a derivation from slovo "word", originally denoting "people who speak (the same language)," i.e. people who understand each other, in contrast to the Slavic word denoting "foreign people" – němci, meaning "mumbling, murmuring people" (from Slavic němъ – "mumbling, mute"). The latter word may be the derivation of words to denote German/Germanic people in many later Slavic languages: e.g., Czech Němec, Slovak Nemec, Slovene Nemec, Belarusian, Russian and Bulgarian Немец, Serbian Немац, Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian Nijemac, Polish Niemiec, Ukrainian Німець, etc.,[32] but another theory states that rather these words are derived from the name of the Nemetes tribe, which is derived from the Celtic root nemeto-.

The English word Slav is derived from the Middle English word sclave, which was borrowed from Medieval Latin sclavus "slave," itself a borrowing and Byzantine Greek σκλάβος sklábos "slave," which was in turn apparently derived from a misunderstanding of the Slavic autonym (denoting a speaker of their own languages). The Byzantine term Sklavinoi was loaned into Arabic as Saqaliba by medieval Arab historiographers. However, the origin of this word is disputed.

Alternative proposals for the etymology of Slověninъ propounded by some scholars have much less support. B.P. Lozinski argues that the word slava once had the meaning of worshipper, in this context meaning "practicer of a common Slavic religion," and from that evolved into an ethnonym. S.B. Bernstein speculates that it derives from a reconstructed Proto-Indo-European *(s)lawos, cognate to Ancient Greek λαός laós "population, people," which itself has no commonly accepted etymology. Meanwhile others have pointed out that the suffix -enin indicates a man from a certain place, which in this case should be a place called Slova or Slava, possibly a river name. The Old East Slavic Slavuta for the Dnieper River was argued by Henrich Bartek (1907–1986) to be derived from slova and also the origin of Slovene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

.

Edited by Abramelin

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jvw hâva to râwande - wrong translation 'ports'. hâva means goods, possesions (Dutch: have).

Yes, but I only focused on two words in that sentence: hals and slâvona.

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