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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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For those who can read German:

Altnordisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch - Jan de Vries (2000), 374 pages.

(Old Norse Etymological Dictionary)

http://de.scribd.com/doc/78998246/Altnordisches-Etymologisches-Woerterbuch-Jan-de-Vries-2000-Compressed

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Yes, got it, like a HALter - halter neck shirt - I couldn't think of an English word that kept the hals meaning but halter would be one.

and maybe the Halberd , the spike/axe like weapon which was used by infantry , to aim up under the helmet of cavalry/knights , aiming at the neck. ... only problem it was not made of wool or linen .

Just as an aside , i remember from my sumerian reading ... that one of the most feared deaths for a summerian was to be hanged , they believed that you not only killed the body by hanging , but by the rope around the neck you also imprisoned the soul/spirit , and for some reason it prevented its leaving the body, cant remember the exact details .but the spirit would then either be cremated or be buried in the earth, with the soul still inside.

Edited by NO-ID-EA
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and maybe the Halberd , the spike/axe like weapon which was used by infantry , to aim up under the helmet of cavalry/knights , aiming at the neck. ... only problem it was not made of wool or linen .

There are more problems:

Originally the halberd was nothing but an axe blade on a very long shaft (or "halm").

halberd (n.)

late 15c., from Middle French hallebarde (earlier alabarde, 15c.), from Middle High German halmbarte "broad-axe with handle," from halm "handle" (see helm) + barte "hatchet," possibly from Proto-Germanic *bardoz "beard," also "hatchet, broadax." Alternative etymology [Kluge, Darmesteter] traces first element to helm "helmet," making the weapon an axe for smashing helmets.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=halberd&searchmode=none

A halberd (also called halbard, halbert or Swiss voulge) is a two-handed pole weapon that came to prominent use during the 14th and 15th centuries. The word halberd may come from the German words Halm (staff), and Barte (axe). In modern-day German, the weapon is called a Hellebarde. The halberd consists of an axe blade topped with a spike mounted on a long shaft. It always has a hook or thorn on the back side of the axe blade for grappling mounted combatants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halberd

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i thought Hal = Collar , and B-ard , ard =high , for a weapon to be used/aimed collar-high was pretty good

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i thought Hal = Collar , and B-ard , ard =high , for a weapon to be used/aimed collar-high was pretty good

Sorry NO, but this isn't Scrabble we're playing here: you can't just chop a word up into convenient pieces you have a meaning for..

And even in Dutch the word originally started with HELM instead of HEL ("hellebaard").

http://www.etymologi...oord/hellebaard

.

Edited by Abramelin

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this isn't Scrabble we're playing here: you can't just chop a word up into convenient pieces you have a meaning for..

That is exactly why TONECKA / TUNIC is not derived from the Hebrew or Amamaic version of COTTON / KATOEN.

Neck must be an old word as it has varieties in many languages:

neck - english

nek - dutch

nacken, genick - german

nacke - swedish

nakke - danish, norwegian

nuque - french

hnecca - oldfrisian (Hettema)

nekke - frisian

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So we have a little problem here: Old Frisian for 'slave' is "skalk".

I don't see any problem.

SKALK can mean knegt, slaaf, zoon, vriend (assistant or knight, slave, son, friend), according to Hettema's Oldfrisian dictionary.

Varieties of SKALK are used in OLB too, and its meaning will be closer to friend / assistant than to slave:

THI WAN.WISA FALXA MANNA THAM HJARA SELVA GODIS SKALKA JEFTHA PRESTERA NOMA LÉTA

A.DEL WAS.NE MINLIKA SKALK

THA SIND THÉR VNWARLINGA FJUWER SKALKA MORTH ÀND NAKED UTEKLÁT

THAM HJARA SEL FORI GOD.IS SKALKUM UT JAVON

Related:

THÀT.ER NÉN KVA FORMVDA NAVT RISA NE MÉI NOR SKALKHÉD DÉN NE WRDE

MEN THAT VRSKALKTON VSA WÁKENDOM

THES DÉIS VRSKALKTH.I THÉR

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That is exactly why TONECKA / TUNIC is not derived from the Hebrew or Amamaic version of COTTON / KATOEN.

Neck must be an old word as it has varieties in many languages:

neck - english

nek - dutch

nacken, genick - german

nacke - swedish

nakke - danish, norwegian

nuque - french

hnecca - oldfrisian (Hettema)

nekke - frisian

But that's what you are doing: chopping up a word. TOHNEKKA into To Hnekka.

The LATIN (yes) TUNICA and the OLB TOHNEKKA were both made of wool. That's the second time I say it is connected with/derived from the LATIN 'tunica'.

The Semitic etymology was only a probable one (third time I think).

And the Latin word may have come from Etruscan. If we finally know the Etruscan word, then we can go a step further.

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I don't see any problem.

SKALK can mean knegt, slaaf, zoon, vriend (assistant or knight, slave, son, friend), according to Hettema's Oldfrisian dictionary.

Varieties of SKALK are used in OLB too, and its meaning will be closer to friend / assistant than to slave:

THI WAN.WISA FALXA MANNA THAM HJARA SELVA GODIS SKALKA JEFTHA PRESTERA NOMA LÉTA

A.DEL WAS.NE MINLIKA SKALK

THA SIND THÉR VNWARLINGA FJUWER SKALKA MORTH ÀND NAKED UTEKLÁT

THAM HJARA SEL FORI GOD.IS SKALKUM UT JAVON

Related:

THÀT.ER NÉN KVA FORMVDA NAVT RISA NE MÉI NOR SKALKHÉD DÉN NE WRDE

MEN THAT VRSKALKTON VSA WÁKENDOM

THES DÉIS VRSKALKTH.I THÉR

The problem is this: when did the Slavs get enslaved en masse?

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chopping up a word. TOHNEKKA into To Hnekka.

philo-sophy

bio-logy

demo-cracy

denim = de Nimes

etc.

Chopping a word into pieces to find the original meaning is perfectly normal.

You change the order of the sounds, that is a different thing.

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The problem is this: when did the Slavs get enslaved en masse?

Again I don't see any problem there.

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But that's what you are doing: chopping up a word. TOHNEKKA into To Hnekka.

The LATIN (yes) TUNICA and the OLB TOHNEKKA were both made of wool. That's the second time I say it is connected with/derived from the LATIN 'tunica'.

The Semitic etymology was only a probable one (third time I think).

And the Latin word may have come from Etruscan. If we finally know the Etruscan word, then we can go a step further.

I love syllables. Names especially are made up of smaller words Nyhellenia or a dictionary example to-break below - tohnekka would be a similar form of word imo.

to-bre-k-a

afries., st. V. (4): nhd. zerbrechen, zerreißen, spalten, zerhauen

(V.), verletzen, vernichten, gebrechen, ermangeln; ne. break (V.), tear (V.) apart,

split (V.), hurt (V.), destroy, lack

Edited by The Puzzler

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Again I don't see any problem there.

That's because you focus on words only.

WORD HISTORY The derivation of the word slave encapsulates a bit of European history and explains why the two words slaves and Slavs are so similar; they are, in fact, historically identical. The word slave first appears in English around 1290, spelled sclave. The spelling is based on Old French esclave from Medieval Latin sclavus, “Slav, slave,” first recorded around 800. Sclavus comes from Byzantine Greek sklabos (pronounced sklävōs) “Slav,” which appears around 580. Sklavos approximates the Slavs' own name for themselves, the Slověnci, surviving in English Slovene and Slovenian. The spelling of English slave, closer to its original Slavic form, first appears in English in 1538. Slavs became slaves around the beginning of the ninth century when the Holy Roman Empire tried to stabilize a German-Slav frontier. By the 12th century stabilization had given way to wars of expansion and extermination that did not end until the Poles crushed the Teutonic Knights at Grunwald in 1410.

As far as the Slavs' own self-designation goes, its meaning is, understandably, better than “slave”; it comes from the Indo-European root *kleu–, whose basic meaning is “to hear” and occurs in many derivatives meaning “renown, fame.” The Slavs are thus “the famous people.” Slavic names ending in –slav incorporate the same word, such as Czech Bohu-slav, “God's fame,” Russian Msti-slav, “vengeful fame,” and Polish Stani-slaw, “famous for withstanding (enemies).”

http://www.answers.com/topic/slave

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philo-sophy

bio-logy

demo-cracy

denim = de Nimes

etc.

Chopping a word into pieces to find the original meaning is perfectly normal.

You change the order of the sounds, that is a different thing.

These examples are recent constructions.

Anyway, as you can see from the images I posted earlier, the 'tunica' was not a garment that reached up to the neck persé, and that was especially true for women's tunicas..

And, btw, TUNICA has the same order of consonants as TOHNEKKA. Same with TONACA.

I know - you sure you're not Otharus? - you conveniently continue repeating what I said about a POSSIBLE Semitic etymology, while at the same time forgetting I have said a couple of times we have to look at the Latin TUNICA (and maybe to an Etruscan) word as a source for TOHNEKKA.

Another thing:

Etymology is not only about chopping up words, it's about how words evolved through time based on vowel-shifts and so on, it's a search for the original form of words by discarding changes that have been added throughout time, how their meaning changed.

Merely chopping up words gives you KADIK (KA-DIK, quay-dike) for Cadiz/Kadix/Gades.

Etymology gives you QADESH for Cadiz/Kadix/Gades. You see, it also includes history.

==

Btw, you do know the (older) Greek word for TUNICA, right? It's CHITON.

What you think is against the 'rules' - a change in the order of consonants - is in fact not against the rules.

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=====

It is striking how Ottema and Sandbach have changed this fragment into something more male-dominant.

Now I'd like to ask a native English speaker (Puzzler?) to summarise the meaning of this fragment, in your own words, as I think it explains very well why the enemies of the Fryas would have wanted to destroy the old indigenous written and oral traditions.

Girl Power!

No, seriously I think it's about how the women kept the passing down of these sorts of histories, men go off to war while women pass on stories and tales to the children at home by the fireside and certainly may have been something that emerging dominant cultures would like to make disappear.

In fact, we see this happened in people like Sami, they were basically banned from speaking in their language or keeping any memory of their former existence. This is why much of their true and original culture and oral stories are lost - they say that even when you visit their land, you will find no generational shaman, because they were all made to stop the practice.

Wives tales get passed down. They might slip through the net.

I don't know if the fragments are intentionally male-dominated though, they seem to fit the cultural timeframe of Ottema, meaning I don't see them as odd being in there in the 19th century.

Edited by The Puzzler
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The problem is this: when did the Slavs get enslaved en masse?

i would say in three stages , 1st just the king and his court ,in 597 bc , the 2nd en-masse in 587 bc , and the 3rd in 582 bc

from page 123 of Tresoar .......that is thruch tha Dorra Wostena , that is thruch et land that Irtha upheid uta sea . tha hiu hiv strete after usa ETHELA up heide as hia Inna Rade se kemon..

That is through the land that irtha had heaved up out of the sea , when she had raised up the strait as soon as OUR FOREFATHERS had passed into the Red Sea ..( They seem to think they are jewish ethnicity at this point )

and then Cy-RUS eventually overcame the Babylonians and set them free .

The Jews were the slaves in Slavia , working for the Babylonians is my guess ,

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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These examples are recent constructions.

Anyway, as you can see from the images I posted earlier, the 'tunica' was not a garment that reached up to the neck persé, and that was especially true for women's tunicas..

And, btw, TUNICA has the same order of consonants as TOHNEKKA. Same with TONACA.

I know - you sure you're not Otharus? - you conveniently continue repeating what I said about a POSSIBLE Semitic etymology, while at the same time forgetting I have said a couple of times we have to look at the Latin TUNICA (and maybe to an Etruscan) word as a source for TOHNEKKA.

Another thing:

Etymology is not only about chopping up words, it's about how words evolved through time based on vowel-shifts and so on, it's a search for the original form of words by discarding changes that have been added throughout time, how their meaning changed.

Merely chopping up words gives you KADIK (KA-DIK, quay-dike) for Cadiz/Kadix/Gades.

Etymology gives you QADESH for Cadiz/Kadix/Gades. You see, it also includes history.

==

Btw, you do know the (older) Greek word for TUNICA, right? It's CHITON.

What you think is against the 'rules' - a change in the order of consonants - is in fact not against the rules.

Etymology is based on a root word for sure and added parts, I'm not denying that - I'm going straight for the root word each time - neck is it here. Possibly a mutated variant of *kneug/k

...and the tunic did start at the neck.

The body garment was loose-fitting for males, usually beginning at the neck and ending above the knee. A woman's garment could be either close fitting or loose, beginning at the neck and extending over a skirt or skirts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunic

I said a word before, can't think of it now, in the Frisian dictionary, that meant 'covering' and the word was like tohnekka but the consonants were a bit mixed, you didn't think it could work - do you remember the word I said?

Etymology gives you Gadir - walled stronghold. QadIS in Arabic not QadES.

Not that I don't think Gadir was not a holy sanctuary but the etymology is fairly clear on this name and even I can only stretch things so much - but I'd compromise in saying that, if it is a same form of name, the walled stronghold was also a 'sanctuary'/haven and both meanings are correct.

Edited by The Puzzler

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That's because you focus on words only.

That is not true and you damn well know it.

Your problem is that you believe a word is as old as its oldest saved written record of it.

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Anyway, as you can see from the images I posted earlier, the 'tunica' was not a garment that reached up to the neck persé, and that was especially true for women's tunicas..

That does not mean the word cannot originally have meant to-the-neck.

And, btw, TUNICA has the same order of consonants as TOHNEKKA. Same with TONACA.

That's what I say and why this etymology makes more sense than the Hebrew one.

Btw, you do know the (older) Greek word for TUNICA, right? It's CHITON.

That is a different word (seems to be related to the word cotton as well) with a similar meaning: a piece of clothing.

440px-Doric_Chiton.svg.png

If Tohnekka =>> Tunic was one of a few more-plausible (than the classic ones) etymologies, I would not be impressed, but OLB offers such an overwhelming amount of better etymologies, that they can no longer be ignored or laughed-away.

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I found another source for the word, but also Semitic:

The Latin word tunica, source of the English word tunic, is taken from a Phoenician word of kindred origin.

http://en.wikipedia....hiton_(costume)

ETYMOLOGY:

Middle English tunik, from Old French tunique, from Latin tunica, of Phoenician origin; akin to Hebrew kuttnet, ktnet, from Central Semitic *kuttn, *kittn ; see chiton

http://education.yah...ary/entry/tunic

And these Phoenicians seem to be a credible source: they were traders and sailed far and wide.

,

Edited by Abramelin

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That is a different word (seems to be related to the word cotton as well) with a similar meaning: a piece of clothing.

Apparently you didn't click the links about metathesis:

http://en.wikipedia....s_(linguistics)

http://nl.wikipedia....ese_(taalkunde)

That is not true and you damn well know it.

Your problem is that you believe a word is as old as its oldest saved written record of it.

If you can't provide an older source, I'll stick to the oldest source we know of.

And most if not all of your posts (as "gestur") are about dissecting words, but rarely about ancient history.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Etymology is based on a root word for sure and added parts, I'm not denying that - I'm going straight for the root word each time - neck is it here. Possibly a mutated variant of *kneug/k

...and the tunic did start at the neck.

The body garment was loose-fitting for males, usually beginning at the neck and ending above the knee. A woman's garment could be either close fitting or loose, beginning at the neck and extending over a skirt or skirts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunic

I said a word before, can't think of it now, in the Frisian dictionary, that meant 'covering' and the word was like tohnekka but the consonants were a bit mixed, you didn't think it could work - do you remember the word I said?

Etymology gives you Gadir - walled stronghold. QadIS in Arabic not QadES.

Not that I don't think Gadir was not a holy sanctuary but the etymology is fairly clear on this name and even I can only stretch things so much - but I'd compromise in saying that, if it is a same form of name, the walled stronghold was also a 'sanctuary'/haven and both meanings are correct.

Gadir and Gades have no etymological relationship. Gades is nothing but the way the Romans start calling Gadir after Scipio conquered the city.

And why did the Romans give it the name "Gades"? Most likely because the Phoenicians considered it to be a 'holy city', Qadesh, and used that word in daily use.

-

I can't remember right now what Old Frisian word you used, but the closest Old Frisian word to "Gadir" I found is "gaderia", or 'gathering'. Like I said a while back, it had everything to do with "people/things close together within one area".

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And most if not all of your posts are about dissecting words, but rarely about ancient history.

Many allright, certainly not all and besides seperate words I do whole fragments too.

Remember the Frisia maps?

Here's something else, for the shortsighted paper research team:

Cai Lun [...] (ca. 50 AD – 121) [...], was a Chinese eunuch. He is traditionally regarded as the inventor of paper and the papermaking process, in forms recognizable in modern times as paper (as opposed to Egyptian papyrus). Although paper existed in China before Cai Lun (since the 2nd century BC), he was responsible for the first significant improvement and standardization of paper-making by adding essential new materials into its composition.

Source: wikipedia/Cai_Lun

220px-Cai-lun.jpg

Edited by gestur

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