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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

This is a medieval map based on Ptolemy (1493), the world devided in the area of Japhet, Shem, and Ham:

ptolemaic-world-map-1493-granger.jpg

http://fineartameric...93-granger.html

Light-blue is Frya/Japhet (Europe), red-ish is Lyda/Ham (North Africa), yellow-ish/orange is Finda/Shem (Asia).

And voila: Egypt does indeed belong to the Finda/Shem, like the Middle East, India, and much of Asia.

And yes, I know, Egypt should be in Ham's territory according to the Bible.

An older, and simpler map:

CBA-2079.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Hidde:

Skrêven to Ljuwert. Nêi âtland svnken is ... and so on.

Hidde even calls it "Atland", so nothing "Old Land" or "Our Aldland".

Likko doesn't even mention Aldland/Atland.

According to the OLB the Fryan sailors called it "Atland", and apparently they were the connection between the Fryans and Finda.

Hidde:

Skrêven to Ljuwert. Nêi âtland svnken is ... and so on.

Hidde even calls it "Atland", so nothing "Old Land" or "Our Aldland".

Likko doesn't even mention Aldland/Atland.

According to the OLB the Fryan sailors called it "Atland", and apparently they were the connection between the Fryans and Finda.

I cannot understand Atland differently from Aldland (Oudland). Through the whole book you find x year since Aldland has been sunken, referring to the former history of the Frisians. The reason, that the sailors speak about Atland is, that they use to shorten words (as has been explained in the OLB). In fact you find here the dialect of the Zuidwesthoek, where ald his shortened to at like in Dutch old > oud.

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The people Columbus met called their island (which wasn't an island) "Paria" :

ORIGINAL NARRATIVES OF EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY

THE NORTHMEN, COLUMBUS AND CABOT

985-1503

“No lands in the world can be more green and beautiful or more populated; moreover the temperature since I have been in this island,” says he, “is, I say, cool enough each morning for a lined gown, although it is so near the equinoctial line; the sea is however fresh. They called the island Paria.” All are the words of the Admiral. He called the mainland an island, however, because so he believed it to be.

http://www.gutenberg...1-h/18571-h.htm

The Admiral says that he was astonished at the bad weather he encountered in the region of these islands. In the Indies he had navigated throughout the winter without the necessity for anchoring, and always had fine weather, never having seen the sea for a single hour in such a state that it could not be navigated easily. But among these islands he had suffered from such terrible storms. The same had happened in going out as far as the Canary Islands, but as soon as they were passed there was always fine weather, both in sea and air. In concluding these remarks, he observes that the sacred theologians and wise men [248-1] said well when they placed the terrestrial paradise in the Far East, because it is a most temperate region. Hence these lands that he had now discovered must, he says, be in the extreme East.

[248-1 That the site of the Garden of Eden was to be found in the Orient was a common belief in the Middle Ages and later. Cf. the Book of Sir John Mandeville, ch. XXX.]

http://www.gutenberg...1-h/18571-h.htm

-

Returning to the journey, Friday, August 17, he went 37 leagues, the sea being smooth, “to God our Lord,” he says, “may infinite thanks be given.” He says that not finding islands now, assures him that that land from whence he came is a vast mainland, or where the Earthly Paradise is, “be[365]cause all say that it is at the end of the east, and this is the Earthly Paradise,”365-1 says he.

[365-1 Cf. the letter on the Third Voyage, Major, Select Letters of Columbus, p. 140, for Columbus’s reasoning and beliefs about the Earthly Paradise or Garden of Eden; for Las Casas’s discussion of the question, see Historia de las Indias, II. 275-306.]

http://www.gutenberg...1-h/18571-h.htm

+++

I assume that you made a typo when you wrote "Gardeg"? Should be "Garden", right?

Just checked , was a typo but not garden , was gardar

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I cannot understand Atland differently from Aldland (Oudland). Through the whole book you find x year since Aldland has been sunken, referring to the former history of the Frisians. The reason, that the sailors speak about Atland is, that they use to shorten words (as has been explained in the OLB). In fact you find here the dialect of the Zuidwesthoek, where ald his shortened to at like in Dutch old > oud.

Ald-land - Old Land, yes, but not the Old Land of the Fryans; it was the former homeland of the Finda. You say the homeland of the Finda was somewhere in the province of Groningen??

-

I know how the sailors pronounced 'oud' ; that is the way how I (born in The Hague) pronounced it for a long time, lol: 'aht'.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Good job in finding all that again.

How interesting really. I think that amber may have been so prized for a reason like this. Minoans visited the British Isles, a pretty sweeping statement. I'd believe it, if the Phoenicians had made it Gades, what would stop them going up the Atlantic coast further?

Minoans are harder to believe but if Minoan artifacts have been found there, it's likely there was at least trade at that time. The mythology of Helios is imo at least one God bought from Scandinavia into Greece.

The English word 'tin' is Germanic; related words are found in the other Germanic languages—German Zinn, Swedish tenn, Dutch tin, etc.—but not in other branches of Indo-European except by borrowing (e.g. Irish tinne). Its origin is unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin

We know Mycenaean amber is Baltic too.

------------------------------------------------

Wouldn't you think Atland would still be submerged, or has it risen, or dried out? I'm wondering where this submerged land is in the middle of Asia that sailors could sail to.

An interesting site about the word (and use of) tin:

http://www.vanderkrogt.net/elements/element.php?sym=Sn

=

You know I think the OLB is a fabrication, so Aldland could be anywhere.

If it had claimed to be about a many thousands of years older history, I'd say that Aldland was Sundaland, or the present Indonesian Archipelago. But even so, that continent didn't sank catastrophically..

No, I think the OLB suggested an idea running around in the 19th century, and that is that Eden was located on the Pamir plateau, that it got flooded around 2345 BCE (2194BCE according to Frisian Bible scholars), and that much later it dried up again.

Sailors could sail the seas and then also sail up the Indus river, you know?

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This is a medieval map based on Ptolemy (1493), the world devided in the area of Japhet, Shem, and Ham:

ptolemaic-world-map-1493-granger.jpg

http://fineartameric...93-granger.html

Light-blue is Frya/Japhet (Europe), red-ish is Lyda/Ham (North Africa), yellow-ish/orange is Finda/Shem (Asia).

And voila: Egypt does indeed belong to the Finda/Shem, like the Middle East, India, and much of Asia.

And yes, I know, Egypt should be in Ham's territory according to the Bible.

An older, and simpler map:

CBA-2079.jpg

.

find us an old myth where shem gave Khem / Misere as a Gift (E-Gypt ) to either Jafeth or Cham .or maybe ham gave it to shem , after their lands flooded maybe ?

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The important thing is that the Egyptians were considered to be part of the Finda people, just like the Asians.

The OLB used a simplistic way of dividing humanity into 3 'races', and that way of dividing humanity is a medieval thing.

Simplistic, yes. Just look at the Mongols of Mongolia, or the Indians of India, or the Semites, or the Egyptians: according to the OLB they were all children of Finda.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Unrelated but I saw it and liked it and thought I'd share it for those who hadn't seen it.

A map of the North Friesland area in 1651 comparable to 1240. All that area would have been there in OLB times. Just found it very interesting. Maybe LUMKA MAKIA was there.

http://www.geheugenv...NESA01:L01-0480

Same area the apparent finds connected to Bronze Age Crete mentioned on the BritAm site.

Thanks for the two maps Puz , had not seen them before , lots of changes in the land under water , was trying to read the index for the red buildings on the map , the 1st looks like it says the biggest are Oppida , ( iron age settlements a couple of them disappeared , i think the next is temples , but cant read the rest .

a place called Lunden in dithmarsia , and a large plot called Loen herde just under the chersonesi , that would be a turn up if Richard 1 , was Richard the Loen Herde rather than Lion Hirte , ..new name Richard 1 , new house maybe .

In the Olaus Magnus map of (1539) i found Finningia Olim Regnum in one place , and on the island called Gotland , the Empori V Olim ( Emporium or market i presume )..........The Olim are something to do with the Jewish Diaspora , i think i remember , will need to look that up .

Olim made me think of Olympus , Olympia , and Olympics , they were in Gotland (owned by Scotland ) according to Layamon , then you start thinking Olim-picts.

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Thanks for the two maps Puz , had not seen them before , lots of changes in the land under water , was trying to read the index for the red buildings on the map , the 1st looks like it says the biggest are Oppida , ( iron age settlements a couple of them disappeared , i think the next is temples , but cant read the rest .

a place called Lunden in dithmarsia , and a large plot called Loen herde just under the chersonesi , that would be a turn up if Richard 1 , was Richard the Loen Herde rather than Lion Hirte , ..new name Richard 1 , new house maybe .

In the Olaus Magnus map of (1539) i found Finningia Olim Regnum in one place , and on the island called Gotland , the Empori V Olim ( Emporium or market i presume )..........The Olim are something to do with the Jewish Diaspora , i think i remember , will need to look that up .

Olim made me think of Olympus , Olympia , and Olympics , they were in Gotland (owned by Scotland ) according to Layamon , then you start thinking Olim-picts.

This is a link to the same map, but lots larger:

http://kaarten.abc.u...rt-1662-dui.jpg

post-18246-0-92529000-1366788415_thumb.j

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Death - to die - to kill

related words and spelling variety in 86 OLB-fragments

slag.jpg

death (noun)

dood - dutch

tot - german

mort - french

DÁD [5,44,45,54,61,63,69]

dead (adjective)

dood - dutch

tot - german

mort - french

DÁD [35,51]

in combinations:

(they) SLOGON DÁD - slayed dead [7]

DÁD SÉGZA - to 'say' (declare) dead [25]

to kill (verb)

doden - dutch

töten - german

tuer - french

DÉJA [11,13,14,19,55,64]

TO DÉJANDE [2,6]

DÉJANDE - killing [23] (adjective)

(she) DÁDE - killed [3,6]

(they) HÉDE DÁD - had killed [65]

- - -

to die (verb)

sterven - dutch

sterben - german

mourir - french

STERVA [20,37,39,52]

STÀRVA [81]

(she,he) STURF - died [4,9,72]

(he) STURV - ,, [62]

(they) STURVON - died [60]

(he,she) IS/WAS STURVEN - has died [17,32,33,48,58,71,73,82]

(he) IS VRSTURVEN - ,, [44]

(she) WÉRE STÀRVANDE - was dying [27]

het besterven: to die of something

(she) BISTVRV.ET [51] - died (of) it

noun: someone who has died, a departed

VRSTURVEN (-E) [57]

- - -

to murder (verb)

vermoorden - dutch

ermorden - german

assassiner - french

MORDA [77]

VRMORDE [8]

MORTHJA [34]

(they) WRDON MORTH - were murdered [51]

(he) WÀRHT VRMORTH - was ,, [51]

(they) SIND MORTH - are ,, [76]

murder (noun)

moord - dutch

mord - german

MORD: murder [24]

MORT: ,, [38]

MORTH: ,, [85]

MORTH.DEDUN: murderdeeds [18]

MORT.SJOCHTICH: 'murderseeking' (bloodthirsty) [21]

- - -

killer, murderer

BÁNA [31]

BONAR - plur. [77,79]

- - -

slayn, killed

verslagen - dutch

VRSLÉJEN [44]

VRSLÉJANA - adj.plur. [67]

- - -

Euphemisms

to fall (die)

vallen - dutch

FALLA [66]

(she,he) IS/WAS FALLEN - has fallen [9,16,22,36,43,59,70,74,75,78,84]

(she) FALTH - falls [12]

to fell (kill)

vellen - dutch

FÀLLA [15]

(he) FELTH - fells [26]

(he) HETH FÀLAD - has felled [50]

(he) HÉDE FELAD - had felled [41]

(he) HÉDE FÀLETH - ,, [46]

(they) WRDON FÀLATH - were felled [47]

(they) WÉRON FELTH - ,, [86]

(he) WAS FELT - was felled [42]

HÀST FÀLAD - have you felled? [49]

bezwijken - dutch

to collapse (die)

SWIKA [10,38,68]

BISWIKE [80]

(they) SEND SWIKT - have died [58]

verdoen - dutch

to kill ('overdo')

(she/they) WAS/WRDON VRDÉN - was/were killed [28,40]

(he) HÉDE VRDÉN - had killed [56]

(we,they) VRDVA - kill [30]

ombrengen - dutch

to kill ('bring around')

OMBRENSA [53]

(she) WAS VMBROCHT - was killed [1]

(they) WRDON OMBROCHT - were killed [29]

(he) WARTH OM BROCHT - was killed [83]

- - -

Fragments

OLB page/ line: [xxx/yy]

Ottema/ Sandbach page: O-S p.xxx

1 [001/01]

THRITTICH JÉR ÀFTERE DÉI

THAT THJU FOLKSMODER VMBROCHT WAS

[O-S p.5]

Dertig jaren na den dag,

waarop de volksmoeder omgebracht was

Thirty years after the day

on which the Yolksmoeder was murdered

2 [002/06]

AN STÉD FON HJARA FENSENUM TO DÉJANDE

JEFTHA FRY TO LÉTANE

[O-S p.7]

in plaats van hunne gevangenen te dooden

of vrij te laten

instead of killing their prisoners,

or letting them go free

3 [007/17]

VMBE THA TÉDRA TO HELPÁNE.

DÁDE HJU THA STORA

[O-S p.15]

om de zwakken te helpen,

doodde zij de sterken

To help the weak

she would kill [killed] the strong

4 [007/22]

VPPET ENDE STURF HJA FON HIRTSÉR

VMBE THA BÀRN RA KWÁD

[O-S p.15]

ten laatste stierf zij van hartseer

over de boosheid harer kinderen

at last she died heart-broken [:of heartpain]

by the wickedness of her children

5 [007/25]

HJA TICHTEGADON EKKORUM

FON MÀM RA DÁD

[O-S p.15]

Zij betichteden elkander

van hunne moeders dood

They accused each other

of their mother's death

6 [007/32]

HWÉR LYDA ANNEN LAVWA MACHT TO DÉJANDE

THÉR DÁDE HJA . WEL TJÀN

[O-S p.15]

waar Lyda een leeuw doodde,

doodde zij wel tien

where Lyda killed one lion

she killed ten

7 [008/21]

EKKORUM SLOGON HJA VMB.ET MÀSTER.SKIP DÁD

[O-S p.15]

elkander sloegen zij om het meesterschap dood

they slew each other for the mastery [:mastership]

8 [008/27]

SACH HJU HJRA BÀRN EN FRYA.S VRMORDE

SÁ SWOL HJRA BOSM FON NOCHT

[O-S p.15]

zag zij hare kinderen een Fries vermoorden,

dan zwol haar boezem van genoegen

if she saw her children kill a Frisian,

her bosom swelled with pleasure

9 [008/31]

HJU STURF ANDA BLOM.TID FON HJRA LÉVA.

ÀND.T IS JETA TJVESTER HO HJU FALLEN IS

[O-S p.17]

Zij stierf in den bloeitijd van haar leven,

en het is nog duister hoe zij gevallen is.

She died in the bloom of her age [:life],

and the mode of her death [:how she is fallen] is [yet] unknown.

10 [011/23]

THA MODELÁSA SKILUN ÀMMAR SWIKA

VNDER HJARA AJN LÉD

[O-S p.19]

De moedeloozen zullen immer bezwijken

onder hun eigen leed.

those who give way to discouragement sink [:the despirited will always collapse]

under their burdens [own sorrow]

11 [013/03]

ALDULKERA GÀRS SKOLDE JVW DJAROSTA KVIK DÉJA

[O-S p.21]

zoodanig gras zoude uw kostelijkste vee dooden

It [such grass] would poison your [dearest] cattle

12 [015/12]

SAHWERSA HJU FALTH ÉR HJU.T DÉN HETH

[O-S p.25]

bijaldien zij sterft voor dat zij het gedaan heeft

should she die without having done so

[:if she falls before she has done it]

13 [018/19]

SÁ MOT MÀN HJA DÉJA

[O-S p.29]

dan moet men haar dooden

she must be killed [:so must one kill her]

14 [018/30]

SÁ MÉI MÀN HJA SKILDICH HALDA.

THA NAVT NI DÉJA

[O-S p.29]

dan mag men haar voor schuldig houden,

maar niet dooden

she must be considered [:so may one hold her] guilty,

but may not be put to death [:but not kill her]

15 [020/09]

THA BÁMA THÉRA NE MÉI NIMMAN NAVT FÀLLA

[O-S p.31]

Doch de boomen daarin zal niemand vellen

No one shall fell [the] trees [there]

16 [022/25]

IS THI KÉNING THRUCH THENE FYAND FALLEN

[O-S p.35]

Is de koning door den vijand verslagen [:gevallen]

If the king is killed by [:has the king fallen through] the enemy

17 [022/28]

IS.ER VPPA SIN TID OFGVNGEN

JEFTHA BINNA SIN TID STURVEN

[O-S p.35]

Is hij op zijn tijd afgetreden

of binnen zijn tijd gestorven

If he dies a natural death,

or if his period of service has expired

[:has he left in his time

or died within his time]

18 [026/22]

SA HWERSA THÉR ÉNMAN IS. THÉR.MÉTA ÀRG

THAT HI [...] MORTH.DEDUN DVAT

[O-S p.39]

wanneer daar een man is dermate boos,

dat hij [...] doodslagen pleegt

If any one should be so wicked

as to commit [...] murder [:that he does murder-deeds]

19 [026/27]

THÀT MÀN THENE DÉDER FATA

ÀND AN HJARA ÀJNWARDA DÉJA

[O-S p.41]

dat men den dader vatte

en in hunne tegenwoordigheid doode

the culprit shall be put to death

in the presence of the offended

[:that one catches the deeder

and kill (him) in their presence]

20 [029/17]

NÉI AL SIN WITHER.FÁRA

HETH HI THÀT LUK NOTEN

VMBE TO LINDA.HÉM TO STERVA

[O-S p.43]

na al zijne omzwervingen

heeft hij het geluk genoten

om te Lindahem te sterven

after all his wanderings

he had the happiness [:has enjoyed the luck]

to die at Lindahem

21 [031/17]

GÍRICH. HÁCH.FÁRANDE. FALSK.

VNKUS ÀND MORT.SJOCHTICH

[O-S p.47]

hebzuchtig, hovaardig [gierig, hoogvarend], valsch,

onkuisch en moordzuchtig

rapacious, haughty, false,

immoral, and bloodthirsty

22 [038/30]

THA NY.HELLÉNJA FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.57]

Toen Nyhellenia gestorven [:gevallen] was

When Nyhellenia died [:had fallen]

23 [040/09]

SWÉTE WINA MITH DÉJANDE FENIN

[O-S p.59]

zoete wijnen met doodend vergif

sweet wine with deadly [:killing] poison

24 [040/31]

THANA SEND HJARA STÁTA

IMMERTHE FVL TISPALT ÀND MORD

[O-S p.59]

dientengevolge zijn hunne staten

immer vol tweespalt en moord

therefore their states are

full of disputes and murder

25 [041/22]

SA MOT MÀN HIN DÁD SÉGZA

[O-S p.61]

dan moet men hem dood verklaren

he must be declared dead

26 [042/23]

THAT.I EN FRYA.S FELTH

[O-S p.61]

dat hij een Fries dood slaat [:velt]

as to kill a Frisian [:that he fells a Fryas]

27 [049/19]

TO MIDDEN THISRE STILNISE

FÀNG JRTHA AN TO BÉVANDE

LIK AS HJU STÀRVANDE WÉRE

[O-S p.71]

Te midden van deze stilte

begon de aarde te beven,

alsof zij stervende was.

In the midst of this stillness

the earth began to tremble

as if she was dying.

28 [052/26]

THÉR NAVT FLÍA MACHTON WRDON VRDÉN

[O-S p.75]

Die niet vlieden konden, werden gedood.

All who could not flee away were killed.

29 [054/07]

THÁ THENE MÁGÍ FORNOM

HO SIN LJVD AL OMBROCHT WRDON

[O-S p.77]

Toen de Magy vernam,

hoe zijne manschappen overal omgebragt werden

When the Magy heard

how his forces had been utterly defeated [:were all killed]

30 [054/17]

SÁ HWERSA WI EKKORUM TO THA HÀLTE VRDVA

SÁ SKILUN THA WILDA SKET HÀRDAR KÉMON

ÀND VS ALGÁDUR VRDVA

[O-S p.77]

bijaldien wij elkander voor de helft vermoorden,

dan zullen de wilde schaapherders komen

en ons allen vermoorden

if we kill half our numbers in fighting with each other,

then the wild shepherds will come

and kill all the rest

31 [063/11]

THRVCH SIN VNTOCHT ÀND HÁCH.FÁRENHÉD.

IS ER VAKEN THENE BÁNA SINRA NÉISTA SIBBA WRDEN

[O-S p.89]

door zijn ontucht en zijne hoovaardigheid

is hij vaak de moordenaar zijner naaste bloedverwanten geworden

in his lewdness and his pride

is only fit to murder [has he often become the murderer of] his nearest relations

32 [064/28]

MEN MIN.ERVA HETH AL.ET FOLK BIHEXNATH.

JES BIHEXNATH FRJUNDA.

IVIN AS AL VS FJA THÀT LÀSTEN STURVEN IS.

[O-S p.91]

Maar Minerva heeft al het volk behekst,

ja behekst, vrienden,

even als al ons vee, dat laatst gestorven is.

but Min-erva has bewitched all the people

— yes, bewitched, my friends —

as well as all our cattle that died lately

33 [072/07]

THÁ. HEL.LÉNJA JEFTA MINERVA STURVEN WAS

[O-S p.101]

Toen Hellenia of Minerva gestorven was

When Hellenia or Min-erva [had] died

34 [073/28]

SÉKROPS THAM NAVT NE HILDE NI

FON MORTHJA NOR FON HOMMELJA

[O-S p.103]

Cecrops die niet hield

van moorden noch van verwoesten

Cecrops, who had no inclination

towards murder or devastation

35 [074/29]

VMBER DÁD JEFTA LÉVAND TO FÁTANE

[O-S p.105]

om hen dood of levend te vatten

to catch them, dead or alive

36 [077/12]

MEN ASER FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.107]

Maar toen hij gestorven [:gevallen] was

[but] When he died [:had fallen]

37 [083/11]

OWERS SKOLDER VNDER FÉLO WÉJA STERVA LÉTA

[O-S p.115]

anders zoude hij haar onder vele smarten laten sterven

or he would let her die a painful death [under many pains]

38 [083/30]

THI ALLE SKILUM THRVCH MORT SWIKA

[O-S p.115]

Die allen zullen door moord bezwijken

They shall all fall by murder

39 [084/19]

TO THA LESTA SKIL THÀT FENINIGE KWIK THÉR VP ÁSA

ÀND THÉROF STERVA

[O-S p.117]

Ten laatste zal het vergiftige gedierte daarop azen

en daarvan sterven.

At last the poisoned animals shall eat it,

and die of it.

40 [085/13]

NÉI THAT THA MODER VRDÉN WAS

[O-S p.117]

Nadat de Moeder vermoord was

After the murder of the mother [was killed]

41 [086/10]

THENE DÉNEMARKER THÉR THENE FIN FELAD HÉDE

[O-S p.119]

de Denemarker, die den Fin geveld had

the Dane who had cleft the head of [felled] the Finn

42 [087/24]

NÉI THÀT NE MÁGÍ FELT WAS

[O-S p.123]

Nadat de Magy verslagen [:geveld] was

After the Magy was killed [:skinned]

43 [088/18]

LJUD.GÉRT THAM KÉNING THÉR HÉMESDÉGA FALLEN IS

[O-S p.123]

Liudgert de koning die onlangs gestorven [:gevallen] is

Liudgert, the king who had lately died [:fallen]

44 [090/01]

TWÍJA THRITICH DÉGA NÉI MÀM HIRA DÁD

HETH MÀN ADEL.BROST MIN BROTHER VRSLÉJEN FONDEN VPPA WÀRF.

SIN HAWED SPLIT ÀND SINA LITHNE UT.ÉN HRÉTEN.

MIN TÁT THÉR SIAK LÉIDE IS FON SKRIK VRSTURVEN.

[O-S p.125]

Tweeëndertig dagen na moeders dood,

heeft men Adelbrost mijn broeder verslagen gevonden op de werf,

zijn hoofd gespleten, en zijne leden uiteengereten.

Mijn vader, die ziek lag, is van schrik gestorven.

Two-and-thirty days after my mother's death

my brother Adelbrost was found murdered [:slayn] on the wharf,

his skull fractured and his limbs torn asunder.

My father, who lay ill, died of fright.

45 [090/15]

ÀFTER MÀM ÀND BROTHERIS DÁD

[O-S p.127]

Na den dood van mijne moeder en mijn broeder

After the death of my mother and my brother

46 [092/30]

KIRT ÀFTER HÉDE ANNEN VSERA BODNE SIN MAKKER FÀLETH

[O-S p.129]

Kort daarop had een van onze boden zijn makker geveld.

Shortly afterwards one of our messengers killed [:felled] his comrade.

47 [095/15]

THA RÁWAR WRDON FÀLATH ÀND FENSEN

[O-S p.133]

De roovers werden geveld en gevangen.

the pirates [robbers] were made prisoners [felled and caught]

48 [095/17]

IN FENIN WAS SIN PINT DIPTH

ÀND THÉROF IS HJU STURVEN

[O-S p.133]

De pijlspits [:punt] was in vergif [:venijn] gedoopt

en daaraan stierf zij.

... poisoned it [in poison the tip was dipped],

and she died of it

49 [112/09]

HÀST NACH NÉNE FÀLAD

[O-S p.153]

hebt gij er nog geen geveld?

Have you ever killed any of them? [:you haven't felled one yet?]

50 [112/20]

EN DIAR THÀT ER FÀLAD HETH

[O-S p.153]

een dier, dat hij geveld heeft

some animal that he has killed

51[114/30]

INNA GLUPPA WRDON THA FRODA MÀNNISKA MORTH.

THET ALDE FÁMK [...] WÀRTH DÁD FVNDEN IN.EN GRUPE.

MIN TÁT [...]

NACHTIS WÀRHT.ER IN SIN HUS VRMORTH.

[...] MIN MÀM BISTVRV.ET

[O-S p.159]

In ’t geheim werden de brave menschen vermoord.

Het oude vrouwtje [...] werd dood gevonden in een gruppel.

Mijn vader [...]

Bij nacht werd hij in zijn huis vermoord.

[...] Mijne moeder bestierf het.

[the] good people were secretly murdered.

The little old woman [...] was found dead in a ditch.

My father [...]

He was murdered in the night in his own house.

[...] My mother died of it.

52 [121/10]

THA ORA SKOLDE RÉDER STERVA WILLA

[O-S p.167]

de anderen zouden liever willen sterven

the others would sooner [rather want to] die

53 [122/19]

HI WILDE THA SALT.ATHA THRVCH SIN AJN FOLK OMBRENSA LÉTA

[O-S p.167]

hij wilde de soldaten door zijn eigen volk laten ombrengen

[he] wished his own people to kill the soldiers

[:he wished to let the soldiers be killed through his own folk]

54 [124/22]

AFTER SIN DÁD

[O-S p.171]

Na zijn dood

After his death

55 [126/31]

MIN JOI WIL MI DÉJA

[O-S p.173]

mijn man [:lief] wil mij dooden

my husband [:joy] will kill me

56 [131/08]

THENE MÁGÍ FLUCHTE HINNE.

MÀN FAND SIN LIK.

HI HÉDE SIN SELF VRDÉN.

[O-S p.179]

De Magy vluchtte weg,

men vond zijn lijk,

hij had zich zelf omgebracht

The Magy fled,

and [one found] his corpse was found

where he had killed himself.

57 [132/21]

HWERSA IMMAN EN BYLD MÁKATH ÀFTER ÉNNEN VRSTURVEN

ÀND THET LIKT SÁ LÁWATH HJA

THÀT THENE GÁST THES VRSTURVENE THÉR INNE FÁRATH

[O-S p.181]

Wanneer iemand een beeld maakt naar een afgestorvene

en het gelijkt, dan gelooven zij,

dat de geest des overledene daarin vaart.

When they make a statue of a dead person

[and it resembles,] they believe

that the spirit [:ghost] of the departed enters into it

58 [133/18]

SONT 100 ÁND 8 JÉR IS HI THENE ÉROSTE FON SIN FOLK

THÉR FRÉDSUM STURVEN IS.

ALLE OTHERA SEND VNDERA SLÉGA SWIKT

[O-S p.181]

Sints honderd en acht jaren is hij de eerste van zijn geslacht,

die vreedzaam gestorven is;

alle anderen zijn onder de slagen bezweken

Since 108 years he is the first of his race [:folk]

who died a peaceable death [peacefully];

all the others died by violence [:under slays]

59 [134/12]

THA GOSA.MAKONTA FALLEN IS

[O-S p.183]

toen Gosa-Makonta gestorven is [:gevallen was]

When Gosa Makonta [had] died [: fallen]

60 [135/05]

VNDER THESSE ARBÉD

WRDON HJA GRÉV ÀND STRÀM ÉR HJA JÉRICH WÉRON

ÀND STURVON SVNDER NOCHTA

[O-S p.183]

Onder dezen arbeid

werden zij grijs en stram eer zij oud [:volwassen?] waren

en stierven zonder genot

Under this treatment [work, slavery]

they grew gray and old before their time [:before they were 'yeary'],

and died without any enjoyment

61 [137/07]

TO THER DÁD SEND HJA FRJUNDA BILÉWEN

[O-S p.187]

tot den dood toe zijn zij vrienden gebleven

they remained friends till death

62 [138/20]

THÁ JES.VS ALSA TWILIF JÉR OMFÁREN HÉDE STURV ER

[O-S p.189]

Toen Jessos [:Jes-us, 'Ja-ons'] zoo twaalf jaren rondgereisd had, stierf hij

When Jessos [:Yes-us] had thus travelled for twelve years he died

63 [138/30]

GVNGON THA FALXA PRESTERA NÉI.T LÁND SINRA BERTA

SIN DÁD AVBÉRA

[O-S p.189]

gingen de valsche priesters naar het land zijner geboorte,

om zijn dood bekend te maken

the false priests went to the land of his birth

to make his death known

64 [139/25]

SÁ LÉRDON HJA

THÀT MÀN ALLE SINA TOCHTA DÉJA MOSTE

[O-S p.189]

zoo leerden zij

dat men alle zijne hartstochten [:tochten, gedachten] dooden moest

they taught

that men should stifle [:kill] their passions

65 [140/01]

VMB FORTH TO BIWISANA

THÀT HIA AL HJARA TOCHTA DÁD HÉDE

NAMON HJA NÉNE WIWA

[O-S p.189]

om voorts te bewijzen,

dat zij al hunne zinnelijke lusten gedood hadden,

namen zij geene vrouwen

[to furthermore prove]

that they had overcome [:killed] all sensual feelings [:lusts],

they took no wives

66 [141/29]

SAHWERSA IK FALLA MACHTE

ÉR IK FOLGSTER NOMATH HÉDE

[O-S p.193]

zoo ik sterven [:vallen] mocht,

eer ik eene opvolgster benoemd heb

if I [would] die [:fall]

before I have named a successor

67 [142/11]

SÁ FÉLO LÉD SKIL HJU BRODA.

THÀT JRTHA.T BLOD ALGÁDVR NAVT DRINKA NE KÀN.

FON HJRA VRSLÉJANA BERNUM.

[O-S p.193]

Zoo veel leed zal hij broeden,

dat Irtha [al] het bloed niet zal kunnen drinken

van hare verslagene kinderen.

It will breed so much mischief [:suffering]

that Irtha will not be able to drink [all] the blood

of her slain children.

68 [142/19]

RJUCHT ÀND FRYHÉD SKILUN SWIKA

ÀND WI MITH THAM

[O-S p.193]

Vrijheid en recht zullen bezwijken

en wij met haar.

Freedom and justice shall be overcome [:justice and freedom will collapse],

and we with them.

69 [143/07]

ÀFTER TÁT.HIS DÁD

BEN IK TO SINA FOLGAR KÉREN

[O-S p.195]

Na mijn vaders dood

ben ik tot zijn opvolger gekozen.

After my father's death

I was chosen as his successor.

70 [145/05]

THÁ GOSA FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.197]

Toen Gosa gestorven [:gevallen] was

When Gosa [had] died [:fallen]

71 [150/17]

WILHEM IS KIRT AFTER STURVEN

[O-S p.203]

Wilhem is kort daarna gestorven

Wilhem died shortly afterwards

72 [153/32]

THA FRISO BI FJUWERTICH JÉR

ET STÁVEREN HUSHALDEN HÉDE STURF.ER

[O-S p.209]

Toen Friso bij de veertig jaren

te Staveren had huis gehouden, stierf hij.

When Friso had been [:'held house']

nearly forty years at Staveren he died.

73 [154/16]

THÀT.ER STURVEN IS

SVNDER THÀT ER KÀNING WÉRE

[O-S p.209]

dat hij gestorven is

zonder dat hij koning was

that he died

without becoming king

74 [155/08]

AS SIN TÁT FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.209]

toen zijn vader gestorven was

when his father [had] died [:fallen]

75 [155/21]

MEN ALSA RING SIN TÁT FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.211]

zoodra zijn vader gestorven was

but as soon as he [:his dad] was dead [:had fallen]

76 [156/27]

THA SIND THÉR VNWARLINGA FJUWER SKALKA MORTH

ÀND NAKED UTEKLÁT

[O-S p.211]

zijn er onverhoeds vier knechten vermoord

en naakt uitgekleed

four of their servants were suddenly murdered

and stripped [naked]

77 [156/32]

THA BONAR THÉR THÀT DÉN HÉDE WÉRON TWISK.LÁNDAR

THÉR JUDDÉGA DRIST WÉI OVIRA HRÉNA KVMA

TO MORDA ÀND TO RÁWANDE.

[O-S p.211]

De moordenaars die dat gedaan hadden, waren Twisklanders,

die heden ten dage stoutweg over den Rijn komen

te moorden en te rooven.

The murderers that had committed [done] this crime were Twisklanders,

who had at that time audaciously crossed [:come over] the Rhine

to murder and to steal.

78 [158/08]

ALSA RINGEN FRISO FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.215]

zoodra Friso gestorven was

as soon as Friso was dead [:had fallen]

79 [165/11]

THISA MINSKA SIND WÉRENTLIK ÍRA BONAR

[O-S p.223]

Deze menschen zijn wezenlijk wilde moordenaren

These people are really savage murderers

80 [165/22]

THET MACH NIT VRLETTA

THAT THÉR BIHWILA THUSANDA BY THUSANDA

THRVCH HONGER BISWIKE

[O-S p.223]

dit kan niet beletten

dat daar bijwijlen duizenden bij duizenden

van honger bezwijken

this does not prevent

the people from dying [that there at times thousands by thousands

collapse] of hunger

81 [166/25]

IS MON THÉR FON BYTEN.

SÁ MOT MON STÀRVA

[O-S p.225]

Is men daardoor gebeten

zoo moet men sterven

Any one who is [one] bitten by them

is sure to [so must one] die

82 [168/21]

KONE.RÉD MIN ÉM IS NIMMER BOSTIGJATH

ÀND ALSA BERNLÁS STURVEN

[O-S p.227]

Konereed mijn oom is nooit getrouwd geweest

en alzoo kinderloos gestorven.

[Koneréd,] My uncle, not having [:has never] married,

left no children [:and thus died childless].

83 [191/11]

THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE

WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN

[O-S p.231]

degene die daar niet voor buigen wilde,

werd omgebracht of in ketenen gedaan.

those who would not bow down to them

were either killed or put in chains

84 [195/18]

THÁ SIN TÁT FALLEN WAS

[O-S p.235]

Toen zijn vader gestorven was

When his father [had] died [:fallen]

85 [200/30]

ALSA WAS THRVCH THA FÍANSKIP

THÉRA FÁMNA ÀND THÉRA GOLUM.

FAITHE ÀND TWIST IN OVIR THÀT BERCH.LAND KVMEN

MITH MORTH ÀND BROND.

[O-S p.241]

Alzoo was door de vijandschap

der Maagden en der Golen

veete en twist over het Bergland gekomen

met moord en brand.

Thus through the enmity

of the maidens and the Gaul's,

hatred and quarrelling spread ever the mountain country

with lire and sword [:murder and fire].

86 [207/30]

WÉRON SEX THRVCH BUK.PIN FELTH

[O-S p.249]

werden zes door buikpijn gedood [:geveld]

six died of colic [:were killed by bellypain]

~

just a thought...

STER-VA = to go to a star?

(French: il va = he goes)

OLB p.9: SJAN DAL FON THINRE WAKSTAR AND WÉN

OLB p.10: THA HJA NÉI MODER OM.SAGON WAS HJU AL.LANG VPRIRA WAKSTAR

Edited by gestur
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Just to add:

VRSTURVEN (-E) [57]

DU: verb: versterven, past participle: verstorven

This is what it means nowadays:

http://nl.wikipedia....sterving_(dood)

http://en.wikipedia....nal_dehydration

http://www.etymologi...oord/versterven

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...VMNW&id=ID48903

.

Edited by Abramelin

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In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith.

In earlier times most of Finda's people lived together in her Mother's land of birth, by name/in particular Ald-land that now lies under the sea.

=

Anda ôre side wrden wi thrvch thaet brêde Twisklând vmtunad, hwêr thrvch thaet Findas folk navt kvma ne thvradon, fon ovira tichta walda aend ovir it wilde kwik.

On the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild animals.

Mind you: this was in the time BEFORE Aldland sank. So Finda lived east of Twiskland/Germany.

=

Tünis wilde thrvch thju strête fon tha middelsê vmbe to fârane fâr tha rika kaening fon Egiptalandum, lik hi wel êr dên hêde, men Inka sêide, that-i sin nocht hêde fon al et Findas folk.

Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Middle Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all the Finda people.

So the Egyptians also belonged to Finda's people. What you mean, 'complicated'?

=

Vnder tha HIndos aend ôthera ut-a lôndum sind welka ljuda mank thêr an stilnise by malkorum kvma. Se gelâvath thet se vnforbastere bern Findas sind. Se gelâvath thet Finda fon ut-et Himmellaeja berchta bern is, hvanâ se mith hjara bern nêi tha delta jeftha lêgte togen is. Welke vnder tham gelâvath thet se mith hjra bern vppet skum thêr hêlige Gongga del gonggen is. Thêrvmbe skolde thi runstrâme hêlige Gongga hêta. Mâr tha prestera thêr ut en ôr lônd wech kvma lêton thi ljuda vpspêra aend vrbarna, thêrvmbe ne thurvath se far hjara sêk nit ôpentlik ut ni kvma.

Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himalaya mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed.

=

Thaet folk was navt ne wild lik fêlo slachta Findas, men êlik anda Égipta-landar, hja haevath prestera lik tham aend nw hja kaerka haeve âk byldon.

They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches.

You know.... maybe these Finns with their Magiars were not Findas at all??

The OLB only says they were not as wild as most of the Findas, but more like the Egyptians (who - see earlier quote - were also Findas).

But why would the Finns with their Magiars be compaired with the Findas if they did not belong to that people?

Anyway, we have Findas east of Twiskland, we have Findas in the Punjab/India, we have Findas in Egypt...

And then add the physical description the OLB gives of Finda, the Mother: yellow skin with black hair like the manes of a horse. That doesn't look much like someone from Egypt or India, one automatically thinks of the Mongols.

Hmm. I thought that they might not be but this really says they are, it also suggests that the mother's birth land is Aldland and is under the sea. Because from other paragraphs we know that Findas birth land is in the Himmelaia.

In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith;

basically...the findas folk lived all together in there mothers birthland, named aldland that is now under the sea.

the birthland is Himmelaia - so nearly all the Findas folk lived in the Himmelaia/Himalaya if so.

That MUST be Aldland. I agree with you that is does seem to be the most likely from the context of those parts.

OK, the Indus River you say? Maybe so.

Kasamyr - it says is a plain on a mountain and where Jessos was born, from how I interpret it, at the same time as Atland sunk, so how could he be born at a place that sunk at the same time?

I can see how that Kashmir might have been a sea once, or under water, because its name means 'to desiccate' which mean to dry out, the Aral Sea is desiccating. The valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake.

According to folk etymology, the name "Kashmir" means "desiccated land" (from the Sanskrit: Ka = water and shimeera = desiccate). In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the mid-12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. According to Hindu mythology, the lake was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura, which has been identified with Kaspapyros of Hecataeus (apud Stephanus of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44).[1] Kashmir is also believed to be the country meant by Ptolemy's Kaspeiria.[2] Cashmere is an archaic spelling of Kashmir, and in some countries it is still spelled this way.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Kashmir

Earliest Neolithic sites in the flood plains of Kashmir valley are dated to c. 3000 BCE

Kashmir Valley: Mughal emperor Jahangir called it "Paradise on Earth."

http://en.wikipedia..../Kashmir_valley

Earliest Neolithic sites in the flood plains of Kashmir valley are dated to c. 3000 BCE. Most important of these sites are the settlements at Burzahom, which had two Neolithic and one Megalithic phases. First phase (c. 2920 BCE) at Burzahom is marked by mud plastered pit dwellings, coarse pottery and stone tools. In the second phase, which lasted till c. 1700 BCE, houses were constructed on ground level and the dead were buried, sometimes with domesticated and wild animals. Hunting and fishing were the primary modes of subsistence though evidence of cultivation of wheat, barley, and lentils has also been found in both the phases.[23][24] In the megalithic phase, massive circles were constructed and grey or black burnish replaced coarse red ware in pottery.[25] During the later Vedic period, as kingdoms of the Vedic tribes expanded, the Uttara–Kurus settled in Kashmir.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Kashmir

OK I think Atland might conceivably be associated with Kashmir. The houses were still being built 1700BC though, but it is a second phase, so some of the valley may have become reinhabitable by then.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Does anyone know what word was used in the (most) original text?

Doubt any of these will answer your question , dont know where your thinking was going .......but from Devi Bhagatavam ....

Ksettraja...Offspring of a wife by a kinsman , appointed to procreate for the husband .

Kunda.......A child born out of adultery .

Sahoda......The child of a woman already pregnant , before marriage .

Goloka.......b****** child of a widow.

Kanina........Child born to a young unmarried woman.

Krita............A purchased child .

Devi............A child born to a woman , impregnated by a god .

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Just to add:

VRSTURVEN (-E) [57]

DU: verb: versterven, past participle: verstorven

This is what it means nowadays:

http://nl.wikipedia....sterving_(dood)

http://en.wikipedia....nal_dehydration

http://www.etymologi...oord/versterven

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...VMNW&id=ID48903

.

Starve/starving - extremely famished, can die of starvation.

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Doubt any of these will answer your question , dont know where your thinking was going .......but from Devi Bhagatavam ....

Ksettraja...Offspring of a wife by a kinsman , appointed to procreate for the husband .

Kunda.......A child born out of adultery .

Sahoda......The child of a woman already pregnant , before marriage .

Goloka.......b****** child of a widow.

Kanina........Child born to a young unmarried woman.

Krita............A purchased child .

Devi............A child born to a woman , impregnated by a god .

I assume Gestur wanted to know if the original Greek word was anything similar to bast.ard.

It is not:

Singular: nothos,

Plural: nothoi

Nor are your Indian ones.

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Starve/starving - extremely famished, can die of starvation.

I know all about it: that is how my mother died more than 3 weeks ago. At some point she (91 years old) simply refused to eat and drink.

-

But Gestur's word was vrsturven, and it has a perfect Dutch equivalent, verstorven.

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Here's Olof again: In 1717, Swedish professor Olof Rudbeck proposed about 100 etymologies connecting Finnish and Hungarian, of which about 40 are still considered valid (Collinder, 1965).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages

He must have been pushing the idea that the Magyar of Hungary and Sami were related once...and he mentions Atland and wrote dictionaries I reckon this Olaf Rudbeck could have written the Oera Linda Book in his sleep. It wouldn't conform to his idea of Atland in Sweden unless some changes have been made of a possible original through copying or intentional change to reflect a more acceptable choice of place for the Finns to have come.

I could see this one being 'son' meaning and it fits the svn - whereby the v represents a long o sound as I explained before. son - soon, zoon - a vein or offshoot.

'vein / sinew' *sï(x)ni suoni (suone-) soon suuń suotna suona san šün sən sən ɬan taan ín teʔ

Suone.

Sweden enters proto-history with the Germania of Tacitus in AD 98. In Germania 44, 45 he mentions the Swedes (Suiones) as a powerful tribe (distinguished not merely for their arms and men, but for their powerful fleets) with ships that had a prow in both ends (longships). Which kings (kuningaz) ruled these Suiones is unknown, but Norse mythology presents a long line of legendary and semi-legendary kings going back to the last centuries BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedes

Maybe like Suebi/Suevi - if we went with a Uralic meaning for this the name could mean 'the sons of' - - but alas, they give a Proto-Germanic root.

The Suebi or Suevi (from Proto-Germanic *swēbaz, either based on the Proto-Germanic root *swē- meaning "one's own" people,[1] from an Indo-European root *swe-,[2][3] the third person reflexive pronoun, or borrowed from a Celtic word for "vagabond"[4]) were a group of Germanic peoples who were first mentioned by Julius Caesar in connection with Ariovistus' campaign, c. 58 BC

I wouldn't be surprised if the root of 'Sami' is in this word:

'eye' *śilmä silmä silm silm čalbmi čalme śeĺme šinča śin śin, śinm- sem sam szem sæwə

Guessing a connection here too: The Silmarillion is a complex work exhibiting the influence of many sources. A major influence was the Finnish epic Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silmarillion

For Tacitus, the Suebi comprise the Semnones, who are "the oldest and noblest of the Suebi"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

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Hmm. I thought that they might not be but this really says they are, it also suggests that the mother's birth land is Aldland and is under the sea. Because from other paragraphs we know that Findas birth land is in the Himmelaia.

In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith;

basically...the findas folk lived all together in there mothers birthland, named aldland that is now under the sea.

the birthland is Himmelaia - so nearly all the Findas folk lived in the Himmelaia/Himalaya if so.

That MUST be Aldland. I agree with you that is does seem to be the most likely from the context of those parts.

OK, the Indus River you say? Maybe so.

Kasamyr - it says is a plain on a mountain and where Jessos was born, from how I interpret it, at the same time as Atland sunk, so how could he be born at a place that sunk at the same time?

I can see how that Kashmir might have been a sea once, or under water, because its name means 'to desiccate' which mean to dry out, the Aral Sea is desiccating. The valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake.

According to folk etymology, the name "Kashmir" means "desiccated land" (from the Sanskrit: Ka = water and shimeera = desiccate). In the Rajatarangini, a history of Kashmir written by Kalhana in the mid-12th century, it is stated that the valley of Kashmir was formerly a lake. According to Hindu mythology, the lake was drained by the great rishi or sage, Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma, by cutting the gap in the hills at Baramulla (Varaha-mula). When Kashmir had been drained, Kashyapa asked Brahmans to settle there. This is still the local tradition, and in the existing physical condition of the country, we may see some ground for the story which has taken this form. The name of Kashyapa is by history and tradition connected with the draining of the lake, and the chief town or collection of dwellings in the valley was called Kashyapa-pura, which has been identified with Kaspapyros of Hecataeus (apud Stephanus of Byzantium) and Kaspatyros of Herodotus (3.102, 4.44).[1] Kashmir is also believed to be the country meant by Ptolemy's Kaspeiria.[2] Cashmere is an archaic spelling of Kashmir, and in some countries it is still spelled this way.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Kashmir

Earliest Neolithic sites in the flood plains of Kashmir valley are dated to c. 3000 BCE

Kashmir Valley: Mughal emperor Jahangir called it "Paradise on Earth."

http://en.wikipedia..../Kashmir_valley

Earliest Neolithic sites in the flood plains of Kashmir valley are dated to c. 3000 BCE. Most important of these sites are the settlements at Burzahom, which had two Neolithic and one Megalithic phases. First phase (c. 2920 BCE) at Burzahom is marked by mud plastered pit dwellings, coarse pottery and stone tools. In the second phase, which lasted till c. 1700 BCE, houses were constructed on ground level and the dead were buried, sometimes with domesticated and wild animals. Hunting and fishing were the primary modes of subsistence though evidence of cultivation of wheat, barley, and lentils has also been found in both the phases.[23][24] In the megalithic phase, massive circles were constructed and grey or black burnish replaced coarse red ware in pottery.[25] During the later Vedic period, as kingdoms of the Vedic tribes expanded, the Uttara–Kurus settled in Kashmir.

http://en.wikipedia....tory_of_Kashmir

OK I think Atland might conceivably be associated with Kashmir. The houses were still being built 1700BC though, but it is a second phase, so some of the valley may have become reinhabitable by then.

Thats a great story of the great lake at kasimere , the caledonian boar was the one that kasyapa conjured up to break the retaining walls , and flood the valleys below

there is some connection to jews again as the kashmiri think they are descended from the 10 lost tribes , the waters flooded Baramundi , and Srinagar , and flooded ,

uri causing an exodus , (uri is also the name of the place in Switzerland where the pile village was found in the lake , and of course its nearly the name of the

Sumerian city of UR .) Srinagar is where the Indians say Jesus is buried , and also Solomons Temple , and there is a burial shrine also for AAron .

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I know all about it: that is how my mother died more than 3 weeks ago. At some point she (91 years old) simply refused to eat and drink.

-

But Gestur's word was vrsturven, and it has a perfect Dutch equivalent, verstorven.

That's terrible news mate, my sincere condolences.

Would you believe my brother died last year, from intentional dehydration also, his body could not recover from an accident due to his liver damage so he literally starved to death in hospital, he was unconscious for a while beforehand and died in pallative care after decisions had to be made. I don't often share my personal life on the board but will do so this time just to let you know.

Edited by The Puzzler

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That's terrible news mate, my sincere condolences.

Would you believe my brother died last year, from intentional dehydration also, his body could not recover from an accident due to his liver damage so he literally starved to death in hospital, he was unconscious for a while beforehand and died in pallative care after decisions had to be made. I don't often share my personal life on the board but will do so this time just to let you know.

Thanks Puzz, and my condolences to you too.

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Thanks Puzz, and my condolences to you too.

Thanks Abe.

I wonder then if there is any evidence for any sort of flood in the Kashmir valley circa 2200BC, considering there is mention of severe flooding in China, it could be. I know we have gone over some of this before but I think the mention of 2 stages with 2200BC in between building stages, that the area was a former lake/sea and underwater might lend to it being flooded at the same time as China. Time for some über-Googling. :tu:

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Well, I'll try to focus on any clues on the Pamir plateau.

Since the end of the ice age, Tibet has risen at approximately 10 millimetres (0.39 in) per year, at the same rate as the Himalaya. While the Himalaya rise can be explained by plate tectonics, the rise of Tibet can be explained as the isostatic rebound of the crust rising after the weight of the ice was removed. The amount of isostatic rebound since the last ice age is approximately 650 metres (2,130 ft).

http://en.wikipedia....Tibetan_Plateau

Glacial Lake Outburst Floods in the Pamir of Tajikistan

http://www.ijege.uni...ili-et-alii.pdf

"Attabad [Hunza] a site of prehistoric megaslides”

http://pamirtimes.ne...ric-megaslides/

1. The dam should be treated with the utmost concern. A dam of probably somewhat smaller dimensions in 1858 filled and failed catastrophically leading to a flood wave that caused immense damage — the second largest on record for the Upper Indus – reported to have had an 18m peak at Attock, probably more than 20 m at Chilas, and likely 10-15 m at Tarbela, scouring and carrying immense volumes of sediment.

This is an 19th century article about the 40 years old Hindoo-Koosh-Pamir theory:

Popular Science Monthly/Volume 38/January 1891/The Aryan Question and Prehistoric Man I

The Hindoo-Koosh-Pamir theory, once enunciated, gradually hardened into a sort of dogma ; and there have not been wanting theorists who laid down the routes of the successive bands of emigrants with as much con- fidence as if they had access to the records of the office of a primi- tive Aryan quartermaster-general. It is really singular to ob- serve the deference which has been shown, and is yet sometimes shown, to a speculation which can, at best, claim to be regarded as nothing better than a somewhat risky working hypothesis.

Forty years ago, the credit of the Hindoo-Koosh-Pamir theory had risen almost to that of an axiom.

http://en.wikisource...ehistoric_Man_I

40 years old at 1891? That's around 1851. Cornelis over de Linden and others who may have been connected with the OLB could have known about it.

water-towers-of-asia-glaciers-water-and-population-in-the-greater-himalayas-hindu-kush-tien-shan-tibet-region_14b9-1024x752.png

http://www.yowangdu....e-is-tibet.html

Geological Prerequisites for Landslide Dams' Disaster Assessment and Mitigation in Central Asia

https://docs.google....axFhwErEDdZ58vg

Natural and Artificial Rockslide Dams

Stephen G. Evans,Reginald L. Hermanns,Alexander Strom,Gabriele Scarascia-Mugnozza

http://books.google....history&f=false

Ancient India

The Prehistoric Period

http://www.jeywin.co...cient-India.pdf

According to Edward Mayor, the Indo-Iranian residents lived in some place near Pamir.

http://www.indianetz...home_aryans.htm

TRACING OUR ANCESTORS

by: Frederick Haberman

(also about the Pamir and Noah's Flood)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9168543/Tracing-Our-Ancestors-Frederick-Haberman

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Now this is more like it:

Ancient Europeans mysteriously vanished 4,500 years ago

The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, new research suggests.

The findings, detailed Tuesday in the journal Nature Communications, were drawn from several skeletons unearthed in central Europe that were up to 7,500 years old.

"What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why," study co-author Alan Cooper of the University of Adelaide Australian Center for Ancient DNA said in a statement. "Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."

http://science.nbcne...-years-ago?lite

Co-author Prof Alan Cooper, from the University of Adelaide in Australia, said: "What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why.

"Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-22252099

A new study of DNA from ancient remains provides further evidence that farming was first spread to Europe by migrants.

It casts doubt on the alternative theory in which agriculture was adopted by Europe's existing hunter-gatherer populations, spreading via cultural exchange with neighbouring tribes.

Science journal says a team compared DNA from the skeleton of an ancient farmer with that from three hunters.

They found the "farmer" was genetically distinct from hunters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-17857641

.

Edited by Abramelin

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That's terrible news mate, my sincere condolences.

Would you believe my brother died last year, from intentional dehydration also, his body could not recover from an accident due to his liver damage so he literally starved to death in hospital, he was unconscious for a while beforehand and died in pallative care after decisions had to be made. I don't often share my personal life on the board but will do so this time just to let you know.

I am very sorry to read what happened to your brother and in fact to all of you. It must be difficult for you to understand why this happened. I can only wish you strength !

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I know all about it: that is how my mother died more than 3 weeks ago. At some point she (91 years old) simply refused to eat and drink.

-

But Gestur's word was vrsturven, and it has a perfect Dutch equivalent, verstorven.

My condoleances. Even on this age you would certainly prefer a more human end.

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