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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Notice that only in the three fragments from the text about Black Adel, the plural is spelled SALT.ÁTHUM.

In the other (older) ones it is SALT.ÁTHA / SALT.ATHA (singular: SALT.ÁTHE is used only once in fragment 1.2).

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P43 "When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there.

Similar lake eruptions were recorded in Ireland by the authors of Annals of the Four Masters.

In 505 BC Lough Melvin in Co. Donegal burst forth.

In 1409 BC several lakes burst forth and the sea flooded coastal lands in Donegal Bay.

In 1448 BC Lough Erne burst forth.

These eruptions could have ben caused by melting of subterranean ice and permafrost left as residue from the Ice Age.

Is it possible that Schoonland was Iceland?

The book Atlantis of the North by Jurgen Spanuth (Sidgwick and Jackson 1976) discusses evidence for the flooding of the Heligoland 'Peninsula'.

P212 "The tradition of Asgard contains memories of a Holy Island that sank into the sea about 1200 BC".

There is abundant archaeological evidence that much of the North Sea was dry land much earlier, in the Mesolithic about 8000 years ago.

I have just come across OLB and first impressions are that it could provide further insight into the Classical world; of course it needs careful cross-checking against semi-mythical annals and sagas and especially withother more reliable Classical sources.

post-140480-0-02428000-1372548919_thumb.

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I have just come across OLB and first impressions are that it could provide further insight into the Classical world; of course it needs careful cross-checking against semi-mythical annals and sagas and especially withother more reliable Classical sources.

Thank you for writing Donaldon, and welcome to the forum.

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Simple.

If BUK (buik) can mean "mother's body" (moederlijf), then the diminutive BUKJA can mean "young mother's body" => girl

And we all know that is bs.

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P43 "When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there.

Similar lake eruptions were recorded in Ireland by the authors of Annals of the Four Masters.

In 505 BC Lough Melvin in Co. Donegal burst forth.

In 1409 BC several lakes burst forth and the sea flooded coastal lands in Donegal Bay.

In 1448 BC Lough Erne burst forth.

These eruptions could have ben caused by melting of subterranean ice and permafrost left as residue from the Ice Age.

Is it possible that Schoonland was Iceland?

The book Atlantis of the North by Jurgen Spanuth (Sidgwick and Jackson 1976) discusses evidence for the flooding of the Heligoland 'Peninsula'.

P212 "The tradition of Asgard contains memories of a Holy Island that sank into the sea about 1200 BC".

There is abundant archaeological evidence that much of the North Sea was dry land much earlier, in the Mesolithic about 8000 years ago.

I have just come across OLB and first impressions are that it could provide further insight into the Classical world; of course it needs careful cross-checking against semi-mythical annals and sagas and especially withother more reliable Classical sources.

post-140480-0-02428000-1372548919_thumb.

I have been cut off from gas/electricity, so I am using the computer of my neighbour now.

If you want to discuss Irish legends, ask Cormac. He's of Irish descent.

This has been discussed before.

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Why אברהם, so you can backstab me like you did him?

I never did, and you are nothing but his sockpuppet.

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And we all know that is bs.

Speak for yourself. Puzzler and I see it.

You must be the only one who does not get it.

BUKJA is diminutive from BUK.

ONW (Oudnederlands Woordenboek, Olddutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=ONW&id=ID2217&lemmodern=buik

būk - Modern lemma: buik

Moederschoot, baarmoeder, buik => (mothers-) womb, uterus, belly

MNW (Middelnederlands Woordenboek, Middledutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iWDB/search?actie=article&wdb=MNW&id=05786&lemmodern=buik

BUUC - Varianten: buyc, buke, buc - Modern lemma: buik

Buik, in onze bet., in 't mnl. ook balch geheeten; ook in die van moederlijf => can mean mothers body

Conlusion: BUKJA for young woman is plausible, as it already was from the context.

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Posted (edited)

Speak for yourself. Puzzler and I see it.

You must be the only one who does not get it.

BUKJA is diminutive from BUK.

ONW (Oudnederlands Woordenboek, Olddutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

būk - Modern lemma: buik

Moederschoot, baarmoeder, buik => (mothers-) womb, uterus, belly

MNW (Middelnederlands Woordenboek, Middledutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

BUUC - Varianten: buyc, buke, buc - Modern lemma: buik

Buik, in onze bet., in 't mnl. ook balch geheeten; ook in die van moederlijf => can mean mothers body

Conlusion: BUKJA for young woman is plausible, as it already was from the context.

Here's an interesting word link:

Middle Low German

Etymology

From Old Saxon būk, from Proto-Germanic *būkaz (“belly, body”). Cognate with German Bauch (“belly”).

Synonyms

lif (body, figurative for belly)


NOTE mage (stomach)

West Frisian

Etymology

From Old Frisian maga, from Proto-Germanic *magô. Compare English maw, Low German mage, Dutch maag, German Magen, Danish mave, Swedish mage, Icelandic magi.

Noun

mage

  1. stomach

  2. http://en.wiktionary...ddle_Low_German
    If I'm not mistaken this is probable to why women are called Maagden and such in Germanic...?? Women who are pregnant, mothers with a belly.
    Etymology 2
    From Proto-Germanic *magô, from Indo-European *mak- ‘bag, belly’. Cognate with Old Frisian maga (West Frisian mage), Old Saxon mago (Low German mage), Middle Dutch maghe (Dutch maag), Old High German mago (German Magen), Old Norse magi (Swedish mage). The Indo-European root is also the source of Celtic *makno- (Welsh megin ‘bellows’), Slavic *mošьnā (Old Church Slavonic мошьна, Russian мошна (“pocket, bag”)), Baltic *maka- (Lithuanian mãkas ‘purse’).


Etymology 3

From Proto-Germanic *mēgô (“relative, in-law”), from Proto-Indo-European *mag'- (“to be able, help”). Cognate with Old Frisian mēch (“relative, kinsman”), Old Saxon māg (“a relation”), Old High German māg (“relative, kinsman”), Old Norse mágr (“father-in-law”), Gothic (megs, “son-in-law”). More at may.

http://en.wiktionary...aga#Old_Frisian

Same page into Spanish -

Spanish

Noun

maga f (plural magas)

  1. female magician, female conjurer


Edited by The Puzzler

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And we all know that is bs.

Why would it be? I showed this, maybe you missed it...

I found these:

būk 23, bū-k, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Bauch, Rumpf; ne. belly, trunk; ÜG.: lat. venter AB (9, 27); Vw.: s. -fest, -fest-e, -lam-ithe, -wu-n-d-e; Hw.: vgl. got. *būks, an. būkr, ae. būc, anfrk. būk, ahd. būh, plattd. buuk; Q.: S, W, E, AB (9, 27); E.: germ. *būka-, *būkaz, st. M. (a), Bauch, Leib; s. idg. *beu- (2), *bu-, *bʰeū̆-, *bʰū̆-, V., blasen, schwellen, Pokorny 98; W.: nfries. buwck; W.: saterl. buc; L.: Hh 13a, Rh 673a

būkfest 1 und häufiger, bū-k-fest, afries., Adj.: nhd. „bauchfest“, mannbar; ne. marriageable; E.: s. bū-k, fest (2); L.: Hh 13a

būkfeste 1 und häufiger, bū-k-fest-e, afries., F.: nhd. Mannbarkeit; ne. puberty; E.: s. bū-k, *fest-e (3); L.: Hh 13a

http://www.koeblerge...s/afries_b.html

Sounds to me related to women and girls, particularly towards pregnancy.

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Posted (edited)

P43 "When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there.

Similar lake eruptions were recorded in Ireland by the authors of Annals of the Four Masters.

In 505 BC Lough Melvin in Co. Donegal burst forth.

In 1409 BC several lakes burst forth and the sea flooded coastal lands in Donegal Bay.

In 1448 BC Lough Erne burst forth.

These eruptions could have ben caused by melting of subterranean ice and permafrost left as residue from the Ice Age.

Is it possible that Schoonland was Iceland?

The book Atlantis of the North by Jurgen Spanuth (Sidgwick and Jackson 1976) discusses evidence for the flooding of the Heligoland 'Peninsula'.

P212 "The tradition of Asgard contains memories of a Holy Island that sank into the sea about 1200 BC".

There is abundant archaeological evidence that much of the North Sea was dry land much earlier, in the Mesolithic about 8000 years ago.

I have just come across OLB and first impressions are that it could provide further insight into the Classical world; of course it needs careful cross-checking against semi-mythical annals and sagas and especially withother more reliable Classical sources.

post-140480-0-02428000-1372548919_thumb.

Hi, thanks for your contribution. Schoonland appears to be Sweden in the OLB.

I'd never heard of the Irish Lake eruptions and will check them out more in comparison with what the OLB describes. I really always wished I had a copy of Spanuths book too, sounds very interesting read.

The tradition of Asgard might imo have some relation to the impact of Kaali into Saaremaa, Estonia, which is Asaland country in that timeframe, it's not really known when it hit but it is plausible it was in the Bronze Age or early iron age imo and sent many people who lived in that area south with stories of the impact, maybe they used the iron after that, stories which then made it into Greek myths and possible early Celtic connections, maybe these people became Celts when they moved south after the impact.

Why do the Celts know the story so well? Baltic amber found in Mycenaean graves...

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber]

http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall 470 meters long, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.[citation needed]

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[5] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Info added that it may have occurred in the Nordic Bronze Age:

According to the theory of more recent impact, Estonia at the time of impact was in the Nordic Bronze Age and the site was forested with a small human population. The impact energy of about 80 TJ (20 kilotons of TNT) is comparable with that of the Hiroshima bomb blast. It incinerated forests within a 6 km radius

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kaali_crater

Which all points to a later time frame than 2193/94BC but still, it should have had an ' impact' somewhere.

I also think it's possible that the Ilumetsa impact is not quite as old as they say and is from the same time as Kaali, as it's right near it, unless one hit the same area twice within a few thousand years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilumetsa_crater

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Taara (variations of the name include Tooru, Tharapita and Tarapitha) is a god in Estonian mythology.

The Chronicle of Henry of Livonia mentions Tharapita as the superior god of Oeselians (inhabitants of Saaremaa island), also well known to Vironian tribes in northern Estonia. According to the chronicle, when the crusaders invaded Vironia in 1220, there was a beautiful wooded hill in Vironia, where locals believe Oeselian god Tharapita was born and from which he flew to Saaremaa. The hill is believed to be the Ebavere Hill (Ebavere mägi) in modern Lääne-Viru County.

The name Tharapita has been interpreted as "Taara, help!" (Taara, a(v)ita! in Estonian) and "Taara's thunderbolt" (Taara pikne).[1]

Tharapita also inspired an Estonian neopagan movement, known as taaralased or taarausulised. In the middle of the 19th century, Taara became popular in the national movement, as an anti-German and anti-Lutheran symbol, and creators of Estonian pseudomythology made Taara the supreme god of the Estonian pantheon. From that period, Estonia's second-biggest city Tartu was poetically called Taaralinn ("city of Taara").

Taara was known by the Tavastian tribe of Finland. At an old cult place now known as Laurin Lähde (Lauri's Fountain) in the county of Janakkala, Tavastians worshipped Taara there as late as the 18th century and the church had to close the place.

Tharapita may have been known among the Slavs of the island of Rügen, where Danish crusaders destroyed a pagan idol named Turupit in 1168.

The story of Taara's flight from Vironia to Saaremaa has been associated with a major meteor disaster that formed Lake Kaali in Saaremaa. One proponent of theories about the meteor and its consequences was historian Lennart Meri, the president of Estonia from 1992 to 2001, who wrote several books about the subject.

Variations similar to the name "Thor" are known to many peoples who speak Uralic languages. The Khants have a god named Torum, the Samis have Turms, and the Samoyeds have Tere. Finnish bishop Mikael Agricola mentions in 1551 a war god called Turisas, although this is more likely to refer to Thurisas; the Finns had also a god of harvest, luck and success called Tuuri. These deities are associated with the hypothetical proto-Uralic-language word meaning "high".[citation needed]

According to several medieval chronicles, Estonians did not work on Thursdays (days of Thor) and Thursday nights were called "evenings of Tooru". Some sources say Estonians used to gather in holy woods (Hiis) on Thursday evenings, where a bagpipe player sat on a stone and played while people danced and sang until the dawn.

I've argued the Kaali impact is the destruction that the OLB speaks of, but things don't sit with it as good as I'd like, still, it's an interesting event imo that should have some part in the history of the time.

Speaking of Ireland, how interesting that the word Tara is used there a lot, especially for high places. Thor, the God of Estonians really. Meaning HIGH. The more I look at words the more the IE examples seem steeped in Finnish and Estonian words.

The name Viru probably has Finnic roots (e.g., Finnish language vireä means "vivacious", "lively"). According to an alternative hypothesis the word Viru may have originated from Baltic languages with the meaning 'man' (cf. English word virile).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virumaa

In Finnic virea means ' vivacious, lively' - but then if we go to IE language we get maybe from virile, which means man.

Does anyone else think it sounds more than obvious the English virile is really steeped in the word viru too - and both words come from the same etymology?

Isn't being virile being vivacious and lively?

I imagine stags being pretty lively when virile, jumping round the place all excited and vivacious like trying to score the doe.

Being manly; having characteristics associated with being male, such as strength; exhibiting masculine traits to an exaggerated degree such as strength, forcefulness or vigor.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/virile

From Latin - anyone would think these Latins invented language.

The Kunda culture is from at least 6000BC and would have had much history and knowledge.

Then a meteor hits, they disperse in the Bronze Age....

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Here's an interesting word link:

Middle Low German

Etymology

mage (stomach)


NOTE mage (stomach)

West Frisian

Etymology

From Old Frisian maga, from Proto-Germanic *magô. Compare English maw, Low German mage, Dutch maag, German Magen, Danish mave, Swedish mage, Icelandic magi.

Noun

mage

  1. stomach

  2. http://en.wiktionary...ddle_Low_German
    If I'm not mistaken this is probable to why women are called Maagden and such in Germanic...?? Women who are pregnant, mothers with a belly.
    Etymology 2
    From Proto-Germanic *magô, from Indo-European *mak- ‘bag, belly’. Cognate with Old Frisian maga (West Frisian mage), Old Saxon mago (Low German mage), Middle Dutch maghe (Dutch maag), Old High German mago (German Magen), Old Norse magi (Swedish mage). The Indo-European root is also the source of Celtic *makno- (Welsh megin ‘bellows’), Slavic *mošьnā (Old Church Slavonic мошьна, Russian мошна (“pocket, bag”)), Baltic *maka- (Lithuanian mãkas ‘purse’).


Etymology 3

From Proto-Germanic *mēgô (“relative, in-law”), from Proto-Indo-European *mag'- (“to be able, help”). Cognate with Old Frisian mēch (“relative, kinsman”), Old Saxon māg (“a relation”), Old High German māg (“relative, kinsman”), Old Norse mágr (“father-in-law”), Gothic �������� (megs, “son-in-law”). More at may.

http://en.wiktionary...aga#Old_Frisian

Same page into Spanish -

Spanish

Noun

maga f (plural magas)

  1. female magician, female conjurer


Interesting as well....... The Medes of Media (originaly called by all peoples Aryans acc to Herodotus) but changed their name to Maga/Mada when Medea the Colchian came to them ,acc to Herodotus this is from their own account , the etymology of Maga/Mada is not known for certain but is thought to have meant middle or centre

(would still sit ok with Belly maybe ) in the ancient Median language.......said to be allied to old indic Madhya , and old iranian Maidiia both meaning the same thing, middle or central .

the earliest mention of the medes comes from assyrians 9th C BCE . which says the Medes were from the Elamite area of Simaski - todays Lorestan - and central Mahidasht in Kermanshah province of Kermania .

According to Herodotus again ......Medes were an ancient Iranian people who lived in an area called Media , and spoke their own N.W.Iranian language called the Median language. The 1st wave of Iranian tribes came here after the collapse of the Assyrian Empire at the end of the Bronze age from 10th to 7th C BCE, and had some autonomy for a period,becoming a fourth major power in the area after Babylonia , Lydia, and Egypt, However in the later rise of Neo-Assyria they again came under their sway , however they formed an alliance with Babylonia and Scythia , and together they captured Ninevah in 612 BCE , causing the collapse of the Neo-Assyrian empire.

+

Just thinking out loud .......The Myth of the Kaali meteor (Kalevala Epic) strike has it that ........an evil wizard stole the sun and fire from the people , before the meteor struck it had blotted out the sun and everywhere was in total darkness, i dont know if dust from a meteor on its way could do that , but that is what the myth seems to say , Ukko , God of the sky odered the sun to be re-lit , then they saw a spark where the virgin/goddess was trying to re-light it , the spark flew off and came to earth, exploded and caused flash fires in the forests , cremating people and animals for miles around., and caused the waters of the lake to rise, Finnish heroes seeing the ball of fire falling behind the Neva river (direction of Estonia , from Karelia) went in that direction to seek new fire ,and found it in a blazing forest .

If this was the cause of the disasters talked about in the OLB , and it has been mentioned many times about other disasters that happened in other parts of the world , where Empires seem to have fallen at ,or around the same time ..........what is the chances of the Indian KaliYuga .....Age of destruction/ rejuvenation...and the meteor that caused the Kaali crater being one and the same cause ???

According to Meri(1976) in the voyage of Pytheas who wrote in his book "Earth-Sea" went from Massalia (Marseilles) between 350 - 325 BC , visited Britain and then reports the Barbarians took him to Ultima Thule to see "the grave at the place where the dead sun fell"......if Thule does mean "fire" then the place of "Ultimate fire" could indeed describe an incredible firestorm (as we know from the Hiroshima bomb, which the power of the meteor at Saaremaa has been compared to ) . during his voyage Pytheas was also said to be gathering information about the (New ?) geography of the Baltic Sea , and the place where Amber came from .

The same metaphor also apparently comes from the epic " Argonautica" of Rhodus Apollonius (295 -215 BC) where a sailor describes a great lake he saw in the far north - which was described as the "burial place of the sun , from which a fog still rose from the glowing wound " This lead Meri to conclude that the catastrophe was known to geographers from different parts of the world , who actually came to see , the place of origin, or cause of the upheavals that hit the earth .

Cornelius Tacitus in his book Origine et situ Germanorum Liber , wrote " upon the right of the Suevian sea (Baltic ) the Aestyan nations (Estonian ) reside , they use the same costumes , and customs as the Suevi, and they worship the mother Goddess ( who ? the one who re-lit the sun , or gave birth to the new son ??) her name is Cybele and she is associated with the Meteorite ( Burke-1986 )

More than half of the ancient artifacts found in Estonia from the Neolithic/Bronze age come from the island of Saaremaa , thought to have been inhabited from 5800 BC , 3 late Bronze age fortified towns have been found , Asva, Ridala and Kaali .the island is reported to have become thought of as a Holy island , and may therefore have had many visitors , or pilgrims wanting to see where the sun came to earth.

Terrestrial impact events have severely affected both the geological and biological evolution of the earth, devastating examples of meteoric devastation are well known from the cretacious - Tertyiary and poss even Permian - Triasic boundaries , triggering the most massive extinctions recorded in the Earths fossils , though maybe not of that extreme could Kaali have triggered an upheaval of the lands and seas and toppled Empires , could the world have known the impact was in Kaali , and named a new age after it, ? and could a new Myth have arrisen that the Sun/son of God came to earth in the far North , and the people that later came from that general area were born of the Gods (Goths ) and the Angels ( Angles )??

Edited by NO-ID-EA
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Posted (edited)

Great post NO-IDEA. Glad you can see much in it too.

Just on buk again, I was reading a book on Runes last night and saw this:

BEORC is the rune of the Great Mother and as such is the primary rune of fertility. In a runescript it represents a very feminine and nurturing female type.

Beorc is the same sound as buk and is no doubt in my mind these 2 words are the same meaning underlying them both.

FEMALE, NURTURING, MOTHER

the ja ending like ia most probably indicates a young version of a buk - bukja = young woman

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Following on from the Medes/Magi and their alliance with the Babylonians and the Scyth's, the Magi were a priestly tribe of the medes , say like the Levites of the Jews , maybe the Brahmins of the indians , they were revered amongst the Medes as divine beings , had an impressive knowledge for the time of politics, literature , medicine, mathematics , astrology , astronomy , meteorology , and alchemy , together with an understanding of musical theory , because of this they were exceptionally renowned throughout Persia , Egypt, Greece, Rome and India (we have discussed before on here about ancient M being two N's , and two V's making up W, i am currently leaning in the direction of the Mada/Maga , as per above post being known to the indians as NNaga, ...therefore the Naga's, purely speculative at this time )

They claimed the power to speak for/to the Gods and Angels , to be able to prophecy future events , to understand dreams , to be able to speak to departed souls , perform magic and perform religious rites ......they claimed their royal bloodlines inherited these powers through their line , which gave them second sight , and supernatural powers ,beholding these powers the common people adored them , and the kings, emperors and rulers of many countries held them in high office in their courts as advisors , and personal gurus .

back in Media , only 20 years after the death of Mohammed between 642 and the 1st decade of the 8th C AD , arab islamic forces swept into Media , across the Oxus river , into the lands of the nomadic turks , they decimated pre-islamic persian and turkic cultures , and stole the priceless cities of asias silk road , Bokhara and Samarkhand,

The ousted Royal family , and the Magi of Zoroaster( although it is still uncertain whether the Magi followed the Zoroastrian version , or the Zarathustra version of Sun and fire worship ) fled to Tabaristan near the Caspian sea , determined to preserve their religion , and were allowed to settle by the large Buddhist population that already occupied the area , with a mixture of turks who fled with them , and the Buddhists already there , the built the well defended towns of Khoresenia and carried on their lives ....however not for long .

The islamic forces seemed to have decided that the Magi were not to be allowed to survive , , in 712 AD Khorezm in the land of the sun , was burned to the ground by the islamists , men were slaughtered and women raped , in the aftermath , the survivors were detained and interrogated to discover who amongst them were the Magi , any found to be Magi were executed , and the others were deported , to make way for ensuing waves of arab colonists,all the islamists needed to do now was to root out and burn the books , and knowledge that the Magi had collected since the bronze age ,

However according to reports their worst nightmare was realised , they hardly found any , meaning not only that the a large part of the Magi had escaped , but also that they had preserved their books and records , and had now been scattered across the lands and would now disseminate their religion in various parts of the world , alarmed at the prospect the islamists set off in pursuit .

Tenuous i know , but because i am of the view that chronology is shot to pieces in the history that has been handed down, i wonder if this story could be the story of the Magi arriving behind the fris, hotly persued by their enemy . the Magians were comprised of 6 tribes , The Busai(from around Ecbatana ) Parateceni (Aspadana ), , Arizanti ( Kashan ), and the Magi ( around Rhaga ), the Strachates and the buddai were said not to live in large towns but were spread out in the area in small villages .( but just wonder if the strachates may be the nomadic turks , and the buddai the buddhists that were already living in Tabaristan , when the turks and Magi fled there ??

Notes:- i am reminded of posts we had a while ago of the number of places in the north that started with the word "bud" and wonder if we could tentatively connect them to the buddai tribe of the Medes ?, .............i am also just pondering if dates given in OLB ......may not refer back to the jewish date of creation / or the flood , but may reference to the Kali/Kaali age ? (whatever that mightbe ??) could be related to an Indian dating system ( especially with OLB/Frisian connections to India ) what difference this might make to the dates of events i am not sure?)

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Interesting as well....... The Medes of Media (originaly called by all peoples Aryans acc to Herodotus) but changed their name to Maga/Mada when Medea the Colchian came to them ,acc to Herodotus this is from their own account , the etymology of Maga/Mada is not known for certain but is thought to have meant middle or centre

(would still sit ok with Belly maybe ) in the ancient Median language.......said to be allied to old indic Madhya , and old iranian Maidiia both meaning the same thing, middle or central .

Yes, how co-incidental that Medea is a great female sorceress, the meaning of it in Spanish at least. But it seems the meaning is there somewhere in sorceress then maidiia, seems like maid, female again, and all related to middle or belly....Colchis itself, a great Sun centre, maidens and fires.

Although it also could be that Medeans were actually named Maga/Mada/Med after Medea in myth because the name actually DID stem from the meaning ' female sorceress' - not that some woman called Medea actually was, but the line of Medeans came from a line of female sorceresses, rather than male, to begin - like the ancient women of Nordic mythology, volvas and such.

Time or power might have created a change of hands into men, known then in Persian times as Chaldean priests or Magi.

Just thinking out loud .......The Myth of the Kaali meteor (Kalevala Epic) strike has it that ........an evil wizard stole the sun and fire from the people , before the meteor struck it had blotted out the sun and everywhere was in total darkness, i dont know if dust from a meteor on its way could do that , but that is what the myth seems to say , Ukko , God of the sky odered the sun to be re-lit , then they saw a spark where the virgin/goddess was trying to re-light it , the spark flew off and came to earth, exploded and caused flash fires in the forests , cremating people and animals for miles around., and caused the waters of the lake to rise, Finnish heroes seeing the ball of fire falling behind the Neva river (direction of Estonia , from Karelia) went in that direction to seek new fire ,and found it in a blazing forest .

If this was the cause of the disasters talked about in the OLB , and it has been mentioned many times about other disasters that happened in other parts of the world , where Empires seem to have fallen at ,or around the same time ..........what is the chances of the Indian KaliYuga .....Age of destruction/ rejuvenation...and the meteor that caused the Kaali crater being one and the same cause ???

Seems too co-incidental I agree. And who exactly were these people who arrived in India, taken for "IE invaders"..? Or the Mycenaeans, who imo seem likely to have come from the Baltic and could have had the knowledge that incorportated the original stories into later Greek myths.

According to Meri(1976) in the voyage of Pytheas who wrote in his book "Earth-Sea" went from Massalia (Marseilles) between 350 - 325 BC , visited Britain and then reports the Barbarians took him to Ultima Thule to see "the grave at the place where the dead sun fell"......if Thule does mean "fire" then the place of "Ultimate fire" could indeed describe an incredible firestorm (as we know from the Hiroshima bomb, which the power of the meteor at Saaremaa has been compared to ) . during his voyage Pytheas was also said to be gathering information about the (New ?) geography of the Baltic Sea , and the place where Amber came from

The same metaphor also apparently comes from the epic " Argonautica" of Rhodus Apollonius (295 -215 BC) where a sailor describes a great lake he saw in the far north - which was described as the "burial place of the sun , from which a fog still rose from the glowing wound " This lead Meri to conclude that the catastrophe was known to geographers from different parts of the world , who actually came to see , the place of origin, or cause of the upheavals that hit the earth ..

Yes, the story of Phaethon particularly mentions amber and how many places would fit this description when Kaali was seemingly known so well? Were these all over Europe? No, imo the story of this impact into Estonia where the Aesti lived, possibly even referencing Aesir Gods of the same area, is where it occurred and transported itself into others cultural myths. It was Celts and the Scandinavian people who had these elaborate stories and myths.

Cornelius Tacitus in his book Origine et situ Germanorum Liber , wrote " upon the right of the Suevian sea (Baltic ) the Aestyan nations (Estonian ) reside , they use the same costumes , and customs as the Suevi, and they worship the mother Goddess ( who ? the one who re-lit the sun , or gave birth to the new son ??) her name is Cybele and she is associated with the Meteorite ( Burke-1986 )

Ifkja is a Suebian in the OLB, so it's interesting that they are mentioned as being a kind of Estonian - Cybele, so one would think these is a Phrygian connection also somewhere, which doesn't seem unreasonable imo.

More than half of the ancient artifacts found in Estonia from the Neolithic/Bronze age come from the island of Saaremaa , thought to have been inhabited from 5800 BC , 3 late Bronze age fortified towns have been found , Asva, Ridala and Kaali .the island is reported to have become thought of as a Holy island , and may therefore have had many visitors , or pilgrims wanting to see where the sun came to earth.

I'm really glad you investigated Kaali some more, so interesting and starts making things come together.

Terrestrial impact events have severely affected both the geological and biological evolution of the earth, devastating examples of meteoric devastation are well known from the cretacious - Tertyiary and poss even Permian - Triasic boundaries , triggering the most massive extinctions recorded in the Earths fossils , though maybe not of that extreme could Kaali have triggered an upheaval of the lands and seas and toppled Empires , could the world have known the impact was in Kaali , and named a new age after it, ? and could a new Myth have arrisen that the Sun/son of God came to earth in the far North , and the people that later came from that general area were born of the Gods (Goths ) and the Angels ( Angles )??

Yes, I think so NO-IDEA.

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Posted (edited)

Just as a side-note NO-IDEA - mentioning Goths and Medians, I will just note so you might like to follow it through more...

In the first millennium BC, the term "Gutium" was used to refer to the region between the Zagros and the Tigris, also known as western Media. All tribes to the east and northeast who often had hostile relations with the peoples of lowland Mesopotamia, were referred to as Gutian [10] or Guti. Assyrian royal annals use the term Gutians to refer to Iranian populations otherwise known as Medes or Mannaeans; and as late as the reign of Cyrus the Great of Persia, the famous general Gubaru (Gobryas) was described as the "governor of Gutium".

In the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia. Oppert's theory on this connection is not shared by many scholars today, in the absence of further evidence.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Gutian_people

Absence of evidence...always a problem, nevertheless, he must have had his reasons for thinking so and I'm pretty sure he knew his subject matters history - which could place a Scandinavian people (from Gotland area, check that place out) into Sumer circa. 2200BC, in a time of upheaval in the area, so much so, these Gutians, " who didn't know Marduk" took over the Kingship of Sumer and are in the Sumerian King Lists.

If that is true, that these Gutians were Goths who had entered and taken over Sumer circa 2200BC, one wonders what that would mean...maybe giants in the Levant. Who knows but I always find it another interesting thing to add into the equation.

According to the historian Henry Hoyle Howorth (1901), Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[11][12][13][14] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".[15][16] This racial character of the Gutians as blondes or being light skinned was also taken up by Georges Vacher de Lapouge in 1899 and later by historian Sidney Smith in his Early history of Assyria (1928).[17][18] Ephraim Avigdor Speiser however criticised the translation of "namrum" as "light colored". An article was published by Speiser in the Journal of the American Oriental Society attacking Gelb's translation.[19] Gelb in response accused Speiser of circular reasoning.[20] In response Speiser claimed the scholarship regarding the translation of "namrum" or "namrûtum" is unresolved

I believe also the Budini were described as red-haired and blue-eyed.

Not much to do with the OLB, although the time frame of circa. 2200BC features in both these events.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Hi Puzzler ..Where is everybody ???... i expected to get my ears chewed off pretty badly after that last couple of speculative posts.......i need to read more about Gutium , and Gutians i think, and i will try to find Sydney Smiths book on line if i can , i still like Scythians as being Northmen originally ,possibly later Rus-sians , Rus-sions , or Rus-i-am's , and i still like a possible Cy-Rus connection, but its going to need a lot more work and investigation ,

trouble is my book reading list keeps getting longer and longer , i am still trying to link our north men to India and the Vrijji Confederation ??

Dont forget those posts about Kasyappa , and Arjuna visiting the North , and knowing about the " year being but one day in the land of the gods (Goths)".......only trouble is that does not happen in Estonia ? not far enough north ?

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Posted (edited)

Re :- Kaali , if you read the myths , as i said they thought a great magician stole or killed the sun , and the north (at least) was in darkness, so the God Ukko ordered the Goddess to re-light it , when the spark flew off and fell to earth , causing the crater in which the water rose up ( actually there were also 8 smaller craters made by the meteor breaking up ) .......but anyway , Kaali was left with a crater , which then filled up with water , and became a lake , which was then revered as the Holy place where "the dead sun fell to earth"... Walls were built around the rim , and it became like a temple , a very holy place .

This from....... "Conversations with the Dalai Lama ( ever noticed the similarity of lama with i-am-a ...i am god , jewish god i am ?) on the story of Tibet " by Thomas Laird .(page 38/39 )

" Songzhen Gampo was the spiritual leader of Tibet , he was guided by the Bodhisattva , to send a minister Gar Tongzen to the Tang court to obtain for himself

a chinese consort for the chinese Emperor to show that the two were equals , and to be the basis of a peace. however Gampo suspected him of plots against him on his return , and had him blinded .

Laird put to the Dalai Lama..........This first Emperor Songzhe Gampo has many Myths attributed to him and his time . one myth has it that while the first Buddhist Emperor and his Chinese and Nepalese wives were building the first temple , Rainbows were flaring in the sky...........Dalai Lama ....Yes that is one of many such myths,some we can explain and some we cannot .

Laird.......Also according to Tibetan Myth " The first Temple was built over the top of a Lake ( apparently geological research confirms there was indeed a lake in the ancient Lhasa valley ) and that it was a Stipulation of the Emperor , and his wives that the Jokhang (1st Temple) must be built over the lake..........the Dalai Lama laughed , and said " Songzen Gampo was very stubborn , he could have built the Jokhang anywhere else , that would have been easier , and more stable ! So he must have had some spiritual reason for building it exactly as it was .

going back to Ultima Thule , Kaali/Kali , what were the myths about the rainbows over the temple , was this myth about the Aurora borealis visible over the Northern Thule temple , and why did the Emperor insist it be built over a lake , could this again be to copy the walled crater lake " where the sun/son came to earth"

Maybe just another coincidence ???

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Posted (edited)

Speak for yourself. Puzzler and I see it.

You must be the only one who does not get it.

BUKJA is diminutive from BUK.

ONW (Oudnederlands Woordenboek, Olddutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

būk - Modern lemma: buik

Moederschoot, baarmoeder, buik => (mothers-) womb, uterus, belly

MNW (Middelnederlands Woordenboek, Middledutch dictionary):

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=buik

BUUC - Varianten: buyc, buke, buc - Modern lemma: buik

Buik, in onze bet., in 't mnl. ook balch geheeten; ook in die van moederlijf => can mean mothers body

Conlusion: BUKJA for young woman is plausible, as it already was from the context.

I am at my neighbour's computer now. It feels like driving an old Ford while being used to driving a Porsche, lol.

This has nothing to do with a mother's belly or what's in it (that IS ridiculous, right?), it has to do with a 'bok' or 'bokje', a little buck or little goat.

It's nothing but a nickname for a young girl, or a young anything (boy AND girl).

Think about that, please, and I will be back in a week or so.

==

How's Otharus doing?

If you're not him, then please tell us.

[I'll be back]

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Where is everybody ???

Abramelin has explained why he is more offline and I am enjoying summer, that has finally started here. Had a great sailing weekend near Enkhuizen and Medemblik and am in central Germany now, where most old farms still have a wagonwheel and horse-shoe (open side up) on their wall for good luck.

I like your recent posts, ID, but don't have much to say about them for now (same for Puzzler-hers). Please don't hold back.

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This has nothing to do with a mother's belly or what's in it (that IS ridiculous, right?), it has to do with a 'bok' or 'bokje', a little buck or little goat.

No it's not ridiculous at all as I have shown (please see gtb.nl links), and it's BUKJA (buikje), not BOKJA.

How's Otharus doing?

Don't know.

Recently many old newspaper articles have been added onto his "Fryskednis" blog.

Here is one:

1871+07+15+de+tijd.jpg

It says that initially there was hardly any doubt about the manuscripts authenticity.

This is interesting too (apologies for those who don't read Dutch):

1934+02+17+Leeuwarder+Nieuwsblad.jpg

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This is interesting too (apologies for those who don't read Dutch):

Note: the second part of this article (published a few days later) was actually the one I ment. They can be downloaded with a better resolution on the FR blog.

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This video (in German language) is interesting and has many illustrations.

(I don't agree with all that is said.)

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http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/vogtland-volcanic-area.html

All about volcanoes in Germany (Twiskland), and there are pictures of the eruptions.

We might not know for sure if one of these is accountable for the description in the OLB but I don't really see why not.

Germany isn´t well know as a country with one of the youngest volcanic areas in middle Europe. In the Eifel region there are hundreds of former eruption centers with lava domes, calderas and cinder cones. There are the famouns Maare in western Eifel and probably one of the youngest and still dormant volcanoes: The caldera of Laacher See eruption 13000 years ago. There are still active mofetta at the adge of the lake that show that there is till an active magma chamber bewlow the Laacher See lake crater and a much bigger at below the Eifel region (see "Eifek Magma plume").

http://www.volcanodiscovery.com/germany.html

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