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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

The words may have existed in Fryan prior to them being adopted into other languages, such as Greek, when the Fryans lived there, they would have spread their language there and that's what the OLB is basically saying anyway.

The word cherke can also be Circe, a priestess in the Odyssey. This word is also an Old English word, circe, for church. The word and meaning (such as rulers house, domain of God/Goddess) eg: island of Circe - who actually lived in a mansion on the island, may have existed in North Europe - before it's usage as a Christian church from the Greeks.

The use of it in the OLB to mention Egypt having them, but they didn't have the idols in theirs, could also point to a usage prior to Christianity, since it's fairly obvious it's not meaning a Christian Church there.

I also agree with NO - that as it was copied out, more contemporary words may have been used.

And, for all we know the Fryans may not have been using an indigenous word, but rather, one that the Magy had used themselves, in describing the 'lords house' they worshipped in.

There are TOO MANY words in the OLB pointing to a Christian influence.

And I hope I do not have to repeat those words (and names).

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I have another one (this thread is mainly about wordfk and not about proof of anything, so enjoy):

MAGIAR.

The name of the most notorous opponents of the Fryans (I learned to love these politically UNcorrect people, lol) in the OLB.

Now Google Translate "Magiar/Magyar/Magjar", or go to the Dutch etymology site :

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/maag1

It means "kin" or "kindred" in Old Norse, "magr" (in Dutch: "verwanten").

Now what does that tell us?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I would if i could read your language Knul , and i will go back and check but i am sure the copy of Oera Linda i read , said the second book was a family bible .

is the worp book translated into English anywhere on the net do you know Knul? i would be interested in reading it if so .

If you can read and understand the language used in the OLB, you can read and understand Dutch.

It is not that different at all, and it should be no surprise it isn't.

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I have another one (this thread is mainly about wordfk and not about proof of anything, so enjoy):

MAGIAR.

The name of the most notorous opponents of the Fryans (I learned to love these politically UNcorrect people, lol) in the OLB.

Now Google Translate "Magiar/Magyar/Magjar", or go to the Dutch etymology site :

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/maag1

It means "kin" or "kindred" in Old Norse, "magr" (in Dutch: "verwanten").

Now what does that tell us?

.

Many have assumed these "Magiar" from the OLB were none else but the historically known (Hungarian) "Magyar".

But that would mean that the European, Indo-Germanic Fryans were able to converse with these "Finno-Ugric" people from the moment they encountered them. Don't forget: the OLB version of the Magiar/Magyar were on the run (around 2100 BCE) for another tribe chasing them. so they didn't slowly but surely acquainted themselves with the Fryans, or visa versa.

Now it is known that the Magyar language is one of the most difficult languages to master, together with Euskara (Basque), so either these Fryans were geniuses and were able to learn the Magyar language within a day or a week, or the OLB Magiar/Magyar were an Indo-Germanic tribe and able to converse with the Fryans (maybe on base-level) and in that case the etymology of their name could be explained by using the etymology I posted (and quoted in this post).

Or this whole "Magiar" thing is nothing but bs, but you all already know what I think....

:rolleyes:

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If you can read and understand the language used in the OLB, you can read and understand Dutch.

It is not that different at all, and it should be no surprise it isn't.

I have been back to check the book i thought i read that ODL got a family bible with Oera Linda, but i cant find it ? either i am mistaken and have

remembered that wrong , or i read it somewhere else ? at the moment i am unsure .

I can read oera Linda ( or shall i say can correctly guess what the word is going to be saying , in English ), before i check the Sandbach translation

much easier than i can read ( or guess the meanings before checking ) a lot more than the often untranslated posts that Knul posts on here, and also his Blog.....i would also say that i can read the ( so called ) older parts of oera Linda somewhat easier than the end of the book.

It would be interesting to know if Puzz , another natural English speaker would say the same ?? .. that is my impression

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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I have been back to check the book i thought i read that ODL got a family bible with Oera Linda, but i cant find it ? either i am mistaken and have

remembered that wrong , or i read it somewhere else ? at the moment i am unsure .

I can read oera Linda ( or shall i say can correctly guess what the word is going to be saying , in English ), before i check the Sandbach translation

much easier than i can read ( or guess the meanings before checking ) a lot more than the often untranslated posts that Knul posts on here, and also his Blog.....i would also say that i can read the ( so called ) older parts of oera Linda somewhat easier than the end of the book.

It would be interesting to know if Puzz , another natural English speaker would say the same ?? .. that is my impression

You probably mean that COdL compared the Worp with the Statenbijbel (as thick as).

To understand the OLB completely one should know Dutch, English, Frisian, German and Latin plus various Dutch and Frisian dialects, (e.g. myk - made in Prov. Zeeland). I know one person who knew all of them: J.H. Halbertsma.

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If you can read and understand the language used in the OLB, you can read and understand Dutch.

It is not that different at all, and it should be no surprise it isn't.

To understand the OLB completely one should know Dutch, English, Frisian, German and Latin plus various Dutch and Frisian dialects, (e.g. myk - made in Prov. Zeeland). I know one person who knew all of them: J.H. Halbertsma.

You have the illusion that the language of the OLB is so easy to understand (for who has a basic knowledge of languages), but from the start you had a translation at hand and I doubt that you ever read und undersood it all without one.

Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880), who was one of the best and most famous linguists of his time, and who published about etymology, had so much trouble translating it, that he gave up after a few years (!), although he was very interested.

Read the following fragments from letters by Verwijs (my translation, original text below):

1) 1867 june 28 - to J.F. Jansen

"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

2) 1867 oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)

"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

3) 1867 oct. 16 - to OdL

"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

4) 1867 oct. 19 - to OdL

"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

5) 1868 nov. 21 - to OdL

"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

6) 1869 may 17 - to OdL

"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

7) 1869 nov. 11 - to OdL

"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

8) 1869 nov. 11 - to J. Winkler

"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern." [Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have neen old.]

~ ~ ~

Original fragments in dutch

1) "Vanmorgen heb ik een geheele speech gekopieerd die mij nog niet in allen deelen duidelijk is, maar die, zoo verre ik uit de kopie kon opmaken, allercurieust is."

2) "Zoo als ik zeide, was ik hoogelijk ingenomen met den vondst en deelde dien velen mijner vrienden mede. Een deel er van was zeer makkelijk verstaanbaar en, hoewel wat jonger kleur vertoonende, niet ongelijk aan de taal der oude Friesche Wetten uit de 13e en 14e eeuw. Doch er waren ook passages in, die ik niet verstond en nog niet versta en waarvoor nog al eenige naauwgezette studie zal noodig zijn, om ze te kunnen oplossen."

3) "U nu de vertaling van een los op zich zelf staand katern binnen kort te beloven, dat kan ik waarlijk niet, daar er zich moeilijkheden in voordoen, die misschien weken studie vereischen."

4) "'t Is zeker een meermalen overgeschreven handschrift van een Uwer voorvaders - en dan is Uwe familie zeer oud -, dat alleszins verdiend gekend te worden. [...] Door de belangrijkheid van het handschrift zal ook de eeuwenoude naam der Oera Linda's een glans verkrijgen, dien de oudste adelijke geslachten missen."

5) "En dan interesseert mij de zaak genoeg om ze eens goed aan te pakken."

6) "Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten."

7) "Eindelijk zend ik U het handschrift terug, waarbij Gij de vertaling evenwel nog met smart zult missen. [...] Hier en daar is de vertaling zeer gemakkelijk en kan van 't blad geschieden; maar op andere plaatsen komen weer moeilijkheden voor, die nog al tijd en studie vereischen. 'k Hoop evenwel U nu eerlang te kunnen helpen."

8) "Hier en daar kan men de vertaling zoo opschrijven, doch er schuilen ook nog al moeilijkheden en vreemde woorden in. Nu weet ik wel, zoo ik er eens mee begin, ik niet eerder rust voor ik die heb opgelost, en zoo zou ik er veel te veel tijd aan besteden. [...] De zaak interesseert mij nog al, en 't is mijn doel dan ook niet om er mijne handen geheel af te trekken. [...] Zoo'n etymologische kwestie valt nog al in mijn smaak, [...] 't Is vreemd, dat er enkele zeer oude woorden in schuilen, dat ook de vormen op een vorig tijdperk der taal wijzen, terwijl andere uitdrukkingen zoo heel nieuw klinken."

Edited by gestur

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You have the illusion that the language of the OLB is so easy to understand (for who has a basic knowledge of languages), but from the start you had a translation at hand and I doubt that you ever read und undersood it all without one.

<snip>

Assuming you are (also) addressing me, I will give you an answer... one I have already given you long ago.

Yes, I had a translation at hand, and that is how I learned OLBan. As soon as I got the hang of it, I did the translations on my own, as you WELL KNOW.

My translations were often different from Ottema's and Sandbach's, and I based those translations on my high-school knowledge of Middle/Old Dutch, and what I discovered online, using Old Frisian, Old Norse, and Old/Middle Dutch dictionaries. Dictionaries not available to both Ottema and Sandbach.

==

What is your idea (and I ask that to every participant in this thread) about that golden plate with a yet unknown language found near Namur (Namen), Belgium?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yes, I had a translation at hand, and that is how I learned OLBan. As soon as I got the hang of it, I did the translations on my own, as you WELL KNOW.

Which you could not have done without the existing translations.

My translations were often different from Ottema's and Sandbach's, and I based those translations on my high-school knowledge of Middle/Old Dutch, and what I discovered online, using Old Frisian, Old Norse, and Old/Middle Dutch dictionaries. Dictionaries not available to both Ottema and Sandbach.

Neither were those dictionaries available to your supposed creator(s).

:clap:

So you think you made some minor improvements here and there.

That doesn't mean the whole book can easily be understood for anyone with the basic knowlege that you have.

As for the similaries between Fryan and modern Dutch and Frisian;

There are also such similarities between Fryan and German and Scandic languages, as there are between those languages themselves. Some terms and expressions have survived in this, some in that language. What else could we expect from a real ancient text? You would be surprised how many Fryan words survived to-the-letter in Norse and Icelandic (while being very different from Dutch).

And again: your only 'proof' is that you can't imagine that some words are that old.

That is no valid evidence at all.

Many breakthroughs in science have happened in the past that people could not imagine before they were accepted reality.

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You have the illusion that the language of the OLB is so easy to understand (for who has a basic knowledge of languages), but from the start you had a translation at hand and I doubt that you ever read und undersood it all without one.

Eelco Verwijs (1830-1880), who was one of the best and most famous linguists of his time, and who published about etymology, had so much trouble translating it, that he gave up after a few years (!), although he was very interested.

Read the following fragments from letters by Verwijs (my translation, original text below):

1) 1867 june 28 - to J.F. Jansen

"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

2) 1867 oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)

"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

3) 1867 oct. 16 - to OdL

"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

4) 1867 oct. 19 - to OdL

"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

5) 1868 nov. 21 - to OdL

"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

6) 1869 may 17 - to OdL

"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

7) 1869 nov. 11 - to OdL

"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

8) 1869 nov. 11 - to J. Winkler

"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern." [Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have neen old.]

~ ~ ~

Original fragments in dutch

1) "Vanmorgen heb ik een geheele speech gekopieerd die mij nog niet in allen deelen duidelijk is, maar die, zoo verre ik uit de kopie kon opmaken, allercurieust is."

2) "Zoo als ik zeide, was ik hoogelijk ingenomen met den vondst en deelde dien velen mijner vrienden mede. Een deel er van was zeer makkelijk verstaanbaar en, hoewel wat jonger kleur vertoonende, niet ongelijk aan de taal der oude Friesche Wetten uit de 13e en 14e eeuw. Doch er waren ook passages in, die ik niet verstond en nog niet versta en waarvoor nog al eenige naauwgezette studie zal noodig zijn, om ze te kunnen oplossen."

3) "U nu de vertaling van een los op zich zelf staand katern binnen kort te beloven, dat kan ik waarlijk niet, daar er zich moeilijkheden in voordoen, die misschien weken studie vereischen."

4) "'t Is zeker een meermalen overgeschreven handschrift van een Uwer voorvaders - en dan is Uwe familie zeer oud -, dat alleszins verdiend gekend te worden. [...] Door de belangrijkheid van het handschrift zal ook de eeuwenoude naam der Oera Linda's een glans verkrijgen, dien de oudste adelijke geslachten missen."

5) "En dan interesseert mij de zaak genoeg om ze eens goed aan te pakken."

6) "Dan hoop ik het geheel in mijne vacantie dezen zomer mee te nemen en mij dan aan de vertaling te zetten."

7) "Eindelijk zend ik U het handschrift terug, waarbij Gij de vertaling evenwel nog met smart zult missen. [...] Hier en daar is de vertaling zeer gemakkelijk en kan van 't blad geschieden; maar op andere plaatsen komen weer moeilijkheden voor, die nog al tijd en studie vereischen. 'k Hoop evenwel U nu eerlang te kunnen helpen."

8) "Hier en daar kan men de vertaling zoo opschrijven, doch er schuilen ook nog al moeilijkheden en vreemde woorden in. Nu weet ik wel, zoo ik er eens mee begin, ik niet eerder rust voor ik die heb opgelost, en zoo zou ik er veel te veel tijd aan besteden. [...] De zaak interesseert mij nog al, en 't is mijn doel dan ook niet om er mijne handen geheel af te trekken. [...] Zoo'n etymologische kwestie valt nog al in mijn smaak, [...] 't Is vreemd, dat er enkele zeer oude woorden in schuilen, dat ook de vormen op een vorig tijdperk der taal wijzen, terwijl andere uitdrukkingen zoo heel nieuw klinken."

Unfortunately, you overlooked that he called the OLB nonsense of recent date, a joke etc. By the way, Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

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And again: your only 'proof' is that you can't imagine that some words are that old.

In fact words are thousands of years old, but that does not proof anything with regard to the authenticity of the OLB. May daily newspaper is full of such words.

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==

What is your idea (and I ask that to every participant in this thread) about that golden plate with a yet unknown language found near Namur (Namen), Belgium?

.

That is interesting, but with these stories I allready get stuck with the beginning:

- What is the actually text (signs is good enough, but I couldn't find it with first search)

- What and how do they know about dating (assumed 2th century AD?)

How can they talk about Germanic, Latin, Celt or Gaulish language if

1) text itself is unclear

2) what makes a text Germanic, Latin, Celt or Gaulish?

Place of find Baudecet as Buda-ke? Small Buda.

BTW the suffix -ken as in A-ken can mean the plural diminutive, meaning Aken as place of the small A's (A as water).

Environment of Auchy: good to check if the place was known for water sources or curing.

Edited by Van Gorp

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The Norse full-length video is ready.

Translation by Hans Olav Lien.

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Unfortunately, you overlooked that he called the OLB nonsense of recent date, a joke etc.

He didn't use those words. I challenge you to quote him. He got a good job in Leiden working on a big dictionary and he will have feared to waste his reputation, as public opinion already turned against the OLB. His new bosses in 'Holland' may not have liked the possible political implications of the book either.

By the way, Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler may have known something about dialects, but he wasn't able to do the job either.

It is simple psychology (as is the case with Verwijs): rather than admitting he was not able to translate it, it was easier to say he did not want to, because he believed it was fake.

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In fact words are thousands of years old, but that does not proof anything with regard to the authenticity of the OLB.

What you're saying is that those alleged 'modern' words don't prove that OLB is fake?

So do you have any 'evidence' left, or are you finally going to admit that it could be authentic after all?

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Verwijs was no Oldfrisian specialist and didn't know about dialects like Winkler did.

Winkler was a medical doctor (general practitioner) who was interested in dialects and Frisian history, but did he publish anything significant about Oldfrisian, Olddutch or Oldgerman?

Verwijs was more than a specialist Oldfrisian; he was a philologist.

He published about Old- (or 'middle'-) Dutch and etymology.

Winkler was (literally) an amateur compared to Verwijs.

That is why he was considered to be the main suspect of having created the whole OLB (by De Jong, 1926), or at least its language (by Winkler, Jensma).

Say, Knul, were your aleged creators of the OLB Oldfrisian specialists?

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He didn't use those words.

Edit: yes he said something like that much later, after public opinion had become very much anti-OLB.

The quotes I gave clearly show that he was most interested initially and for a long time he was in doubt.

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edit in bold:

That is why he (Verwijs) was considered to be the main suspect of having created the whole OLB (by De Jong, 1926), or at least its language (by Winkler, Jensma).

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You probably mean that COdL compared the Worp with the Statenbijbel (as thick as).

(e.g. myk - made in Prov. Zeeland).

What does this part you put in brackets refer to Knul ?? ....i have not come across myk - made before , what is it a dialect or something else ?

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Which you could not have done without the existing translations.

Neither were those dictionaries available to your supposed creator(s).

:clap:

As you know, dictionaries don't come falling from the blue skies, and people worked on them for many years on end (Halbertsma is a good example).

There where minor ones around or simple wordlists, but not the elaborate dictionaries we now (can) use.

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In fact words are thousands of years old, but that does not proof anything with regard to the authenticity of the OLB. Many daily newspaper is full of such words.

Words may be thousands of years old, but I guess you would agree that a word like "telephone" showing up in a supposedly ancient cuneiform text would be considered an anachronism and proof that text was fake. Well, unless you believe in time-travel, and somone from our time went back to Niniveh..

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That is interesting, but with these stories I allready get stuck with the beginning:

- What is the actually text (signs is good enough, but I couldn't find it with first search)

- What and how do they know about dating (assumed 2th century AD?)

How can they talk about Germanic, Latin, Celt or Gaulish language if

1) text itself is unclear

2) what makes a text Germanic, Latin, Celt or Gaulish?

Place of find Baudecet as Buda-ke? Small Buda.

BTW the suffix -ken as in A-ken can mean the plural diminutive, meaning Aken as place of the small A's (A as water).

Environment of Auchy: good to check if the place was known for water sources or curing.

I showed you the actual text in a former post (and I linked to the pdf I found it in).

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=227240&st=4845#entry5020672

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=227240&st=4845#entry5021511

The dating is based on organic material from the dig they found the plates in. It was also a (part) Roman settlement and no doubt typical Roman artifacts were found like coins which were typical for a certain period (like the head of some emperor).

1) I know, and I hoped someone else could find a better picture

2) well, the book about the Celts that I posted about had its doubts too...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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He didn't use those words. I challenge you to quote him. He got a good job in Leiden working on a big dictionary and he will have feared to waste his reputation, as public opinion already turned against the OLB. His new bosses in 'Holland' may not have liked the possible political implications of the book either.

Winkler may have known something about dialects, but he wasn't able to do the job either.

It is simple psychology (as is the case with Verwijs): rather than admitting he was not able to translate it, it was easier to say he did not want to, because he believed it was fake.

Brief van Eelco Verwijs aan Johan Winkler d.d. 13 december 1869.

Amice. [...] En nu over het Friesche Hs. Ook mij is dit tot dusverre nog een onoplosbaar raadsel. Telkens als ik het weer ter hand neem, word ik gezweept door een wind van meeningen. Er is veel in dat aan de echtheid bepaaldelijk doet twijfelen, en zoo het al oud is, dan is het toch zeker nooit zoo oud als de beide jaartallen [803 n.C. en 1256 n.C.] in het begin aanwijzen. Aan bedrog, aan eene mystificatie kan ik ook haast niet denken. De Heer Over de Linden is een ietwat ruw particulier, geplaatst aan de Rijkswerf te Helder. Hij [Cornelis over de Linden] heeft niets geen verstand van zijn beide Hss., het eerste de Worp van Thabor, een bepaald echt Hs. uit de XVde en XVIde eeuw. Hoe is dit bij hem verzeild ? Hij vertelde mij als jongen meermalen van zijn grootvader [Andries over de Linden] te hebben gehoord dat zij van Friesche afkomst waren, en dan liet de oude man zich enigszins geheimzinnig uit over papieren nog onder hem berustende. Ik heb geen reden om aan de geloofwaardigheid van dit verhaal te twijfelen, daar hij een ronde ruwe kerel is. Het aanwezig zijn van een Hs. van Worp maakt mij de zaak aannemelijker. Wat nu het Hs. in kwestie aangaat, omtrent het papier rees bij mij aanstonds twijfel. Het is formaat van Engelsch kwarto schrijfpapier, doch zeer geel geworden. Een watermerk heb ik nergens in gevonden dat mij een sleutel zou kunnen geven. 't Papier dient dus altijd nog eens onderzocht te worden. Ook het schrift is zeer ongewoon, en geheel afwijkend van alle middeleeuwsch schrift. De 20 eerste bladzijden heeft hij op vloeipapier doorgetrokken, en als proefje stuur ik er U een blad van. Op een der bladzijden is de sleutel van dat schrift, en dat komt mij ook verdacht voor. Verder zijn de cijfers boven de bladzijden arabische, en daardoor mij ook al verdacht. En dan de inhoud ! Die is zo dol, zoo onsamenhangend, dat ik daardoor ook telkens tot de gedachte kom: Zoo'n geschrift kan niet echt zijn. De taal is hier en daar oud; de vormen daar, maar dan komen er weer zulke moderne spreekwijzen in voor, dat het onmogelijk is dat die b.v. in de middeleeuwen zoo geschreven zijn. Doch ik durf er ook niet recht aan om het als een bedrog, als een knutselwerk van later tijd te beschouwen. 1. De aanwezigheid er bij van den codex van Worp; 2. Wie zou of in deze of in vorige eeuw in staat zijn geweest zoo'n literarisch bedrog te plegen ? De man zegt na den dood van een oom [= Hendrik Reuvers (1795-1845), eerste echtgenoot van Aafje over de Linden (1798-1849), uitdraagster] in 't bezit dezer reliquien gekomen te zijn, van wier bestaan hij niets wist. Zonder mij een bepaald oordeel aan te matigen, stel ik de vraag: kan ook onder de Westfriesche familie sedert langen tijd het een en ander berust hebben, dat een ouden oorsprong had ! Kan dit misschien ook telkens overgeschreven en weer overgeschreven zijn, en zoo allengs zijn oorspronkelijke zuiverheid verloren hebben. Doch dan zitten we nog altijd met den dwazen inhoud, die bijna ontwijfelbaar aan een lapwerk van lateren tijd doet denken. Maar wanneer is het dan ontstaan ? Ik weet het niet. 'k Zal zien het nog eens door te lezen voor ik met Kerstmis in Friesland kom, en hoop er dan nog eens met U over te praten. En nu, Amice, na groete t.t. (w.g.) Eelco Verwijs. Ik stuur er U ook het blad bij, waarop de sleutel van het schrift.

Brief van Eelco Verwijs aan Johan Winkler d.d. Leiden, 28 april 1870

Amice,

Al ben ik hoe langer zoo meer tot de overtuiging gekomen en geheel en al van Uwe zienswijze dat het Friesche Hs. onecht is en een lapwerk van lateren tijd, stelde Uw brief mij toch eenigermate teleur, daar ik nu niet recht weet wat aan den Heer Over de Linden te schrijven. ’t Geheel is mij nog een raadsel, zulken onzin had men in de Middeleeuwen niet kunnen schrijven, zoo’n samenraapsel niet bij elkaar kunnen flanzen. Maar ’t is mij dan nog altijd een even groot raadsel, wie zoo iets of vroeger of in den tegenwoordigen tijd bij elkaar heeft kunnen krijgen, wie zulk een werk zou hebben willen ondernemen; want ik beloof U, alleen het schrijven heeft veel tijd gekost. En toch ’t schrift moet nieuw zijn blijkens de inkt, die ik tot mijn spijt niet chemisch heb laten onderzoeken, evenmin als het papier, dat mij evenzeer jong voorkomt en expresselijk geel gemaakt, of bruin, om het een antiek waas te geven. Reeds de vlakken, en de aard ervan, gaven mij vroeger vermoeden tegen de echtheid, daar ik zoodanige vlakken nooit in onze Hss. Heb gezien. Doch hoe het zij, de draden kan ik nog maar niet in handen krijgen en ik weet niet op hoedanige wijze de zaak te zullen ontraadselen. Is het een lapwerk van den tegenwoordigen tijd, dan vermoed ik dat het een kunststuk is van een of ander mijner vijanden, die mij er heeft willen laten inloopen. Maar dan moet dat al een bittere vijand zijn, die zulk een bloedig werk zich heeft willen getroosten enkel en alleen om mij er danig in te laten loopen en het zoete der wraak in al zijn volheid te genieten. Niet wetende wie dat zou kunnen zijn, toen ik voor een jaar of 4 het eerst ermee in kennis werd gesteld, dacht ik toen nog meer aan een werk uit de vorige eeuw, toen men ook wel een Klaas Kolijn* fabriceerde, al pleitte het papier er tegen, en het excuus daarmede in verband op de eerste bladzijde. Zooals ik u vroeger schreef, had ik geen vermoeden van kwade trouw op den Heer Over de Linden en het Hs. Van den Worp ook in zijn bezit gaf dan ook de zaak een meer eerlijk voorkomen. Want dat is zoo onvervalst als goud. Is het niets anders dan een samenzwering tegen mij persoonlijk, dan is zeker de zaak zeer mooi gesponnen, daar men mij dat Hs. Heeft beloofd na afloop der vertaling. Doch wat nu den eigenaar te schrijven ? Ik ben gaarne bereid het geheele ding nog eens aandachtig te lezen, en U dan mijne bevindingen mede te deelen. Wordt dan mijne opinie aangaande de onechtheid bevestigd, dan …ja, wat dan ? Het lokaas van dat Hs. Van den Worp, dat mij is toegezegd, dat ik weder aan het Friesch Genootschap heb beloofd, zoo het de onkosten van het kopieeren wilde bekostigen, maakt voor mij de zaak moeilijk. Hoewel… ‘k zal dan niet aarzelen te vertellen hoe de vork in de steel zit, en wat ik er van denk. En dan zal 't ook best zijn den eigenaar te zeggen, dat de vertaling ons den tijd er aan te besteden niet waard is, daar wij bepaaldelijk bedrog vermoeden. Wat dunkt U daarvan ? 'k zal nu maar eens aan het lezen gaan en deel U mijne bevindingen nogmaals nader mee. Adieu, na groete t.t. (w.g. Eelco Verwijs).

Edited by Knul

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What you're saying is that those alleged 'modern' words don't prove that OLB is fake?

So do you have any 'evidence' left, or are you finally going to admit that it could be authentic after all?

Wrong. I did not say that.

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Words may be thousands of years old, but I guess you would agree that a word like "telephone" showing up in a supposedly ancient cuneiform text would be considered an anachronism and proof that text was fake. Well, unless you believe in time-travel, and somone from our time went back to Niniveh..

Even a word like telephone has its roots in ancient times, but I am sure Homer did not use a telephone.

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