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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Can it be a less personal please? Or is it just me having some problems with this kind of discussions ...

I can only say that I appreciate the input/analysis of Gestur as really to the point, no attention seeking of any kind.

Gestur dismisses scholarly literature as part of a conspiracy theory that academia is run by Jews, and other nonsense. I don't see how it cannot be personal when the opponents he debates he dismisses if they have a Jewish username or surname (see how he treated the poster Abremlin). Read the thread that was linked. Since I don't have a Jewish name, all Gestur has done in this thread is resort to other character assassinations, for example by bringing into the debate my credentials. The whole character assassination thing is a part of pseudo-history. Once again the following quote from Lefkowitz is most appropriate:

Hence, it is nearly futile to engage them in debate. Scholars have difficulty debating opponents such as Afrocentrists, catastrophists, creationists, [Insert: Oera-Lindists] or even anti-abortionists, because they expect their opponents to be civil and play by the rules of scholarly evidence. They mistakenly believe they have entered an arena where all sides are in quest of the same truth. What they are actually getting into is a street fight, where the goal is to defeat and humiliate your enemy. Their opponents don't follow traditional standards of evidence in their printed arguments and diatribes, so why expect them to be any different in a public debate? If you challenge their accuracy, they will question your integrity. If you ask for evidence, they will insult you. If you challenge their sources, you will be asked to prove the absolute certainty of your sources. You think the arena is an intellectual one where the combatants use wit and intelligence to score points, but while you are looking above your opponent's shoulders, he will kick you in the groin. You may have the evidence and the arguments on your side but your opponent doesn't care about the evidence and is not interested in your arguments. He already knows the truth.
Edited by OliverDSmith

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There is evidence of a relatively large scale disruption of cultural patterns which some scholars think may indicate an invasion (or at least a migration) into Southern Great Britain around the 12th century BC. This disruption was felt far beyond Britain, even beyond Europe, as most of the great Near Eastern empires collapsed (or experienced severe difficulties) and the Sea Peoples harried the entire Mediterranean basin around this time. Cremation was adopted as a burial practice, with cemeteries of urns containing cremated individuals appearing in the archaeological record. According to John T. Koch and others, the Celtic languages developed during this Late Bronze Age period in an intensely trading-networked culture called the Atlantic Bronze Age that included Britain, Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal,[8][9][10][11][12][13] but this stands in contrast to the more generally accepted view that Celtic origins lie with the Hallstatt culture.

http://en.wikipedia....nze_Age_Britain

That article also goes a long way in explaining the social strata of the day in Britain and how such a large trade industry must have been run by more than tribal chiefs, maybe not states but certainly a sophisticated, maritime trade culture who were able to conduct large scale commerce.

What we may not be seeing in the collapse of the Mediterranean Bronze Age era was caused by the collapse in Britain of the tin industry and with it came the end of the Bronze Age itself.

My Y-DNA haplogroup is in the Atlantic Bronze Age R1b group (Atlantic Modal group) my ancestors came from Cornwall and worked in mines, I find these movements of great interest. My mtDNA is actually K1b, a 'non-Jewish' European variant of haplogroup K.

Approximately 32% of people with Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry are in haplogroup K. This high percentage points to a genetic bottleneck occurring some 100 generations ago.[7] Ashkenazi mtDNA K clusters into three subclades seldom found in non-Jews: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. Thus it is possible to detect three individual female ancestors, who were thought to be from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool, whose descendants lived in Europe.[9] However recent studies suggest these clades originate from Western Europe.

The average of European K frequency is 5.6%. K appears to be highest in the Morbihan (17.5%) and Périgord-Limousin (15.3%) regions of France, and in Norway and Bulgaria (13.3%).[11] The level is 12.5% in Belgium, 11% in Georgia and 10% in Austria and Great Britain.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_K_(mtDNA)

I believe today's perceptions of history are already becoming illusions, created by masters of story-telling as political incentives to lineages of importance. Genetics will help decipher many of these hidden histories, if we allow ourselves to acknowledge them.

Related with the Minoan subject, following is also interesting.

"The ancient Minoan DNA was most similar to populations from western and northern Europe. The population showed particular genetic affinities with Bronze Age populations from Sardinia and Iberia and Neolithic samples from Scandinavia and France."

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-22527821

Did the storytellers of OLB had allready a clue?

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Related with the Minoan subject, following is also interesting.

"The ancient Minoan DNA was most similar to populations from western and northern Europe. The population showed particular genetic affinities with Bronze Age populations from Sardinia and Iberia and Neolithic samples from Scandinavia and France."

http://www.bbc.com/n...onment-22527821

Did the storytellers of OLB had allready a clue?

Yes, WESTERN AND NORTHERN EUROPE! How about that.

I actually have an old thread before those results that is about people from Spain and Western Europe colonizing Crete (and possibly Troy), maybe the OLB writers could see what I already could see, that it seems glaringly obvious that they did when you start investigating it - it is hard to prove though I won't deny that, although seeing the genetic results popping up is making me feel more and more confident I am right.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Gestur dismisses scholarly literature as part of a conspiracy theory that academia is run by Jews...

Where did I say or suggest that?

... the opponents he debates he dismisses if they have a Jewish username or surname (see how he treated the poster Abremlin).

I did not.

Someone else in that thread made fun of him and he asked for it. You totally missed the point.

But with all this you succesfully distracted from the main question:

Why is it so obvious that OLB is fake?

What is the alleged obvious evidence?

Edited by gestur

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But why believe in stuff that is completely false?

I could ask you the same.

tumblr_m1bpzukswg1qfbjkho1_1280.png

1477465_570981362970317_97342828_n.jpg

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Sequencing the mitochondrial genomes of these 39 remains revealed dynamic changes in DNA patterns over time. The team found that the genetic signatures of people from the Early Neolithic period were either rare or absent from modern populations.

And only about 19% of the Early Neolithic remains from Central Europe belonged to the H haplogroup.

But, from the Middle Neolithic onwards, DNA patterns more closely resembled those of people living in the area today, pointing to a major - and previously unrecognised - population upheaval around 4,000 BC.

Co-author Prof Alan Cooper, from the University of Adelaide in Australia, said: "What is intriguing is that the genetic markers of this first pan-European culture, which was clearly very successful, were then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago, and we don't know why.

"Something major happened, and the hunt is now on to find out what that was."

http://www.bbc.com/n...onment-22252099

Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

Hills, bow your heads; weep, ye streams and clouds. Yes. Schoonland (Scandinavia) blushes, an enslaved people tramples on your garment, O Frya.

Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juulfeest, they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind. All who could not flee away were killed

Edited by The Puzzler
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The Celtic speakers in ancient Britain had no recorded history or written inscriptions. Ogham is a late exception, however most scholars argue it had a Latin template.

The theory insular Celtic speakers or Britons were Trojans makes no sense even. Why would the Iliad and Odyssey be written in Greek, thousands of miles away and not British Celtic in Britain? Wilkins has some bizarre theory the British Celts are the Sea Peoples, but that doesn't explain anything. He just tries to bury the reader in a load of more nonsense, so they don't focus on specific flaws in his outlandish theory.

No sense? Priams name sounds very Insular P-Celtic to me, variation on the 'free' spelling, in relation to him being named Priam when he was released from bondage. There was no British Celtic written language to write it, they relied on oral memory form anyway, they didn't need to write it down, secondly, before Homer incorporated it, the story would have been very different, but with same general context, as he wrote it in a Greek perspective. It became a Greek story.

Since you have Thessaly as Atlantis, you should have no trouble getting your head around having a different place as the original.

As I said, I'm not totally convinced of Wilkins theory but I am convinced that even if was played out in the Aegean and the Troad, that the players were all originally from Western and Northern Europe who had settled throughout the Med earlier in the 2nd millennium BC.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Why would the Iliad and Odyssey be written in Greek, thousands of miles away and not British Celtic in Britain?

Why would these films have been made in English, the current lingua franca?

oddysey.jpgTroy.jpg

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Then why has none of the self-declared skeptics been able to reproduce this obvious evidence in this (two part) thread?

And why do you (as well as Abramelin) need demagoguery to make your point?

Why do YOU need it?

I have been accused (by you and Alewyn) of "having an agenda", as though the Dutch government pays me to redicule the OLB. Idiot.

Then you said the Dutch government did not want to discuss the OLB in the open, because the Dutch people might get terrified, or something similar stupid (about possible tsunamis, floods and all that).

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The "obvious evidence" is what I called the "French Connection".

If you conveniently forgot what that is about, I am willing to link you to the posts we discussed that connection.

Others can click on the oeralinda.blogspot.nl in my signature, and find out for themselves.

++

EDIT:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.nl/search/label/7-%20The%20French%20Connection%20-1806%20AD

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I have been accused (...) of "having an agenda"...

That was a joke and ages ago.

But let me take back "(as well as Abramelin)", because that was irrelevant.

Edited by gestur

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Then you said...

You take it out of context, but anyway that was in 2010, at the beginning of the first thread.

My views and ways of expressing them have much evolved since then.

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That was a joke and ages ago.

But let me take back "(as well as Abramelin)", because that was irrelevant.

That wasn't a joke at all - not from you and not from Alewyn - and you damn well know it.

But ok, let's forget about that bs. It's history. Done.

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You take it out of context, but anyway that was in 2010, at the beginning of the first thread.

My views and ways of expressing them have much evolved since then.

I am glad they did, and I hope for the better.

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Chronicles of Eri is another book that has been claimed to be a forgery, not "proved" to be a forgery ...

I started reading and, after 44 pages of introduction, am already hooked.

Most fascinating and providing many possible missing clues.

Thanks for the tip, No-Id-Ea!

Links to downloadable PDFs of the two parts (both 500+ pages):

part 1

part 2

Some memorable fragments (my underlining):

p. xxxiv

This captivating mode of recording the past, prevailed in Greece, nearly till Herodotus made his appearance. Hath Herodotus been honored with the title of "Father of history?" The glory hath been tarnished by the foul addition of "Shade between fact and fiction," both epithets bestowed in days of faint and glimmering beams of intellectual light, succeeding dreary ages of profound darkness, wherein, with a beastly submission, men suffered their understandings to be shrouded by the stupifying power of priestcraft, which cherished ignorance, the guarantee of its dominion, and detested knowledge, the foe to its various frauds, gloomy debaucheries, inhuman cruelties and manifold enormities, when a slight acquaintance with the language in which Greeks and Romans spoke and wrote, was accepted for wisdom, and travel and learning were held to be synonimous.

p. xl

Such is the history of Herodotus, wherefrom, in my judgment, is only to be inferred that he knew nothing of the subject, insomuch that one is almost tempted to accord with the censures of Josephus, in his reply to Apion, wherein speaking of the Greek historians he says, "that those most zealous to compose history were not so solicitous for the discovery of truth, altho' it was very easy for them to always make a profession of it, as to demonstrate that they could write well."
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Alewyn Raubenheimer has, in his book and in this thread, argued that Phrygians may have been Fryans and that the Faroe Islands may be the remains of Frisland.

I found something that may be of interest.

This is the so-called Phrygian cap:

"The Phrygian cap is a soft conical cap with the top pulled forward, associated in antiquity with the inhabitants of Phrygia, a region of central Anatolia."

262px-Bissen%2CParis%2CGlyptoteket.jpg

(Paris of Troy wearing a Phrygian cap)

And this is the cap of a Faröese boatman:

IMG_0002-1024x784.jpg

Source: Pen and pencil sketches of Faröe and Iceland. (1862) p.28

Edited by gestur
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Mitra also

BritishMuseumMithras.jpg

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One of the symbols associated with Mithras was the Phrygian cap which symbolised freedom and the pursuit of liberty.

If we should somehow consider the possibilty of a link between OLB's Frya's people, the Frisii, Vriezen and Phrygian cap:

it can than be considered to be in the words also:

Vriezen can then be interpreted as OLB describes Frya's people: those who are free (not enslaved by others or creeds, live freely).

De Vriezen = Die Vry Zyn

Fryas = Free's

Phrygian hat as symbol for liberty

Vrie = Vry = Phry = Fry = Free

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Got to give Abe the credit .... he is the one that put me on to it.....posting about it soon after i joined i think

Gestur go to his chronology at the end of the second book , chronicles of Galaag , and also his guess that the floods of Noe (Noah )

of Deucalion , and of Gyges were all floods of people , not water

Edited by NO-ID-EA

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Talking of floods, here's something I found in a list of Spanish words of Basque origin. http://en.wikipedia..../Iberian_origin

alud "avalanche (of snow)", from Basque elurte or uholde, olde "flood; avalanche" (Joan Corominas; DRAE); elurte is a blend of elur "snow" and lurte "landslide"[1] (see lurte below).

Made me think that Aldland might even relate to 'flooded land' rather than the obvious old land. It may have been a snow landslide or related to that rather than a deluge, which a snow landslide might make sense in the Himalayas, then the area was flooded by water with melting snow.

'lurte' and Spanish 'alud' is somewhat like 'flood'. The meaning you mentioned is like a flood of people, a landslide, an avalanche, as this word indicates too.

Armenian luanam "I wash; this word is in the flood family and the PIE word is supposedly a 'pl' word - pl, vl, fl - Armenian must have dropped the p,v or f or else it's come closest from Basque IF the root is from Basque.

Elam sounds a likely place to have this kind of name too. I look for this because Susa is mentioned in a relation link to Troy - through Laomedons son Tithonius who is sais to have founded Susa. Armenian Haik is imo very close to being a character that could be Hector and Haik kills Bel, the Mesopotamian hero, so there is a mythology connected with the interaction of both places.

Edited by The Puzzler

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So all you have read , and all you have contemplated after all the time of this thread , where do you think they originated Puz. i would be interested in where we all think they came from at this point in time of our investigations.not a final definition.just an interim guestimate ? .......i think from around Carmania , they were Scythian Mede/Persians from around the indus/ persian region ?......what are your thoughts Gestur/Vg/ i would ask Abe . cos i still think he is wondering ??

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So all you have read , and all you have contemplated after all the time of this thread , where do you think they originated Puz. i would be interested in where we all think they came from at this point in time of our investigations.not a final definition.just an interim guestimate ? .......i think from around Carmania , they were Scythian Mede/Persians from around the indus/ persian region ?......what are your thoughts Gestur/Vg/ i would ask Abe . cos i still think he is wondering ??

It's a tricky one. I guess that's why I'm still here. From all appearances it seems that Aldland is in the Himalayas.

Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders baerta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith; hja wêron thus fêr-of, thêrvmbe nêdon wi âk nên orloch

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars.

Findas folk lived all together in their mothers birth land, named aldland that is under the sea.

In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr (Cashmere) that is extraordinary.

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt, so that they do not dare to declare openly their creed. In this country all the priests are fat and rich. In their churches there are all kinds of monstrous images, many of them of gold. To the west of the Punjab are the Yren [iranians)

Edited by The Puzzler

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... what are your thoughts Gestur...

On 26 Dec. 2010, I said:

My feeling about "Atlantis" is this:

If, as OLB suggests, Atlant comes from ALD-LAND, meaning old land, than it would probably not have been called that before the 'big flood' and it can refer to any land that was lost in the 'big flood', so it does not need to have been the name of just one specific island or continent.

As for the old Frya's land...

I have the feeling that Alewyn's Frisland theory points in the right direction [FRISLAND, of which the Faröe Islands would be the remains].

(chapter 8, Survivors of the Great Tsunami)

And last October:

The ode to Frya ends with the land where she lived sinking and everything being lost, the people fled and resettled and named the land Texland.

Therefore - although in one text it is suggested that (an) "Aldland" had been in the east - it is more likely that the Fryan calendar was named after the " old land" somewhere northly of our current Texel (between England, Holland, Denmark and Norway).

(Sandbach p.19)

... Frya! The land from which she had risen was now a stream...

If indeed a huge tsunami (caused by a big comet hitting the Atlantic 40 km per sec.) was the cause, whole coastal areas will have been swept away.

IMO "old land" is just a way of referring to the "old (lost) world" from before a global disaster.

I may not have meant exactly the same (pointed to the same geographical location) for everyone.

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... as OLB describes Frya's people: those who are free (not enslaved by others or creeds, live freely).

Exactly.

And because the struggle between people who want to be free and others who want to enslave/ dominate them is very old, OLB can be interpreted as referring to various revolutions in which this was a theme:

- Abramelin thinks it is about the French revolution (end of 18th century)

- Jensma thinks it is about orthodox versus more liberal (free thinkers) protestantism (mid 19th century)

(I think it is what it says it is)

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This study (brand new video) may be extremely important in understanding the origin of the solar wheel (or Jol, Yule) symbol:

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