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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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I may not have meant exactly the same (pointed to the same geographical location) for everyone.
edit: "It may ..."

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So all you have read , and all you have contemplated after all the time of this thread , where do you think they originated Puz. i would be interested in where we all think they came from at this point in time of our investigations.not a final definition.just an interim guestimate ? .......i think from around Carmania , they were Scythian Mede/Persians from around the indus/ persian region ?......what are your thoughts Gestur/Vg/ i would ask Abe . cos i still think he is wondering ??

My opinion is somewhat like Puzzler and Gestur, not strange we still hang out here :-)

First for me Ald-Land seem to be a general name for all the former land that was in contrast with the newly formed land, before the bad time came.

"It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force."

Secondly, it seems the center of Finda's people is quite clearly described in the Punjab/Kashmir/Sind region and called also Aldland. With some indigineous Finda people in the Himalaya's being mouthshut by the Finda priests (not indigineous, from abroad, Aryans-Brahmans?). Now this Aldland is said to be submerged, but in our times I wonder where that then should be? The Indusvalley is not under water anymore, is OLB then talking about times when it was and from these times the people living there went eastward to Bengal and westward to Europe? Because that is what I read from OLB: Finda's people on the move for the flood and ultimately even taking empty places in Europe?

Big stretch though ... In that sense I could understand it if Finda's where living where now is the Black Sea. Finda's then as the Kazars?

Who are these Finda's anyway. Asians in general?

What strikes me is that OLB doesn't fall short in explaining most names, but for Finda I couldn't "find" any clear enough.

What is also striking is that "Finda" is often used for "to find" and when I look to the etymology of "vinden" (to find or to judge in Dutch, wat vind jij ervan?) there is much reference to the 'judgement" part. Finda's like to speak about laws, what can and can't, following their judgement and in their own advantage.

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When reflecting more on the Finda's taking empty spaces and described as having priests not indigineous of Indus valley:

Approx same story is narrated for the Magyars/Slaves taking empty places in the neighbouring lands of Twiskland, leading (blinding) the people with supersticious beliefs.

So a link Finda-Magyar-Brahmin priest class is not far.

Even with Magi's from Persia, but on the other hand is told that the Yren (Iranians) from origin are not supersticious at all like the Magyars.

In that view the priestclass seems to be narrated with different names linked together, as malevolent and dominant rulers over the common people from India over Persia over Slavonia to North and West Europe. Maybe the catastrophic circumstances made people more sensitive to the self proclaimed inter-preters with the natural forces.

Orthodox religion as the result to a desperate attempt to temper and passify the wild nature forces.

Same in our age: only now the wild and hardly controlable forces on society are more of an economical and human made nature -> people playing gods, Babylon is still alive and the modern priests are the financial conglomerates and internationals: every land to make offers, hard decisions just to pacify and please them by the rules they have set :-)

Edited by Van Gorp
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... hjara moders baerta-lând,

mit nôma ald-lând

that nw vnder-ne sê lêith

... their mothers birth land,

named aldland

that is under the sea.

I have the feeling that "mit nôma" (dutch: "met name") could also be read as the dutch expression "dat wil zeggen" (something like: "that is"). What do you think about this, Van Gorp?

Reading it this way, the author may not have meant to name the land, but rather points out that this birth-land no longer exists, because it is the old (former) land, now under the sea.

The meaning would then be something like this:

... their mothers birth land,

which was part of the lost world (old land)

that is now under the sea.

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My opinion is somewhat like Puzzler and Gestur, not strange we still hang out here :-)

First for me Ald-Land seem to be a general name for all the former land that was in contrast with the newly formed land, before the bad time came.

"It was not only in Finda’s land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force."

Secondly, it seems the center of Finda's people is quite clearly described in the Punjab/Kashmir/Sind region and called also Aldland. With some indigineous Finda people in the Himalaya's being mouthshut by the Finda priests (not indigineous, from abroad, Aryans-Brahmans?). Now this Aldland is said to be submerged, but in our times I wonder where that then should be? The Indusvalley is not under water anymore, is OLB then talking about times when it was and from these times the people living there went eastward to Bengal and westward to Europe? Because that is what I read from OLB: Finda's people on the move for the flood and ultimately even taking empty places in Europe?

Big stretch though ... In that sense I could understand it if Finda's where living where now is the Black Sea. Finda's then as the Kazars?

Who are these Finda's anyway. Asians in general?

What strikes me is that OLB doesn't fall short in explaining most names, but for Finda I couldn't "find" any clear enough.

What is also striking is that "Finda" is often used for "to find" and when I look to the etymology of "vinden" (to find or to judge in Dutch, wat vind jij ervan?) there is much reference to the 'judgement" part. Finda's like to speak about laws, what can and can't, following their judgement and in their own advantage.

I agree the Magi ruling class may have been separate from the people of Persians etc, as you said.

It seems like Finda's people are everywhere in the East and spread from there but her birth was said to be at the head of the Ganges and this is where all the Findas originally lived but they had spread out and were in Egypt and other places.

The priests however, who controlled everyone was not from that country. They had come in and created a new priest King order that did not allow the Hindoos to worship/follow Finda. Her laws were actually very good, but no one followed them as she didn't care to - equating to, the Hindoos wanted to but the fat priest Kings invented a new religion, a distorted Jessos one, that they used to get even richer and fatter.

The priest Kings may not have even been Finda's folk but been people who lived there with them, as controllers of them - much like they came in and did to the Fryans. (Alewyn goes into this in his book, but Id have to reread what he says to know what his opinion was.)

The priests might have originally been from Gutium in the Zagros Mountains, as they were the people who took over Babylon after the Akkadians - and may have built the 'Tower', as men from the East - since Gutians took over the Kingship at the time, co-incidently c. 2200BC (2154BC).

These Gutians were also known as Medes and have a relationship with being the Magi caste of the Persians.

There last King was named Tirigan, maybe he became Thyr, Tyr or Thor or all of them. Assyriologist Prof. Julius Oppert pegged them as Goths! I'm sure he had his reasons........

In the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia.

Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[12][13][14][15] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutium

These people became Finns didn't they, according to the OLB...? I don't really see them as being dark and Indian looking.

The whole thing is a bit odd though, with it being in the Himalayas - since Aldland is under the sea now.

What sea would that be? Also, the Fryan sailors know this place and call it Atland, how do they know of it if it's in Himalaya's?

So, I'm not totally convinced that Aldland is there but the context seems to say it, although some context doesn't...

The other thing is it says:

They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges.

Atland if at all, might be in the plains of the Ganges, in India and this part where it reaches the sea may have been flooded. This is the only place I can see that might make sense.

Finda sounds somewhat like India.

Uttarkhand is actually where the Ganges flows from (in the mountains) and is a very sacred area. It actually sounds a little like Atland - with Uttarkhand meaning north (of the) country.

It is often referred to as the "Land of the Gods" (Hindi: देवभूमि) due to the many holy Hindu temples and pilgrimage centres found throughout the state.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Uttarakhand

Finda should also be Ganga if the above is said to be, she is the Goddess who floated down the Ganges.

Dionysus is a God that may have been born in India and is referred as Indian or Ethiopian in many myths, either way, he's not Greek. His name suffix sounds a bit like Jessos - ysus

Dionysius Periegetes also wrote of the area: "Next come the wild tribes of the Peukalensians, beyond whom lie the seats of the Gangaridae, worshippers of Bacchus, ... the land here projects into the deep whirling ocean in steep precipices, over which the fowls of heaven in swift flight can hardly wing their way. "---Dionysius Periegetes (3rd century AD). http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Gangaridai This is not a strange concept:

The earliest discussions of mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803).[53]

Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, Robert M. Price, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels. They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

find 3, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Fund, richterliche Erkenntnis, Urteil; ne. finding (N.), judgement; Q.: W, S; E.: s. find-a; L.: Hh 27b, Hh 138a, Rh 740b

finda 40, find-a, afries., st. V. (3a): nhd. finden, antreffen, Urteil finden, Recht finden, weisen, erfinden; ne. find (V.), decide, invent; Vw.: s. bi-*, for-th-*, *in-, under-, ur-bek-, *ūt-; Hw.: s. fund-e-nisse; vgl. got. finþan*, an. finna, ae. findan, anfrk. findan, as. findan, ahd. findan; Q.: S, W, R, E, H, Jur; E.: germ. *fenþan, *finþan, st. V., gehen?, finden; idg. *pent-, V., treten, gehen, Pokorny 808; W.: nfries. fynne, V., finden; L.: Hh 27b, Rh 740b

A finding in court is a judgement, this could be a very old Frisian meaning, also in English and possibly what her name means but it is steeped in 'to go, path, pass' type words.

FIND

From Proto-Germanic *finþaną, from Proto-Indo-European *pent- (“to go, pass; path, bridge”). Cognate with Old English findan, Old Frisian finda, Old Saxon findan, Old Dutch findan, Old High German findan,

http://en.wiktionary...finna#Old_Norse

Edited by The Puzzler

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I have the feeling that "mit nôma" (dutch: "met name") could also be read as the dutch expression "dat wil zeggen" (something like: "that is"). What do you think about this, Van Gorp?

Reading it this way, the author may not have meant to name the land, but rather points out that this birth-land no longer exists, because it is the old (former) land, now under the sea.

The meaning would then be something like this:

... their mothers birth land,

which was part of the lost world (old land)

that is now under the sea.

Well Gestur, that was a reflection I also made to myself.

Contrary to what could be expected in the expression "met name", I in my own daily usage would not tend to use it to just give the 1-on-1 'official' name for something (or how people call it). For this I would use 'genoemd' or 'geheten' (OLB used frequently "hêten"): called.

Aldland trvch tha stjurar Atland hêten

I would rather interprete 'mit nôma' (met name), as a further descriptive explanation (translated 'in particular').

I agree the Magi ruling class may have been separate from the people of Persians etc, as you said.

It seems like Finda's people are everywhere in the East and spread from there but her birth was said to be at the head of the Ganges and this is where all the Findas originally lived but they had spread out and were in Egypt and other places.

The priests however, who controlled everyone was not from that country. They had come in and created a new priest King order that did not allow the Hindoos to worship/follow Finda. Her laws were actually very good, but no one followed them as she didn't care to - equating to, the Hindoos wanted to but the fat priest Kings invented a new religion, a distorted Jessos one, that they used to get even richer and fatter.

The priest Kings may not have even been Finda's folk but been people who lived there with them, as controllers of them - much like they came in and did to the Fryans. (Alewyn goes into this in his book, but Id have to reread what he says to know what his opinion was.)

The priests might have originally been from Gutium in the Zagros Mountains, as they were the people who took over Babylon after the Akkadians - and may have built the 'Tower', as men from the East - since Gutians took over the Kingship at the time, co-incidently c. 2200BC (2154BC).

These Gutians were also known as Medes and have a relationship with being the Magi caste of the Persians.

There last King was named Tirigan, maybe he became Thyr, Tyr or Thor or all of them. Assyriologist Prof. Julius Oppert pegged them as Goths! I'm sure he had his reasons........

In the late 19th-century, Assyriologist Julius Oppert sought to connect the Gutians of remote antiquity with the later Gutones (Goths), whom Ptolemy in 150 AD had known as the Guti, a tribe of Scandia.

Assyriologist Theophilus Pinches (1908), renowned archaeologist Leonard Woolley (1929) and Assyriologist Ignace Gelb (1944) the Gutians were pale skinned and blonde haired.[12][13][14][15] This identification of the Gutians as fair haired first came to light when Julius Oppert (1877) published a set of tablets he had discovered which described Gutian (and Subarian) slaves as namrum or namrûtum, meaning "light colored" or "fair-skinned".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutium

These people became Finns didn't they, according to the OLB...? I don't really see them as being dark and Indian looking.

The whole thing is a bit odd though, with it being in the Himalayas - since Aldland is under the sea now.

What sea would that be? Also, the Fryan sailors know this place and call it Atland, how do they know of it if it's in Himalaya's?

So, I'm not totally convinced that Aldland is there but the context seems to say it, although some context doesn't...

The other thing is it says:

They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges.

Atland if at all, might be in the plains of the Ganges, in India and this part where it reaches the sea may have been flooded. This is the only place I can see that might make sense.

Finda sounds somewhat like India.

Uttarkhand is actually where the Ganges flows from (in the mountains) and is a very sacred area. It actually sounds a little like Atland - with Uttarkhand meaning north (of the) country.

It is often referred to as the "Land of the Gods" (Hindi: देवभूमि) due to the many holy Hindu temples and pilgrimage centres found throughout the state.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Uttarakhand

Finda should also be Ganga if the above is said to be, she is the Goddess who floated down the Ganges.

Dionysus is a God that may have been born in India and is referred as Indian or Ethiopian in many myths, either way, he's not Greek. His name suffix sounds a bit like Jessos - ysus

Dionysius Periegetes also wrote of the area: "Next come the wild tribes of the Peukalensians, beyond whom lie the seats of the Gangaridae, worshippers of Bacchus, ... the land here projects into the deep whirling ocean in steep precipices, over which the fowls of heaven in swift flight can hardly wing their way. "---Dionysius Periegetes (3rd century AD). http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Gangaridai This is not a strange concept:

The earliest discussions of mythological parallels between Dionysus and the figure of the Christ in Christian theology can be traced to Friedrich Hölderlin, whose identification of Dionysus with Christ is most explicit in Brod und Wein (1800–1801) and Der Einzige (1801–1803).[53]

Modern scholars such as Martin Hengel, Barry Powell, Robert M. Price, and Peter Wick, among others, argue that Dionysian religion and Christianity have notable parallels. They point to the symbolism of wine and the importance it held in the mythology surrounding both Dionysus and Jesus Christ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus

find 3, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Fund, richterliche Erkenntnis, Urteil; ne. finding (N.), judgement; Q.: W, S; E.: s. find-a; L.: Hh 27b, Hh 138a, Rh 740b

finda 40, find-a, afries., st. V. (3a): nhd. finden, antreffen, Urteil finden, Recht finden, weisen, erfinden; ne. find (V.), decide, invent; Vw.: s. bi-*, for-th-*, *in-, under-, ur-bek-, *ūt-; Hw.: s. fund-e-nisse; vgl. got. finþan*, an. finna, ae. findan, anfrk. findan, as. findan, ahd. findan; Q.: S, W, R, E, H, Jur; E.: germ. *fenþan, *finþan, st. V., gehen?, finden; idg. *pent-, V., treten, gehen, Pokorny 808; W.: nfries. fynne, V., finden; L.: Hh 27b, Rh 740b

A finding in court is a judgement, this could be a very old Frisian meaning, also in English and possibly what her name means but it is steeped in 'to go, path, pass' type words.

FIND

From Proto-Germanic *finþaną, from Proto-Indo-European *pent- (“to go, pass; path, bridge”). Cognate with Old English findan, Old Frisian finda, Old Saxon findan, Old Dutch findan, Old High German findan,

http://en.wiktionary...finna#Old_Norse

Thnx for the extra info Puzzler.

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Also, since Finda is rather a mythological (archetypal), than a historical mother, it does not really make sense to treat the myth of where she came from as factual; some may have believed she came from the Himalayas, others from the Ganges, others from the old land that was lost.

East of Japan (Yonaguni?) and near the NW coast of India (Dwarka?), underwater cities were found.

I bet similar things may be discovered aroud the Faröe Islands.

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In other words:

The mythological Finda represents the antedeluvian ancestors of the 'yellow' people.

They probably did not descend from the Himalayas, nor did they come from Ganges-foam.

My guess is that they will have lived in coastal areas that were lost as a result of (suddenly) rising sealevels, or a huge tsunami (or both).

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I just dropped in to tell those who may be interested that I recently published a revised edition of “Survivors of the Great Tsunami” under the new title of “Chronicles from pre-Celtic Europe” on Amazon.com.

In addition to my other research, I also visited a number of archaeological sites and museums in the Netherlands, France and Germany last year.

Amongst the archaeological sites were De Hamert, Oss, Glauberg, Hochdorf, Heuneberg and the European Archaeological Park at Bliesbruck-Reinheim. The resemblance between archaeologists’ finds and reconstruction of West European Society (or Celtic Societies, as archaeologists incorrectly call them)) during the time of the Hallstatt Culture and the descriptions given in the Oera Linda Book is remarkable; especially Appolonia’s description of their architecture, lifestyle, textiles and jewellery. She wrote at the time of the Hallstatt culture which makes the resemblance between her book and the archaeologists’ finds so much more astonishing.

These insights were not available in the 19th century and destroy any argument that the OLB was written in the 19th century.

Another conclusion reached in my new book is that the Oera Linda Book was most likely kept up to date or added to right up to the latter part of the Frankish Empire. We know that the last Frisians to lose their independence to Charles the Great in AD 772 were those who held out in Groningen east of the Lauwers River. After 772 Charles turned his attention to the Saxons, the Frisians’ closest allies for millennia. The Frisian-Frankish Wars ended with the final Frisian uprising in AD 793. The Saxon-Frankish Wars lasted until 804 when the last rebellion of disaffected Saxon tribes was crushed.

In a bloody campaign, both Frisians and Saxons were forced to accept the Roman Catholic Faith. In only one incident, at the Massacre of Verden in AD 782, some 4500 captive Saxons were beheaded for practicing paganism after supposedly having converted to Roman Catholicism. As proof of Charles’ fanatic resolve to force the Saxons into Roman Catholicism, he issued a legal code in 785 AD, the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae, which included the death sentence for any Saxon who refused to convert from their native Germanic paganism to Christianity.

Liko ovira Linda’s letter of 803 AD, which came with the Oera Linda manuscript, was written shortly before the perceived, at the time, final demise of Frisian and Saxon independence at the hands of the Franks in 804 AD. The Frisian’s fight for freedom and their resistance to Christianity, in fact, continued for centuries afterwards. Liko ovira Linda, though, thought he saw the writing on the wall and his letter must be seen as a last desperate plea to his descendants to preserve some of their history, customs and religion. The reason for the missing sections from The Writings of Beden and at the end of the Oera Linda Book can, therefore, most likely be laid at the door of Charles the Great’s savage Christianization campaign against the Frisians and Saxons. In fact, it is very likely that Liko ovira Linda himself removed all references to the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire and the Franks from the Oera Linda Book. In the light of the Frisians’ and Saxons’ fanatical resistance against Roman Catholicism, it is most likely that these missing chapters contained derogatory references to, and incriminating evidence against certain individuals and/or associations. Had this information fallen into the wrong hands, Liko and his family would most likely have had to pay with their lives.

Perhaps this information will interest some. I, however, cannot get involved in lengthy debates again.

Edited by Alewyn
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Hi Halewijn, nice to hear from you again and the extra information.

Intermezzo

--------------

Sekur is hju forstine, hwand hju is immer thja forste wêst.

Interesting possible explanation of "Forest" and "Forestiers".

Vorstin (Forstine) is called like that because she took the "first" (voorste) place.

Forest as woodland could be called like that because it is just the hunting land of the Vorst (Veurste), Nobility (Voor-aanstaand).

As WIKI states: The exact origin of Medieval Latin foresta is obscure

-> by this explained as non Latin, thank you for the confirmation OLB :-)

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I like the puzzle piece on the book Alewyn and I'd like to read this, I might buy it when I can. Thanks for your post.

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Hi Halewijn, nice to hear from you again and the extra information.

Intermezzo

--------------

Sekur is hju forstine, hwand hju is immer thja forste wêst.

Interesting possible explanation of "Forest" and "Forestiers".

Vorstin (Forstine) is called like that because she took the "first" (voorste) place.

Forest as woodland could be called like that because it is just the hunting land of the Vorst (Veurste), Nobility (Voor-aanstaand).

As WIKI states: The exact origin of Medieval Latin foresta is obscure

-> by this explained as non Latin, thank you for the confirmation OLB :-)

I agree it seems possible forest may have come from 'hunting land of the Vorst.' - with Vorste being so named because they are princes, nobility (forsta) - ones that came first, before everyone else, most important.

Latin foris is 'outside', root of Germanic forst, apparently - literally meant 'out of doors' - but it's hard to see how first, forward comes from outside...

fersta* (1), fer-st-a*, afries., sw. M. (n): Vw.: s. for-st-a*

fersta (2) 2, fer-s-t-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. „fristen“, aufschieben; ne. prolong; Q.: W; E.: s. fer-s-t; L.: Hh 26a, Hh 156, Rh 735a

fersta (3), fer-st-a, afries., Adj. (Superl.): Vw.: s. fer-ist-a

forsta* 3, fersta* (1), for-st-a*, fer-st-a* (1), afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Fürst; ne. prince; Hw.: vgl. an. fyrstr, ae. fyrest,

ferista, feresta, ferosta, fersta (3), fer-ist-a, fer-est-a, fer-ost-a, fer-st-a (3), afries., Adj. (Superl.): nhd. vorderste, erste; ne. first (Adj.);

forest took over wald, woud etc, in English as used in the OLB, forest would not be a Frisian word, but may have been a term used as you said Van Gorp, taken from a Frisian meaning for these people who hunted in the wood.

sekur is more 'guilty' imo, rather than Truly - she was guilty of being a princess/forstine because she had always been a first/forsta (a leader/prince)

Its interesting for me as a non-Dutch/Frisian speaker to do the translation because some things like that (sekur as guilty) are very unexpected.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Making me think of Forseti, Fosite an apparent Frisian God, from Helioland and also thinking of that Folstar name next to Adela might even be a misspelling of Forsta...

Possible that Fosite and Poseidon share etymology. Poside

See wiki Forseti

Edited by The Puzzler

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Another conclusion reached in my new book is that the Oera Linda Book was most likely kept up to date or added to right up to the latter part of the Frankish Empire. We know that the last Frisians to lose their independence to Charles the Great in AD 772 were those who held out in Groningen east of the Lauwers River. After 772 Charles turned his attention to the Saxons, the Frisians’ closest allies for millennia. The Frisian-Frankish Wars ended with the final Frisian uprising in AD 793. The Saxon-Frankish Wars lasted until 804 when the last rebellion of disaffected Saxon tribes was crushed.

In a bloody campaign, both Frisians and Saxons were forced to accept the Roman Catholic Faith. In only one incident, at the Massacre of Verden in AD 782, some 4500 captive Saxons were beheaded for practicing paganism after supposedly having converted to Roman Catholicism. As proof of Charles’ fanatic resolve to force the Saxons into Roman Catholicism, he issued a legal code in 785 AD, the Capitulatio de partibus Saxoniae, which included the death sentence for any Saxon who refused to convert from their native Germanic paganism to Christianity.

Liko ovira Linda’s letter of 803 AD, which came with the Oera Linda manuscript, was written shortly before the perceived, at the time, final demise of Frisian and Saxon independence at the hands of the Franks in 804 AD. The Frisian’s fight for freedom and their resistance to Christianity, in fact, continued for centuries afterwards. Liko ovira Linda, though, thought he saw the writing on the wall and his letter must be seen as a last desperate plea to his descendants to preserve some of their history, customs and religion. The reason for the missing sections from The Writings of Beden and at the end of the Oera Linda Book can, therefore, most likely be laid at the door of Charles the Great’s savage Christianization campaign against the Frisians and Saxons. In fact, it is very likely that Liko ovira Linda himself removed all references to the Romans, the Holy Roman Empire and the Franks from the Oera Linda Book. In the light of the Frisians’ and Saxons’ fanatical resistance against Roman Catholicism, it is most likely that these missing chapters contained derogatory references to, and incriminating evidence against certain individuals and/or associations. Had this information fallen into the wrong hands, Liko and his family would most likely have had to pay with their lives.

Perhaps this information will interest some. I, however, cannot get involved in lengthy debates again.

You triggered again my interest in this period Alewyn.

What an utter bstrd he must have been, I wonder why so many people feel honoured if they can say they share roots whit this fellow, called Sjarel.

Ge-sjareld zijn, means having bad luck, or loosing the game. Now i know whence it came :-)

For the rest: Gonna delve more into the deportation of the Sax. From where to where has that been?

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the "4.2 ka BP Event"

Does anyone have an idea since when this event is being studied or defined as study object?

That must have been at least before 1867, no?

Seemingly they are still not sure how it all transpired (http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/axel/Site/pubs/4.21.pdf)

Maybe one could send the Aldland part as annex :-)

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Congratulations, Alewyn!

For now, I will only add some links:

... I recently published a revised edition of 'Survivors of the Great Tsunami'; under the new title of 'Chronicles from pre-Celtic Europe'; on Amazon.com.

41up1m663TL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

In addition to my other research, I also visited a number of archaeological sites and museums in the Netherlands, France and Germany last year.

Amongst the archaeological sites were

[burial mound] De Hamert, [some finds]

[burial mound] Oss,

['Keltic' archaeological park] Glauberg,

['Keltic' archaeological park] Hochdorf,

['Keltic' museum] Heuneberg and the

European Archaeological Park at Bliesbruck-Reinheim. [...]

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If indeed a huge tsunami (caused by a big comet hitting the Atlantic 40 km per sec.) was the cause, ...

Correction: caused by a major electric discharge

Must see (geology, history) for anyone who understands German:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71lgu1FiGoQ

Who doesn't understand German can start here:

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Also, since Finda is rather a mythological (archetypal), than a historical mother, it does not really make sense to treat the myth of where she came from as factual; some may have believed she came from the Himalayas, others from the Ganges, others from the old land that was lost.

East of Japan (Yonaguni?) and near the NW coast of India (Dwarka?), underwater cities were found.

I bet similar things may be discovered aroud the Faröe Islands.

I am in an internet cafe now, so I can't respond to everything.

I think - remembering what I said about the location of Aldland (near the Himalaya, Pamir Plateau, Tarim Basin or simply somewhere in Asia) - we might have to consider a real sunken land which has been considered the origin of many if not all Asian people (and then I mean the Malaysians, Chinese, Koreans, Japanese, Thai)). It sunk (slowly but surely?) after the last ice age, and it accopied a huge area; it is known as "Sundaland", the total area between Thailand and the New Guinee :

Sundaland_rivers_IceAge.gif.

Sundaland_migration_pattern.jpg

I posted quite a lot about it in other threads.

The problem is, of course, that is started sinking (volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis) many thousands of years before the date of the OLB disaster....

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The problem is, of course, that is started sinking (volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, tsunamis) many thousands of years before the date of the OLB disaster....

All depends on how accurate our current view is.

Interesting is that OLB places frost after the great flood.

In most modern interpretations you can read "in iceage times" sea level was lower and after melting of ice the flood came.

I'm not sure if that limited view says it all. Even our certainties about chronology of 1000s years is pretty thin based.

Much to be learned still ...

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the "4.2 ka BP Event"

Does anyone have an idea since when this event is being studied or defined as study object?

That must have been at least before 1867, no?

Seemingly they are still not sure how it all transpired (http://iprc.soest.ha...e/pubs/4.21.pdf)

Maybe one could send the Aldland part as annex :-)

If they studied it before 1867, 'they' should no doubt have stayed with "severe drought", and not made up a short period with erupting vulcanoes, submerging lands, rising mountains, rivers changing course, continent-wide forest fires, like the OLB does...

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All depends on how accurate our current view is.

Interesting is that OLB places frost after the great flood.

In most modern interpretations you can read "in iceage times" sea level was lower and after melting of ice the flood came.

I'm not sure if that limited view says it all. Even our certainties about chronology of 1000s years is pretty thin based.

Much to be learned still ...

(see bolded)

In Fomenko's prejudiced view, yes.

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If they studied it before 1867, 'they' should no doubt have stayed with "severe drought", and not made up a short period with erupting vulcanoes, submerging lands, rising mountains, rivers changing course, continent-wide forest fires, like the OLB does...

I couldn't find any references that old. Assuming there aren't (untill can be shown otherwise)

The picture seem to be that

- first OLB talks about a 4.2 ka BP event with all in the mix (fires ->drought), eruptions, earthquakes, flooding, ...

- than years later we start to 'discover' a 4.2 ka BP event that consists 'likely' of a big and sudden drought

And even if this event was broadly studdied in 1867 as a drought, it wouldn't be a smart idea for a convincing hoax on a pretended forgotten history to let it base on a ... flooding at the same time of the big drought :-) Then you would for sure take the same killer drought that is being presented on a plate by the accademics.

Certainly if everywhere else in the scripts the priests (and all orthodox quackery) are not really appreciated.

Why wouldn't we just play for one moment with the idea that this account of OLB can be closer to the truth than what we (or the accademical world) agree to know about the 4.2 ka BP event so far?

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Further on the subject:

https://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/flood-legends-literature-oera-linda-kumari-kandam-harrapa-rama-submergence-epic-sea-level-rise-end-of-pleistocene-atlantis-gibraltar-eastern-altantic-mediterranean-ancient-deluge-stories/

"

Flood Legends Literature Oera Linda Kumari Kandam Harrapa Rama Submergence Epic Sea Level Rise End of Pleistocene Atlantis Gibraltar Eastern Altantic Mediterranean Ancient Deluge Stories

Plato wrote of the sea level rise which consumed much of Greece and the western maritime empire, Atlantis, in his Critaeus and Timaeus (and in the Frisian Oera Linda), and ancient Vedic literature states that the bronze age Rama and Kumari Kandam kingdoms of India were submerged by the sea, when the Aryans came down from the north, and there are submerged megalithic ruins right where they should be found, according to the ancient history; off northwest India’s coast in the Gulfs of Kutch and Cambay (Rama empire), off southern India (Kumari Kandam), and in the case of Atlantis, near Gibraltar, off Tarifa, Cadiz, Huelva, and Tangiers, so the legends are proven true by these submerged ruins, and please see the big overview here http://genesisveracityfoundation.com.

Greek mycenaen submerged ruins are found off Platygiali, Astakos, Abdera, Elafonisos, and Samothrace, corrobarating Platos account, that they went under just before the days of the greek kings Cecrops and Erechtheus, so why don’t scientists look more into all these submerged bronze age ruins? It is because the mainstream scientists say the Ice Age ended circa 10000 B.C., and so, the end of the Ice Age sea level rise was about 8,000 years before those now submerged bronze age ruins (corrobarated by the legends and ancient histories) were consumed by the sea, when the Ice Age ended, actually circa 1500 B.C., not 10000 B.C. Look further into this under the various categories here, and download the free ebook Old Earth? Why Not!, to see how this later-than-advertised end of the Ice Age fits into the big picture."

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