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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Posted (edited)

In part I of this thread (see link in my signature) we have discussed those "wakstarre" of 'watch stars' that are mentioned in the OLB.

Freya and Finda returned to their watch stars, accept Lyda who had none to begin with.

Because I read like crazy (almost a book a day because no internet), I occasionally hit on something interesting in a book totally UNrelated to this topic.

Like the "Gospel of Judas" (discovered in 2006), of which a Dutch translation was published even before the English one. Well, what does Jesus say in this gnostic manuscript of around 180 CE... that we all shall return to our own stars in heaven, depending on whether we have been nice boys and girls. Or something.

The comment by a Dutch professor says that this idea came - almost literally - from Plato.

+++

EDIT:

Here's a link to Plato's idea:

http://books.google....n star"&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Freya and Finda returned to their watch stars, accept Lyda who had none to begin with.

It does not say in OLB that Frya and Lyda RE-turned to their stars and it does not say Lyda did not have one, Lyda's just is not mentioned.

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wâk-staere

Staere to watch from.

Kind of old watch tower? (see stairs).

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As I enter into this discussion I would like to make clear I see this entire thing as fantasy- very interesting fantasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltia

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Posted (edited)

It does not say in OLB that Frya and Lyda RE-turned to their stars and it does not say Lyda did not have one, Lyda's just is not mentioned.

Well, my point was, 'where might this idea of us (or the 'earth mothers') having a watch star have come from?'.

BTW:

Exalted Frya! When she had thus spoken the earth shook like the sea of Wr-alda. The ground of Flyland sunk beneath her feet, the air was dimmed by tears, and when they looked for their mother she was already risen to her watching star; then at length thunder burst from the clouds, and the lightning wrote upon the firmament “Watch!”

(Sandbach's translation)

So Frya had one, and she was busy ascending to it.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Well, my point was, 'where might this idea of us (or the 'earth mothers') having a watch star have come from?'.

Where did Plato have it from?

... she was already risen to her watching star; ...

So Frya had one, and she was busy ascending to it.

No.

Imagine I move to Iceland next week, not having been there before, not owning a house yet.

When I have arrived, bought a house and moved in, people can say I have already moved into my (new) house.

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In part I of this thread (see link in my signature) we have discussed those "wakstarre" of 'watch stars' that are mentioned in the OLB.

Freya and Finda returned to their watch stars, accept Lyda who had none to begin with.

Because I read like crazy (almost a book a day because no internet), I occasionally hit on something interesting in a book totally UNrelated to this topic.

Like the "Gospel of Judas" (discovered in 2006), of which a Dutch translation was published even before the English one. Well, what does Jesus say in this gnostic manuscript of around 180 CE... that we all shall return to our own stars in heaven, depending on whether we have been nice boys and girls. Or something.

The comment by a Dutch professor says that this idea came - almost literally - from Plato.

+++

EDIT:

Here's a link to Plato's idea:

http://books.google....n star"&f=false

.

This concept is way older than Plato, I know they think the Great Pyramid gallery directs the soul to the Pole Star.

The gods/goddesses were stars, planets, Venus etc, Pleiades, they lived within the embodiment of a star.

Van Gorp says watch tower and that's how I also see it, a kind of watchtower star, that they then watched us from.

Frya reminds me of Astraeia, who rises to the stars, becoming Libra constellation when mankind became corrupted beyond her laws.

She's often mixed up with Justice and her scales of righteousness, but she lies within Astraeias tale.

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Posted (edited)

wâk-staere

Staere to watch from.

Kind of old watch tower? (see stairs).

Stair star hmm

Stairway to heaven

Jacobs ladder

I wonder indeed is stair and star share a common root..

Then I also just realised to stare means to look at intently, to watch something..

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)

As I enter into this discussion I would like to make clear I see this entire thing as fantasy- very interesting fantasy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltia

Hi Flashman, welcome, we need some new blood here.

Love the Baltia mention, I'm a huge believer in the Goths (Gutones) taking a larger part in ancient history through the amber.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

stair (n.) dictionary.gif Old English stæger "stair, flight of steps, staircase," from Proto-Germanic *staigri (cognates: Middle Dutch stegher, Dutch steiger "a stair, step, quay, pier, scaffold;" German Steig "path," Old English stig "narrow path"), from PIE *steigh- "go, rise, stride, step, walk" (cognates: Greek steikhein "to go, march in order," stikhos "row, line, rank, verse;" Sanskrit stighnoti "mounts, rises, steps;" Old Church Slavonic stignati "to overtake," stigna "place;" Lithuanian staiga "suddenly;" Old Irish tiagaim "I walk;" Welsh taith "going, walk, way").

http://www.etymonlin....php?term=stair

to ascend, descend - is what stars do, they rise in the sky and descend away again...

star (n.) dictionary.gif Old English steorra "star," from Proto-Germanic *sterron, *sternon (cognates: Old Saxon sterro, Old Frisian stera, Dutch ster, Old High German sterro, German Stern, Old Norse stjarna, Swedish stjerna, Danish stierne, Gothic stairno).

This is from PIE *ster- (2) "star" (cognates: Sanskrit star-, Hittite shittar, Greek aster, astron, Latin stella, Breton sterenn, Welsh seren "star"), of uncertain connection to other roots. Some suggest it is from a root meaning "to strew, scatter." Buck and others doubt the old suggestion that it is a borrowing from Akkadian istar "venus." The source of the common Balto-Slavic word for "star" (Lithuanian žvaigžde, Old Church Slavonic zvezda, Polish gwiazda, Russian zvezda) is not explained.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

A root in the form of ascension seems more than logical to me - that stair and star are same root meaning ascend (in a path) originally.

Frya..?

Astraea, the celestial virgin, was the last of the immortals to live with humans during the Golden Age, one of the old Greek religion's five deteriorating Ages of Man.[2] According to Ovid, Astraea abandoned the earth during the Iron Age.[3] Fleeing from the new wickedness of humanity, she ascended to heaven to become the constellation Virgo the nearby constellation Libra reflected in her symbolic association with Justitia in Latin culture. In the Tarot, the 8th card, Justice, with a figure of Justitia, can thus be considered related to the figure of Astraea on historical iconographic grounds.

According to legend, Astraea will one day come back to Earth, bringing with her the return of the utopian Golden Age of which she was the ambassador.

http://en.wikipedia....raea_(mythology)

Edited by The Puzzler

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This concept is way older than Plato, I know they think the Great Pyramid gallery directs the soul to the Pole Star.

The gods/goddesses were stars, planets, Venus etc, Pleiades, they lived within the embodiment of a star.

Van Gorp says watch tower and that's how I also see it, a kind of watchtower star, that they then watched us from.

Frya reminds me of Astraeia, who rises to the stars, becoming Libra constellation when mankind became corrupted beyond her laws.

She's often mixed up with Justice and her scales of righteousness, but she lies within Astraeias tale.

This concept is way older than Plato, I know they think the Great Pyramid gallery directs the soul to the Pole Star.

The gods/goddesses were stars, planets, Venus etc, Pleiades, they lived within the embodiment of a star.

The concept may be older, but these gnostics were heavily influenced by Plato (amongst others), and lo and behold, he did indeed write about these stars. He olny didn't call them 'watch stars' (as far as I know).

-

OK, so the word 'watch star' might mean a star from which they kept an eye on us when they were not physically around. I can buy that.

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Doesn't star come from the PIE Austro meaning dawn or to shine?

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I've spent the last few months reading through the first thread. Currently on page 200. Now that I am joining the discussion, would you recommend I read this and the original (900 whopping pages), just the first thread, or just this thread?

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Posted (edited)

I've spent the last few months reading through the first thread. Currently on page 200. Now that I am joining the discussion, would you recommend I read this and the original (900 whopping pages), just the first thread, or just this thread?

Considering sometimes we can spend 3 pages on the meaning of one letter in a word...lol...you might find it quicker to get through than you think...

However seeing it's been 4 years odd since we started it, take your time, we're not going anywhere, it will be a really interesting read and we have all made great effort to debate our points as thoroughly as we can.

Have fun, maybe I'll spend a week myself re-reading it all. :tu:

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)

Doesn't star come from the PIE Austro meaning dawn or to shine?

PIE shine is aus, maybe not austro.

PIE root *aus seems a candidate for being the root of star - as aster - rather than PIE *ster - but aus as shine/dawn/Eos would mean that star is the same root as east (Germanic *aus)

staer/*ster does not contain the au sound first - so either it was dropped or ster may be the true root word. aster and ster may both even have got to star with different roots - aster almost seems like East Star (ie; Venus) whereas Germanic star may actually be from a word meaning ascend.

Often a basic word belongs to the Germanic vocab. English is not a fancy language and many descriptive words besides the basics have come in from other languages, French, Italian etc. 'shine' would have been lucky to have been in the Germanic language as a concept for star. 'go up' would have been. *aus went to East not star in German/English, basic concept of "toward the sunrise"/light/shine - this description is also given in the OLB as East when describing the land the Fryans lived.

east (n.) Old English east "east, easterly, eastward," from Proto-Germanic *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cognates: Old Frisian ast "east," aster "eastward," Dutch oost Old Saxon ost, Old High German ostan, German Ost, Old Norse austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- (1) "to shine," especially "dawn" (cognates: Sanskrit ushas "dawn;" Greek aurion "morning;" Old Irish usah, Lithuanian auszra "dawn;" Latin aurora "dawn," auster "south"), literally "to shine" (see aurora). http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Edited by The Puzzler

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PIE shine is aus, maybe not austro.

PIE root *aus seems a candidate for being the root of star - as aster - rather than PIE *ster - but aus as shine/dawn/Eos would mean that star is the same root as east (Germanic *aus)

staer/*ster does not contain the au sound first - so either it was dropped or ster may be the true root word. aster and ster may both even have got to star with different roots - aster almost seems like East Star (ie; Venus) whereas Germanic star may actually be from a word meaning ascend.

Often a basic word belongs to the Germanic vocab. English is not a fancy language and many descriptive words besides the basics have come in from other languages, French, Italian etc. 'shine' would have been lucky to have been in the Germanic language as a concept for star. 'go up' would have been. *aus went to East not star in German/English, basic concept of "toward the sunrise"/light/shine - this description is also given in the OLB as East when describing the land the Fryans lived.

east (n.) Old English east "east, easterly, eastward," from Proto-Germanic *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cognates: Old Frisian ast "east," aster "eastward," Dutch oost Old Saxon ost, Old High German ostan, German Ost, Old Norse austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- (1) "to shine," especially "dawn" (cognates: Sanskrit ushas "dawn;" Greek aurion "morning;" Old Irish usah, Lithuanian auszra "dawn;" Latin aurora "dawn," auster "south"), literally "to shine" (see aurora). http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Considering the number of Indo-European languages that sound similar to 'Aster', it seems more likely that Austro is the the root for Star (and the words equivalent to steir in Indo-European languages seem to different from star, making it seem unlikely they are related (Greek steikhein "to go, march in order," stikhos "row, line, rank, verse;" Sanskritstighnoti "mounts, rises, steps;" Old Church Slavonic stignati "to overtake," stigna "place;" Lithuanian staiga "suddenly;" Old Irish tiagaim "I walk;" Welsh taith "going)

To shine quite obviously is a Germanic word- consider Eostre, the Goddess of Dawn, and Shining, also known as Eos. It also seems likely she was goddess of the 'dawn star', giving further credence to the idea of Austro being the root for star.

Where does the OLB say they live towards the East? And you don't mean Aldland, right? Currently where I'm reading in the old thread you guys are fairly settled on the idea that Aldland was actually Finda's Land.

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Posted (edited)

Considering the number of Indo-European languages that sound similar to 'Aster', it seems more likely that Austro is the the root for Star (and the words equivalent to steir in Indo-European languages seem to different from star, making it seem unlikely they are related (Greek steikhein "to go, march in order," stikhos "row, line, rank, verse;" Sanskritstighnoti "mounts, rises, steps;" Old Church Slavonic stignati "to overtake," stigna "place;" Lithuanian staiga "suddenly;" Old Irish tiagaim "I walk;" Welsh taith "going)

To shine quite obviously is a Germanic word- consider Eostre, the Goddess of Dawn, and Shining, also known as Eos. It also seems likely she was goddess of the 'dawn star', giving further credence to the idea of Austro being the root for star.

Where does the OLB say they live towards the East? And you don't mean Aldland, right? Currently where I'm reading in the old thread you guys are fairly settled on the idea that Aldland was actually Finda's Land.

No, not that they live there, but in the description of their Fryan lands, they describe East as the direction of sunrise - meaning, that is the concept of East, 'ast' in those areas, and it doesn't mean star.

The word aus in forms even as Eos - means Dawn, light - not star. Referring to first light.

What I also meant was concepts, rather than words - meaning what concepts became words - first light, sunrise, east are Germanic for aus.

shine is in skin words, illuminate, lighter, appear, even shadow - meaning that the concept of shine in Germanic is not the same as the aus words.

It also seems possible that the word star comes from the meaning of being strewn about...

This is from PIE *ster- (2) "star" (cognates: Sanskrit star-, Hittite shittar, Greek aster, astron, Latin stella, Breton sterenn, Welsh seren "star"), of uncertain connection to other roots. Some suggest it is from a root meaning "to strew, scatter."

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=star

Maybe the words star and stair seem different but with 'mounts' and 'rises' as a meaning, I can easily see how they could be connected as these are terms used astronomically and describe a stars movement, which is more likely also imo, considering with the Nebra Disk and it's Pleiades depiction, the early Germanics knew star movement, which seems then also likely they would use a word describing the movement rather than the shininess of them.

Basque, seen as quite ancient, because the words are made up of ancient concepts - such as ilargi as month, which equates to 'dying light'/'the light has died' - that is, a full moon cycle ends/new moon=one month, sunrise equates to 'on the right' - things like that, the movements equate to the word and I look for this throughout other words and concepts - what is the concept that creates the original word...?

Edited by The Puzzler

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No, not that they live there, but in the description of their Fryan lands, they describe East as the direction of sunrise - meaning, that is the concept of East, 'ast' in those areas, and it doesn't mean star.

The word aus in forms even as Eos - means Dawn, light - not star. Referring to first light.

What I also meant was concepts, rather than words - meaning what concepts became words - first light, sunrise, east are Germanic for aus.

shine is in skin words, illuminate, lighter, appear, even shadow - meaning that the concept of shine in Germanic is not the same as the aus words.

It also seems possible that the word star comes from the meaning of being strewn about...

This is from PIE *ster- (2) "star" (cognates: Sanskrit star-, Hittite shittar, Greek aster, astron, Latin stella, Breton sterenn, Welsh seren "star"), of uncertain connection to other roots. Some suggest it is from a root meaning "to strew, scatter."

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=star

Maybe the words star and stair seem different but with 'mounts' and 'rises' as a meaning, I can easily see how they could be connected as these are terms used astronomically and describe a stars movement, which is more likely also imo, considering with the Nebra Disk and it's Pleiades depiction, the early Germanics knew star movement, which seems then also likely they would use a word describing the movement rather than the shininess of them.

Basque, seen as quite ancient, because the words are made up of ancient concepts - such as ilargi as month, which equates to 'dying light'/'the light has died' - that is, a full moon cycle ends/new moon=one month, sunrise equates to 'on the right' - things like that, the movements equate to the word and I look for this throughout other words and concepts - what is the concept that creates the original word...?

Concerning stair and star: I have an idea.

First I thought staer was to be linked with stei(g)er, stair coming from old dutch steiger.

So star meaning something as being high or going high.

But Puzzler made it clear to me: ster/star is just to be linked with star (fixed). Like in staren (to stare), you fix your eyes on something and the stars are to be stared on.

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On the Stare thing; Your grasping at straws.

And I haven't been able to find Ster mentioned as a PIE root,

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On the Stare thing; Your grasping at straws.

And I haven't been able to find Ster mentioned as a PIE root,

??? just look up 'stare'

stare (v.)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=stare

from PIE root *ster- (1) "strong, firm, stiff, rigid"

Dutch word 'sterk' means strong also.

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On the Stare thing; Your grasping at straws.

And I haven't been able to find Ster mentioned as a PIE root,

I don't believe I am, just yet.

star: This is from PIE *ster- (2) "star"

stare: from PIE root *ster- (1) "strong, firm, stiff, rigid"

Its just a question of if PIE *ster (2) is actually the same root as PIE *ster (1).

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Posted (edited)

. Some suggest it (star) is from a root meaning "to strew, scatter."

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

stir (v.) Old English styrian "to stir, move; rouse, agitate, incite, urge" (transitive and intransitive), from Proto-Germanic *sturjan (cognates: Middle Dutch stoeren, Dutch storen "to disturb," Old High German storan "to scatter, destroy," German stören "to disturb"), from PIE *(s)twer- (1) "to turn, whirl"

http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=stir

The PIE root *ster- is clearly seen in Frisian star and strong. I can many other words radiating, steer, strike... so, do these have a common concept deep down I wonder or truly so many same PIE root words to different meanings?

Stir is the 3rd one down here - destroy, as above bolded. Note circumflex rather than dash over the e - this has the same root as stir but not star. However, as seen from the first sentence in my post - allowance has to be made because none of it is hard and fast in etymology - that's why this is good fun and is really part of discovering if the OLB has any truth to it.

stēra (1) 1, stēr-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Stern (M.) (1); ne. star; Hw.: vgl. ahd. sterno; E.: germ. *sternō-, *sternōn, *sterna-, *sternan, sw. M. (n), Stern (M.) (1); s. idg. *ster- (5), *sterə-, *strē-, *sterh₃-, V., breiten, streuen, Pokorny 1029; W.: nfries. stear, stiere; W.: nnordfries. steer; L.: Hh 104a, Rh 1048a

stēra (2) 5, s-tēr-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. stärken; ne. strengthen; Vw.: s. ur-; Hw.: vgl. anfrk. *stōren, as. *storian?, *sturian?, ahd. stōren; E.: germ. *staurjan, sw. V., stören?; s. idg. *tu̯er- (1), *tur-, V., drehen, quirlen, wirbeln, bewegen, Pokorny 1100?; L.: Hh 104a, Rh 1048a

stêra 1 und häufiger, stê-r-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. zerstören; ne. destroy; Vw.: s. to-; Hw.: s. stō-r; vgl. an. stœra; Q.: R, H; E.: germ. *stōrjan, sw. V., vergrößern, verstärken; s. idg. *stāro-, Adj., groß, Pokorny 1004; vgl. idg. *stā-, *stə-, *steh₂-, *stah₂-, *stāu-, *stū̆-, V., stehen, stellen, Pokorny 1004; W.: nfries. stoaren, V., zerstören; W.: nnordfries. stiere, V., zerstören; L.: Hh 104a, Rh 1048a

sterk 7, ster-k, afries., Adj.: nhd. stark; ne. strong (Adj.); Vw.: s. -hê-d; Hw.: vgl. got. *starks, an. starkr, ae. stearc, anfrk. stark, as. stark, ahd. stark; Q.: W, H; E.: germ. *starku-, *starkuz, *starka-, *starkaz, Adj., steif, stark; s. idg. *ster- (1), *ter- (7), *sterə-, *terə-, *strē-, *trē-, *sterh₁-, *terh₁-, Adj., Sb., V., starr, steif, Stängel, starren, stolpern, fallen, stolzieren, Pokorny 1022; W.: nfries. sterck, Adj., stark; W.: saterl. sterc, Adj., stark; L.: Hh 104a, Rh 1048a

sterka 8, ster-k-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. stärken, befestigen; ne. strengthen, fortify

http://www.koeblerge...s/afries_s.html

Edited by The Puzzler

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Looking even closer it doesn't seem unreasonable to think steer is connected, as bull and toro deratives, to the same roots as ster, rigid, since they contrive another similar PIE word, that goes to Taurus/bull - *(s)taer

Back to stair - you get PIE *steigh

This one relates to the going up, ascend, a path, line, row, walk

Since a bull is actually called a steer and oxen generally walk along in rows, paths, even Taurus follows a path in the sky it seems possible that steer, bull comes from the same root as stair.

This is an early concept, as we see for the letter A the bull/ox is walking along, steering a path through the fields as it, most importantly, helps in soil cultivation for the agricultural revolution, which is possibly logical time to put these concepts into words.

Question...is *steigh another different PIE root or is it all actually coming from one...?

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Hmm. Interesting connection. I'll defer from further comment ,as I'm not a linguist, but to a layman, that sounds quite interesting. However, where are you getting path, line, row, or walk? Those seem quite unconnected to the idea of ascendance and climbing up.

I still maintain Dawn (Eos, Eostre, Aus, Austro) is the root for both Star and East. Firstly, because the DAWN STAR, Venus, was the most noticeable star in the sky. It would only make sense to name the other Stars after this jewel in the direction of Dawn. And linguists would agree with me.

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Posted (edited)

Hmm. Interesting connection. I'll defer from further comment ,as I'm not a linguist, but to a layman, that sounds quite interesting. However, where are you getting path, line, row, or walk? Those seem quite unconnected to the idea of ascendance and climbing up.

I still maintain Dawn (Eos, Eostre, Aus, Austro) is the root for both Star and East. Firstly, because the DAWN STAR, Venus, was the most noticeable star in the sky. It would only make sense to name the other Stars after this jewel in the direction of Dawn. And linguists would agree with me.

Linguists are generally going with the PIE root ster-

However it doesn't make it correct and I'm still looking at all angles.

Stair contains those word forms...

stair (n.)

Old English stæger "stair, flight of steps, staircase," from Proto-Germanic *staigri (cognates: Middle Dutch stegher, Dutch steiger "a stair, step, quay, pier, scaffold;" German Steig "path," Old English stig "narrow path"), from PIE *steigh- "go, rise, stride, step, walk" (cognates: Greek steikhein "to go, march in order," stikhos "row, line, rank, verse;" Sanskrit stighnoti "mounts, rises, steps;" Old Church Slavonic stignati "to overtake," stigna "place;" Lithuanian staiga "suddenly;" Old Irish tiagaim "I walk;" Welsh taith "going, walk, way"). Originally also a collective plural; stairs developed by late 14c.

(Trying to see if stair and star can share same root)

Edited by The Puzzler

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