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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Posted (edited)

Linguists are generally going with the PIE root ster-

However it doesn't make it correct and I'm still looking at all angles.

Stair contains those word forms...

stair (n.)

Old English stæger "stair, flight of steps, staircase," from Proto-Germanic *staigri (cognates: Middle Dutch stegher, Dutch steiger "a stair, step, quay, pier, scaffold;" German Steig "path," Old English stig "narrow path"), from PIE *steigh- "go, rise, stride, step, walk" (cognates: Greek steikhein "to go, march in order," stikhos "row, line, rank, verse;" Sanskrit stighnoti "mounts, rises, steps;" Old Church Slavonic stignati "to overtake," stigna "place;" Lithuanian staiga "suddenly;" Old Irish tiagaim "I walk;" Welsh taith "going, walk, way"). Originally also a collective plural; stairs developed by late 14c.

(Trying to see if stair and star can share same root)

Concerning the link steigh- and ster-, stair and star.

If stair is to be linked with the root steigh-er (to rise) and star is to be linked with ster (star, fixed) how could that be possible linked?

Well, a good trace can be that a steg (steeg in my language) is a path, but also a stick/pole (stek/staak in my language).

Only later on it is told that the meaning of rising is derived from the meaning path.

But there remains the second original meaning of a stick/pole linked with the root steigh.

Much can be seen in the meaning of 'stay' (steigh???).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stay

"An alternative etymology derives Old French estaye, estaie, from Old Frankish *staka (“stake, post”), from Proto-Germanic *stakô (“stake, bar, stick, pole”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)teg- (“rod, pole, stick”), making it cognate with Old English staca (“pin, stake”), Old English stician (“to stick, be placed, lie, remain fixed”). Cognate with Albanian shtagë (“a long stick, a pole”). More at stake, stick."

steeg: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/steeg1

but steg is also stug (stuck)

Edited by Van Gorp

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Posted (edited)

More contentwise, relation moder and wakstaer ...

In OLB there is mention of a gradual and geographical loss of 'modership' in several regions over time (till no moders are left?).

As the moder is watching over the people, could it be that this loss of modership in OLB is indicating at the gradual decline of a kind of matriarchal society on moral level, still felt today?

So matriarchy not as mere dominance of women over men in daily live, but moral fundaments of society based on opposite cornerstones as can be found in what we consider as typical male oriented society as western is also nowadays (individualism,competition, and dedication to achievement).

"That woman has some balls!", as if that should be considered as a compliment :-)

edit:

Nice coincidence then is that the word 'wakstaer' can also be read as 'waak-ster' (female guardian over the moral behaviour?)

Edited by Van Gorp

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Concerning the link steigh- and ster-, stair and star.

If stair is to be linked with the root steigh-er (to rise) and star is to be linked with ster (star, fixed) how could that be possible linked?

Well, a good trace can be that a steg (steeg in my language) is a path, but also a stick/pole (stek/staak in my language).

Only later on it is told that the meaning of rising is derived from the meaning path.

But there remains the second original meaning of a stick/pole linked with the root steigh.

Much can be seen in the meaning of 'stay' (steigh???).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stay

"An alternative etymology derives Old French estaye, estaie, from Old Frankish *staka (“stake, post”), from Proto-Germanic *stakô (“stake, bar, stick, pole”), from Proto-Indo-European *(s)teg- (“rod, pole, stick”), making it cognate with Old English staca (“pin, stake”), Old English stician (“to stick, be placed, lie, remain fixed”). Cognate with Albanian shtagë (“a long stick, a pole”). More at stake, stick."

steeg: http://www.etymologi...refwoord/steeg1

but steg is also stug (stuck)

And this one seems to make it complete:

steil (sterk hellend; star)

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/steil

Now we have them all three together:

steil/stella

sterk hellend/steiger/stair

ster/star

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Posted (edited)

And this one seems to make it complete:

steil (sterk hellend; star)

http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/steil

Now we have them all three together:

steil/stella

sterk hellend/steiger/stair

ster/star

stele - (standing block, slab) upright, to stand - from PIE stel-

From your .nl link: ohd. steigal ‘steil’ (nhd. steil); oe. stǣgel ‘steil’;

Made me think of a stag...

stag (n.) late 12c., probably from Old English stagga "a stag," from Proto-Germanic *stag-, from PIE *stegh- "to prick, sting" (see sting (v.)). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=stag&searchmode=none

stag, stick, stake, steigh, stele - all appear to me to come from concept of an upright thing that went to a point. Something that went up and also was pointy. Like a stags horn, a pointy stick, stake, a stele is tapered at the top usually, like an obelisk even, stair, goes up to a point - then the star: maybe 'to rise up to a point' as I showed before is actually the concept and one PIE root of them all.

Looking at staff it may even be connected to a support, pillar that held things up and rose to an apex.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

More contentwise, relation moder and wakstaer ...

In OLB there is mention of a gradual and geographical loss of 'modership' in several regions over time (till no moders are left?).

As the moder is watching over the people, could it be that this loss of modership in OLB is indicating at the gradual decline of a kind of matriarchal society on moral level, still felt today?

So matriarchy not as mere dominance of women over men in daily live, but moral fundaments of society based on opposite cornerstones as can be found in what we consider as typical male oriented society as western is also nowadays (individualism,competition, and dedication to achievement).

"That woman has some balls!", as if that should be considered as a compliment :-)

edit:

Nice coincidence then is that the word 'wakstaer' can also be read as 'waak-ster' (female guardian over the moral behaviour?)

This made me think that the moder in the wakstaer and her gradual decline could be associated with a star, or planet, that also declined, moved from her position so that the influence of her would be lessened.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Now, sturgeon. This word is a name of a fish but it's hard to find what they think it might come from. Maybe stir, scatter, which was also a thought they have for star.

A sturgeon fish may scatter but they are definitely rod like also.

What was interesting though is what it said about the possible origin of it... A lost pre-indo-European (PIE) tongue of Northern Europe.

c.1300, from Anglo-French sturgeon, Old French esturjon, from Frankish *sturjo- or another Germanic source, from Proto-Germanic *sturjon- (cognates: Old High German sturio "sturgeon," Old English styria). Cognate with Lithuanian ersketras, Russian osetr "sturgeon;" the whole group is of obscure origin, perhaps from a lost pre-Indo-European tongue of northern Europe, or from the root of stir (v.). Medieval Latin sturio, Italian storione, Spanish esturion are Germanic loan-words.

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A new etymology for the Dutch-German-Scandinavian words for baptism - to baptize.

doop, dopen - Dutch

dåp, døpe - Norse

dop, döpa - Swedish

dåb, døbe - Danish

Taufe, taufen - German

English related words: tub, dibhole, dip, dope (and possibly also deep?)

dobbadopen.jpg

More detailed information here.

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A new etymology for the Dutch-German-Scandinavian words for baptism - to baptize.

doop, dopen - Dutch

dåp, døpe - Norse

dop, döpa - Swedish

dåb, døbe - Danish

Taufe, taufen - German

English related words: tub, dibhole, dip, dope (and possibly also deep?)

dobbadopen.jpg

More detailed information here.

Going from Frisian 'diphole' - the etymology is:

dip (v.) Old English dyppan "immerse, baptize by immersion," from Proto-Germanic *duppjan (cognates: Old Norse deypa "to dip," Danish døbe "to baptize," Old Frisian depa, Dutch dopen, German taufen, Gothic daupjan "to baptize"), related to Old English diepan "immerse, dip," and perhaps ultimately to deep. As a noun, from 1590s. Sense of "downward slope" is 1708. http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

What do you mean 'new' etymology? Do you suggest 'baptise' comes from same etymology?

bedoppen as dipped - dipped or synonym immersed could be used in the English versions, where buried and overwhelmed is.

baptize (v.) c.1300, from Old French batisier (11c.), from Latin baptizare, from Greek baptizein "immerse, dip in water," also figuratively, "be over one's head" (in debt, etc.), "to be soaked (in wine);" in Greek Christian usage, "baptize;" from baptein "to dip, steep, dye, color," from PIE root *gwabh- "to dip, sink." http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

deep (adj.) Old English deop "profound, awful, mysterious; serious, solemn; deepness, depth," deope (adv.), from Proto-Germanic *deupaz (cognates: Old Saxon diop, Old Frisian diap, Dutch diep, Old High German tiof, German tief, Old Norse djupr, Danish dyb, Swedish djup, Gothic diups "deep"), from PIE *dheub- "deep, hollow" (cognates: Lithuanian dubus "deep, hollow, Old Church Slavonic duno "bottom, foundation," Welsh dwfn "deep," Old Irish domun "world," via sense development from "bottom" to "foundation" to "earth" to "world"). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=deep&allowed_in_frame=0

Edited by The Puzzler

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What do you mean 'new' etymology? Do you suggest 'baptise' comes from same etymology?

What is new (as far as I know) is the relation to the verb DOBBA (to dig, delve), though the noun DOBBE (tub, dibhole, puddle).

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Official etymology often refers to "proto-germanic" (or PIE) as if this is/ was a real language.

In fact it is merely an academic reconstruction, partly based on assumptions that will be proven wrong as soon as OLB is accepted as authentic.

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I agree gestur.

If earth for example has a PIE root, where are the words that stem from it outside Germanic...? If the PIE homeland is outside Germanic territory I would expect to find all PIE words in other languages related to PIE. It might have a 'Proto-Germanic' root but it doesn't say that, nor does it give any examples of a word from PIE *er besides ones in Germanic languages. Greek is kthon/earth, it has a different root.

earth (n.)

Old English eorþe "ground, soil, dry land," also used (along with middangeard) for "the (material) world" (as opposed to the heavens or the underworld), from Proto-Germanic *ertho (cognates: Old Frisian erthe "earth," Old Saxon ertha, Old Norse jörð, Middle Dutch eerde, Dutch aarde, Old High German erda, German Erde, Gothic airþa), from PIE root *er- (2) "earth, ground" (cognates: Middle Irish -ert "earth"). The earth considered as a planet was so called from c.1400

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Edited by The Puzzler
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What is new (as far as I know) is the relation to the verb DOBBA (to dig, delve), though the noun DOBBE (tub, dibhole, puddle).

OK. I'll have a look.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I have no idea what this thread is about or why it's still around. All I saw in the original thread was:

Abramelin: "OMG, the Oera Linda Bo(o)k is a known hoax.

Just go to the Wiki page about that book, and you will know.

But any Dutch person with something resembling brains could have told you long ago; the etymology portrayed in that book is simply ridiculous.

You never heard of it before?? Well. I have mentioned it many times on this site in connection with Doggerland (sorry Spartan...)."

Has anyone yet to challenge this?

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the etymology portrayed in that book is simply ridiculous.

Can you give an example?

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Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct.

[...]

Varieties of LJUDWERD:

Ljuwert [hidde/16]; 1256 CE

Ljudwerd [liko/23]; 803 CE

Ljudwardja [113/25-26] ca. 300 BCE

Ljvdwérd [143/21] ca. 250 BCE

Ljvwrd [143/22] idem

Ljvwerde [206/11] ca. 50 BCE

zeekaart_tx2.jpg

Note the undepth southwest of Texel: "Lutjeswaard"

This may very well have been the old "Ljudwardja", before it was flooded and after which nowaday Leeuwarden (Ljouwert) may have been named.

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I have no idea what this thread is about or why it's still around. All I saw in the original thread was:

Abramelin: "OMG, the Oera Linda Bo(o)k is a known hoax.

Just go to the Wiki page about that book, and you will know.

But any Dutch person with something resembling brains could have told you long ago; the etymology portrayed in that book is simply ridiculous.

You never heard of it before?? Well. I have mentioned it many times on this site in connection with Doggerland (sorry Spartan...)."

Has anyone yet to challenge this?

Challenge it?

What do you think we've been doing here for 4 years....?

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My post was too scattered and confusing, will clean up and re-post.

Very observant gestur, to notice that bedobben meaning in OLB is same as dip etymology, which does not conform to officialness unless, as you have noted, the root for both is the same. What is that chart gestur, did you make that?

And if daubjan is an offshoot of dobba then the etymology of both should be the same.

So, dobbe/dobba words lie in DIB etymology - daubjan seems to lie in DIP etymology.

Question: Does DIB and DIP actually share a root meaning and same etymology?

It's hard to think they didn't. (Meaning imo could be a quick push in that creates a covering) DIB means to make a hole for plant by poking and DIP can relate to poking in something and it is covered (dipping a spring roll in sauce for example, or dipping into a pool, we are covered then, in water, as usual, even a wave pushes in quickly to cover things, flood, immersion,) I look for common concepts.

DIG gives us an insight possibly... (not used as dobben words in OLB but rather graven, delven words)

dig (v.) early 14c. (diggen), of uncertain origin, perhaps related to dike and ditch, either via Old French diguer (ultimately from a Germanic source), or directly from an unrecorded Old English word. Native words were deolfan (see delve), grafan (see grave (v.)).

http://www.etymonlin...ex.php?term=dig

Edited by The Puzzler

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I would certainly have warden rather than oorden.

I find ward one of the most interesting words of all.

ward (n.) Old English weard "a guarding, protection; watchman, sentry, keeper," from Proto-Germanic *wardaz "guard" (cognates: Old Saxon ward, Old Norse vörðr, Old High German wart), from PIE *war-o-, from root *wer- (4) "perceive, watch out for" (cognates: Latin vereri "to observe with awe, revere, respect, fear;" Greek ouros "a guard, watchman," and possibly horan "to see;" Hittite werite- "to see"). Used for administrative districts (at first in the sense of guardianship) from late 14c.; of hospital divisions from 1749. Meaning "minor under control of a guardian" is from early 15c. Ward-heeler is 1890, from heeler "loafer, one on the lookout for shady work" (1870s).

ward (v.) Old English weardian "to keep guard, watch, protect, preserve," from Proto-Germanic *wardon "to guard" (cognates: Old Saxon wardon, Old Norse varða "to guard," Old Frisian wardia, Middle Dutch waerden "to take care of," Old High German warten "to guard, look out for, expect," German warten "to wait, wait on, nurse, tend"), from PIE *war-o- (see ward (n.)). French garder, Italian guardare, Spanish guardar are Germanic loan-words. Meaning "to parry, to fend off" (now usually with off) is recorded from 1570s. Related: Warded; warding.

warden (n.) c.1200, "one who guards," from Old North French wardein, from Frankish *warding- (which became Old French guardenc), from Proto-Germanic *wardon "to watch, guard" (see ward (v.)). Meaning "governor of a prison" is recorded from c.1300.

I'd think WORD could be connected, particularly in Germanic when runes were seen to be protection and could 'ward off' harm... but it has another *proto word given - even WOOD imo is the same, particularly in Germanic/Celtic where the groves were places of protection and again, had the capability to ward off harm.

Edited by The Puzzler

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And if daubjan is an offshoot of dobba then the etymology of both should be the same.

So, dobbe/dobba words lie in DIB etymology - daubjan seems to lie in DIP etymology.

Question: Does DIB and DIP actually share a root meaning and same etymology?

It's hard to think they didn't. (Meaning imo could be a quick push in that creates a covering) DIB means to make a hole for plant by poking and DIP can relate to poking in something and it is covered (dipping a spring roll in sauce for example, or dipping into a pool, we are covered then, in water, as usual, even a wave pushes in quickly to cover things, flood, immersion,) I look for common concepts.

I think there is also a connection with the word 'diep' (depth) and 'dippen'.

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Since WERA can also mean 'to defend' wera (3) 16, wara (4), wer-a, war-a (4), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. verteidigen, abwehren; ne. defend;

WERA must also lie in the same root as WARD

This whole family is in many basic Fryan/Frisian root words and commonly used in the language, it seems hard to imagine, as such, that it came in from anywhere else.

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I think there is also a connection with the word 'diep' (depth) and 'dippen'.

The etymology for deep is 'hollow, bottom' - again these seem to point to the making of a hollow - a hollow literally is surrounded, covered - there is no hollow without the covering. Something can make the hollow, a stick, spade, person, finger, and it's made quickly - dip in, immerse, like jab in a spade - it has created DEPTH by the surrounding covering left ie; the dirt - which seems incorporated into the overall context.

Can DIB, DIP and DEP words all connect to this core meaning? I think they can.

I also think hollow is one of the earliest concepts for the development of words of that nature (a cave literally) ie; something filled with nothing - and everything from hall and ball to bell and cell are offshoots of it.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The etymology for deep is 'hollow, bottom' - again these seem to point to the making of a hollow - a hollow literally is surrounded, covered - there is no hollow without the covering. Something can make the hollow, a stick, spade, person, finger, and it's made quickly - dip in, immerse, like jab in a spade - it has created DEPTH by the surrounding covering left ie; the dirt - which seems incorporated into the overall context.

Can DIB, DIP and DEP words all connect to this core meaning? I think they can.

I also think hollow is one of the earliest concepts for the development of words of that nature (a cave literally) ie; something filled with nothing - and everything from hall and ball to bell and cell are offshoots of it.

How wonderfull.

I was also looking at Gestur's website and saw the picture of a whirlpool (draaikolk -> thumpilo).

Don't know if it is meant to be related to the subject of 'dopen', but when you look at 'dompelen' one could have a connection in mind.

Even more if one knows that in origine temples were bathing places as well: tempel = dompel :-)

When you mentionned the cave in post above, the tomb wasn't that far in my mind also.

And then we are back at the burrying/covering.

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I was also looking at Gestur's website and saw the picture of a whirlpool (draaikolk -> thumpilo).

Don't know if it is meant to be related to the subject of 'dopen'...

drain2.JPG

See the hidden JOL (6-spoke wheel)? :-)

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Nice, ik nie zie :-)

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drain2.JPG

See the hidden JOL (6-spoke wheel)? :-)

:w00t:

I'll never look at the bathtub in quite the same way now....

Edited by The Puzzler

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