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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

How wonderfull.

I was also looking at Gestur's website and saw the picture of a whirlpool (draaikolk -> thumpilo).

Don't know if it is meant to be related to the subject of 'dopen', but when you look at 'dompelen' one could have a connection in mind.

Even more if one knows that in origine temples were bathing places as well: tempel = dompel :-)

When you mentionned the cave in post above, the tomb wasn't that far in my mind also.

And then we are back at the burrying/covering.

Tomb.... How about womb, tummy...again both hollows

Gk tymbos - burial mound - generally hollows with a body inside, covered, buried within, a tomb

Pretty much like a womb..

In a women's tummy

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I knew better than to involve myself in this thread.

Talk about going downhill.

Anyway:

"tomb - womb"

Unlikely:

Tomb:

c.1200, tumbe, early 14c. tomb, from Anglo-French tumbe and directly from Old French tombe "tomb, monument, tombstone" (12c.), from Late Latin tumba (also source of Italian tomba, Spanish tumba), from Greek tymbos "burial mound, cairn," generally "grave, tomb," perhaps from PIE root *teue- (2) "to swell" (see thigh). The final -b began to be silent about the time of the spelling shift (compare lamb, dumb). Modern French tombeau is from Vulgar Latin diminutive *tumbellus. The Tombs, slang for "New York City prison" is recorded from 1840.

Womb:

Old English wamb, womb "belly, bowels, heart, uterus," from Proto-Germanic *wambo (cognates: Old Norse vomb, Old Frisian wambe, Middle Dutch wamme, Dutch wam, Old High German wamba, German Wamme "belly, paunch," Gothic wamba "belly, womb," Old English umbor "child"), of unknown origin.

The "t" in tomb appears to be continuous through PIE, while the "w" in womb shows similar continuity.

online etymology dictionary

Harte

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Oldest known members of the Ovira Linda / Oera Linda / Over de Linden family:

OLstamboom.jpg

Puzzler: yes I made that chart about 'dobba'.

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"tomb - womb"

Unlikely:

To appreciate this topic, one needs a creative, open mind and a sense of humour (can't have one without the other).

That's why I like Puzzler's tomb-womb post.

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Oldest known members of the Ovira Linda / Oera Linda / Over de Linden family

That first chart was from ca. 6th C. BCE.

This one is from ca. 3rd. C. BCE:

OLstamboom2.jpg

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I knew better than to involve myself in this thread.

Talk about going downhill.

Anyway:

"tomb - womb"

Unlikely:

Tomb:

Womb:

The "t" in tomb appears to be continuous through PIE, while the "w" in womb shows similar continuity.

online etymology dictionary

Harte

Thank you for that opinion Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence, unfortunately, for you, I agree, quite unlikely.

Edited by The Puzzler

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To appreciate this topic, one needs a creative, open mind and a sense of humour (can't have one without the other).

Well put, obviously why there is only the few of us..

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Greek thermos "warm;" May be the key if womb and tomb were connected and we are unaware.

, of uncertain origin. On one guess it is from PIE/ . On another guess it is connected to

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=Warm&searchmode=none

Sayings like 'having a bun in the oven' align with what may have been an original early concept of pregnancy.

Going out on a limb, I just realised that with lyda, finda and Frya they were birthed from heat - different levels of it, "from warm stof"

Edited by The Puzzler

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In order to gain rich benefices, they conspire with foreign kings, who know that we are their greatest enemies, because we dare to speak to their people of liberty, rights, and the duties of princes. Therefore they seek to destroy all that we derive from our forefathers, and all that is left of our old customs.

Ah, my beloved ones! I have visited their courts! If Wr-alda permits it, and we do not shew ourselves strong to resist, they will altogether exterminate us.

Liko, surnamed OVER DE LINDA.

Written at Liudwert,

Anno Domini 803.

History around 803 is kinda interesting and a real turning point in the dynamics of Western Europe. Charlemagne has come to power and is sweeping through the old lands of Saxony and subduing Frisians in his Christian wake...

That year (782), in autumn, Widukind returned and led a new revolt. In response, at Verden in Lower Saxony, Charlemagne is recorded as having ordered the execution of 4,500 Saxon prisoners, known as the Massacre of Verden ("Verdener Blutgericht"). The killings triggered three years of renewed bloody warfare (783–785). During this war the Frisians were also finally subdued and a large part of their fleet was burned. The war ended with Widukind accepting baptism.

The last insurrection of the independent-minded people occurred in 804, more than thirty years after Charlemagne's first campaign against them. This time, the most restive of them, the Nordalbingians, found themselves effectively disempowered from rebellion for the time being. According to Einhard:

The war that had lasted so many years was at length ended by their acceding to the terms offered by the King; which were renunciation of their national religious customs and the worship of devils, acceptance of the sacraments of the Christian faith and religion, and union with the Franks to form one people.

and in an mmm bop it's gone.

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Will re-post.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Thread continued from: Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood (Original)

About the Baltic being a 'bad/angry sea'...

I think that is crap etymology.

The North Sea is much more dangerous than the Baltic ever was. In thousands of years many millions have drowned because the North Sea was 'angry'.

One of it's oldest (Frisian?) names was ""Hell". Many placenames in the Netherlands still have the word 'Hel' in them.

Even the OLB mentions floods that must have occurred in the North Sea area.

Btw, does the OLB ever give a name for the North Sea?

Not really, unless it is "Wralda's Sea", like I suggested a long time ago.

,

The etymology suits the reason it was named: (which I think may be more connected to the word below than bold.)

balu***, bal-u***, afries., Adj.: nhd. übel; ne. evil (Adj.); Vw.: s. -mun-d (1), -mun-d (2); Hw.: s. bal-u-mun-d; vgl. ae. bealu (2); E.: germ. *balwa-, *balwaz, Adj., übel, quälend; s. idg. *bʰeleu-, V., Adj., schlagen, kraftlos machen, schwach, krank, Pokorny 125; L.: Hh 5a, Rh 617b

After the great flood of which my father wrote an account, there came many Jutlanders and Letlanders out of the Baltic, or bad sea. They were driven down the Kattegat in their boats by the ice as far as the coast of Denmark, and there they remained.

When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there. When the earth was composed there came a duke of Lindasburgt with his people, and one maiden who cried everywhere, Magy is the cause of all the misery that we have suffered.

As far as I'm aware, Schoonland is Sweden and Sweden is surrounded by the Baltic Sea and the Kattegat and it sure sounded bad there at this time.

There, I've challenged Abe's crap etymology claim. Next.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Thank you for that opinion Supremely Educated Knower of Everything in Existence, unfortunately, for you, I agree, quite unlikely.

And thank you for adressing me by my full and well-deserved title.

Harte (S.E.K.E.E)

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Challenge it?

What do you think we've been doing here for 4 years....?

:-)

The poster didn't know what the thread was about, seemingly didn't bother to read further then the first page.

Some do like shortcuts :-)

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:-)

The poster didn't know what the thread was about, seemingly didn't bother to read further then the first page.

Some do like shortcuts :-)

True, shortcuts aren't my style though, I take the really long, hard and unconventional road...

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One more family chart: Friso

Through the marriages of his 4 children (and his two brothers in law who are not mentioned in the chart), part of the Fryan territories were (re-) united.

stamboom+friso.jpg

Note the repeated name-roots:

WIL-fréthe

WIL-jow

WIL-him

wich-HIRTE

swét-HIRTE

sjucht-HIRTE

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How wonderfull.

"hall and ball to bell and cell are offshoots of it."

A book on Cornish antiquities from 1754 said that the current term in the Cornish language for a cromlech was tolmen ("hole of stone")

the concept of a hole I think is very early - and derivatives of it radiate out to form many other words.

hol - hollow - hall - cell, cellar, - dol, tol - dollar,

cel transfers to being wrapped in the/a hole

cello, cellar, collar

then you get gh – ghol – khol words – gaol (English jail)– in fact etymology says gaol comes from Latin gabiola/cavity, the concept is the same but I'd question the etymology.(With my view on this, Latin would contain the IE roots of Fryan/Frisian from Fryans imparting their language onto them and Latin being the known language that we identify as where the 'later' words stem from)

hella – hot hole (Uralic)

Hallstat may be named from the mines/holes/halls and salt may even be connected.

bell, bull, bowl, ball - empty cavity/hollow - well

the surrounds of the cavity – wall, ceiling (celling)

underground you get a hole – for the dead

Valhalla – a hall for the dead, in a hole, a hollow

Edited by The Puzzler

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YIELD: From PIE *gheldh- "to pay," a root found only in Balto-Slavic and Germanic (and Old Church Slavonic žledo, Lithuanian geliuoti might be Germanic loan-words).

GOLD:

Old English gold, from Proto-Germanic *gulth- (cognates: Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Old High German gold, German Gold, Middle Dutch gout, Dutch goud, Old Norse gull, Danish guld, Gothic gulþ), from PIE root *ghel- (2) "to shine," with derivatives referring to bright materials and gold (compare Old Church Slavonic zlato, Russian zoloto, Sanskrit hiranyam, Old Persian daraniya-, Avestan zaranya- "gold;" see glass).

The Dutch guilder is said to come from the word for gold on wiki.

The word geld means to pay and is derived from a root shared with yield (ghelde) and NOT gold.(ghel)

I wonder then if the Dutch form of its money really comes from gold or is actually a Germanic word meaning to pay...?

The yield/ghelde root is found only in Baltic and Germanic languages.

Ghel is pegged as a PIE root for to shine.

It even says Dutch geld is related to ghelde=money (worth, pay, sacrifice) on the etymology website but doesn't say this is actually the same as the name guilder.

Wiki says related to gold.

Now, does gold actually stem from this Germanic term and not PIE *ghel=to shine

I'll tell you what else...

This PIE ghel can actually be found in another Germanic word reported by ancient writers and that is glass but when does this PIE root stem from?

Glaesum is what the Gutones call amber. Speaking a Gothic type language, it is closest to any language that branches from the proto-Germanic.

So, glaes is a very early English word BUT it doesn't mean shiny as such but SMOOTH. - glace

Now when something is very smooth, it shines, like glass or the sea. Glistens and shines

A new concept forms.

So smooth it's a shiny look - lustre"........this is literally glass -vitreous Latin for lustre means glass vitrum

So that's the context of glass, (smooth and lustrous) whether it be blue, gold or clear.

Amber is a prime example of a stone with a high resinous lustre, kind of opaque.

This is an absolute obvious word to name amber as glas as it really means, lustrous, smooth and therefore shiny. I have on an amber ring and it is exactly that, its smooth, lustrous and shiny from the smooth lustre.

-------------------

The word "glaucoma" comes from the Greek γλαύκωμα, "opacity of the crystalline lens

glauc here is literally the same as Germanic glaes that means lustre, opaque

That tells me that Greek words for light not only had lyk but could have also had glauk - the PIE stem is apparently ghel - can make the Greek word like ghlas - ghlaec - glauc - glauk

This also then verifies that the Germanic term COULD have been the core root for the Greek word that led to the Latin word etc...

Example - Gothic speakers traded amber - they called it glaes - it reaches Mycenaean Greece (found in graves) they call it the same word, why would they call it something else? Later Greeks get to elekrum. Mycenaean language would be the holder of the transfer into Greek of this word. The gh was dropped and you are left with laes/laec - Lacadamonians,(amber-traders?) led by Lyksos - all connected to light -- but as I showed, it could have easily been transferred into Greece from the Baltic from a word for amber to start with.

Edited by The Puzzler

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sheens and lustres always have an opaqueness to them, meaning the gl in glass - maybe ghel or gel - means smooth and non transparent, becoming yellow and gold words later when the meaning of unclear, dark, shady, opaque became entrenched.

How about ice, its not clear, it's opaque and quite lustrous, especially glaciers. ice - I could see could be in glaes.

From PIE root gel=cold..............??

There is so many ghel, gel, kel PIE roots it seems quite absurd imo.

IF the root is gel+aes to form glaes the word then is made up of 2 parts

ghel then may be the first stem root

aes immediately hits me from aesir - aes=gods

aes might be connected to the words for 'to see, perceive' - which again could make sense

ghel-aes would then mean shady perception or such - seeing shade/opacity = glass

Hell = dark place Hades - place of the Shades, the sprits/ghouls

Nyhellenia - new and clear/bright

I cannot find hel in Frisian for this context. What I can find is this:

hêl 27, hil, hê-l, hi-l, afries., Adj.: nhd. heil, unverletzt, unversehrt, ganz; ne. whole (Adj.); Hw.: vgl. got. hails (1), an. heill (2), ae. hāl, as. hêl (2), ahd. heil (1); Q.: H, E, W, S, B, R; E.: germ. *haila-, *hailaz, Adj., heil, gesund; idg. *kailo-, *kailu-, Adj., heil, unversehrt, Pokorny 520; s. idg. *kai- (1), *kaiu̯o-, *kaiu̯elo-, Adj., Adv., allein, Pokorny 519; W.: nfries. hel, Adj., heil, unverletzt; W.: saterl. hel, Adj., heil, unverletzt; W.: nnordfries. hiel, Adj., heil, unverletzt; L.: Hh 41 Rh 803b

hela* 3, hel-a*, afries., st. V. (4): nhd. „hehlen“, verhehlen; ne. conceal; Vw.: s. bi-, und-, ur-; Hw.: s. heler, un-hel-a-nde, un-for-hel-en; vgl. ae. helan, anfrk. *helan, as. helan, ahd. helan*; Q.: E, W; E.: germ. *helan, st. V., hehlen, verbergen, verstecken; idg. *k̑el- (4), V., bergen, verhüllen, Pokorny 553; W.: saterl. hela, V., hehlen, verhehlen; L.: Hh 41b, Rh 804a

hêla* (1) 3, hê-l-a*, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. heilen (V.) (1), vergüten, für heil erklären; ne. heal, repay

repay = the original word I started with: geld/to pay - a ghele root - officially different to gold

hela means conceal - as stated here over and over - shade - so this word quite obviously is connected to glass

But where's bright?

I imagine the word is 'whole', new and whole

was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum

hellingers is based in helde

helde (3) 7, hel-d-e, afries., F.: nhd. Neigung, Böschung, Deichböschung; ne. slope, dike-bank (probably related to held as container, a hold) held 2, hel-d, afries., N.: nhd. Behälter, Behältnis; ne. container;

whole, heal and repay appear to be connected in form.

The heelstone at Stonehenge is likely the stone that recorded the circuit of one whole revolution of the Sun (obviously I know the Sun doesn't move)

I fail to see quite frankly how these are not original early words/root-words in an original early language.

Edited by The Puzzler

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geld is also jeld in Frisian leading to jel and yel words in English - jelly, jello, yellow

jelda means to pay, compensate - that is actually the same as hela with circumflex - heela below further

Theres the jh - ghele *PIE

The middle one hela with NO circumflex is the one for glass, shade, opaque, conceal

It is possibly a different root and not connected to the other 2.

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Before I forget (I'm in an internet cafe now) I found something funny concerning that evil name in the OLB : Lumka-makia.

Here in the library they sell books that no one ever borrows, or books that are damaged one way or the other.

So, to add to my collection of dictionaries (and books about language in general), I bought a Sarnami-Dutch dictionary for one euro.

Just for fun (which most of this thread is about, fun with language), I tried to look up LUMKA and MAKIA.

Now Sarnami happens to be the Hindi spoken in Surinam by people whose ancestors came from India.

OK, so this is what I found:

LAMKA (also spelled LAMBA) = tall

MAKHIYA/MIKHIYA (not sure about the spelling, I didn't bring the dictionary with me) = important person, leader, boss

Maybe this LAMKA MIKHIYA/MAKHIYA means "tall boss", "big leader", "macho man"or something like that. And this as a name for the place where Wodin lived? Hmm....

If I find something in Chinese I'll let you all now.

:P

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I just thought of a word that would mean it would be gl not a gel word.

clay - it can be glae

clay (n.) dictionary.gif Old English clæg "stiff, sticky earth; clay," from Proto-Germanic *klaijaz (cognates: Old High German kliwa "bran," German Kleie, Old Frisian klai "clay," Old Saxon klei, Middle Dutch clei, Danish klæg "clay;" also Old English clæman, Old Norse kleima, Old High German kleiman "to cover with clay"), from PIE root *glei- "clay" (cognates: Greek gloios "sticky matter;" Latin gluten "glue;" Old Church Slavonic glina "clay," glenu "slime, mucus;" Old Irish glenim "I cleave, adhere").

That's a good word, in every IE language as gl and kl - gel or ghel or khel at all there.

hmmm

stiff, sticky, earth, clay

glue, slime, mucus - getting opaque

clod (n.) dictionary.gif "lump of earth or clay," Old English clod- (in clodhamer "the fieldfare," a kind of thrush, literally "field-goer"), from Proto-Germanic *kludda-, from PIE *gleu- (see clay).

Now they have gleu- but clay is from glei- ......?

gles 1 und häufiger, gle-s, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Glas; ne. glass (N.); Hw.: vgl. ae. glæs, - the same word recorded as being very ancient word for amber.

glīsa 2, glī-s-a, afries., st. V. (1): nhd. glänzen; ne. shine (V.); Hw.: vgl. as. glītan*, ahd. glīzan*; Q.: R, H; E.: s. germ. *glis-, sw. V., glänzen; vgl. idg. *g̑ʰlei-, V., glänzen, Pokorny 432; idg. *g̑ʰel- (1), *gʰel-?, *g̑ʰelə-, *g̑ʰlē-, *g̑ʰlō-, *g̑ʰlə-, V., Adj., glänzen, schimmern, gelb, grau, grün, blau, Pokorny 429; L.: Hh 139b, Rh 776b

glisia 1 und häufiger, gli-s-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. „gleißen“, verschwommen sehen; ne. see (V.) vaguely

Edited by The Puzzler

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coal (n.) Old English col "charcoal, live coal," from Proto-Germanic *kula(n) (cognates: Old Frisian kole, Middle Dutch cole, Dutch kool, Old High German chol, German Kohle, Old Norse kol), from PIE root *g(e)u-lo- "live coal" (cognates: Irish gual "coal"). Remember 'to conceal' = shade but here they want to create another PIE geulo word - ghel, khel, khol - coal

Abe, I agree Lumka-Makia is an evil word. :devil:

Thanks to your post I was still awake at 4am - lum lum luminosity, lumbar, loam, lame - what in ***** name were they making at Lumka-Makia?

Edited by The Puzzler

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So, lame seems to me the dominant LM word in Frisian - and this is used in abundance to describe Hephaestus and metal workers in general.

lamma* 11, lemma*, lam-m-a*, lem-m-a*, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. lähmen; ne. paralyse; Hw.: s. lam-ed; vgl. an. lemja, ae. lėmman, as. *lemmian?, ahd. lemmen*; Q.: R, H, E, B; E.: germ. *lamjan, sw. V., brechen, lähmen, lahm machen

Integrated steel mill in the Netherlands.

300px-Hoogovens.JPG

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and where is this illusive Lumka-Makia? Near the E-mude, and where's the E-mude????

OK, I know we have come up with a hundred answers but I seriously want to locate Lumka Makia.

It seems to me, Lumka Makia is in Denmark. Wodin is an Anglo-Saxon imo and hence why he's so ingrained in Anglo-Saxon mythology.

At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host.

The wind was fair, so they arrived immediately in Schoonland. When the northern brothers met together, Wodin divided his powerful army into three bodies

The E-mude (E river mouth) and Astflyland (Oostflyland) referred to here must also be in Denmark. They sail quite swiftly to Sweden (Schoonland) and the ensuing war where the Kattegat is named occurs.

Noticing Lutke in some Danish names, checked it: strangely co-incidental...

Lothario masc. proper name, Italian form of Old High German Hlothari, Hludher (whence German Luther, French Lothaire), literally "famous warrior," from Old High German lut (see loud) + heri "host, army"

Wodin divided his powerful army into three bodies

lut might be able to have been lum - since luminosity and lit/light/licht both mean similar, could be same... lutke = lumka.....? maybe

Then, it makes sense why this place was named so - maybe when the book was written Wodin had become famous as it says he does and so his home-town became renowned as a warrior maker - the name literally derives from Wodin's fame...? It might not be true Frisian either if it's a name given by people whose language had been changed since they actually didn't live in Frisia but rather East Denmark as Angles and Saxons - therefore the word is even stranger, never heard of it.

lumka might even be a spelling error - I cannot identify this word in any form in any etymology bank., even the umka ending is very odd and hard to pronounce and I cannot even think of another word that has this.

If anywhere, it could be around the area of Denmark that Angles inhabited. Near the Kattegat and adjacent to Sweden.

256px-Nordens_Historie_-_S%C3%B8nderjylland.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eider_(river)

Edited by The Puzzler
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OK, I know we have come up with a hundred answers but I seriously want to locate Lumka Makia.

I try with toponyms ...

Lumka Makia

As you already pointed"makia" throughout OLB means "to make".

Now what could be lumka?

I think the "ka" is the diminutive form (-ke).

Lum, loom, leem, ... to be connected with slickness. Making smooth.

Toponym-wise "Loo" could be connected with open space in a forest. Making smooth, so the light can come in -> lumen?

http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/lo1

See alse placenames Lommel, Lummen -> connected with loem or loo (swamp, open place).

It is known that cutting the trees gives problems with drainage.

So in short:

Lum-ke Makia: where there has been made a small open place in the forest?

Edited by Van Gorp
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