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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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Lothario masc. proper name, Italian form of Old High German Hlothari, Hludher (whence German Luther, French Lothaire), literally "famous warrior," from Old High German lut (see loud) + heri "host, army"

(...)

lut might be able to have been lum - since luminosity and lit/light/licht both mean similar, could be same... lutke = lumka.....?

(...)

so his home-town became renowned as a warrior maker

Lumka could indeed have been Lutka, but then it would make more sense imo to relate Lut to LJUD = people:

LJU(D) or LJV(D) in OLB

hljóð - icelandic

ljuda - swedish

lyd - norse, danish

lui, lieden - dutch

leute - german

=> Lumkamakja = made by (the) people?

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Thanks for those ideas guys.

As I went to bed, the word LOOM popped into my head and it wouldn't leave me

The verb seems more predominant. This is very common English - for something to LOOM large in the distance = ships or clouds for example.

.loom (n.)

weaving machine, Old English geloma "utensil, tool," from ge-, perfective prefix, + -loma, of unknown origin (compare Old English andloman (plural) "apparatus, furniture"). Originally "implement or tool of any kind" (as in heirloom); thus, "the penis" (c.1400-1600). Specific meaning "a machine in which yarn or thread is woven into fabric" is from c.1400.

loom (v.)

1540s, "to come into view largely and indistinctly," perhaps from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Swedish loma, East Frisian lomen "move slowly"), perhaps a variant from the root of lame (adj.). Early used also of ships moving up and down. Figurative use from 1590s. Related: Loomed; looming.

Note: also used very early for ships going up and down.

Has anyone here actually studied Angel/Angleland closely? I did, last night and if you're doing anything there, you are sailing up and down in that area.

Maybe from lame even, which must really mean, slow moving.

Make you move slow, again, I can imagine in the sailing area off Angel, you had no option but to sail slow out of there. Somewhere there in old Denmark is lumka makia, I'm sure.

A loom motion. Up and down slowly creating the result.

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Lumka could indeed have been Lutka, but then it would make more sense imo to relate Lut to LJUD = people:

LJU(D) or LJV(D) in OLB

hljóð - icelandic

ljuda - swedish

lyd - norse, danish

lui, lieden - dutch

leute - german

=> Lumkamakja = made by (the) people?

Yes, Lud would be loud/people.

I think I'm staying with LUM.

In fact, the OLB says that Liudwerd was built by the people and named as such and I agree this is the best root for that place name.

Lik tât melth heth, sâ send tha hâvalâsa maenniska to gvngen aend hâvon hûskes bvwad binna tha hringdik thêra burch. Thêrvmbe is thaet ronddêl nw Ljvdwerd hêten. Tha stjurar segath Ljvwrd, men thaet is wansprêke.

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Emden and Lemmer area could be where Wodin lives - he wouldn't then live in Denmark but just be in Denmark when he was picked up I guess.

Could the Dollart have been Eastflyland?

Looking at old maps of Emden area (I think I can read Lemmingum and Lemminger) but I can imagine the mouth of the Eems would actually be a Lumka-makia - a slow, sluggish area for sailing.

This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Frisiae-edited.jpg

Frisiae-edited.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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IN MY POST ABOVE I accidently wrote Emden and Lemmer area - I didn't mean Lemmer area, that is a mistake that I forgot to edit out, I am aware Lemmer is not near Emden.

I don't think its Lemmer because it doesn't seem North enough to fit the description properly - however I do think the name Lemmer is of the same reason named, the area is sluggish and hard to sail.

I love these old maps, I can study them for hours.

1677_Bernardus_Schotanus_Frisiae_Nicolai_Vischer.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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Its a bit confusing actually - the area on the second map that leads to Dokkum looks quite important and has what looks like ingresses, a possible Fly area and actually has a citadel called Soltcamp on the East side - check Google Earth, this area now looks flooded and I can't see any citadel area, hang on, its Zoutcamp on Google Earth. You can also compare C/Kollumerland.

Look how much further the water once came in!

The Dollart is not on that map but I think it (the ingress to Dokkum) appears more like an East Flyland on the older map than the Dollart.

I'm not exactly sure of the name of the river that leads to Dokkum from it but I can imagine it was important once and it does have a town called Ee along it.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Come on people, I see the guests and members here, someone, please make a post. Doesn't anyone have an interest in this or anything posted...?

I don't care what it is, agree, disagree, anything, Abe, come back, please.

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This is a really interesting article on Dokkum, and I found mention of an Ee river there,

On the Dokkummer Ee river the Dokkum stamping post is located, the point in the Elfstedentocht where you turn around.

Admiralty house

As a result of the Dokkumerdiep channel silting up, new times dawned. The Friesian Admiralty which had been based in Dokkum since 1596 from where it controlled the protection of trading voyages and the conduct of wars at sea, moved to Harlingen in 1646.

http://www.coast-ali...okkum-friesland

Destruction of the Admiralty archives

Few sources on the Frisian Admiralty survived. The entire archive on the Admiralty was destroyed in the large fire of 12 and 13 February 1771 in Harlingen, and many maps and documents relating to the history of Friesland were also lost. What little archive material remained was held in the Department of Navy at The Hague, until that too was destroyed by fire on 8 January 1844. Little is known on the great men of the Admiralty, due to a lack of surviving archival material. One example of such loss is described by historian Beucker Andreae, who studied the life of Admiral Auke Stellingwerf. About his search on the latter's baptismal records in what might have been the man's birthplace, Workum, he wrote:

A box had been kept, however, by the church guardians, holding old books and manuscripts, among which, according to an elderly inhabitant of the town, the baptismal records should have been present. But that box had some years ago been given to the
for safe-keeping, and there — since there was no lock on the lid — the female supervisor of the old people's home had cut up the books she discovered in the box for domestic use, as sewing patterns! And so it came about that, although the box is still there, the papers can no longer be found in them.

Dokkum was ideally situated to serve as a base for light ships for this purpose, the river Dokkumer Ee giving direct access to this area. However, during the 17th century the Dokkumer Ee began to silt up very seriously;

http://en.wikipedia....ty_of_Friesland

300px-Linieschip_Prins_Friso.jpg

The Friso, a ship of the Frisian Admiralty

Edited by The Puzzler

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These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

Minno was an ancient sea-king. He was a seer and a philosopher, and he gave laws to the Cretans. He was born at Lindaoord, and after all his wanderings he had the happiness to die at Lindahem.

Minna—this was the name of the mother—summoned all the sailors and the young men from Oostflyland and Denmark. From this expedition the history of Wodin sprang, which is inscribed on the citadels, and is here copied. At Aldergamude there lived an old sea-king whose name was Sterik, and whose deeds were famous. This old fellow had three nephews. Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Oostflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude

So, if Stavia is Staveren and that side is the Astflyland, then the area of Lemmer is probably Lumka Makia, but this is coming down way more than I imagined Wodin to be, since he's described as one of the Northern brothers and is picked up in Denmark.

But if Lumka makia is in the Astflyland, where is the Emude, which should be right next to Lemmer area? (It can't be the Eems at Emden)

I can see a small river coming from Sloten called Ee flu.

So, rather than a town name called Lumka Makia - it may be telling us this is the origin of the name of Lemmer, the area that was sluggish sailing and basically looped you around again - the lum maker - the lame maker

http://schotanus.us/...lai_Vischer.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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Where does anyone think Lindawrda (Lindaoorden) and Ljudgarde are? Im thinking somewhere between modern Molkwerum and Hindeloopen, looking at Google Earth it seems to fit an area inundated by sea where forest once was and also it would have to be near Stavoren (Stavia)...

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

This is an interesting archaeology site on West Frisia (around Medemblik) with finds dating to Bronze Age.

http://www.westfrisi...ws--events.html

1331899535.jpg

On either side of the tower is a house three hundred feet long, and twenty-one feet broad, and twenty-one feet high, besides the roof, which is round. All this is built of hard-baked bricks, and outside there is nothing else. The citadel is surrounded by a dyke, with a moat thirty-six feet broad and twenty-one feet deep. If one looks down from the tower, he sees the form of the Juul.

Edited by The Puzzler

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On the south side of the outer fortification is the Liudgaarde, enclosed by the great wood of lime-trees. Its shape is three-cornered, with the widest part outside, so that the sun may shine in it, for there are a great number of foreign trees and flowers brought by the seafarers.

The excavation map in my previous post is near Medemblik - the OLB text its describing inside the Luidgarde - but the area shown in the map is not in Astflyland so I'm not saying that map equals the same place being described at Luidgarde - however the description does match the layout of that archaeological plan if you read it and look at the map... so maybe this was a common layout.

The mention is of a THREE-CORNERED fortification - not a citadel shape as we see all over the place, like a star - but a triangle.

Look closely on Google Earth at Medemblik, which again, is near where the excavation map is from...

medemblik.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler

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One more before bed.

Thats an awesome labyrinth south of Medemblik as a by note.

OK, noticing the river or waterway inland from Staveren, one could assume that Lindaoorden was up it, I see de Oarden written and above that de Flie, indicating a fly route, astflyland area, where de Oarden is, it looks as if it's been heavily flooded.

Could Lindaoorden and lindgarde been up there I wonder...

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I try with toponyms ...

Lumka Makia

As you already pointed"makia" throughout OLB means "to make".

Now what could be lumka?

I think the "ka" is the diminutive form (-ke).

Lum, loom, leem, ... to be connected with slickness. Making smooth.

Toponym-wise "Loo" could be connected with open space in a forest. Making smooth, so the light can come in -> lumen?

http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/lo1

See alse placenames Lommel, Lummen -> connected with loem or loo (swamp, open place).

It is known that cutting the trees gives problems with drainage.

So in short:

Lum-ke Makia: where there has been made a small open place in the forest?

Loom or loo you mentioned as swamp, which I'd say is on the track to lam, lame,sluggish, slow, esp.of ships.

Smoothness you say, loo, lum, I'll check that out more too, both may be connected to lam somehow, as you have swamp, and I'd connect that with sluggish etc

That's good thinking about the light coming into the open space...

Edited by The Puzzler

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loo v. (bosch), Mnl. loo + Ohd. lôh (Mhd. lôch), Ags. léah (Eng. lea), On. ló (Skand. lo) + Skr. lokas = ruimte, Lat. lucus = woud, Lit laũkas = open veld. Het w. behoort bij den wortel van licht 1. en bet. eig. clairière.

So, what I notice here is a vary old concept, of the open field, see ruimte, open veld/field =spacious - Rome.

A gLAde

Glade:

late Middle English: of unknown origin; perhaps related to glad1 or gleam, with reference to the comparative brightness of a clearing (obsolete senses of glade include ‘a gleam of light’ and ‘a bright space between clouds’).

Just as I thought.

Open clearings do have those shafts of sunlight in them, particularly in denser woods with distinct glades - and groves, aways seeming a bit magical

A glade is basically equal to a shaft of light, seen in many ancient structure from newgrange to the great pyramid.

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loo v. (bosch), Mnl. loo + Ohd. lôh (Mhd. lôch), Ags. léah (Eng. lea), On. ló (Skand. lo) + Skr. lokas = ruimte, Lat. lucus = woud, Lit laũkas = open veld. Het w. behoort bij den wortel van licht 1. en bet. eig. clairière.

So, what I notice here is a vary old concept, of the open field, see ruimte, open veld/field =spacious - Rome.

A gLAde

Glade:

late Middle English: of unknown origin; perhaps related to glad1 or gleam, with reference to the comparative brightness of a clearing (obsolete senses of glade include ‘a gleam of light’ and ‘a bright space between clouds’).

Just as I thought.

Open clearings do have those shafts of sunlight in them, particularly in denser woods with distinct glades - and groves, aways seeming a bit magical

A glade is basically equal to a shaft of light, seen in many ancient structure from newgrange to the great pyramid.

Yes Puzzler, this seems also plausible to me.

I was checking roots like -glad (smooth in dutch, also happy), -glas and the like.

Bilderdijk attests that this all may come from a root verb "la-en".

http://books.google.be/books?id=AeRRAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl#v=onepage&q=la%C3%ABn&f=false

http://books.google.be/books?id=L-RRAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA193&lpg=PA193&dq=la%C3%ABn&source=bl&ots=vpu3PVCmZe&sig=cS_zU7DTqxemyl6KpI7bVTt8jMA&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=2fSqU7j_D-uV0QXM44DACQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=la%C3%ABn&f=false

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Yes Puzzler, this seems also plausible to me.

I was checking roots like -glad (smooth in dutch, also happy), -glas and the like.

Bilderdijk attests that this all may come from a root verb "la-en".

http://books.google....q=laën&f=false

http://books.google....q=laën&f=false

Too bad its a bit tricky for me to read.

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liodgarda 6, liōd-gard-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Familiengut; ne. family property; ÜG.: lat. terminus L 4, L 6; Hw.: vgl. ae. léodgeard; Q.: R, H, W, E, B, L 4, L 6; E.: s. liōd, gard-a; L.: Hh 66b, Hh 165, Rh 904a

On the south side of the outer fortification is the Liudgaarde, enclosed by the great wood of lime-trees.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Yes Puzzler, this seems also plausible to me.

I was checking roots like -glad (smooth in dutch, also happy), -glas and the like.

Bilderdijk attests that this all may come from a root verb "la-en".

http://books.google....q=laën&f=false

http://books.google....q=laën&f=false

glas, la-en - loom

loom (n.) weaving machine, Old English geloma "utensil, tool," from ge-, perfective prefix, + -loma, of unknown origin (compare Old English andloman (plural) "apparatus, furniture"). Originally "implement or tool of any kind" (as in heirloom); thus, "the penis" (c.1400-1600). Specific meaning "a machine in which yarn or thread is woven into fabric" is from c.1400.

loom (v.) 1540s, "to come into view largely and indistinctly," perhaps from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Swedish loma, East Frisian lomen "move slowly"), perhaps a variant from the root of lame (adj.). Early used also of ships moving up and down. Figurative use from 1590s. Related: Loomed; looming.

I noticed within the first link in the Dutch text after 'van laen' is 'vloeien', which I can tell is flow:

flow (v.) Old English flowan "to flow, stream, issue; become liquid, melt; abound, overflow" (class VII strong verb; past tense fleow, past participle flowen), from Proto-Germanic *flo- (cognates: Middle Dutch vloyen, Dutch vloeien "to flow," Old Norse floa "to deluge," Old High German flouwen "to rinse, wash"), probably from PIE *pleu- "flow, float" (see pluvial). The weak form predominated from 14c., but strong past participle flown is occasionally attested through 18c. Related: Flowed; flowing.

Says PIE *pleu - so what is your link saying? That its really fan/van+loeien/lowan/la-en? lawn, land, line... but not getting the m to n change really.

-------------------------------------------

How odd that my previous post just gave me a clue:

lime (n.3) "linden tree," 1620s, earlier line (c.1500), from Middle English lynde (early 14c.), from Old English lind "lime tree" (see linden). Klein suggests the change of -n- to -m- probably began in compounds whose second element began in a labial (such as line-bark, line-bast).

linden (n.) "the lime tree," 1570s, noun use of an adjective, "of linden wood," from Old English lind "linden" (n.), from Proto-Germanic *lindjo (cognates: Old Saxon linda, Old Norse lind, Old High German linta, German linde), probably from PIE *lent-o- "flexible" (see lithe); with reference to the tree's pliant bast. Compare Russian lutĭijó "forest of lime trees," Polish łęt "switch, twig," Lithuanian lenta "board, plank."

lithe (adj.) Old English liðe "soft, mild, gentle, meek," from Proto-Germanic *linthja- (cognates: Old Saxon lithi "soft, mild, gentle," Old High German lindi, German lind, Old Norse linr, with characteristic loss of "n" before "th" in English), from PIE root *lent- "flexible" (cognates: Latin lentus "flexible, pliant, slow," Sanskrit lithi).

lentus - slow - like lam - slow

Edited by The Puzzler

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Old English liðe "soft,

Tread softly, for here lies Adela

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela

!?

"tread softly" is a liberal translation of "don't walk too hastily" (Ne hlap navt to hastich)

Puzzler, I don't doubt your good intentions, but posts like this make me go hmmm.

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!?

"tread softly" is a liberal translation of "don't walk too hastily" (Ne hlap navt to hastich)

Puzzler, I don't doubt your good intentions, but posts like this make me go hmmm.

It was a bit tongue in cheek.

lithe meant soft

but lithe also went to linde

adela oera linda

so, to tread softly on Adelas grave is quite apt.

Now, the link was the one VG linked - it showed that lap (hlap?) is also a form of lithe - which means that hlap and softly may actually be the same root (in a roundabout way)

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which means that hlap and softly may actually be the same root (in a roundabout way)

HLAP is dutch loop (walk, run - pronounced as 'lope') from verb:

lopen - dutch (to walk - in Belgium: to run)

laufen - german (to walk)

hlaupa - icelandic (to run)

Note that the verb has remained most original in Icelandic.

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glas, la-en - loom

loom (n.) weaving machine, Old English geloma "utensil, tool," from ge-, perfective prefix, + -loma, of unknown origin (compare Old English andloman (plural) "apparatus, furniture"). Originally "implement or tool of any kind" (as in heirloom); thus, "the penis" (c.1400-1600). Specific meaning "a machine in which yarn or thread is woven into fabric" is from c.1400.

loom (v.) 1540s, "to come into view largely and indistinctly," perhaps from a Scandinavian source (compare dialectal Swedish loma, East Frisian lomen "move slowly"), perhaps a variant from the root of lame (adj.). Early used also of ships moving up and down. Figurative use from 1590s. Related: Loomed; looming.

...

Says PIE *pleu - so what is your link saying? That its really fan/van+loeien/lowan/la-en? lawn, land, line... but not getting the m to n change really.

lentus - slow - like lam - slow

Well, i must say it is always a discovery Puzzler, looking with you into etymologie :-)

I mean the 'van' (meaning from) before 'laën' in the link, could be at first hand declared unrelated with the actual verb 'laën', it is just pointing that the melting process (smelten) of glass gives the name to "ge-las" from the verb 'laën''. In my eyes related to ge-lade (glad), ge-leide (gleiden) -> to flow, fluent and gentle, sticking together in movement.

See also the 'lade' of the cupboard which means 'schuif' -> shuffle.

Schuifelen in dutch means walking slowly (lentement).

But Bilderdijk also connects this flowing aspect of 'laën' (laaien) with g-loeien and light (glowing -> glooiend landschap?).

I wonder why we could not add v-loeien (flowing) like you did ;-)

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HLAP is dutch loop (walk, run - pronounced as 'lope') from verb:

lopen - dutch (to walk - in Belgium: to run)

laufen - german (to walk)

hlaupa - icelandic (to run)

Note that the verb has remained most original in Icelandic.

I didn't mean that hlap transferred in that sentence context to soft, slow, lame

But was referencing Van Gorps link which said that lap was the same as lompe, lump, slow, lame

So, in essence both words may be connected if lap is also hlap...you can note Lithuanian to become lame within leap etymology.

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/leap

I know it's No walk not too hasty.

That's why it was tongue in cheek, softly may equate to Adelas surname linde.

But listen, while you're here, any ideas where lindawrde/Lindaoorden would have been?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Still don't get the point really, but the link provided me some new insights. Thanks for that.

hlapa - oldfrisian

hleapan - oldenglish

hlopan - oldsaxon

hlaufan - oldgerman

hlaupa - icelandic

løpe, laupe - norse

leypa - faroese

løbe - danish

löpa - swedish (means also: to be prepared for copulation)

lopen - dutch

laufen - german

leap, lope - english

ljeppe - frisian

Although the meanings vary between to walk, run, jump, it is clear how much these languages are related and have the same origin.

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