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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

Something else, and not that much related to this thread, but I found it in Alewyn's book about the OLB.

Alewyn mentions "barbarians" at some point, and uses the standard etymology to explain the word: that the Greek nicknamed a foreign language they couldn't understand with "bar-bar", or gibberish.

But the word "barbarian" is used for savage, wild people, and not so much for people using a language we don't understand.

I was reading (and by god, trying to learn and write it - cuneiform!) a book about Assyrian Grammar, and in a wordlist I found the word "barbaru", meaning "wolf".

Now I am not saying that the word "barbarian" came from Assyrian, but that it could have come from any Semitic language(Phoenican, Ugarit, Byblos, Ebla, Hebrew), and later adopted by the Greek with whom they were in contact (trade, war, travel).

So I am saying that the word had probably nothing to do with language (bar-bar), but with behaviour (savage, like a wolf: barbaru).

.

I think most ancient sources relate it to language and different people than themselves - anyone not Greek and not speaking Greek - not nec. Conan the Barbarian types.

barbarian (adj.) mid-14c., from Medieval Latin barbarinus (source of Old French barbarin "Berber, pagan, Saracen, barbarian"), from Latin barbaria "foreign country," from Greek barbaros "foreign, strange, ignorant," from PIE root *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners (compare Sanskrit barbara- "stammering," also "non-Aryan," Latin balbus "stammering," Czech blblati "to stammer").

Greek barbaroi (n.) meant "all that are not Greek," but especially the Medes and Persians. Originally not entirely pejorative, its sense darkened after the Persian wars. The Romans (technically themselves barbaroi) took up the word and applied it to tribes or nations which had no Greek or Roman accomplishments. The noun is from late 14c., "person speaking a language different from one's own," also (c.1400) "native of the Barbary coast;" meaning "rude, wild person" is from 1610s. http://www.etymonlin...?term=barbarian

Whether or not 'barbar' is a PIE root meaning 'echoic of unintelligible speech' could be disputed - however Sanskrit stammering makes a good case for the word being language related.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I'm looking for what JOL might actually mean.

Can't really find it in this Frisian Dictionary: http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html

although this seems to be JOL-LIKE

jōllik, jō-l-lik, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. jā-hwe-lik

Although: jāhwelik 28, jēwelik, jōllik, jōwelik, jā-hwe-lik, jē-we-lik, jō-l-lik, jō-we-lik, afries., Pron.: nhd. jeder; ne. everyone; ÜG.: lat. quīlibet AB (82, 15), AB (82, 21), AB (88, 17), singulus L 14; Q.: H, R, S, W, E, AB (82, 15), AB (82, 21), AB (88, 17), L 14; E.: s. *jā (3), hwe-lik; L.: Hh 52a, Rh 837b

Everyone - or maybe ALL - WHOLE - 'complete' the circuit of the year

I find it extraordinary that JOL actually says Yahweh/jahwe in Frisian.

What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda, also of the origin or beginning from which Time is derived

Edited by The Puzzler

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I'm looking for what JOL might actually mean.

Can't really find it in this Frisian Dictionary: http://www.koeblerge...rieswbhinw.html

although this seems to be JOL-LIKE

jōllik, jō-l-lik, afries., Pron.: Vw.: s. jā-hwe-lik

Although: jāhwelik 28, jēwelik, jōllik, jōwelik, jā-hwe-lik, jē-we-lik, jō-l-lik, jō-we-lik, afries., Pron.: nhd. jeder; ne. everyone; ÜG.: lat. quīlibet AB (82, 15), AB (82, 21), AB (88, 17), singulus L 14; Q.: H, R, S, W, E, AB (82, 15), AB (82, 21), AB (88, 17), L 14; E.: s. *jā (3), hwe-lik; L.: Hh 52a, Rh 837b

Everyone - or maybe ALL - WHOLE - 'complete' the circuit of the year

I find it extraordinary that JOL actually says Yahweh/jahwe in Frisian.

What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul—that is, the first symbol of Wr-alda, also of the origin or beginning from which Time is derived

Hi Puzzler,

I think to remember having posted once my idea about Jol being connected somehow with a rather West-Flemish word 'tjolen' ('dolen' in cleaned up dutch), meaning wandering around.

When looking further to see if there are some similar thoughts on the net I found this one (translated):

http://www.tjoolaard...ng-van-tjoolen/

"The Chola dynasty (pronounced Tsjola) was one of the longest reigning dynasties of South India. From the third century BC to the 13th century, with names like Rajaraja Chola and Rajendra Chola. The Tamils ​​are linked to them.

There is a region in Pakistan, Cholistan, where most of the inhabitants are nomads. And these are called Cholis. The verb cholna means move or go around. The Gypsies are descended from these parts and maybe who brought the word."

So maybe there is a root in Jol(Jul), Chol, Tsjol, Tjol, Dol, Tol ... with a meaning "going round/spinning", like a wheel does (see also Dutch word 'tollen').

Edited by Van Gorp
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I'm looking for what JOL might actually mean.

wheel - english

wiel - dutch

hjul - swedish, norse, danish

hjól - icelandic

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wheel - english

wiel - dutch

hjul - swedish, norse, danish

hjól - icelandic

I hear you but can you show me any etymology in Frisian for JOL...? Because JOL is used in the OLB.

If we believe Frisian/Fryan is a very early language - we need to stick with the original meanings in Frisian to make these etymologies work

Old Frisian hwel (etymology below) seems too different to JOL to me to be the same word.

However, that is not to say, that the concept of 'everyone'/jollik (jol-like = everyone/all-like) - 'all' (sounds a bit JOLish) - hail, whole, heel - became the word wheel.

I don't however think that in the OLB text the word JOL = wheel, but rather another concept - that wheel eventually became - and it seems to me it's ALL ie; whole - then you might get hole, round thing

I actually think the little bronze pin wheels found throughout Europe are talismans for good health - as in 'whole's' or HAIL's - and that this became wheel.

So, I am ignoring the PIE guess but not saying JOL in the OLB means wheel.

wheel (n.) Old English hweol, hweogol "wheel," from Proto-Germanic *hwewlaz- (cognates: Old Norse hvel, Old Swedish hiughl, Old Frisian hwel, Middle Dutch weel),

To Van Gorps post - then this 'whole' - became a wheel, because as a natural motion a whole/all ie; circle whirls around if it moves. I'll investigate what you say more though.

This seems particularly so looking at Northern European tradition of the wheel whirling around the sky completing a whole circuit - and what also I think the 'heelstone' is at Stonehenge - the marker of the completion of a whole. .

Edited by The Puzzler

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OLB also has the verb JOLA (yodel, bawl - modern dutch 'joelen').

But according to the schooled etymologists "joelen" is not related, but rather based on the sound it makes.

http://etymologieban...refwoord/joelen

Interestingly, it also says:

Het eerste lid van de samenstelling joelfeest ‘midwinterfeest, kerstmis’ [..] heeft een andere etymologie. Het is, wrsch. via Duits Jul(fest), ontleend aan Zweeds/Deens jul ‘kerstmis’, Oudnoords jól ‘midwinterfeest’, waarvan de etymologie omstreden is.

Translated:

The first part of "yulefeast" (midwinterfeast, christmas) [...] has a different etymology. It is probably based (via German "jul") on Oldnorse, Swedish/ Danish "jól", "jul", which has a controversial etymology.

I can no longer take schooled etymologists seriously.

Edited by gestur

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OLB also has the verb JOLA (yodel, bawl - modern dutch 'joelen').

But according to the schooled etymologists "joelen" is not related, but rather based on the sound it makes.

http://etymologieban...refwoord/joelen

Interestingly, it also says:

Het eerste lid van de samenstelling joelfeest ‘midwinterfeest, kerstmis’ [..] heeft een andere etymologie. Het is, wrsch. via Duits Jul(fest), ontleend aan Zweeds/Deens jul ‘kerstmis’, Oudnoords jól ‘midwinterfeest’, waarvan de etymologie omstreden is.

Translated:

The first part of "yulefeast" (midwinterfeast, christmas) [...] has a different etymology. It is probably based (via German "jul") on Oldnorse, Swedish/ Danish "jól", "jul", which has a controversial etymology.

I can no longer take schooled etymologists seriously.

I can look but if you know, where is that word in context in the OLB gestur?

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I can look but if you know, where is that word in context in the OLB gestur?

Source: Fryskednis

Fragments with "JOL" (Joel, Yol, Juul, Yule, Wheel) in OLB

JOL.FÉRSTE = Jol-feast

JOL.TID = Jol-time

JOL.DÉI = Jol-day

In verb:

JOLDON = cheered, howled

JOLANDE = cheering, howling

{original fragments from OLB with page and line number; O+S = Ottema (Dutch) and Sandbach (English) translations from 1876, with minimal corrections}

[002/16]

ALTOMET TVILDON ÀND JOLDON HJA TO SAMNE VPPA HÉM

JEFTHA HJA WÉRON MITH EKKORUM BY THÉRE HÉRD

[O+S p.7]

Somtijds dartelden en joelden zij te zamen op het hiem,

of zij waren met elkander bij den haard

They played and gamboled [howled] together in the fields,

and were also together by the hearth

[006/19]

AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA

[O+S p.13]

Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens

[006/30]

ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.

EK JOL.TID TWÉN

[O+S p.13]

En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren,

elke juultijd een paar

They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters —

at every Juul-time a couple

[014/10]

ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE

MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL [...]

[O+S p.23]

Alle inzettingen die eene eeuw, dat is honderd jaren, mogen omloopen

met den Kroder (kruijer) en zijn Juul [...]

All the regulations which have existed [can go round] a century, that is, a hundred years

[with the carrier and his Wheel] [...]

[020/21]

ALLE.T MÀRK.JELD MOT JÉRLIKES DÉLATH WRDE.

THRJA DÉGAN FAR THÉRE JOL.DÉI

[O+S p.33]

Al het marktgeld moet jaarlijks verdeeld worden,

drie dagen voor den Juuldag

All the market receipts must be divided yearly [...]

three days before the Juul-day

[037/24]

THA FOLK BIGOST TO JOLANDE ÀN TO SPOTANDE

[O+S p.55]

Het volk begon te joelen en te spotten

The people began to mock [howl] and to jeer

[045/09]

HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL

[O+S p.65]

Wat hier boven staat, dat zijn de teekens van het Juul

What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul

[045/12]

THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE

[O+S p.65]

deze is de Kroder, die eeuwig met het Juul moet rondloopen

this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul

[045/30]

MEN HJA NISTON NAVT GOD THÀT.ET FON ET JOL MÁKAD WAS

ÀND THAT.ET THÉRUMBE ALTID SKRÉVEN WRDEN MOSTE. MITH SON OM

[O+S p.67]

Maar zij wisten niet goed, dat het van het Juul gemaakt was,

en dat het daarom altijd moest geschreven worden met de zon om

but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,

and must therefore always be written round like the sun

[052/22]

ACTHTANTICH JÉR FORTHER. JUST WÉRET JOL.FÉRSTE.

THÉR KÉMON HJA VNWARLINGE LIK SNÉI THRVCH STORNE.WIND DRÉWEN

OVIR VSA LANDA TO RUNNANDE

[O+S p.75]

Tachtig jaren later, juist was het Juulfeest,

kwamen zij onverwacht, gelijk sneeuw door een stormwind gedreven,

over onze landen toeloopen

Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juul-feest,

they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind

[067/25]

LIK BLIXEN.FJVR GVNG.ET O.ERA A.LANDA.

ÀND ÉR THES KRODER.S JOL ÉNIS OMHLÁPEN HÉDE.

WAS HJU MÁSTERINNE [...]

[O+S p.95]

Als bliksemvuur ging het over de landen,

en eer des Kroders juul eens omgeloopen was,

was zij meesteres [...]

The news flew through the land like lightning,

and before the carrier's wheel had made one revolution

she was mistress [...]

[071/26]

HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLÁPA [...]

[O+S p.101]

want de Kroder zal nog vijfduizend jaren met zijn Jol omloopen [...]

because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul

[083/22]

VNDERA TÍDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.

STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP

[O+S p.115]

In de tijden, dat Atland verzonken is,

stond de eerste spaak van het Juul in top

At the time of the submersion of Atland,

the first spoke of the Juul stood at the top

[084/11]

FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA

ÀND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL

[O+S p.117]

vrijheid, liefde en eendracht zullen het volk in hare hoede nemen,

en met het juul uit de vuile poel rijzen

freedom, love, and unity will take the people under their protection,

and [with the Wheel] rise out of the vile pool

[094/02]

ALREK KÉM WITHER UT. TO JUWGANDE ÀND TO JOLANDE

[O+S p.131]

Iedereen kwam weder uit om te juichen en te joelen

the people all came out shouting with joy

[099/26]

MITH THET JOL WANDELATH ÀND WIXLATH ALLET ESKÉPNE.

MEN GOD IS ALLÉNA VNFORANDERLIK

[O+S p.137]

Met het Juul verandert en wisselt al het geschapene,

maar het goede is alleen onveranderlijk

In the progress of time [with the Wheel] all creation alters and changes,

but goodness alone is unalterable

[106/25]

SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL

SA SIATH HI THJU DÁNTE FON.ET JOL

[O+S p.147]

Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden,

dan ziet hij de gedaante van het Juul

If one looks down from the tower,

he sees the form of the Juul

[189/02]

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM.

VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE

[O+S p.229]

Brief van Rika de oudmaagd,

voorgelezen te Staveren bij het juulfeest

Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd [Oldfam],

read at Staveren at the Juul Feast

[192/27]

NIMMAN SKIL.ER ÀWET AN BÊTRA NE MÜGE

BIFÁRA THÀT JOL INOP EN ÔRE HLÁP.HRING TRÉTH

[O+S p.233]

niemand zal er iets aan kunnen verbeteren,

bevorens het Juul een anderen loopkring intreedt

they shall receive no succour

before the Juul shall enter upon a new circuit

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Thanks gestur. I will look at that more but will get this out...

Check this out - in Cornish howl etymology = Sun. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/howl

That seems to mean that howl is a form of wheel, and the wheel is the Sun (which we know) but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,

and must therefore always be written round like the sun

Howl and another word like it that I could bet is related is yell.

They howled in the fields - they whirled in the fields, means played, twirled, whirled around. They rolled in the fields. They yelled in the fields, they howled (hollered?) in the fields. ALl this basically means the same thing. Not an imitative voice of a dog.

And back to Van Gorps post - the whole concept, a whole/the all then delivers to whirl or roll even - they rolled (around) in the fields. They actually denote the God Pan's etymology to this "all", which is what a pan is anyway, a round.

I believe these concepts are earlier than wheel because they had to wait for the invention of a wheel to name it - but the concept would have already been there - to name it as such.

I can see things going around, when a dog howls his mouth is actually rounded shaped, the word howl itself makes your mouth go like that, since dogs actually go hoooooooooowl, their mouth cannot help but be quite round in this action.

So, in my opinion, it all seems to stem from how the mouth is shaped to make the word - owl meant round, which is a circle, which is a whole - a hole.

Id bet also that is why an owl is so named - its eyes are round.

Very much like Jule, Yule: owl (n.) Old English ule "owl," http://www.etymonlin...ex.php?term=owl After that its nonsense because they look to Proto-Germanic, which is really non-existant IMO. The hula imo is also so-named because they swing their hips around.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Something else, and not that much related to this thread, but I found it in Alewyn's book about the OLB.

Alewyn mentions "barbarians" at some point, and uses the standard etymology to explain the word: that the Greek nicknamed a foreign language they couldn't understand with "bar-bar", or gibberish.

But the word "barbarian" is used for savage, wild people, and not so much for people using a language we don't understand.

I was reading (and by god, trying to learn and write it - cuneiform!) a book about Assyrian Grammar, and in a wordlist I found the word "barbaru", meaning "wolf".

Now I am not saying that the word "barbarian" came from Assyrian, but that it could have come from any Semitic language(Phoenican, Ugarit, Byblos, Ebla, Hebrew), and later adopted by the Greek with whom they were in contact (trade, war, travel).

So I am saying that the word had probably nothing to do with language (bar-bar), but with behaviour (savage, like a wolf: barbaru).

+++

EDIT:

http://www.assyrianl...747&language=id

.

.

I support the first part of your view Abe:

bar-bar just meaning quite elementary in behaviour (savage, uncultivated for some), without complexities for others.

Second part of support less, the word 'bar' has a general meaning in dutch, possible germanic root 'bar' (see bar, baar, barely, bare naked)

All meaning naked, open. In contrast with high fly dressed up customs like Latin or Greek (superficial).

http://etymologieban.../trefwoord/bar1

I don't see why Bar is needed to be from Semitic origin. Semitic languages though share common ground with Germanic.

Greek indeed can have adopted the word. Again in favour of the possibilty many greek words are just adoptions from Germanic.

My idea:

root BAR/BER: uncovered, straight forward, quite basic, rigid

Edited by Van Gorp
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I support the first part of your view Abe:

bar-bar just meaning quite elementary in behaviour (savage, uncultivated for some), without complexities for others.

Second part of support less, the word 'bar' has a general meaning in dutch, possible germanic root 'bar' (see bar, baar, barely, bare naked)

All meaning naked, open. In contrast with high fly dressed up customs like Latin or Greek (superficial).

http://etymologieban.../trefwoord/bar1

I don't see why Bar is needed to be from Semitic origin. Semitic languages though share common ground with Germanic.

Greek indeed can have adopted the word. Again in favour of the possibilty many greek words are just adoptions from Germanic.

My idea:

root BAR/BER: uncovered, straight forward, quite basic, rigid

Could be. Good one.

Danish - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bare - simply/simple (language)

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bar-bar just meaning quite elementary in behaviour (savage, uncultivated for some), without complexities for others.

Second part of support less, the word 'bar' has a general meaning in dutch, possible germanic root 'bar' (see bar, baar, barely, bare naked)

All meaning naked, open.

Interestingy, the (old) dutch verb "baren" can also mean to scream, or to rage, rave.

source: http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/baren2

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Interestingy, the (old) dutch verb "baren" can also mean to scream, or to rage, rave.

source: http://etymologieban...refwoord/baren2

Yes indeed, and if we keep looking further there seems to be connection also with the root of the word 'baron' (baro)

(as free man, open/free from any duties towards others and ready to fight for that?)

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=baron

Later used for nobility, and with progress of time (where nobility looses its own freedom more and more) also further from original meaning.

I can fully imagine roman world would call these free warriors bar-baro's because not yet 'conquered' and acting free from the bonds that where typical in Roman 'society' circles.

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To summarize: i think bar-bar interpreting for gibberish is not really accurate

So I am saying that the word had probably nothing to do with language (bar-bar), but with behaviour (savage, like a wolf: barbaru).

neither is a savage behaviour fully correct in my opinion. See the barbaroi of Malta who were described as 'filanthropian'.

The wolf Abe is talking could be pointing to the 'lonesome' aspect of the wolf, see what we use it nowadays still in the expression 'lonely wolf' for an unconnected figure in contrast to being part of a network.

Bar-baro's: the ones not yet entangled in the network of internal Roman society/power play.

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The OLB-verb BÁRA/ BÁRJA means something like Dutch "openbaren" - to reveal, disclose (see 1)

The OLB-noun BÁRA (plur.) means "bears" (used twice) - Dutch "beren" (see 2)

examples of (1)

THA FORSTA ÀND PRESTERA KÉMON BÁRJA

THAT WI HJARA TJVTH OVER HÉRICH MAKAD HÉDE

MEN TÜNIS THÉR FÀRSJANDE WÉRE

BÁRDE THAT ER NÉN ÍSERE WÉPNE NER BÀRNSTÉNE MÁR HÉDE

THÁ. HEL.LÉNJA JEFTA MINERVA STURVEN WAS

THA BÁRADON THA PRESTERA AS JEF HJA MITH VS WÉRON

examples of (2)

THÉR SEND WOLVA BÁRA ÀND SWÁRTE GRISLIKA LÁWA

HO FÉLO BÁRA ÀND WOLVA HUDA HÀST AL VPPA THÉRE MÀRK BROCHT

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I think most ancient sources relate it to language and different people than themselves - anyone not Greek and not speaking Greek - not nec. Conan the Barbarian types.

barbarian (adj.) mid-14c., from Medieval Latin barbarinus (source of Old French barbarin "Berber, pagan, Saracen, barbarian"), from Latin barbaria "foreign country," from Greek barbaros "foreign, strange, ignorant," from PIE root *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners (compare Sanskrit barbara- "stammering," also "non-Aryan," Latin balbus "stammering," Czech blblati "to stammer").

Greek barbaroi (n.) meant "all that are not Greek," but especially the Medes and Persians. Originally not entirely pejorative, its sense darkened after the Persian wars. The Romans (technically themselves barbaroi) took up the word and applied it to tribes or nations which had no Greek or Roman accomplishments. The noun is from late 14c., "person speaking a language different from one's own," also (c.1400) "native of the Barbary coast;" meaning "rude, wild person" is from 1610s. http://www.etymonlin...?term=barbarian

Whether or not 'barbar' is a PIE root meaning 'echoic of unintelligible speech' could be disputed - however Sanskrit stammering makes a good case for the word being language related.

I was only suggesting a - very reasonable - alternative etymology. One which does indeed point to 'savage behaviour'.

You should not bother yourself too much about whether 'barbar' is a PIE root or not. Like I said, people borrow and adopt words. By trade, war and travel. even despite the fact that one is of Germanic descent and the other or Semitic descent.

And the source I use is 5000 years old...

Just saying.

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To summarize: i think bar-bar interpreting for gibberish is not really accurate

neither is a savage behaviour fully correct in my opinion. See the barbaroi of Malta who were described as 'filanthropian'.

The wolf Abe is talking could be pointing to the 'lonesome' aspect of the wolf, see what we use it nowadays still in the expression 'lonely wolf' for an unconnected figure in contrast to being part of a network.

Bar-baro's: the ones not yet entangled in the network of internal Roman society/power play.

Wolves in general are not 'lonesome', and that's why some of these doggies, those that hunt alone, get that nickname.

Wolves, normally, hunt in packs. And when they get you, you're fked.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I was only suggesting a - very reasonable - alternative etymology. One which does indeed point to 'savage behaviour'.

You should not bother yourself too much about whether 'barbar' is a PIE root or not. Like I said, people borrow and adopt words. By trade, war and travel. even despite the fact that one is of Germanic descent and the other or Semitic descent.

And the source I use is 5000 years old...

Just saying.

Could even be related to 'beard'. barb/barbed (wire) Uncouth, rough, coarse, uncultured, bearded, foreign. Greeks did adopt this thought and I know Greek soldiers were made to shave back in the times of the Persians even.

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Could even be related to 'beard'. barb/barbed (wire) Uncouth, rough, coarse, uncultured, bearded, foreign. Greeks did adopt this thought and I know Greek soldiers were made to shave back in the times of the Persians even.

Could be, but the general idea of "barbarians" is of savage, wild people.

I wonder who it was who started with the "bar-bar" thing. Herodotus?

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Could be, but the general idea of "barbarians" is of savage, wild people.

I wonder who it was who started with the "bar-bar" thing. Herodotus?

There seems to be a fair bit of info at barbarian - Wiki

In Homer's works, the term appeared only once (Iliad 2.867), in the form βαρβαρόφωνος (barbarophonos) ("of incomprehensible speech"), used of the Carians fighting for Troy during the Trojan War.

The Ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (barbaros), "barbarian", was an antonym for πολίτης (politēs), "citizen" (from πόλις - polis, "city-state"). The sound of barbaros onomatopoetically evokes the image of babbling (a person speaking a non-Greek language).[5] The earliest attested form of the word is the Mycenaean Greek , pa-pa-ro, written in Linear B syllabic script

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Wolves in general are not 'lonesome', and that's why some of these doggies, those that hunt alone, get that nickname.

Wolves, normally, hunt in packs. And when they get you, you're fked.

.

True, wolfs hunt normally in packs.

So Barbaru as Wolf the predator: wild, not domesticated, natural or uncultivated animal?

Perfectly in line with the root 'bar': naked, open, rough nature

Makes more sense imo than bar-bar as gibberish sound.

Even if so, where is then coming the root 'bar' as used for open, uncultivated, wild, rough?

From the gibberish sound wild people make? :-)

Remember in dutch "bar" is also used for expression of superlatif forms as in 'bar-koud': extremely cold.

Bar-baru for people: natural in kwadraat, from cradle to grave: rough and free people living very close to nature compared with the more 'civilised' Greek and Roman societies.

Bar-bar-ie (North Africa, Maghreb): not because Greeks/Romans could not understand the people living there, walking around making the well known bar-bar sound when speaking or it were all considered wild people having just passed the stage of using language, but because of the open (deserted, naked sand) and uncultivated nature of the land?

Seems like Greek/Roman is a gibberish language :-)

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From Puzzler's quote about 'Barbarian' on WIKI:

"The Ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (barbaros), "barbarian", was an antonym for πολίτης (politēs), "citizen" (from πόλις - polis, "city-state")."

...

"The sound of barbaros onomatopoetically evokes the image of babbling (a person speaking a non-Greek language)"

or

"from PIE root *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=barbarian

So we have 'barbar' as the antonyme of polis(city) members (citizens of a city?)

While 'barbar' etymological is assumed to be only based on echoing the sound of unintelligble speech???

Well, in imo it is clear: "barbar" is then etymologically based on a root bar, with a meaning opposed to cultivation as in Greek/Roman citystate society -> natural, open, not bound to their citystates.

Problem here is why are Greeks/Romans using a root with an existing meaning in Germanic languages, but having hardly any meaning (etymological only the sound of babling???) following their own ??? And Germanic languages are assumed to have imported this word given to them, as a loanword?

For me hard to follow.

Wild in the eyes of the city dwellers :-)

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From Puzzler's quote about 'Barbarian' on WIKI:

"The Ancient Greek word βάρβαρος (barbaros), "barbarian", was an antonym for πολίτης (politēs), "citizen" (from πόλις - polis, "city-state")."

...

"The sound of barbaros onomatopoetically evokes the image of babbling (a person speaking a non-Greek language)"

or

"from PIE root *barbar- echoic of unintelligible speech of foreigners"

http://www.etymonlin...?term=barbarian

So we have 'barbar' as the antonyme of polis(city) members (citizens of a city?)

While 'barbar' etymological is assumed to be only based on echoing the sound of unintelligble speech???

Well, in imo it is clear: "barbar" is then etymologically based on a root bar, with a meaning opposed to cultivation as in Greek/Roman citystate society -> natural, open, not bound to their citystates.

Problem here is why are Greeks/Romans using a root with an existing meaning in Germanic languages, but having hardly any meaning (etymological only the sound of babling???) following their own ??? And Germanic languages are assumed to have imported this word given to them, as a loanword?

For me hard to follow.

Wild in the eyes of the city dwellers :-)

This is what I'm seeing over and over and what's convincing me more and more of the validity of at least early Germanic, maybe Nordwestblock languages being the only ones that can have a sensible meaning etymologically in the old Mediterranean languages - old Gothic is the closest to the apparent Proto-Germanic, so its interesting to look for the similarities to Frisian and Greek/Latin in their words too- and good spotting to see the opposite of city-state as being a good representative of what the word equates to. I agree with you, bar/bare-barb not bound by city states, free-living, rough, barbed, to stammering etc

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In Fryan, the verb BÁR.BÁRA would mean something like revealing the naked truth or speaking openly.

The term Berbers (Imazighen, free and noble people of Northern Africa) is related.

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