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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

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This is unrelated, but currently I'm reading through the old thread, and found an issue that appeared unresolved, at least by the 220s of pages. Apparently at one point Frisia was known as "The Land of the Alans", which seems odd since the Alans never even made it to the Netherlands.

Well... http://www.annomundi.com/history/alanus.htm

"Nennius, an 8th century historian, had sources available to him that have long since perished, but he preserved the following text in Chapter 17 of his Historia Brittonum... The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicion, Armenon, and Neugio. Hisicion had four sons, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Bruttus.

According to the Travels of Noah, there were some early inhabitants of Spain called the Alani, and together with them we find the Goths who are also mentioned by Nennius, as the people of Gothus (son of Armenon, son of Alanus).

Alanus set off on a voyage to Spain. He took his three sons with him, and his grandsons, and he may have stopped in Italy on the way and dropped some of them off.

By studying the etymology of Turkish place names, it is possible to trace the migration of the family of Alanus as far as the two sea ports of Fethiya and Alanya."

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I'm reading through the old thread, and found an issue that appeared unresolved, at least by the 220s of pages. Apparently at one point Frisia was known as "The Land of the Alans", which seems odd since the Alans never even made it to the Netherlands.

Good to hear that the old threat is still of inspiration to you.

The Alans are not mentioned in the OLB.

How do you know they never made it to the NL?

They could have been here without there being a source about it.

We only have very few sources.

Or the source that claimed that Frisia was once "land of the Alans" could be wrong.

There is much pseudo-history around.

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Good to hear that the old threat is still of inspiration to you.

The Alans are not mentioned in the OLB.

How do you know they never made it to the NL?

They could have been here without there being a source about it.

We only have very few sources.

Or the source that claimed that Frisia was once "land of the Alans" could be wrong.

There is much pseudo-history around.

This is based off of Abramelin's posts- he cited proper sources.

I just found it interesting- Alanus, the First Europeans, the Fryans are arguably the first Europeans...

Also, the name 'Julius'... notice the beggining, 'Jul', like our all-mighty Jul Wheel. The name meaning has something to do with being bearded- like Northmen, so presumably the Fryans may have had.

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Whelp. I just discovered there's a possibility I'm Frisian.

So *thats* why this thread is so interesting and I love the Dutch! :P

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Whelp. I just discovered there's a possibility I'm Frisian.

So *thats* why this thread is so interesting and I love the Dutch! :P

Hi Abe.

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I am not drunk, old or Batavian.

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This is unrelated, but currently I'm reading through the old thread, and found an issue that appeared unresolved, at least by the 220s of pages. Apparently at one point Frisia was known as "The Land of the Alans", which seems odd since the Alans never even made it to the Netherlands.

Well... http://www.annomundi...tory/alanus.htm

"Nennius, an 8th century historian, had sources available to him that have long since perished, but he preserved the following text in Chapter 17 of his Historia Brittonum... The first man that dwelt in Europe was Alanus, with his three sons, Hisicion, Armenon, and Neugio. Hisicion had four sons, Francus, Romanus, Alamanus, and Bruttus.

According to the Travels of Noah, there were some early inhabitants of Spain called the Alani, and together with them we find the Goths who are also mentioned by Nennius, as the people of Gothus (son of Armenon, son of Alanus).

Alanus set off on a voyage to Spain. He took his three sons with him, and his grandsons, and he may have stopped in Italy on the way and dropped some of them off.

By studying the etymology of Turkish place names, it is possible to trace the migration of the family of Alanus as far as the two sea ports of Fethiya and Alanya."

All very interesting, if not mind-bendingly baffling and I read all the texts in the links.

I don't think the Alans made it to Frisia at any rate either.

Seems to me though, the Alani/Alans, who would be ancestors of some Germanic people are descended from Iranic speaking 'Arian' Scythians, related to Persians, who roamed from Germany to India, which might be what Hitler saw.

These people, "who were formerly known as Massagetae" used a battle axe as their favourite weapon.

The Massagetae: Drink milk, have one wife, worship the sun only and sacrifice horses to him, swiftest animal for swiftest God/planet

Compare Scythians – horse sacrifice – sun worship, milk drinkers, horses and cattle nomadic types, fair haired, speaking Aryan iranic language – R1a

Very like Germanic R1a types, German I's are more 'Fryan' and native to Western Europe.

Id say they arrived with the Battle Axe culture and they are the Magyar and people in subjection to them, named Finns by the Fryans.

The Trondhom Chariot imo is from this introduction of people and is not native but is an idol made to represent the swift horse pulling the Sun, God.

As for the Goths - the would be the JUTTAR - Gutones JUTones - so are Fryans - however, since they inhabit prime Magyar taking territory, they became subsumed by them, with the example of Wodin being taken the the uplands and incensed, while the Magyar led vile sacrifice etc. The Goths then, can be Fryans, who were spoilt by the incomers.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

The map there shows the influx of R1a people (yellow) in the Corded Ware culture, that is also the Battle Axe culture, it heads into southern Scandinavia. These are R1a nomadic steppe people, synonymous with a Russian Scythian milk drinking, wagon people, worshipping Mother earth and the Sun with horses and cattle. I believe they headed into a native I Y-DNA culture, shown on the map by blue megalithic, bell beaker folk, of whom the Fryans were probably part of, later on a dominant R1b force hit Europe but I do not think, like the map shows, it was in Western Europe this early.

This is another map but also shows the horizon of the culture - this imo is the Finda horizon entering Europe.

310px-Corded_Ware_culture.png

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Back later.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I am not drunk, old or Batavian.

Well that settles it then. Say no more.

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OK.. I didn't mean to halt the conversation entirely! Just to inject a little humor.

*Sheesh*

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Why is everything in the OLB accepted as Gospel?

I got to thinking this while reading the old thread. Even if the Fryans genuinely exist, why do they have to always be telling the truth, if the OLB was real (which I thinkit isn't) it would have gone through many revisions, edits, imbellishments, mythologisations, etc. Maybe the Findas Folk weren't actually so bad. Maybe the Fryans were involved in history, but weren't so great as they claim.

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Why is everything in the OLB accepted as Gospel?

Is it?

Even if the Fryans genuinely exist, why do they have to always be telling the truth, if the OLB was real (...) it would have gone through many revisions, edits, imbellishments, mythologisations, etc.

I have said similar things several times.

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if the OLB was real (which I thinkit isn't) ...

What is/are the main reason(s) for your doubt?

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Why is everything in the OLB accepted as Gospel?

I got to thinking this while reading the old thread. Even if the Fryans genuinely exist, why do they have to always be telling the truth, if the OLB was real (which I thinkit isn't) it would have gone through many revisions, edits, imbellishments, mythologisations, etc. Maybe the Findas Folk weren't actually so bad. Maybe the Fryans were involved in history, but weren't so great as they claim.

I always felt Abe (in this thread, others in others) was pushing it that we had to have everything exactly as the text states or the whole thing can't be real at all, I get the same thing with Atlantis and the Bible is similar to a degree, unless you can have exact proof of what it exactly states, its not good enough for skeptics, which of course is absolutely ridiculous...people who like to entertain the possibility that these stories have factual basis very rarely take it all at absolute literal face value but do need to take into account that others do when presenting in a forum such as this.

Sure, its all about picking out what could be true and who might be who, and where they stood, if any of it is true, in the whole picture...looking for the realities through the embellishments, such as in my post #5582.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I was trying to find some more info on the Friesche Volksalmanac and who might have written the article with the dates that came to 2193/94...

I found this info, but it doesn't tell much although I can't read it properly and am too tired to effort the translation.

Gegevens titel

Auteur -

Titel (Nieuwe) Friesche Volks-almanak

Jaar 1836-1899

Plaats -

Beschrijving

De Friesche Volksalmanak was de voortzetting van het => Friesch Jierboeckje. Het verscheen in drie telkens opnieuw genummerde series: als respectievelijk Friesche Volksalmanak (1-17; 1836-1853), Nieuwe Friesche volks-almanak (1-14; 1854-1866) en - na een onderbreking van 18 jaar - opnieuw als Friesche volksalmanak (1884-1899).

Vele bekende Friese schrijvers en (dilettant-)geleerden uit Friese burgerlijke kringen droegen, soms in het Fries, meestal in het Nederlands, bij aan de Volksalmanak. Het blad bevat in totaal 1274 literaire en historische bijdragen. Een index op deze artikelen zal binnenkort beschikbaar komen. Producent W.D. Palstra Signatuur FRYS 01.41 frie Verwijzing website

http://www.wumkes.nl...hp?volg=1&id=51

Does the front cover have someones name on it do you think..? an author?

http://images.tresoar.nl/wumkes/periodieken/fa/fa_1836.pdf

Edited by The Puzzler

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On the etymology used for Anglo-Engeland -> (H)angel (hook)

OLB:

Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.

The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.

Baron De Ryckholt, "...le flamand, langue primordiale, mère de toutes les langues.", p21:

"Etym Angleur Angeler de angele pêcher à la ligne

Angledura Angeledure pêcher constamment à la ligne ce mot antérieur à l occupation romaine signifie localité où l on pêche à la ligne ou habitée par des pêcheurs à la ligne Les Angli Angle c est à dire les pêcheurs à la ligne sont les premiers habitants connus des côtes méridionales de l Angleterre ou terre des pêcheurs Un peuple du même nom était établi à rentrée du Jutland sur les bords de la mer et de l Elbe

"

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

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On the etymology used for Anglo-Engeland -> (H)angel (hook)

OLB:

Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum.

The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.

Baron De Ryckholt, "...le flamand, langue primordiale, mère de toutes les langues.", p21:

"Etym Angleur Angeler de angele pêcher à la ligne

Angledura Angeledure pêcher constamment à la ligne ce mot antérieur à l occupation romaine signifie localité où l on pêche à la ligne ou habitée par des pêcheurs à la ligne Les Angli Angle c est à dire les pêcheurs à la ligne sont les premiers habitants connus des côtes méridionales de l Angleterre ou terre des pêcheurs Un peuple du même nom était établi à rentrée du Jutland sur les bords de la mer et de l Elbe

"

http://books.google....nepage&q&f=true

I'm not sure what the French? text is saying.

However the OLB is a good etymology imo. Then does hang/er also come from this..? I wonder...? To hang, ( a coathanger is a good example too of an angled suspension/hanger) suspend (a line) = to angle - this makes an angle to the rod - and is Angleland really named because the men fished with angles or is it because its in a corner and a quite remote area...? Maybe England is actually named because it's remote, in the corner of the continent, rather than named after Angles or anything...

Etymology 1:

From Middle English, from Middle French angle, from Latin angulus (“corner, remote area”), from Proto-Indo-European *ang- (“corner, hirn”). Cognate with Old High German ancha (“nape of the neck”), Middle High German anke (“joint of the foot, nape of neck”).

Etymology 2:

From Middle English anglelen (“to fish”), from angel (“fishhook”), from Old English angel, angul (“fishhook”), from Proto-Germanic *angulō, *angô (“hook, angle”), from Proto-Indo-European *ank-, *Hank- (“something bent, hook”). Cognate with West Frisian angel (“fishing rod, stinger”), Dutch angel (“fishhook”), German Angel (“fishing pole”), German angeln (“to fish, angle”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/angle

Edited by The Puzzler

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I'm not sure what the French? text is saying.

However the OLB is a good etymology imo. Then does hang/er also come from this..? I wonder...? To hang, ( a coathanger is a good example too of an angled suspension/hanger) suspend (a line) = to angle - this makes an angle to the rod - and is Angleland really named because the men fished with angles or is it because its in a corner and a quite remote area...? Maybe England is actually named because it's remote, in the corner of the continent, rather than named after Angles or anything...

Etymology 1:

From Middle English, from Middle French angle, from Latin angulus (“corner, remote area”), from Proto-Indo-European *ang- (“corner, hirn”). Cognate with Old High German ancha (“nape of the neck”), Middle High German anke (“joint of the foot, nape of neck”).

Etymology 2:

From Middle English anglelen (“to fish”), from angel (“fishhook”), from Old English angel, angul (“fishhook”), from Proto-Germanic *angulō, *angô (“hook, angle”), from Proto-Indo-European *ank-, *Hank- (“something bent, hook”). Cognate with West Frisian angel (“fishing rod, stinger”), Dutch angel (“fishhook”), German Angel (“fishing pole”), German angeln (“to fish, angle”).

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/angle

The French text says just the same as OLB: Angelaren are the "Hengelaren" (Hengelen = fishing with lines).

See dutch word "hengelaar" (or hangelaar).

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...=WNT&id=M024061

I found it curious within all different etymologies the french text gives exactly the same as in OLB (which many find hard to take serious).

But in fact, the Anglo Sax could be very well the Sax living at the 'corner' of now Engeland.

Corner is 'hoek' in Dutch and also the 'kant' = Kent.

Kant = Hoek = Angle = Angel = Hook = Hengel

Edited by Van Gorp
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What language can bring to mind sometimes ...

If we say an Angel can be seen as a Hook, then we say that a Haak (Hook in Dutch) can be found also in the plural form like the 's Haak-sen.

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Or what a coincidence Adolf was called Sax when inventing the Sax-ofoon.

Saxes.jpg

I can see a 'Hak' in there.

Just as in the stiletto-shoe:

zwarte-pumps-peeptoe-met-hoge-hakken-4562-1.jpg

And what do we do with the Sax weapon -> Stilletto??

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Comments on a fragment from "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by Goffe Jensma (PhD thesis about the Oera Linda Book).

Page 157, about the Over de Linden family that owned the manuscript:

"From 558 BCE till 1938 CE every head of the family would have inherited the manuscript from his predecessor and passed it on again to his descendant. Self-evidently, this is a more than questionable scenario."

Original Dutch text:

"Vanaf 558 voor Christus tot 1938 na Christus zou ieder hoofd van de familie telkens het handschrift van zijn voorganger hebben gekregen en weer hebben overgedragen aan zijn navolger. Vanzelfsprekend is dit een meer dan betwijfelbare gang van zaken."

1. If there would have been one copy in one lineage only, it would indeed be remarkable (though not impossible) that this copy survived for so long.

But there will probably have been many copies around and in that case there was more chance that one of them survived and showed up. Who knows how many more there still are in private collections? (Considering what happened to Cornelis Over de Linden, I would be reluctant to bring it to 'specialists', if I had something similar in my possession.)

2. It is not necessarily so, that the known copy was saved in one family lineage from Adela 'Oera Linda' till Cornelis Over de Linden. Imagine that a random family had it in its possession in (for example) the 17th century, and that the owner was able to read (parts of) it. He may have adopted the name "Over de Linden", inspired by the manuscript.

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Comment on another fragment (p.145):

"The creation process probably did not take place in a continuous period, but in stages. The last efforts were clearly the hardest, because as the text approached its completion, concentration slacked and hastily the last bits were made up, translated and written down. As the book progresses, its quality decreases in several ways (style, trimness, concentration, structure). [...] It seems obvious that this was partly caused by time pressure and haste."

Original Dutch text:

"Het maakproces heeft waarschijnlijk niet in een aaneengesloten periode plaatsgevonden, maar in etappes. De laatste loodjes wogen duidelijk het zwaarst, want naarmate de tekst zijn voltooiing naderde, verslapte de concentratie en werd er met behoorlijke haast een en ander bedacht, vertaald en afgeschreven. Naarmate het vordert, neemt in allerlei opzichten (stijl, netheid, concentratie, structuur) de kwaliteit van het boek af. De oorspronkelijke bedoeling zou dus heel goed geweld kunnen zijn aangedaan. Het ligt voor de hand dat tijdsdruk en haast daarbij een rol hebben gespeeld."

According to Jensma, the OLB was created by Over de Linden, Haverschmidt and Verwijs.

If they had finished the manuscript in a hurry, then why did Verwijs delay its translation and publication by more than two years?

See letter fragments:

... fragments from letters by Verwijs (...):

1) 1867 june 28 - to J.F. Jansen

"This morning I copied a whole speech which is not all clear to me yet, but which, as far as I could judge from the copy, is most curious."

2) 1867 oct. 13 - to C. Over de Linden (OdL)

"As I said, I was overjoyed with the discovery and told many of my friends. Part of it was quite easy to understand and, although seeming to be of younger age, not different from the language of the Oldfrisian laws from the 13th and 14th century. But there were also fragments, that I didn't and still don't understand and that will take much meticulous study, before I can clarify them."

3) 1867 oct. 16 - to OdL

"I really can't promise you the translation of a separate part, as there are difficulties in it, that may take weeks of study."

4) 1867 oct. 19 - to OdL

"It certainly is a manuscript from one of your ancestors - which means your family is very old - , that was copied many times and by all means deserves to become known. [...] The importance of the manuscript will give the ancient name of the Oera Linda's a radiance, brighter than any of the oldest noble families."

5) 1868 nov. 21 - to OdL

"The case is of enough interest to me, to finally dive into it properly."

6) 1869 may 17 - to OdL

"Then I hope to take the whole with me in this summer holiday and start translating."

7) 1869 nov. 11 - to OdL

"I finally return the manuscript to you, but you will be sorry that the translation is still missing. [...] Here and there translation is very easy and it can be done at first sight; but other parts contain difficulties, that take much time and study. But I hope to be able to help you soon now."

8) 1869 nov. 11 - to J. Winkler

"Here and there translation is easy, but there are also quite some difficulties and unknown words. I know that if I would start, I would not rest before I have solved them, and that way I would spend much too much time on it. [...] The case is of much interest to me, so I don't want to fully withdraw from it. [...] Such an etymological quest is very much of my liking, [...] It's odd that it contains some very old words and that also the forms point at a previous linguistic era, while other expressions sound so very modern." [Verwijs could not (or hardly) imagine that some expressions were old, which does not prove that they could not in fact have neen old.]

This is just one of many examples of how Jensma's theory does not make sense.

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Othar Winnis, are you Otharus?

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Othar Winnis, are you Otharus?

Do you really need to ask...? lol

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Othar Winnis [Winis], are you Otharus?

Yes, at some point I had enough of this forum and how I had behaved here, so I signed out.

Later I joined again as "gestur", but recently I changed this into my current name.

"Othar Winis" is derived from my family name and place of birth, and easier to find on the web as my real name (Jan Ott), which is not unique.

... if the OLB was real (which I think it isn't)...

What makes you doubt?

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