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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Thanks.

Within that Star of David, did you notice a sun with 6 rays?

That is like the JOL, but then with the spokes moved to the outside.

I thought it was based on a geometric pattern ('flower pattern') with which you can create an embellished Star of David:

Davidster-bloempatroon.gif

Davidster_Jol.jpg

Here is one from a synagogue:

Davidster_synagoge.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Posted (edited)

I don't know how to translate -oorden in proper English, but it is a wellknown word from the OLB

Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct.

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...82&lemma=waerde

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=oord

http://nl.wikipedia....aard_(landschap)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward

Some OLB fragments with WRD:

THÁ KÉMON THÁ LANDWÉRAR UT ALLE WRDA WÉI

THRVCH MIN FOLK BEN IK KÉREN TO GRÉVETMAN OVIRA LINDA WRDA

THA WALDA THÉRA LINDA WRDA WÉRON MÉST WÉI

NÉI THA WRDUM FON STÁVERE ÀND THÀT ALDERGA

TO MIDNE FONET FÉST.FÍRJA KÉM NÉVIL TO HULLANDE VSA WRDA IN THIKKE THJUSTERNISE

SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE WRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA

THÁ GOSA FALLEN WAS THÁ WILDON THA LJUD FON ALLE WRDA ÉNE OTHERE MODER KJASA

THENE OTHERA SVJARING NÉI MANNA.GARDA.WRDA.

MANNA.GARDA.WRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK. MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN. MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN.

DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA BY HJARA LJUDA ROND

THAT ALD ÀND JONG UT ALLE WRDUM WÉI KÉMOM

MIN TÁT HETH SKRÉVEN HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND.

LINDA.HÉM IS JETA WÉI. THA LINDA.WRDA FAR EN DÉL

Varieties of LJUDWERD:

Ljuwert [hidde/16]; 1256 CE

Ljudwerd [liko/23]; 803 CE

Ljudwardja [113/25-26] ca. 300 BCE

Ljvdwérd [143/21] ca. 250 BCE

Ljvwrd [143/22] idem

Ljvwerde [206/11] ca. 50 BCE

The following list of toponyms also demonstrates how Newfrisian spelling is degenerating (changing D into T):

Dutch/ Oldfrisian spelling VS "Nyfrysk":

Britswerd - Britswert

Burgwerd - Burgwert

Cornwerd - Koarnwert

Hartwerd - Hartwert

Jorwerd - Jorwert

Kimswerd - Kimswert

Leeuwarden - Ljouwert

Rewerd - Rewert

Tjerkwerd - Tsjerkwert

Wieuwerd - Wiuwert

Edited by Otharus

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Posted (edited)

I understand, and that is why I said that 'wrald' is also used in Old Frisian, and even in modern Frisian.

In old Frisian both forms appear to have been used side by side as the link to the pdf showed.

And then again, the 'wralda' in that sentence I showed you really means 'world', although Sandbach left it out in his translation (I haven't checked Ottema's translation yet).

But ok, so Wr_alda could mean many things: Overly Old, The World, Timekeeper, and something like a(n Eternal) Guardian ("wera" = to defend).

.

I think wralda means world, but my question is how is the word world made up? (Many things, yes, but which one is correct..?) Is it really old man. The Frisian has an a, as in WARLD. It doesn't matter if it's also WRALD, the point is it has an A, the world for W'R must be WAR root imo, not WER or WIR.

Again: WARalden Olmai. Unless you can get man from WAR, I don't think the word that starts what became the word world is man.

http://en.wikipedia..../Waralden_Olmai

Edited by The Puzzler

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Posted (edited)

Well, I am glad you are going to do it because lately I am having bit of 'translation fatigue', lol.

Me too actually, so I will not hurry.

I found some great sources, that I will just scan and post first, so we can discuss them later.

As always, I save the best for last.

Coming up first: article by Wilkens (2005) in Semafoor, about Jensma's thesis.

Edited by Otharus

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Posted (edited)

I think wralda means world, but my question is how is the word world made up? (Many things, yes, but which one is correct..?) Is it really old man. The Frisian has an a, as in WARLD. It doesn't matter if it's also WRALD, the point is it has an A, the world for W'R must be WAR root imo, not WER or WIR.

Again: WARalden Olmai. Unless you can get man from WAR, I don't think the word that starts what became the word world is man.

http://en.wikipedia..../Waralden_Olmai

I don't think the vowel shift (a>e or visa versa) is as huge as you seem to think.

I also don't think - and I said it before - that -ald means old. It actually means 'age', like in 'life span'.

What I posted before is, that the original meaning of wereld/wralda/world is "mensenleeftijd" or the "age of man".

Mens = man = wer

Leeftijd = age = alda

world

O.E. woruld, worold "human existence, the affairs of life," also "the human race, mankind," a word peculiar to Germanic languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of "age of man," from P.Gmc. *wer "man" (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old).

Originally "life on earth, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," sense extended to "the known world," then to "the physical world in the broadest sense, the universe" (c.1200).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Just look at all those different forms:

woruld - werold - warld - wereld - verold - weralt - world

And the Old Frisian dictionary uses both wrald as warld for world; apparently the vowel next to the -w- was not that important and it easily changed order with the -r-

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Me too actually, so I will not hurry.

I found some great sources, that I will just scan and post first, so we can discuss them later.

As always, I save the best for last.

Coming up first: article by Wilkens (2005) in Semafoor, about Jensma's thesis.

Well, I did already translate a small piece (the conclusion about Van der Linden-Steggerda), so people know what they can expect.

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Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct.

My problem was with the English translation for 'oord' (pural = 'oorden').

I think the English 'ward' has too many other meanings. I prefer quarter or district now I think of it. (and 'quarter' sounds interestingly close to 'waard')

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I don't think the vowel shift (a>e or visa versa) is as huge as you seem to think.

I also don't think - and I said it before - that -ald means old. It actually means 'age', like in 'life span'.

What I posted before is, that the original meaning of wereld/wralda/world is "mensenleeftijd" or the "age of man".

Mens = man = wer

Leeftijd = age = alda

world

O.E. woruld, worold "human existence, the affairs of life," also "the human race, mankind," a word peculiar to Germanic languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of "age of man," from P.Gmc. *wer "man" (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old).

Originally "life on earth, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," sense extended to "the known world," then to "the physical world in the broadest sense, the universe" (c.1200).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

Just look at all those different forms:

woruld - werold - warld - wereld - verold - weralt - world

And the Old Frisian dictionary uses both wrald as warld for world; apparently the vowel next to the -w- was not that important and it easily changed order with the -r-

.

I don't buy it.

If the OLB is correct then Fryan should be the root words for all other languages.

Every wara, wêr, wêra word in the OLB means keeper of some sort - this goes through to 'defenders' - of the Waraburgt - citadel/defence tower

10. Every year one hundred of the defenders shall return to their homes, and those that may have been wounded shall remain in the citadels.

10. Fon thissa wêrar skilun jêrlikes hvndred to bek kêra. Thach send thêr svme vrlaemth wrden, sa mügon hja vpper burch bilywa hjara êlle lêva long.

Man is manna variations - it makes no sense that WRALDA/WARALDEN OLMAI is anything but based in wara as keeper as well.

werra in Frisian means worse. I don't buy this as the true etymology of warrior at all.

The etymology for warrior is a shambles imo http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guerra#Latin

The obvious answer is that a warrior is a defender, a keeper - a wêra

You have alda hêrmannen translated as warriors in English - hêrmannen is actually 'army men' - the phrase is old army men, which may be warriors but warriors were actually wêra's and not old army men.

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Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct.

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...82&lemma=waerde

http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=oord

http://nl.wikipedia....aard_(landschap)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward

Some OLB fragments with WRD:

THÁ KÉMON THÁ LANDWÉRAR UT ALLE WRDA WÉI

THRVCH MIN FOLK BEN IK KÉREN TO GRÉVETMAN OVIRA LINDA WRDA

THA WALDA THÉRA LINDA WRDA WÉRON MÉST WÉI

NÉI THA WRDUM FON STÁVERE ÀND THÀT ALDERGA

TO MIDNE FONET FÉST.FÍRJA KÉM NÉVIL TO HULLANDE VSA WRDA IN THIKKE THJUSTERNISE

SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE WRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA

THÁ GOSA FALLEN WAS THÁ WILDON THA LJUD FON ALLE WRDA ÉNE OTHERE MODER KJASA

THENE OTHERA SVJARING NÉI MANNA.GARDA.WRDA.

MANNA.GARDA.WRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK. MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN. MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN.

DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA BY HJARA LJUDA ROND

THAT ALD ÀND JONG UT ALLE WRDUM WÉI KÉMOM

MIN TÁT HETH SKRÉVEN HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND.

LINDA.HÉM IS JETA WÉI. THA LINDA.WRDA FAR EN DÉL

Varieties of LJUDWERD:

Ljuwert [hidde/16]; 1256 CE

Ljudwerd [liko/23]; 803 CE

Ljudwardja [113/25-26] ca. 300 BCE

Ljvdwérd [143/21] ca. 250 BCE

Ljvwrd [143/22] idem

Ljvwerde [206/11] ca. 50 BCE

The following list of toponyms also demonstrates how Newfrisian spelling is degenerating (changing D into T):

Dutch/ Oldfrisian spelling VS "Nyfrysk":

Britswerd - Britswert

Burgwerd - Burgwert

Cornwerd - Koarnwert

Hartwerd - Hartwert

Jorwerd - Jorwert

Kimswerd - Kimswert

Leeuwarden - Ljouwert

Rewerd - Rewert

Tjerkwerd - Tsjerkwert

Wieuwerd - Wiuwert

Ward (fortification)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search

In fortifications, a bailey or ward refers to a courtyard enclosed by a curtain wall.

Stavoren's ward

Linda's ward

Manna Garda ward

Wards can be arranged in sequence along a hill (as in a spur castle), giving an upper ward and lower ward. They can also be nested one inside the other, as in a concentric castle, giving an outer ward and inner ward.[1] On the other hand, Tower houses lack an enclosed ward.

The most important and prestigious buildings, such as the great hall and the keep or bergfried, were usually located in the inner ward of the castle. Nonetheless, there are a few castles where the keep is outside the inner ward, such as Château de Dourdan and Flint Castle. Lower or outer wards often held less important structures, such as stables, if there was not enough space in the inner ward. Outer wards could also be largely defensive in function, without significant buildings. In the concentric castles of the military orders, such as Krak des Chevaliers or Belvoir, the inner ward resembled a cloistered monastery, while the outer ward was little more than a narrow passage between the concentric enceintes. In general, wards could have any shape, including irregular or elongated ones, when the walls followed the contour lines of the terrain where the castle was sited. Rectangular shapes are very common (as in castra and quadrangular castles).

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Posted (edited)

(reply to your second to last post)

And where does the OLB tell us there were no local dialects in their European empire (ie not their colonies)?

And you are doing your best to drag modern Finnish into the equation, but you don't want me to use the language of ancient peoples who should be closely related to them.

Btw, I have no problems with that alternative etymology for 'warrior'.

,

Edited by Abramelin

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wara-ed

defend-ed

ward as fortifications imo comes from the terms for defending oneself.

The keepers of the towers were the defenders - the defence came from the walling of the waraburcht, the wards.

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(reply to your second to last post)

And where does the OLB tell us there were no local dialects in their European empire (ie not their colonies)?

And you are doing your best to drag modern Finnish into the equation, but you don't want me to use the language of ancient peoples who should be closely related to them.

Btw, I have no problems with that alternative etymology for 'warrior'.

,

Find in the OLB what WR would mean then, that will equate to how it is used in the name WRALDA.

Good.

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Posted (edited)

I use a dictionary, and the English 'ward' has a confusing number of sometimes rather different meanings. That's why I said I preferred 'quarter' or 'district'.

The Dutch 'waard' which Otharus wanted instead of 'oord' means 'low lying lands'.

'Oord' means nothing but district, quarter, area or place.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I use a dictionary, and the English 'ward' has a confusing number of sometimes rather different meanings. That's why I said I preferred 'quarter' or 'district'.

The Dutch 'waard' which Otharus wanted instead of 'oord' means 'low lying lands'.

'Oord' means nothing but district, quarter, area or place.

.

I just showed you what ward was, it's fortifications of a wall type, makes up the yard, or garda. The warder again is the watcher, because it all comes from WARA. The defence tower, where you had watchtowers.

war-d-er

, afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Wärter; ne. warden, keeper; Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s.

germ. *warda-, *wardaz, st. M. (a), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; germ. *wardu-,

*warduz, st. M. (u), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; vgl. idg. *øer- (8), V., gewahren,

achtgeben, Pokorny 1164?

war-d-ia

5, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. warten, wahrnehmen, beachten, sorgen, für; ne.

care (V.), keep (V.), watch

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Find in the OLB what WR would mean then, that will equate to how it is used in the name WRALDA.

Good.

LOL, we are busy explaining words of the OLB with the dictionaries we can find.

You know, I have like 40 dictionaries of all kinds of languages, from ancient Assyrian to Swahili. And, one Teach Yourself book about the Finnish language (also one of many). I will find something.

And 'wralda' shows up in the OLB, not only as the name of a god, but also as 'world'.

So there we should look for what WR might mean. And we did.

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I just showed you what ward was, it's fortifications of a wall type, makes up the yard, or garda. The warder again is the watcher, because it all comes from WARA. The defence tower, where you had watchtowers.

war-d-er

, afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Wärter; ne. warden, keeper; Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s.

germ. *warda-, *wardaz, st. M. (a), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; germ. *wardu-,

*warduz, st. M. (u), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; vgl. idg. *øer- (8), V., gewahren,

achtgeben, Pokorny 1164?

war-d-ia

5, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. warten, wahrnehmen, beachten, sorgen, für; ne.

care (V.), keep (V.), watch

Exactly. That is why I think the English 'ward' or the Dutch 'waard' is not a good alternative for what Ottema used, "oord".

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Posted (edited)

LOL, we are busy explaining words of the OLB with the dictionaries we can find.

You know, I have like 40 dictionaries of all kinds of languages, from ancient Assyrian to Swahili. And, one Teach Yourself book about the Finnish language (also one of many). I will find something.

And 'wralda' shows up in the OLB, not only as the name of a god, but also as 'world'.

So there we should look for what WR might mean. And we did.

Oh geez. I'm off to bed.

Yeah, you keep looking.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Oh geez. I'm off to bed.

Yeah, you keep looking.

Sleep well. I haven't slept for 3 days.

Good we have UM to keep us occupied, lol.

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Exactly. That is why I think the English 'ward' or the Dutch 'waard' is not a good alternative for what Ottema used, "oord".

More like Ottema's oord is not a good translation for the OLB WRDE, English ward is perfect, because that is what it is. Hospital ward, it's simply a walled off area, which the original form can be seen in the form of castle wards.

Night.

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Posted (edited)

More like Ottema's oord is not a good translation for the OLB WRDE, English ward is perfect, because that is what it is. Hospital ward, it's simply a walled off area, which the original form can be seen in the form of castle wards.

Night.

What makes you think those areas were walled off?

And let me repeat: Otharus' "waard" means 'low lying land'. And even 'island'.

Can't help it.

Try 'uiterwaard'. We have zillions of those here.

http://nl.wikipedia....wiki/Uiterwaard

Same Wiki in English:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Floodplain

"uiter" means nothing but "outside the river".

And these 'uiterwaards' get flooded during high water levels of the river.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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What makes you think those areas were walled off?

What makes you think those areas were walled off?

And let me repeat: Otharus' "waard" means 'low lying land'.

Can't help it.

Try 'uiterwaard'. We have zillions of those here.

.

It created a walled area.

Low lying lands, you sure.....?

Waard is connected to ward and the areas were actually protected, a kind of protection area to live.

waard m. (plural waarden, diminutive waardje)

  1. An innkeeper, publican
  2. A landlord, host
  3. (obsolete) The master of the household; a husband
  4. (obsolete) A protector, lord

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/waard

Etymology 3

From Middle Dutch waert, weert, wert. Cognate with Old English waroþ.[1]

[edit] Noun

waard ? (plural waarden, diminutive waardje)

  1. A holm, holme, area surrounded by rivers
  2. A type of foreland, outside a local system of dikes
  3. A dwelling mound

----------

weert

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary

Jump to: navigation, search

[edit] Dutch

[edit] Pronunciation

[edit] Verb

weert

  1. second- and third-person singular present indicative of weren.
  2. plural imperative of weren.

-----------

Related to weren:

Dutch

[edit] Pronunciation

[edit] Etymology 1

From Old Dutch *werien, from Proto-Germanic *warjanan.

[edit] Verb

weren (weak in -d)

  1. to keep out

-------------------

Originally from weren - to keep out - just what the wards did, ward being a form of wara/wêra - keeper/defence.

Now this time I'm really off to sleep.

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I am sure, but I use the Dutch etymology site.

And it's obvious you don;t know what you are reading for your first quote about waard has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

OK, someone calling.

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I am sure, but I use the Dutch etymology site.

And it's obvious you don;t know what you are reading for your first quote about waard has nothing to do with what we are discussing here.

OK, someone calling.

Surrounded by dykes, is probably why they are called waards. Provide an etymology for your Dutch word then.

http://geerts.com/dordrecht-elisabethflood.htm

Note in that article it says waards are low lying areas WITH DYKES AROUND. That is the key you are missing. IT KEPT OUT THE SEA. Back to weren, to keep out.

I know more than you give me credit for.

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