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Abramelin

Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

6,100 posts in this topic

If you agree with me that Old English must have been very similar to Old Frisian (or Old Dutch if you like) of the early middle ages, then you will know that the syntax has changed.

You speak of Old-English as if it was one uniform language, but there must have been countless varieties.

We know that many words were similar or the same, but I don't know how that is with syntax.

Same with the Scandinavian languages: similar vocabulary, but slightly different syntax.

When Willibrord and Bonifacius came here to convert the 'heathens' they didn't need an interpretor. Why? because they must have spoken the same language.

They may very well have spoken several languages, just like us.

When I travel, I usually don't need an interpreter either.

Edited by Otharus

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You speak of Old-English as if it was one uniform language, but there must have been countless varieties.

We know that many words were similar or the same, but I don't know how that is with syntax.

They may very well have spoken several languages, just like us.

When I travel, I usually don't need an interpreter either.

Yeah, they used Latin to talk with the Frisians, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yeah, they used Latin to talk with the Frisians, lol.

My statement was serious, your reply is not.

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My statement was serious, your reply is not.

My reply was serious.

You are talking about 1200 years ago. What do you think, that people back then had the means and opportunity to study many different languages, like we have now?

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My reply was serious.

When you "laugh out loud", you don't make that impression.

You are talking about 1200 years ago. What do you think, that people back then had the means and opportunity to study many different languages, like we have now?

Since there has always been intercultural travelling and trading, there will always have been people who spoke more than their own mother-tongue. That does not mean they "studied" languages the way we do at school or university.

Some 2000 years ago the Romans traded with the Frisians.

My father did not learn foreign languages at school, but his uncle, who had lived in the Dutch Indies, taught him some Malayan. During his military service in New Guinea (now West Papua) in the fifties, he learnt to communicate (basics) with tribal Papuas, and in recent years I heard him communicate (basics) with Chinese and Japanese people (he worked at the Zuiderzeemuseum in Enkhuizen). He never did any language-course.

His great-grandfather (2nd half 19th century) traded cattle with dealers from London and the US. He spoke English, without ever having learnt it at school.

Edited by Otharus

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To start with something very off-topic... your father and my uncle could very well have known eachother. My uncle served in Hollandia (New Guinea) if I remember well (1948 or a year or so later) and eventually married an Indonesian woman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayapura

http://nl.wikipedia....landia_(plaats)

==

Of course people can study languages on their own, just by being in close contact with the people whose language you want to learn.

And the ex I always keep moaning about speaks 3 or 4 languages, and she never learned them in school, but apparently she picks it up very easily.

The reason I said Old English must have been very close if not almost similar to ancient Frisian (Old Frisian is from the 12th century) is because of this:

Discovering the Dutch: On Culture and Society of the Netherlands - Emmeline Besamusca, Jaap Verheul

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

From page 89:

The absence of a serious language barrier between Anglo-Saxons, Frisians and Saxons, who were able to understand one another without too many problems, allowed the use of insular texts such as these in the conversion of Germanic-speaking pagans on the continent.

This is from a forum (by a "Espadachin"):

As for historicity, Frisian and English used to be mutually intelligible. There are stories of English missionaries (Sts. Boniface and Willibrord, notably) coming to Frisia in the 7th and 8th centuries, and they would be understood perfectly well by the people there. English (or better, Anglo-Saxon) was originally from Oost-Friesland and south Danmark anyways.

Reply by "Frank06":

I am inclined to believe you, but this is very hard to verify, any which way. The first (extensive) texts in Frisian date only from the 13th century (Old(!) Frisian).

So we don't have any contemporary material that can be used to compare Old-English (Anglo-Saxon, if you want) and, well, Pre-Old-Frisian from the 7th or 8th century.

Reply by Espadachin:

Admittedly there aren't texts to compare for Old Frisian/Anglo-Saxon, I'm just going off of what was in Bede's History of the English Church (written 8th century) as well as Letters of St. Boniface. There was another story in the Life of Wilfred, an English saint from Northumbria, where he was shipwrecked and landed on the Frisian coast. It said that he had no problem understanding the Frisian, as the language was very close.

I also recall a story about St. Boniface (also originally an Anglo-Saxon) speaking with Frisian pirates near Dokkum (in Fryslan), shortly before they cut his head off.

http://forum.wordref...31924&langid=13

So I reasoned that if Old English was very similar to pre-Old Frisian, why is the language used in Frisian law texts from many ages later so different, and why is the language used in the OLB so similar to these later Frisian texts?

The OLB language should have been close(r ) to Old English.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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The OLB language should have been close(r ) to Old English.

I donot agree. It is closest to some of the local and ancient dialects from Westflanders to Northfriesland.

That there are not many written records of those dialects, does not mean they did not exist.

But they had to exist, as - by unwritten laws of evolution (of consciousness ~ bewustzijn ~ BIWOSTWARA) - all dialects obviously have a shared origin.

If the language, stories and laws of the OLB were invented by 19th century masterminds, 'Fryan' is an insanely good reconstruction of a proto-Frisian, aboriginal language.

Unprecedented and yet unchallenged.

A good movie about it will grow into a historical, hysterical hype.

It will spread into the WWW like a free radical.

If that is what Wralda wants.

Edited by Otharus

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Post something from early medieval Westflanders or Northfriesland sources.

You can't because there is no source that old.

==

The OLB language is too close to 12th century Frisian texts.

Old English is supposed to be almost the same as Pre-Old-Frisian. And it looks nothing like the OLB language.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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A good movie about it will grow into a historical, hysterical hype.

That's all you got?

If that is what Wralda wants.

Religious after all, eh?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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So I reasoned that if Old English was very similar to pre-Old Frisian, why is the language used in Frisian law texts from many ages later so different, and why is the language used in the OLB so similar to these later Frisian texts?

The OLB language should have been close(r ) to Old English.

.

Do you mean in the way some of the words sound more Dutch than English or something? Like they have reached the below process too early?

However, despite their common origins, Anglic and Frisian have become very divergent, largely due to the heavy Norse and French influences on English and similarly heavy Dutch and Low German influences on Frisian. The result is that Frisian has now far more in common with Dutch and the adjacent Low German dialects, bringing it into the West Germanic dialect continuum, whereas Anglic has stronger North Germanic and non-Germanic influences than the languages on the mainland.

http://en.wikipedia....isian_languages

Edited by The Puzzler

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Do you mean in the way some of the words sound more Dutch than English or something? Like they have reached the below process too early?

However, despite their common origins, Anglic and Frisian have become very divergent, largely due to the heavy Norse and French influences on English and similarly heavy Dutch and Low German influences on Frisian. The result is that Frisian has now far more in common with Dutch and the adjacent Low German dialects, bringing it into the West Germanic dialect continuum, whereas Anglic has stronger North Germanic and non-Germanic influences than the languages on the mainland.

http://en.wikipedia....isian_languages

I mean that Old English is very similar to pre-Old Frisian, and so much that those missionaries had no problems talking with the Frisians.

That changed centuries after, when the late medieval Frisians used a language similar to the OLB....

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Religious after all, eh?

nur begeistert

you should check the meaning of "religion"

believing in the world (or the origin of consciousness) is not the same as worshiping an old book

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you have come to know

how much superior poverty without a master

is to being a slave with wealth

From Boudicca's speech, as translated from 'Epitome' 62.3.1 by Cassius Dio,

as read in 'Boudicca', by Marguerite Johnson (2012), p.84.

p.35

"In Roman times, the territory of the Iceni included Norfolk and part of Suffolk; to their west were the Corieltauvi, to the south, the Trinovantes and Catuvellauni (...). During migrations in the sixth century BC from Belgium and Holland across the North Sea, northwest Europeans established communities along the Norfolk rivers and marshes with peaceful integration of the indigenous population."

Boudica (alternative spelling: Boudicca), also known as Boadicea and known in Welsh as Buddug (d. AD 60 or 61) was queen of the British Iceni tribe who led an uprising against the occupying forces of the Roman Empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

~ ~ ~

Iceni, from Belgium and 'Holland', 6th century BCE, that sounds like 'our' people, the Fryans or proto-Frisians.

Queen Boudicca could easily have been a character from the OLB.

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you have come to know

how much superior poverty without a master

is to being a slave with wealth

From Boudicca's speech, as translated from 'Epitome' 62.3.1 by Cassius Dio,

as read in 'Boudicca', by Marguerite Johnson (2012), p.84.

p.35

"In Roman times, the territory of the Iceni included Norfolk and part of Suffolk; to their west were the Corieltauvi, to the south, the Trinovantes and Catuvellauni (...). During migrations in the sixth century BC from Belgium and Holland across the North Sea, northwest Europeans established communities along the Norfolk rivers and marshes with peaceful integration of the indigenous population."

Boudica (alternative spelling: Boudicca), also known as Boadicea and known in Welsh as Buddug (d. AD 60 or 61) was queen of the British Iceni tribe who led an uprising against the occupying forces of the Roman Empire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica

~ ~ ~

Iceni, from Belgium and 'Holland', 6th century BCE, that sounds like 'our' people, the Fryans or proto-Frisians.

Queen Boudicca could easily have been a character from the OLB.

Yes, fierce with a sword and tall like Adela herself.

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According to the OLB itself, people (those who were banned from Fryan lands) were resettled in Britain, the Fryan penal colony. And that was before 2194 BC.

Otharus (and welcome back, btw!), you will remember what I posted in the OLB thread on the Historum site, about the Irish knowing about the ancient Frisians ("Fresen"), sometimes equalling them with the Fomorians (pirates)?

I posted a whole and long list about how they were known in ancient Ireland.

Maybe I will repost that whole list here.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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I found something else to ponder about...

It's always good to let some topic rest for a while and focus on other topics. By that you sometimes encounter stories and facts you would never have taken into consideration if you had stayed with the original topic.

I have been reading a lot about Göbekli Tepe and the Haran area between Turkey and Syria.

Then I found this:

Etymology

From the Semitic root Q-D-Š, meaning Holy. Kadesh means "the holy city" in reference to the followers of Qetesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadesh

If you read up on it, you'll find out that Kadesh went into oblivion after the Sea Peoples had invaded the area.

Kadesh..... it could have been a Phoenician city.

My point: we have been discussing the OLB city of "Kadik" many times here.

The original Phoenician name of the city was "Gadera" or names similar.

Later - it is said - the Romans changed it into "Gades", and much later it became "Cadiz", or "Kadix" as it was spelled in medieval times.

My point: couldn't refugees/emigrants from Phoenician (?) Kadesh have renamed Gadera after they arrived there?

Or was it an already existing alternative Phoenician name for the city, based on their goddess with that name?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Kadesh

Kadik

Gadera

Gades

Cadiz

Kadix

Yes, it looks like those names might refer to the same place.

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According to the OLB itself, people (those who were banned from Fryan lands) were resettled in Britain, the Fryan penal colony. And that was before 2194 BC.

413px-Britain.north.peoples.Ptolemy.jpg

Who were the Taexali and is their tribal name related to the island in North Holland?

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According to the OLB itself, people (those who were banned from Fryan lands) were resettled in Britain, the Fryan penal colony.

And that was before 2194 BC.

What fascinates me, is that they migrated in the 6th century BC, the time when the first version of the OLB would have been compiled.

If we believe the OLB, this was a time of threat (hence the copying of texts from citadels), so fleeing elsewhere would have made sense.

(and welcome back, btw!)

thanks :-)

(moving to Leuven this week)

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... the Taexali and is their tribal name related to the island in North Holland?

Probably, but not confirmed by any source, as far as I know.

I also suspect a relation to Toxandria/ Taxandria and Thessaloniki .

But what relation, and if there's any evidence for it, I don't know.

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413px-Britain.north.peoples.Ptolemy.jpg

Who were the Taexali and is their tribal name related to the island in North Holland?

I think I better repost that list I talked about.....

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Menapii: a Germanic tribe living to the south west of the Frisii; spoke a language closely related to Frisian as we can see by the Lord's Prayer in the Menapian language in Overwijn's book about the OLB; probably moved to Ireland;

Chauci: a Germanic tribe to the east of the Frisians; were very civilized according to Tacitus and were being decribed almost like the OLB describes the Fryans; but they were also sea raiders and often hooked up with the Frisians; linguistic indications they went raiding and settling as far as Iberia ("Kaukaioi"); probably moved to Ireland too and were there the neighbours of the Menapii;

Parisi: a Celtic/Germanic (?) tribe living near the Seine; some say their name means Frisii; probably moved to Yorkshire, England. The Parisi in England had a different culture from the surrounding tribes (and in England their name is also explained as "of the wetlands, low pastures", "herdsmen", "commanders");

Belgae: a group of Celtic/Germanic (?) tribes living in present day Belgium and Northern France; probably they were the Fir Bolg of the Irish legends; the Parisi were probably one of them (??);

Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...);

Firaesi: a tribe living in Scandia which was an island according to Ptolemy but was actually the southern part of Sweden:

The Firaesi (Latinization) or Phiraisoi (original Greek) are a people listed in Ptolemy’s Geography (2.10).

Ptolemy’s view of the region is not very precise, but he places them on the east side of what he believed to be an island, Scandia. The presence of the Goutai, or Goths, in the center, identifies Scandia fairly certainly as the southern portion of the Scandinavian peninsula. As to whether the east of it was the east coast of Sweden or the coast of Finland opposite, the latter is perhaps too remote for detailed knowledge by Ptolemy or his sources.

There is in fact a possible Germanic derivation of Phiraisoi. They are in the same region as the Favonae, who may have been residents of Småland. Old Norse and Old Icelandic firar, Old English firas, are fairly close to Firaesi and mean “men, human beings” or “Volk” in German. As it happens, Uppland was traditionally divived in Folkland, four provinces, which lost their jurisdictional importance in 1296.

Koebler’s Old Norse Etymological Database in the Indo-European Etymological Database online at Leiden University gives a Proto-Indo-European root of *perkwus, becoming Germanic *ferhwioz by Grimm's Law. The root meaning is “oak”, but the oak was regarded as a symbol of hardness, toughness and strength (see also Harudes).

With regard to people it means “life force” or especially “power”, in the sense of the collective power of the folk. It would be a descriptive epithet of the *teuta-, “tribe, people”. This connotation is probably not devoid of a military sense, as the root went into Hittite, a very early branch of Indo-European, as “army”. Uppland then would have been a densely populated and at the time fairly conservative remnant of Indo-European culture. If the Indo-European penetration of Europe can be regarded as a very slow invasion, its Schwerpunkt, or “heavy point”, came to rest in Uppland.

The Firaesi are not mentioned elsewhere in history, perhaps because of language changes and the preference of folk for firar. More information is undoubtedly to be gleaned from archaeology.

Firaesi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wikipedia_icon.gif Firaesi

According to accepted history, the Frisians originally came from the area of Denmark and Southern Sweden (around 1700 BC they went on the move). Does their name mean "men, folk, human beings, the people"? Also think about the Irish "Fir" which means the same...

Old Prussians: a Baltic tribe, aka "Aesti" according to Tactitus. Lived in an area near the "Friesisches Haff", Poland; spoke a language called "Pruteni" which was, again according to Tacitus, the same language as spoken in Brittain by the "Pretani". Now Google "Pruteni", and see where you end up, lol. Yes, Rutheni, Russ..

I once fabricated an original name for the Proto Frisians, "Phruisii", and suggested that from that name the others developed: Frisii, Fireasi, Prusi, Parisi (and there are those who'd like to add: Farsi or Parsi..).

4026d1342629726-oera-linda-book-friezen_spread.jpg

Edited by Abramelin

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Btw, the list is based on what I have posted in this thread, part -1- and -2- .

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Otharus (and welcome back, btw!), you will remember what I posted in the OLB thread on the Historum site, about the Irish knowing about the ancient Frisians ("Fresen"), sometimes equalling them with the Fomorians (pirates)?

OK, here are those posts (too complicated to copy and paste because of the different way to embed links on that site) :

http://www.historum....tml#post1139866

http://www.historum....tml#post1137698

D'aithneoinn do ghlór as seo go Tír-fo-Thoinn

Is sheasfainn sa tsneachta is tú ag gabháil fhoinn go binn

Éist, a stór, tá ceol ar an ngaoth

Is casfar le chéile sinn roimh dhul faoi don ghrian.

I’d know your voice from here to the land beneath the waves, *

and would stand in the snow while you sang a tune sweetly.

Listen, o darling, there’s music on the wind,

And we will meet before the going down of the sun.

[* poetic name for the Netherlands]

http://www.historum.com/speculative-history/36777-oera-linda-book-46.html#post1140718

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Taexali: a group of very probably Frisian settlers (lived near a bay in Scotland that was once called Frisian Bay); did they come from Texel (old name Texla) after the flood in 360 or 350 BC, a flood mentioned by the Frisian historiographer Schotanus? Same could be true for the aforementioned tribes. Some of their hillforts were called "Laws" (think OLB citadel on Texland; the etymology of Texla is based on a Germanic word for direction, "to the right". But 'right' has also another meaning aside from a direction...);

There is today a place in Scotland called Freswick, which apparently does mean "Frisian Bay":

http://books.google....an Bay"&f=false

It's in the far north of Scotland though:

240px-Caithness_UK_location_map.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freswick

Edited by lilthor

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